Sometimes you can glimse the truth.

[Guest Stephen Turner]

Intelligence gathering activities-have a special & secret character-They have there own rules and methods of concealment-which seek to mislead and obscure..

Dwight D Eisenhower...1960.

Remarks from various Committees, Commissions, Hearings, assassins,and low lifes down the years...

Warren Commission Executive Session.

Dulles He wouldn't tell.

Warren, Wouldn't he tell it under oath?

Dulles, I wouldn't think he would tell it under oath,no.

Warren, Why?

Dulles, HE OUGHT NOT TO TELL IT UNDER OATH,MAYBE NOT TELL IT TO HIS OWN GOVERNMENT.

Warren, Would he not tell it to his own Chief?

Dulles, HE MIGHT, OR HE MIGHT NOT.

Warren Commission Executive Session.

Dulles, There is a hard thing to disprove,how do you disprove a fellow was not your agent.

Boggs, You could disprove it, couldn't you?

Dulles, No, I never knew how to disprove it.

Boggs, did you have agents about whom you had no record whatsoever.

Dulles,The record may not be on paper, BUT ON PAPER YOU WOULD HAVE HIEROGLYPHICS, AND ONLY TWO PEOPLE WOULD KNOW WHAT THEY MEAN, AND NO ONE OUT SIDE THE AGENCY WOULD KNOW.

1975 Senate Intelligence Committee.

Sen Morgan, You were charged with furnishing the W/C with information from the CIA, information that you thought relevant.

Helms, No Sir, I was instructed to reply to the inquieries from the W/C for information from the agency. I was not asked to initiate any particular thing.

Sen Morgan, IN OTHER WORDS IF YOU WEREN'T ASKED FOR IT, YOU DIDNT GIVE IT?

Helms, THATS RIGHT SIR.

Two Warren commission questions foreseen by Angleton.

(1) Was Oswald ever an agent of the CIA.

(2)Did the CIA have any evidenceshowing that a conspiracy existed to assassinate President Kennedy.

Angletons "Replies that will be given."

(1) NO..

(2)NO.....

Television interview at the trial of Jack Ruby.

Reporter," Mr Ruby, will the truth ever get out?"

Ruby, "No, BECAUSE THESE PEOPLE WHO HAVE SO MUCH TO GAIN,and have such an ulterior motive to put me in the position im in, will never let the true facts come aboveboard to the World."

Part of a wiretap 9th November 1963.

Informant, "Well how in hell do you figure would be the best way to get him?"

J Milteer, " FROM AN OFFICE BIULDING, WITH A HIGH POWERED RIFLE."

Informant, "They are really going to try to kill him."

JM, oh yeah, its in the working.

Informant," Boy, if that Kennedy gets shot we have got to know where we are at."

JM, "They wont leave any stone unturned, THE COPS WILL PICK SOMEBODY UP WITHIN HOURS if anything like that happens, JUST TO THROW THE PUBLIC OFF."

Please add your own favorite, gaffs,unintentional truths, and howlers that give the game away......

[John Dolva]

Stephen, while researching the illegal joint mail opening operations I found documentation by the CIA that indicated response preparation in case of exposure.

These strategies were/are aimed at establishing that said operations are no longer in action so that they can be resumed when attention goes away. As you and others have pointed out before there is also the principlre of looking at what is said as well as what is not said. I'd imagine that some of the disclosures that have been made are of the nature of apprearing to be the truth while in fact they are yet another part of an overall strategy of concealment. I keep returning to the 'orchid analogy'. I think the thinking of Angleton has probably shaped much of the CIA. Therefore to understand Angleton may be a clue to understanding the assassination.

[Guest Stephen Turner]

Stephen, while researching the illegal joint mail opening operations I found documentation by the CIA that indicated response preparation in case of exposure.

