David Morales - The fresh face of innocence

[Tim Gratz]

No one had yet answered my specific question:

"Does anyone know of a case in which someone admitted murdering someone whose death had previously been reported as a heart attack, and how the confessor said he did it?"

The case was being investigated by the Senate at around the time of the Kennedy assassination. Stephen Bandera, an anti-Communist Eastern European had died of an apparent heart attack in the late 1950s. Several years later a man came forward and admitted that, acting for the KGB, he had killed Bandera with a devise provided by the KGB that simulated a death by a heart attack. A fomer congressman from Wisconsin, acting as a lawyer, was representing Bandera's family in European court proceedings. Within a month or so before the assassination the lawyer wrote to President Kennedy warning of the possibility of KGB assassins in the U.S. (He was upset because in his opinion the Kennedy State Department was attempting to "hush up" the investigation of this KGB assassination, which he thought deserved a complete inquiry).

The CIA revealed much of its weaponry to the Church Committee. But there has never been any evidence that I have seen that any body other than the KGB had a weapon that could cause deaths that would appear to be heart attacks.

So when we consider deaths by heart attacks that are appear to be premature, perhaps we should remember the name Stephen Bandera.

Edited January 30, 2005 by Tim Gratz

[Shanet Clark]

J. Edgar Hoover died of a heart attack in 1973 with no previous

medical heart condition...

it was widely rumored that something cardio-toxic

was put into his scented hankies...

[Dawn Meredith]

J. Edgar Hoover died of a heart attack in 1973 with no previous

medical heart condition...

it was widely rumored that something cardio-toxic

was put into his scented hankies...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Tim: I have noticed that in most cases people do not confess to a murder, so the likihood of (1.) a confesion by (2.) a person who has murdered someone by (3.) causing a heart attack is highly improbable. Perhaps we may one day get a deathbed confession from such a person, but generally people who have confessed to any "murder" in this case are fruitloops like Easterling (Hunry Hurt's Reasonable Doubt), or Mob liars (IMHO). But, as you have wisely noted, many witnesses in this case end up suddenly dying of "heart attacks".

Shanet: Hoover also had no autopsy. Very suspicious death, and it was in '72 right around the time of the Watergate breakin. I have my suspicions of who did it and why.

Dawn

[Chris Cox]

Shanet, just curious you bought something at auction? You drink beer out of? What kind of beer? That's important.

Just kidding. I bought a Frank Snepp book at a library sale once. I had just spoken to a friend of his and thought, hey here's a book for 50 cents. I opened it at home and out flew four pix of old photos from Vietnam. Heads on pikes and such, very heinous. I wonder if I bought someone's bad memories . Their final solution to the hell they fathomed after reading Snepp's book.

[Shanet Clark]

Chris

I know that was a minor personal thing, but I figured James would know about it.

(good India Pale Ale, by the way, is in the cup)

Do you know if Tosh is coming back? I hope so.

{{PS I'll drop by GTU this week and try to find that file}}

Dawn

OK, so who got to Hoover and why? CIA/MI for his files and silence?

Edited January 30, 2005 by Shanet Clark

[Shane O'Sullivan]

Hi James,

Great pictures of Morales, thanks. I can add one fuzzy one here, sorry for the quality, it's the one referred to in Fonzi's book where Morales identifies his job title in 1973.

The biography you posted was extremely interesting. I'd only read Carbajal and Walton's interviews in the books by Fonzi and Twyman. Interesting that Ruben seems to have changed his opinion of Morales' involvement in Dallas over time - he thought Morales was there in the interviews I read.

Do you know who wrote the biography and where and when it was published? I'd love to read more of Clines, Wilson and Wall on Morales. He's rarely covered except for the books I mentioned.

I'm also intrigued by Robert Walton's recollection in Twyman's book that Morales was in Los Angeles at the time of the Robert Kennedy assassination. Do you have any photos of Morales circa 1968?

