Lee Harvey Oswald

[Christopher T. George]

Hi all

It has been my thought that the Mafia rather than the CIA were behind the JFK assassination because of the Kennedys efforts to fight organized crime. However, given Lee Harvey Oswald's ties to the U.S. government, to Russia, and to anti-Cuba activities, does the Mafia scenario makes sense? Was Lee Harvey Oswald the type of patsy that the Mafia would have used, or does Oswald's strange background imply more that the assassination conspiracy mostly involved government agents? Thoughts anyone?

Best regards

Chris George

[James Richards]

Hi Chris,

I think that to try and assign any one particular group as responsible for the assassination will just run one around in circles trying to make things fit. I also submit that the murder and the cover-up were two different things.

IMO, individuals who had affiliations with different groups were behind it. Primarily the killing was personal with political opportunism playing a solid part.

Grand conspiracies don't make a whole lot of sense as keeping a handle on it would be nigh on impossible. The fact that the plotters have gotten away with this for 40 plus years says to me that the foundation of the plan was simple and containable.

FWIW.

James

[Harry J.Dean]

Hi Chris,

I think that to try and assign any one particular group as responsible for the assassination will just run one around in circles trying to make things fit. I also submit that the murder and the cover-up were two different things.

IMO, individuals who had affiliations with different groups were behind it. Primarily the killing was personal with political opportunism playing a solid part.

Grand conspiracies don't make a whole lot of sense as keeping a handle on it would be nigh on impossible. The fact that the plotters have gotten away with this for 40 plus years says to me that the foundation of the plan was simple and containable.

FWIW.

James

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hi, James

Is it not possible that a powerful political ideological and extremely

influencing 'well dug in group' with the aim of seising the powers of

government, including president Johnson et.al. after removing Kennedy

and ever since in total control of all foriegn and domestic policies of

the U.S. and the UN.?

QUOTE

People think of us as wholly or primarily an anti-Communist organization.

This causes many misunderstandings. The truth is that our fight with the

Communists is purely incidental to our longrange objectives.

The John Birch Society/Robert Welch

[James Richards]

Hi, James

Is it not possible that a powerful political ideological and extremely

influencing 'well dug in group' with the aim of seising the powers of

government, including president Johnson et.al. after removing Kennedy

and ever since in total control of all foriegn and domestic policies of

the U.S. and the UN.? (Harry Dean)

Hi Harry,

The simple answer to that is yes, it is possible.

Nice to see you posting again. Having someone like yourself who was involved in the political milieu of the time offering their thoughts to the forum is valuable indeed.

Cheers,

James

[Tim Gratz]

I have stated this opinion before on a different thread, Chris.

If LHO was working for US intelligence agencies, as I now believe he was, IMO that rules out a plot by the CIA as an instiution.

The Mafia could have used LHO as a patsy either to link the assassination to Cuba or because its operatives knew or suspected LHO was a US agent and therefore the government would not want an investigation.

So if LHO was linked to the US, his use by the Mafia makes perfect sense, IMO.

Thanks!

[Steve Mullard]

Tim

If you think the Cubans/Mafia were behind the assassination then who, in your opinion, has had the 'powerbase' to keep the lid on it for the last 40 years or so?

I am of course referring to the actions of certain individuals and/or groups in the tampering, alteration & falsification of witness statements, interviews, autopsy reports, photos & film taken in DP, forensic evidence, government documents, etc, etc....

Thanks

[Christopher T. George]

Hi Chris,

I think that to try and assign any one particular group as responsible for the assassination will just run one around in circles trying to make things fit. I also submit that the murder and the cover-up were two different things.

IMO, individuals who had affiliations with different groups were behind it. Primarily the killing was personal with political opportunism playing a solid part.

Grand conspiracies don't make a whole lot of sense as keeping a handle on it would be nigh on impossible. The fact that the plotters have gotten away with this for 40 plus years says to me that the foundation of the plan was simple and containable.

