Badgeman photos

[Alan Healy]

Finally, I see the Black Dog, I see the Badge (armband) Man,

but I fail to see how these are more compelling than the

CLASSIC GUNMAN tracking the limousine from the spot the blood was found...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It's a pity you cannot explain with visuals why you say that the gunman in Nix was "tracking" the limo.

Tracking would imply movement, movement which I do not see on this figure at all.

Alan

[Alan Healy]

Gary Mack has written you and said that Badge Man was always thought to be behind the fence. I have never heard it said in the research comminuity that he was anywhere else but behind the fence until you said it.

Gary has forgotten that he wrote twenty years ago that Badgeman was "immeadiately behind the wall", I have wrote back to him & maybe you can tell me when he replies.

Okay Gary just told me that he wrote what he did before he went on site to test it.

It does make sense to me now, I am begining to see that the Badgeman figure is just to small to be right behind the wall.

We have to do better than this though

it's just not good enough imo.

The most obious problem is that the MWKK camera man was not elevated high enough to have Badge Man's view over the wall. That is a common mistake made by those who go to that location and have failed to study the Badge Man more carefully from the direction that Moorman saw him. I also believe the camera man is a step or two too far South towards the street to be spot on.

The camera is also in front of the fence. Gary Mack has said that he tried to tell Nigel Turner of the mistake and that Turner ignored him.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thank you for clearing that up Gary & hopefully you'll be a bit sterner with the next "Turner" who comes along.

So does that mean we have no "look back" to Morman from the correct position?

Alan

Edited February 11, 2005 by Alan Healy

[Shanet Clark]

Alan, there are a number of online sites to view the

Nix film. The Classic gunman contracts and focuses,

is trained on, or 'tracks' the limousine.

His stance narrows, and he faces to his right as the limo passes.

He remains in place for quite a while, after Zapruder hops down.

If he is not at the break in the wall, he is foreshortened to there by the lens

which would place him back with the Landau Roof Coupe (British?) car

he is paired with. He can't be that far back because he is in front of the Pergola.

If he was back in the lot, he would have been too large,

if he is at the wall he is proper sized, but not seen in other photos.

If there had been return fire, which no witnesses claim, he would have been hit.

I am not happy with the suggestion that he is a shadow and light figure.

His extended right elbow is clearly beyond the wall.

NIX CLASSIC GUNMAN does appear to track the limo, from my viewing of it

.... or at least he stays pointed directly at the Limo (and therefore, Nix...)

[Bill Miller]

It's a pity you cannot explain with visuals why you say that the gunman in Nix was "tracking" the limo.

Tracking would imply movement, movement which I do not see on this figure at all.

Alan

That is not only an accurate observation you have made, Alan, but the classic gunman figure is still seen in the same place in the Bell film well after the assassination. I do not understand why some people do not see the significance in this.

Bill

[Bill Miller]

Okay Gary just told me that he wrote what he did before he went on site to test it.

It does make sense to me now, I am begining to see that the Badgeman figure is just to small to be right behind the wall.

We have to do better than this though

it's just not good enough imo.

I guess I should ask Andy and Debra to place a permenant reply of mine on these sites so you can read it daily so not to forget what I have said about this photograph. People come in all different shapes and sizes - Mike Brown is a husky man - Gordon Arnold was not. Tony is a very thin individual - Badge Man probably was stocky. As I have stated numerous times to you - the photograph was taken to see how people would stack up to one another (one where Arnold stood and the other behind the fence) and to see how that applied to the Badge Man images of Mack and White. I believe Arnold was about 5'10" and Badge Man was elevated above a 5' high fence. The photo told us what we needed to know at the time. We saw that actual people standing at a certain place above the knoll would produce the type of images we were seeing in Moorman's photograph. Your constantly complaining about a photo that doesn't give you the data you need when it was shot for another purpose altogether is ridiculous. I have recently talked with Dennis David about accompanying me to Dallas to see Groden and at that time I will conduct some experiments for you. I have also been told that another researcher may be joining me and it should be a productive trip. I will share the results with you when I get back.

Edited February 11, 2005 by Bill Miller

[Bill Miller]

I am not happy with the suggestion that he is a shadow and light figure.

His extended right elbow is clearly beyond the wall.

NIX CLASSIC GUNMAN does appear to track the limo, from my viewing of it

....  or at least he stays pointed directly at the Limo (and therefore, Nix...)