Cheers,

Shane

[Ron Ecker]

J. Edgar Hoover died of a heart attack in 1973 with no previous

medical heart condition...

it was widely rumored that something cardio-toxic

was put into his scented hankies...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

In his book J. Edgar Hoover: The Man and His Secrets, Curt Gentry says that reporter Arthur Egan told the Ervin committee that "somebody in the Watergate thing murdered . . . J. Edgar Hoover," and another witness reportedly told the committee "that he had heard that some of the men later involved in the Watergate burglary, led by a man familiar with the security of the FBI director's home, had burglarized Hoover's residence and that a poison of the thiophospate genre was placed on Hoover's personal toilet articles, inducing a fatal heart attack" (pp. 727-728).

Also, 3 of the 6 FBI officials who died in 1977, when all 6 would likely have been called for questioning by the HSCA, died of "heart attacks."

Ron

[James Richards]

Great pictures of Morales, thanks. I can add one fuzzy one here, sorry for the quality, it's the one referred to in Fonzi's book where Morales identifies his job title in 1973. (Shane O'Sullivan)

Thanks, Shane. I might be able to find a better quality version of that image for you. I have it in my files somewhere and will have a hunt around.

The biography you posted was extremely interesting. I'd only read Carbajal and Walton's interviews in the books by Fonzi and Twyman. Interesting that Ruben seems to have changed his opinion of Morales' involvement in Dallas over time - he thought Morales was there in the interviews I read. (Shane O'Sullivan)

I am currently interviewing several guys from Morales' past. Interesting to note that Paul Carbajal (Ruben's brother) seemed to be closer to him than Ruben. Morales was tight with this clique of Mexicans who everyone ignored when background was being checked.

Do you know who wrote the biography and where and when it was published? I'd love to read more of Clines, Wilson and Wall on Morales. He's rarely covered except for the books I mentioned. (Shane O'Sullivan)

The biography came from an unpublished article written by Bryan Abas. Some of the background checks were done by Peggy Adler-Robohm.

I will have some more information soon as I have lined up an interview with a guy who served with Morales during his stint in Vietnam. He worked with Paul Ogg who was Morales' right hand man at the time.

I'm also intrigued by Robert Walton's recollection in Twyman's book that Morales was in Los Angeles at the time of the Robert Kennedy assassination. Do you have any photos of Morales circa 1968? (Shane O'Sullivan)

Sorry, Shane, nothing from 1968 but here is an interesting image showing Morales second from the left kneeling. Looks a bit like a scene from 'West Side Story'.

I too had heard rumours about the Big Indian being in L.A. but nothing to back it up.

James

Edited January 30, 2005 by James Richards

[Shanet Clark]

J. Edgar Hoover died of a heart attack in 1973 with no previous

medical heart condition...

it was widely rumored that something cardio-toxic

was put into his scented hankies...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

In his book J. Edgar Hoover: The Man and His Secrets, Curt Gentry says that reporter Arthur Egan told the Ervin committee that "somebody in the Watergate thing murdered . . . J. Edgar Hoover," and another witness reportedly told the committee "that he had heard that some of the men later involved in the Watergate burglary, led by a man familiar with the security of the FBI director's home, had burglarized Hoover's residence and that a poison of the thiophospate genre was placed on Hoover's personal toilet articles, inducing a fatal heart attack" (pp. 727-728).

Also, 3 of the 6 FBI officials who died in 1977, when all 6 would likely have been called for questioning by the HSCA, died of "heart attacks."

Ron

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Ron - thanks for the factual chapter and verse, very heavy.

When you know who the burglars really were, it makes sense...

Eugenio Martinez, Bernard Barker, Frank Sturgis, Howard Hunt, James McCord.

Did you know that in may 1972 Robert Bennett introduced Howard Hunt to Ralph Winte, head of sec urity for a Hughes Tool company, and Bennett and according to

James McCord "the Hughes enterprises were interested in gaining information in the possession of Greenspun, relating to Maheu-Hughes Lawsuits then pending."

So Bennett put the Liddy, Hunt and McCord team together with the

head of Hughes security right before the BUrglary, so here we have the

CIA and Hughes tool using Cuban mercenaries and CIA domestic ops

principles from 1963 to intercept Nevada materials, related to Maheu,

Hughes and obviously, Bennett, who explained to Winte and Hunt the

"commonality of interests" in 1972, May. And this is only McCord's

cunning spin on undeniable facts, ...........