FWIW.

James

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hi James, Tim, Steve, et al.

Thank you all for your answers. I think James has a point that the cover-up and the murder could have been orchestrated by different organizations. I do think that following the murder of the President, there could have been very good reasons for entities in the government, CIA, and military, to not want certain things known about the assassination, either to protect the Kennedys or to hide information on how Oswald worked for the CIA, etc. These efforts could have been quite apart from the initial plot which might or might not have involved elements of the government.

I am learning more than I ever wanted to know about the assassination here. Thanks!

Best regards

Chris George

[Harry J.Dean]

Hi, James

Is it not possible that a powerful political ideological and extremely

influencing 'well dug in group' with the aim of seising the powers of

government, including president Johnson et.al. after removing Kennedy

and ever since in total control of all foriegn and domestic policies of

the U.S. and the UN.? (Harry Dean)

Hi Harry,

The simple answer to that is yes, it is possible.

Nice to see you posting again. Having someone like yourself who was involved in the political milieu of the time offering their thoughts to the forum is valuable indeed.

Cheers,

James

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

These were my kind of people, until Kennedy was actually killed.

The planned 'NEW AMERICANIST' scheme LDS/JBS with it's framework so cunningly in place for more than a half century, moved quickly {upon Kennedy's death} to consolidate and hold perpetual power over a bewildered government and a confused nation.

Who then can ever be tried or convicted for these awful crimes, when the guilty control, all legal and moral judgements, and dictate their own version of history?

{from my 1990 manuscript/book, YROJ Connection}

Harry

Edited June 17, 2005 by John Simkin

[Ron Ecker]

Anytime someone tries to argue that the CIA was not involved, I have to point out Rip Robertson and others at the corner of Main and Houston. Some will argue there is no evidence that it's him (and others) except for photographs. Well, thank God for the photographs, because IMO they show whom they show.

As for the argument that the CIA would not use Oswald as a patsy if he worked for U.S. intelligence, it looks to me like he was a perfect patsy. He went in and out of the Soviet Union as a "defector" with no one (except probably the Russians, who would have to be idiots otherwise) any the wiser. That was a pretty good acid test that the CIA could use this low-down Commie rat for anything it wanted to and get away with it. Who was going to investigate and uncover this no-good louse's U.S. intelligence status after the assassination and the patsy's prompt demise, a complicit J. Edgar Hoover with his Federal Bogus Investigations? These people were home free, been that way for 42 years and counting.

Ron

Edited June 17, 2005 by Ron Ecker

[Christopher T. George]

Anytime someone tries to argue that the CIA was not involved, I have to point out Rip Robertson and others at the corner of Main and Houston. Some will argue there is no evidence that it's him (and others) except for photographs. Well, thank God for the photographs, because IMO they show whom they show. 

As for the argument that the CIA would not use Oswald as a patsy if he worked for U.S. intelligence, it looks to me like he was a perfect patsy. He went in and out of the Soviet Union as a "defector" with no one (except probably the Russians, who would have to be idiots otherwise) any the wiser. That was a pretty good acid test that the CIA could use this low-down Commie rat for anything it wanted to and get away with it. Who was going to investigate and uncover this no-good louse's U.S. intelligence status after the assassination and the patsy's prompt demise, a complicit J. Edgar Hoover with his Federal Bogus Investigations? These people were home free, been that way for 42 years and counting.

Ron

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hi Ron

Thanks for making these points. I do find Oswald to be somewhat of a curiosity. On the one hand, a seeming loser who would apparently lack the wherewithal to be able to carry out the assassination alone, even if he could manipulate the rifle and get off the rounds in the time frame the Warren Commission dubiously claims, but at the same time a man so compromised by being a defector with a shady and complex history of contacts with the Russians and CIA. He seems an odd sort to be chosen for a patsy but then as you say, perhaps, absolutely perfect for that role. Hmmm...