I admit that one having to realize that what looks like the right arm of a shooter was in fact an object back in the RR yard would put a damper on the classic gunman nonsense. If one wishes to continue to say that those light spots on the shelter wall is a gunman aiming a rifle at the motorcade, presumeably well after the shooting as well, then maybe explaining how so many witnesses across the street and the cycle riders and the SS didn't care to stop and address this villian? Are they all not looking in that direction where such a man with a rifle would at least arouse their curiosity? Or is it that those actually there saw the sun spots on the wall and didn't find them to be all that sinister.

Edited February 12, 2005 by Bill Miller

[Alan Healy]

Alan, there are a number of online sites to view the

Nix film. The Classic gunman contracts and focuses,

is trained on, or 'tracks' the limousine.

His stance narrows, and he faces to his right as the limo passes.

NIX CLASSIC GUNMAN does appear to track the limo, from my viewing of it

....  or at least he stays pointed directly at the Limo (and therefore, Nix...)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Shanet I apologise for editing your post but I have only a short time.

I will post an animation made from Grodens' "Assassination Films" asap & maybe you can point out to me what I'm missing.

Alan

[Alan Healy]

Okay Gary just told me that he wrote what he did before he went on site to test it.

It does make sense to me now, I am begining to see that the Badgeman figure is just to small to be right behind the wall.

We have to do better than this though

it's just not good enough imo.

I guess I should ask Andy and Debra to place a permenant reply of mine on these sites so you can read it daily so not to forget what I have said about this photograph. People come in all different shapes and sizes - Mike Brown is a husky man - Gordon Arnold was not. Tony is a very thin individual - Badge Man probably was stocky. As I have stated numerous times to you - the photograph was taken to see how people would stack up to one another (one where Arnold stood and the other behind the fence) and to see how that applied to the Badge Man images of Mack and White. I believe Arnold was about 5'10" and Badge Man was elevated above a 5' high fence. The photo told us what we needed to know at the time. We saw that actual people standing at a certain place above the knoll would produce the type of images we were seeing in Moorman's photograph. Your constantly complaining about a photo that doesn't give you the data you need when it was shot for another purpose altogether is ridiculous. I have recently talked with Dennis David about accompanying me to Dallas to see Groden and at that time I will conduct some experiments for you. I have also been told that another researcher may be joining me and it should be a productive trip. I will share the results with you when I get back.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The line-up photo of yours I posted is unusable, not only because of it's poor quality but it was not taken from the right place on Elm St & the characters in it are positioned incorrectly.

If you are planning another trip then maybe we should have the interested parties go over the details before you go, like now.

Alan

[Bill Miller]

The line-up photo of yours I posted is unusable, not only because of it's poor quality but it was not taken from the right place on Elm St & the characters in it are positioned incorrectly.

I am not sure what you are talking about in this instant for no "character" was more than a half of a step out of position left or right and the photo was taken from where Mary Moorman stood. (see below) As has been repeatedly said over and over again is that we were looking to see how real people would stack up to one another in our field of depth. We accomplished that!

If you are planning another trip then maybe we should have the interested parties go over the details before you go, like now.

Alan

I will post the dates that I will be in Dallas and those who are really interested can try and be there to particpate if they like. Of course, if the 16mm Nix print I have turned over to another party happens to allow us to see into the dark area, then it may answer a lot of questions once and for all.

Edited February 14, 2005 by Bill Miller

[Bill Miller]

The line-up photo of yours I posted is unusable, not only because of it's poor quality but it was not taken from the right place on Elm St & the characters in it are positioned incorrectly.

Taken from the wrong place on Elm Street ???

[Alan Healy]

The line-up photo of yours I posted is unusable, not only because of it's poor quality but it was not taken from the right place on Elm St & the characters in it are positioned incorrectly.

I am not sure what you are talking about in this instant for no "character" was more than a half of a step out of position left or right and the photo was taken from where Mary Moorman stood. (see below) As has been repeatedly said over and over again is that we were looking to see how real people would stack up to one another in our field of depth. We accomplished that!

If you are planning another trip then maybe we should have the interested parties go over the details before you go, like now.

Alan

I will post the dates that I will be in Dallas and those who are really interested can try and be there to particpate if they like. Of course, if the 16mm Nix print I have turned over to another party happens to allow us to see into the dark area, then it may answer a lot of questions once and for all.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Try alining the blow-up of yours I posted with the quality blow-up of Moorman5.