The coup continued for a full thirteen years,

in 1972 when Hoover and the AD's had their hearts stopped,

Tell me this -- who knew more about the paramilitary joint

intelligence coup in Dallas than the top leadership of the FBI,

and who was the leadership of the actual functioning national

domestic law enforcement agency (that the CIA was always circumventing

and misleading about illegal domestic operations)

Structurally, the FBI SACs and ADs were hostile or "less committed"

witnesses and knowing parties, and the hostility between CIA and FBI

went very deep in the 1970s ..... the clean up went to the top,

to the men who had seen the evidence, suppressed the evidence for

Warren, Ford and Russell, but were not as committed to silence as the

joint agencies..........

Edited January 31, 2005 by Shanet Clark

[Shane O'Sullivan]

Thanks for the details on the biography and the photo, James. It seems Morales led an idyllic youth!

Your new leads sound fascinating. Are Paul Carbajal and Paul Ogg still alive? I'm trying to get a physical description of Morales for 1968 and what his movements were, so very interested in any colleagues of his in SE Asia. Look forward to hearing what you find out.

Shane

[Dawn Meredith]

Thanks for the details on the biography and the photo, James. It seems Morales led an idyllic youth!

Your new leads sound fascinating. Are Paul Carbajal and Paul Ogg still alive? I'm trying to get a physical description of Morales for 1968 and what his movements were, so very interested in any colleagues of his in SE Asia. Look forward to hearing what you find out.

Shane

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

____________________________

Ron:

Very interesting on the who did Hoover testimony.

As I said earlier to Shanet, my personal feelings at the time was that it was the same person who did Dorothy Hunt and tried to do Geroge Wallace. Nixon. My feeling was that Nixon and Hoover were becoming very competitive and Hoover was not used to anyone keeping the kind of tabs on everyone that he did, now suddenly Tricky Dick is doing the same thing and this irks Hoover. They argue, the prez decides it's time Hoover be "retired". Of course this was all PRE Watergate, and that little set -up by McCord and the boys really changes the mix there. So Ron, your response is most compelling....mmmm who killed Clyde's boyfriend? (Does this need its own thread )

Dawn

ps GREAT stuff on Morales, and just when I need it too. Thanx guys!!

[James Richards]

Thanks for the details on the biography and the photo, James. It seems Morales led an idyllic youth!

Your new leads sound fascinating. Are Paul Carbajal and Paul Ogg still alive? I'm trying to get a physical description of Morales for 1968 and what his movements were, so very interested in any colleagues of his in SE Asia. Look forward to hearing what you find out.

Shane

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hi Shane,

I don't know about Paul Ogg but Paul Carbajal is alive and kicking. Some of Morales' school chums have been very helpful in providing personality background.

One thing to ponder is that there seems to be something very strange with Morales official military background. He was supposedly rejected from military service in 1944 (at a time of war) and then accepted in 1946 (at a time of peace).

There is some indication that his phsyc evaluation suggested he was perfect for a new type of training where he became one of the first covert operators. His entry into the military in 1946 being a part of his cover.

Anyway, I am hoping to find out some more and will of course post any findings.

Cheers,

James

[Bill Sanders]

Jimmy,

Ogg was alive at least up until a couple of years ago.

Bill S

[James Richards]

Jimmy,

Ogg was alive at least up until a couple of years ago.

Bill S

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thanks, Bill.

I take it this is the same Paul Ogg who served in 1968 with C Company 2nd Battalion 5th Cavalry?

James

[Pat Speer]

It is interesting that Morales died so young of a heart attack, although such things do happen.

As you know, there were many people with possible connections to the assassination (witnesses or potential conspirators) who died of "heart attacks".

Does anyone know of a case in which someone admitted murdering someone whose death had previously been reported as a heart attack, and how the confessor said he did it?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

There is one VERY FAMOUS case where the hired assassin testified that his intent was to kill a foreign head of state with some pills, pills which were untraceable and would simulate a heart attack... Give up??? The assassin's name was Johnny Rosselli. The proposed victim's name was Fidel Castro. It seems our friends at Technical Services Division developed these abilities a long time ago, bringing up the question of just how many "heart attacks" in the years since were really "hits."

It kinda makes one wonder about Adlai Stevenson dropping dead on the street after criticizing Johnson and the Viet Nam War while in Paris. As I remember, Howard Hunt was in Paris at that time.

Edited February 28, 2005 by Pat Speer