These strategies were/are aimed at establishing that said operations are no longer in action so that they can be resumed when attention goes away. As you and others have pointed out before there is also the principlre of looking at what is said as well as what is not said. I'd imagine that some of the disclosures that have been made are of the nature of apprearing to be the truth while in fact they are yet another part of an overall strategy of concealment. I keep returning to the 'orchid analogy'. I think the thinking of Angleton has probably shaped much of the CIA. Therefore to understand Angleton may be a clue to understanding the assassination.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

John, your correct of course, Angelton is a complex,and obsessional fellow, just how many careers did he wreck with the KGB mole nonsence. But he was a spy master supreme,who just LOVED his highly complex little plots. His name, along with Dulles, Bissell, Lemnitzer, Lansdale and Walker, and their possible conection's though the JCS, CIA, and Northwoods is very interesting, and suggestive in regards to a Coup Detat. In the spirit of this thread When Dulles was asked by the W/C whether 2 months was the usual waiting time for repatriation to the US from Russia he replied that their was no usual time for this sort of thing

[Tim Gratz]

Stephen wrote:

John, your correct of course, Angelton is a complex,and obsessional fellow, just how many careers did he wreck with the KGB mole nonsence.

Nonsense indeed. How about Aldrich Ames?

Victor Marchetti also believed the CIA had high level KGB moles. In fact, in a footnote to Dick Russell's book, Marchetti is quoted as believing that KGB moles in the CIA planned the assassination.

[John Dolva]

Stephen. Another aspect in the game of deception is that revealed in the 'Reagan Ruckus' of '65, where the JBS offered to Reagan, (FBI informant T 10 of San Francisco) to either support or oppose him, depending on which was judged to be most useful. Exactly how opposing him would work as a veiled support I'm not sure. Perhaps it would endear him to the anti war movement? It's interesting to note that at this time the JBS was spreading information that indicated Warren was a communist sympathiser. What role the JBS plays in the COINTELPRO operations I don't know.

[Guest Stephen Turner]

Stephen wrote:

John, your correct of course, Angelton is a complex,and obsessional fellow, just how many careers did he wreck with the KGB mole nonsence.

Nonsense indeed.  How about Aldrich Ames?

Victor Marchetti also believed the CIA had high level KGB moles.  In fact, in a footnote to Dick Russell's book, Marchetti is quoted as believing that KGB moles in the CIA planned the assassination.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hi Tim, I am not saying that "Moles" did not exist, I'm sure that all agencies were compromised to one degree or another,My point is Angeltons complete paranoia on this subject.

Quote on, Miles Seeley. "My few direct meetings with Mr Angleton were strange indeed, he was unlike anyone else I had encountered in the agency. I managed to have destroyed the majority of files that had been assembled on CIA employees, who Angleton suspected of being Moles. They were a shameful collection of innuendo, rumour, & falsehood, The DDP, & DCI approved of my actions. Quote off

[Tim Gratz]

Stephen wrote (about Angleton's files):

innuendo, rumour, & falsehood,

Hmm. . . innuendos? rumours? . . . falsehoods? Ought to be familiar to persons reading the postings made here. (Not directed at you, Stephen, but I got a chuckle out of that one!)

But back to Angleton. I do not think it unusual that the files of a counterintelligence officer include rumours; I would be surprised if they did not! Presumably spies and double agents are often caught by rumours. Presumably someone in Angelton's position has to attempt to confirm or deny some of those rumors. That is his responsibilty, for heaven's sake. If Agent B comes in and says, I heard Miss Jane Doe saying that Agent A sure likes to flash around his roll of money, should the counterintelligence service ignore the rumour or hearsay that Agent A has an unexpected amount of income unless Miss Smith herself is persuaded to make the report? Obviously not. Rumours are really the stock-in-trade of investigative services. I surely want the CIA and/or FBI tracking down any rumour that might produce evidence of a terrorist cell in our midst.

So I certainly would have been disappointed if Angleton's files had not contained rumours and even falsehoods.