I could not do it(& it should be easy even for me) so I came to the conclusion your positioning was off & if it is only by a half foot, it's important.

Sure it looks good from over the road but looking at it closely tells me something is amiss, particulary around the points of the south wall.

As I won't be in Dallas, please give me the details of these experiments you are going to perform for me.

Alan

[Alan Healy]

Okay.

I just realised this morning that Badgeman was first thought to be behind the wall & not the fence.

By the time they filmed The Men who Killed Kennedy" however, he was pushed back behind the fence.

I'd like to know from Jack or Gary what made them do this.

Gary Mack has written you and said that Badge Man was always thought to be behind the fence. I have never heard it said in the research comminuity that he was anywhere else but behind the fence until you said it.

Here is the "look back" scene from Badgeman to the Moorman position taken from TMWKK.

Can anyone spot the mistake?

Alan

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The most obious problem is that the MWKK camera man was not elevated high enough to have Badge Man's view over the wall. That is a common mistake made by those who go to that location and have failed to study the Badge Man more carefully from the direction that Moorman saw him. I also believe the camera man is a step or two too far South towards the street to be spot on.

The camera is also in front of the fence. Gary Mack has said that he tried to tell Nigel Turner of the mistake and that Turner ignored him.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I am interested in knowing how you can tell from that frame from TMWKK that "the camera man is a step or two too far South towards the street to be spot on".

I always have trouble pinpointing the Moorman position in newer photos taken from the knoll area.

Care to teach us how it's done?

Alan

[Bill Miller]

Try alining the blow-up of yours I posted with the quality blow-up of Moorman5.

I could not do it(& it should be easy even for me) so I came to the conclusion your positioning was off & if it is only by a half foot, it's important.

Sure it looks good from over the road but looking at it closely tells me something is amiss, particulary around the points of the south wall.

Let me share what someone said who is in the plaza on a daily basis and knows Moorman's position probably better than anyone else ...

"Your recent picture is so close to the Polaroid that it's almost scary!

Gary"

As far as the South wall goes - place your mouse on the edges anywhere you like and let it run back and forth between photos. If there are any differences, then it is in the difference between camera lenses which I could do little about.

As I won't be in Dallas, please give me the details of these experiments you are going to perform for me.

The recreation images will not be created for you, but will be done with you in mind. I will position someone where Gordon Arnold stood and photograph him from each photographers view so they can be compared to the assassination record. I will even present the view that witnesses across the street and from the overpass had to this individual. I will present a photograph of what he would have looked like from in the street where the SS agents would have seen him from. I will eliminate the distance to the subject that the camera falsely shows us and use the zoom to match the distance that the naked eye sees. I will also get Robert to shoot that Shaw photo he took so long ago and photograph it looking back the other way from the Betzner location.

I also plan on shooting a photo from the Badge Man location as he is aiming towards the President as seen in Moorman's photograph. This will be done by aligning him precisely to where he is seen in Moorman's photo both left to right and up and down. Once that position is obtained - a photo will be taken looking back the other way. A stand will be placed in the street showing the elevation of Kennedy's head at the time Badge Man would have fired his shot. This will demonstrate to others what many of us already know from testing these views while spending countless hours in the plaza.

If you or anyone else have any other concerns or things you'd like to see, feel free to state what they are and we'll try and accomodate everyone.

Bill

[Guest Eugene B. Connolly]

Bill,

Your diagramme of the layout of the Grassy Knoll area was most helpful.

Have you any photographs of the area directly behind the picket fence?

What would Bowers have seen as he observed that area?

Also can you tell me what sort of surface did the area behind the picket fence have in 1963? Was it dirt covered or was it gravel covered or other?

I should appreciate your also keeping me in mind when you create the recreation images.

EBC

[Bill Miller]

Your diagramme of the layout of the Grassy Knoll area was most helpful.

Have you any photographs of the area directly behind the picket fence?

What would Bowers have seen as he observed that area?

Also can you tell me what sort of surface did the area behind the picket fence have in 1963? Was it dirt covered or was it gravel covered or other?

I should appreciate your also keeping me in mind  when you create the recreation images.

Once the forum gets to where we can put pics on it again I'll show you some views of what you are wanting to know. The RR yard had some gravel where the cars drove in, but where they parked was dirt as I recall. I know along the fence where suspected shooters had been was dirt because of their footprints left in the mud.