All the best

Chris

[Harry J.Dean]

Hi, James

Is it not possible that a powerful political ideological and extremely

influencing 'well dug in group' with the aim of seising the powers of

government, including president Johnson et.al. after removing Kennedy

and ever since in total control of all foriegn and domestic policies of

the U.S. and the UN.? (Harry Dean)

Hi Harry,

The simple answer to that is yes, it is possible.

Nice to see you posting again. Having someone like yourself who was involved in the political milieu of the time offering their thoughts to the forum is valuable indeed.

Cheers,

James

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

These were my kind of people, until Kennedy was actually killed.

The planned 'NEW AMERICANIST' scheme LDS/JBS with it's framework so cunningly in place for more than a half century, moved quickly {upon Kennedy's death} to consolidate and hold perpetual power over a bewildered government and a confused nation.

Who then can ever be tried or convicted for these awful crimes, when the guilty control, all legal and moral judgements, and dictate their own version of history?

{from my 1990 manuscript/book, YROJ Connection}

Harry

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

More from my 1990 manuscript/book YROJ Connection to the JFK assassination.

Quotes from the 'action arm' of the LDS/JBS assassination conspiracy.

" Finally, and probably most important of all courses of action, we would put our

weight into the political scales in this country just as fast and far as we could"

"...unless we can have enough of an awakening in this country, and enough of

a rebellion against the appeasement policies our government outside, and it's

communizing policies inside America, the Communists are going to succeed"

" In the course of the awakening of America, there was a rapidly rising

identification of the policies of the Kennedy administration with the plans of

the Communists."

" For unless we can eventually,and in time,reverse by political action ,the

gradual surrender of the United States to Communism, the ultimate alternative

of reversal by military uprising is fearful to contemplate.

...we are opposing a conspiracy...our determination to overthrow an entrenched

tyranny is the very stuff of which revolutions are made."

"...the result of our failure in this fight most positively will be concentration camps,

or worse, and soon, we must all stick together or we will surely hang separately."

------------------- -------------------- -----------------

No honest conservative really believed that we were trying to do more than call

the liberal establishment communist sympathizers in order to replace liberalism with conservatism. But we were unknowingly being used to help install this present

system that is surreptitiously wielding every power of the U.S. government to

force the extention of a purely materialistic religious empire that is intent on

redesigning the entire world in it's own 'communal' image! An effort that includes

brute force and isolation of resistant individuals and entire nations.

Harry Dean, 1990.

Edited June 18, 2005 by Harry J.Dean

[Mark Knight]

Harry is making some very serious points in this thread that should NOT be overlooked. Great insight, Harry!

Oswald was [remember Oswald...the subject of this thread?] probably the PERFECT patsy. With his bio, he could be painted as the loser nutcase that the WC made him...OR he could have been positioned as the brave ex-Marine who went undercover, posing as a defector, at great personal risk, for his country. His story could have been played either way, depending upon the outcome of events in Dallas. A case could be made that Oswald held menial jobs so that he could respond to assignments at a moment's notice, and the sparse lifestyle he lived was consistent with the concept of keeping a relatively low profile...except within the areas in which he was SUPPOSED to draw attention, the Dallas Russian-exile community and the New Orleans Cuban-agitator communities. Can ANYONE paint a detailed picture of Oswald's daily life, outside of Marina's accounts? Co-workers knew little of him, as did neighbors. Friends were few, and none [that I've read of] were what I would call "close" friends.

So these facts allow Oswald to be a mere outline on an otherwise-blank canvas. And of the outline, it's truly difficult to determine what is the "real" Oswald and what is the "legend" one would need to create as an asset of an intelligence agency. He could be painted as either a patriot or a scoundrel, depending upon the needs of the hour. And it it THIS malleability of Oswald's image that renders him the TRUE enigma of the JFK assassination lore.