Edited August 22, 2005 by Tim Gratz

[Guest Stephen Turner]

Stephen wrote (about Angleton's files):

So I certainly would have been disappointed if Angleton's files had not contained rumours and even falsehoods.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The problem Tim is that according to Seeley, and many others in a position to know,they, on the whole, contained very little else.

[Tim Gratz]

Stephen, and if you are correct about that, then your criticism is well-taken. But Angleton had enemies, to be sure, and who knows whether his enemies had hidden agendas?

[Guest Stephen Turner]

Angleton had enemies, to be sure, and who knows whether his enemies had hidden agendas?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Tim, I freely admit this is beyond my knowledge. But Angleton had already speculated that Henry Kissinger might be under KGB control, and further accused William Colby, and/or Gerald Ford of being KGB agents.By the end the Guy simply wasnt playing with a full deck.It must be the nature of the espionage game to induce paranoia..Steve.

[Pat Speer]

Angleton had enemies, to be sure, and who knows whether his enemies had hidden agendas?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Tim, I freely admit this is beyond my knowledge. But Angleton had already speculated that Henry Kissinger might be under KGB control, and further accused William Colby, and/or Gerald Ford of being KGB agents.By the end the Guy simply wasnt playing with a full deck.It must be the nature of the espionage game to induce paranoia..Steve.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Tim, William F. Buckley wrote about Angleton in Spytime and depicted him as slowly drifting out to see on the S.S. Paranoia. Virtually everyone who met Angleton believed he'd lost it. Even Ted Shackley, in his memoirs, comes down against Angleton.

Of course you know of the post-Angleton review by the CIA that said if Angleton himself had been KGB it would have been hard for him to have done as much damage as he accomplished on his own, by giving in to his paranoia. Like the "missile gap" the "intelligence gap" turned out to be American paranoia. It was the Iraqi WMD of its day.

[John Dolva]

Other indicators of the thinking on mind control and manipulation can be found by studying the documents at these sites. The CIA takes this seriously and I think it's reasonable to assume that part of their involvement in this case has been and still is in seeking to direct covertly and overtly the debate. I suspect that they regard this as being 'patriotic'. The range of tactics are not just seeding disinformation, but also implying threats and social disgrace etc of various forms in order to steer weakminded or unaware individuals away from areas they wish to remain covered towards 'safe' areas. According to the following documants they attempt to take a scientific approach, enlisting the help of numerous academics and setting up research groups. Some of the people involved are of particular interest, for example : "(General William) Donovan hired a crew of talented and daring young men, many of whom completed their careers with the CIA: Stanley Lovell, George White, Richard Helms, Frank Wisner, and Dr. Sidney Gottlieb. Donovan also recruited the nation’s best scientific researchers—anybody who had talent and an idea—to work for him, without leaving their particular institutions. And he rallied prominent industrialists, a Who’s Who of the nation."

Society for the Investigation of Human Ecology

" By 1963, when the CIA manual (on interrogation) ( discussed at http://www.parascope.com/articles/0397/kubark06.htm ) was authored, the CIA counterintelligence staff had a sizable foundation of government-funded psychological research on which to base their guidebook. The manual's introduction states that "a principal source of aid [to interrogators] today is scientific findings. The intelligence service which is able to bring pertinent, modern knowledge to bear upon its problems enjoys huge advantages over a service which conducts its clandestine business in eighteenth century fashion." In fact, the manual argued, this knowledge "is of sufficient importance and relevance that it is no longer possible to discuss interrogation significantly without reference to the psychological research conducted in the past decade" "

"In 1940, President Roosevelt asked a World War I General, William Donovan, to organize and head a U.S. intelligence gathering service—and a secret scientific research program. Between the two wars, General Donovan had become a very successful Wall Street lawyer. He knew everybody who mattered: politicians, tycoons, academics. They called him “Colonel” or “Wild Bill.” The new agency was called the OSS (Organization for Strategic Services). From the very beginning, bold and imaginative thinking was its rule." - http://www.hypnotism.org/Research.htm