[Harry J.Dean]

Hi, James

Is it not possible that a powerful political ideological and extremely

influencing 'well dug in group' with the aim of seising the powers of

government, including president Johnson et.al. after removing Kennedy

and ever since in total control of all foriegn and domestic policies of

the U.S. and the UN.? (Harry Dean)

Hi Harry,

The simple answer to that is yes, it is possible.

Nice to see you posting again. Having someone like yourself who was involved in the political milieu of the time offering their thoughts to the forum is valuable indeed.

Cheers,

James

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

These were my kind of people, until Kennedy was actually killed.

The planned 'NEW AMERICANIST' scheme LDS/JBS with it's framework so cunningly in place for more than a half century, moved quickly {upon Kennedy's death} to consolidate and hold perpetual power over a bewildered government and a confused nation.

Who then can ever be tried or convicted for these awful crimes, when the guilty control, all legal and moral judgements, and dictate their own version of history?

{from my 1990 manuscript/book, YROJ Connection}

Harry

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

More from my 1990 manuscript/book YROJ Connection to the JFK assassination.

Quotes from the 'action arm' of the LDS/JBS assassination conspiracy.

" Finally, and probably most important of all courses of action, we would put our

weight into the political scales in this country just as fast and far as we could"

"...unless we can have enough of an awakening in this country, and enough of

a rebellion against the appeasement policies our government outside, and it's

communizing policies inside America, the Communists are going to succeed"

" In the course of the awakening of America, there was a rapidly rising

identification of the policies of the Kennedy administration with the plans of

the Communists."

" For unless we can eventually,and in time,reverse by political action ,the

gradual surrender of the United States to Communism, the ultimate alternative

of reversal by military uprising is fearful to contemplate.

...we are opposing a conspiracy...our determination to overthrow an entrenched

tyranny is the very stuff of which revolutions are made."

"...the result of our failure in this fight most positively will be concentration camps,

or worse, and soon, we must all stick together or we will surely hang separately."

------------------- -------------------- -----------------

No honest conservative really believed that we were trying to do more than call

the liberal establishment communist sympathizers in order to replace liberalism with conservatism. But we were unknowingly being used to help install this present

system that is surreptitiously wielding every power of the U.S. government to

force the extention of a purely materialistic religious empire that is intent on

redesigning the entire world in it's own 'communal' image! An effort that includes

brute force and isolation of resistant individuals and entire nations.

Harry Dean, 1990.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

MORE, from the 1990 manuscript/book, YROJ Connection to......

So powerful we had become after Kennedy's removal,...that JBS leader Welch

wrote to members.." we can take tremendous encouragement from the one huge

victory we have won over the communists."

" We have become very much a part of the cast,therefore, in the final act of this

gory performance".

"And I mean that last statement very literally."

Harry Dean, 1990

[Harry J.Dean]

Hi, James

Is it not possible that a powerful political ideological and extremely

influencing 'well dug in group' with the aim of seising the powers of

government, including president Johnson et.al. after removing Kennedy

and ever since in total control of all foriegn and domestic policies of

the U.S. and the UN.? (Harry Dean)

Hi Harry,

The simple answer to that is yes, it is possible.

Nice to see you posting again. Having someone like yourself who was involved in the political milieu of the time offering their thoughts to the forum is valuable indeed.

Cheers,

James

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

These were my kind of people, until Kennedy was actually killed.

The planned 'NEW AMERICANIST' scheme LDS/JBS with it's framework so cunningly in place for more than a half century, moved quickly {upon Kennedy's death} to consolidate and hold perpetual power over a bewildered government and a confused nation.

Who then can ever be tried or convicted for these awful crimes, when the guilty control, all legal and moral judgements, and dictate their own version of history?

{from my 1990 manuscript/book, YROJ Connection}

Harry

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

More from my 1990 manuscript/book YROJ Connection to the JFK assassination.

Quotes from the 'action arm' of the LDS/JBS assassination conspiracy.

" Finally, and probably most important of all courses of action, we would put our

weight into the political scales in this country just as fast and far as we could"

"...unless we can have enough of an awakening in this country, and enough of

a rebellion against the appeasement policies our government outside, and it's

communizing policies inside America, the Communists are going to succeed"

" In the course of the awakening of America, there was a rapidly rising

identification of the policies of the Kennedy administration with the plans of

the Communists."

" For unless we can eventually,and in time,reverse by political action ,the

gradual surrender of the United States to Communism, the ultimate alternative

of reversal by military uprising is fearful to contemplate.

...we are opposing a conspiracy...our determination to overthrow an entrenched

tyranny is the very stuff of which revolutions are made."

"...the result of our failure in this fight most positively will be concentration camps,

or worse, and soon, we must all stick together or we will surely hang separately."

------------------- -------------------- -----------------

No honest conservative really believed that we were trying to do more than call

the liberal establishment communist sympathizers in order to replace liberalism with conservatism. But we were unknowingly being used to help install this present

system that is surreptitiously wielding every power of the U.S. government to

force the extention of a purely materialistic religious empire that is intent on

redesigning the entire world in it's own 'communal' image! An effort that includes

brute force and isolation of resistant individuals and entire nations.

Harry Dean, 1990.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

MORE, from the 1990 manuscript/book, YROJ Connection to......

So powerful we had become after Kennedy's removal,...that JBS leader Welch

wrote to members.." we can take tremendous encouragement from the one huge

victory we have won over the communists."

" We have become very much a part of the cast,therefore, in the final act of this

gory performance".

"And I mean that last statement very literally."

Harry Dean, 1990

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Kennedy stated, "the very system of government is in dire peril and may not survive my term in office." The President was describing the severe threat posed by extremely powerful cooperative civil and military sedition at work.

Harry Dean, 1990

[Christopher T. George]

Harry is making some very serious points in this thread that should NOT be overlooked.  Great insight, Harry!

Oswald was [remember Oswald...the subject of this thread?] probably the PERFECT patsy.  With his bio, he could be painted as the loser nutcase that the WC made him...OR he could have been positioned as the brave ex-Marine who went undercover, posing as a defector, at great personal risk, for his country.  His story could have been played either way, depending upon the outcome of events in Dallas.  A case could be made that Oswald held menial jobs so that he could respond to assignments at a moment's notice, and the sparse lifestyle he lived was consistent with the concept of keeping a relatively low profile...except within the areas in which he was SUPPOSED to draw attention, the Dallas Russian-exile community and the New Orleans Cuban-agitator communities.  Can ANYONE paint a detailed picture of Oswald's daily life, outside of Marina's accounts?  Co-workers knew little of him, as did neighbors.  Friends were few, and none [that I've read of] were what I would call "close" friends.

So these facts allow Oswald to be a mere outline on an otherwise-blank canvas. And of the outline, it's truly difficult to determine what is the "real" Oswald and what is the "legend" one would need to create as an asset of an intelligence agency. He could be painted as either a patriot or a scoundrel, depending upon the needs of the hour.  And it it THIS malleability of Oswald's image that renders him the TRUE enigma of the JFK assassination lore.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hi Mark

Very interesting post.

You say, "[Oswald] could be painted as either a patriot or a scoundrel, depending upon the needs of the hour."

It is though hard for me to picture the circumstances in which Oswald might be portrayed as a hero, except perhaps if there were any evidence or any planned scenario in which he tried to stop the assassination. As it is, there seems to be no shred of evidence that he did try to stop the murder or that any such set-up was planned, quite the opposite.

I do find it intriguing that the timing of individuals' movements in the Book Depository might have been such that Oswald was actually in the lunch room at the time of the assassination.

Oswald's whole story as now known just seems very strange and bizarre, and seemingly at odds, in some ways, to the actual cold, hard facts of the assassination as we know them.

All my best

Chris

Edited June 19, 2005 by Christopher T. George