Z-308 and 312

[Pat Speer]

I was at a friend's trying to snag a good up close image of Kennedy's head from the Image of an Assassination DVD, but it had some sort of blocking device. If anyone could post the close up images of Z-308 and z-312 I would be most appreciative. I may use it in my presentation in Dallas. Thanks.

[Frank Agbat]

I was at a friend's trying to snag a good up close image of Kennedy's head from the Image of an Assassination DVD, but it had some sort of blocking device. If anyone could post the close up images of Z-308 and z-312 I would be most appreciative. I may use it in my presentation in Dallas. Thanks.

Pat,

Here is what I have:

[Pat Speer]

I was at a friend's trying to snag a good up close image of Kennedy's head from the Image of an Assassination DVD, but it had some sort of blocking device. If anyone could post the close up images of Z-308 and z-312 I would be most appreciative. I may use it in my presentation in Dallas. Thanks.

Pat,

Here is what I have:

Thanks loads, Frank. That's what I was trying to snag. Excellent.

[Thomas H. Purvis]

I was at a friend's trying to snag a good up close image of Kennedy's head from the Image of an Assassination DVD, but it had some sort of blocking device. If anyone could post the close up images of Z-308 and z-312 I would be most appreciative. I may use it in my presentation in Dallas. Thanks.

Pat,

Here is what I have:

Thanks loads, Frank. That's what I was trying to snag. Excellent.

Pat (& others)

Hope that adequate attention is given to the position of the right arm & wrist of JBC and it's somewhat horizontal plane.

This is when JBC received the "tangent" strike of the fragment to his wrist from the headshot at 313, with the fragment penetrating through the edge of his coat & shirt sleeve and thereafter striking the back side of the wrist area.

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"In attending this wound, it was evident early that clot had been caried into the wound from the dorsal surface to the bone and into the fracture. This would imply that an irregular missile had passed through the wrist from the dorsal to the volar aspect."

"Yes. Assuming that the wrist wound, which included a shattering fracture of the wrist bone, of the radial bone just above the wrist, was produced by a missile there were found in the vicinity of the wound two things which led me to believe that it passed from the dorsal or back side the the volar."

"The first of these was evidence of clothing, bits of thread and cloth, apparently from a dark suit or something of that sort which had been carried into the wound, from the skin into the region of the bone."

"The second of these were two or three small fragments of metal which presumably were shed by the missile after their encounter with the firm substance which is bone"

"Well, the right sleeve of the coat has a tear in it close to the margin at a point which is, I think, comensurate with the location of the dorsal surface, the back side of the wrist, forearm where the two may have been superimposed and both damaged by the same penetrating body."

"The wound of entrance is characteristic in my view of an irregular missile in this case, an irregular missile which has tipped itself off a being irregular by the nature of itself."

QUESTION?: What do you mean irregular?

"I mean one that has been distorted. It is in some way angular, it has edges or sharp edges or something of this sort. It is not rounded or pointed in the fashiion of and ordinary missile. The irregularity of it also, I submit, tends to pick up organic material and carry it into the limb, and this is a very significant takeoff, in my opoinion"

"There is one additional piece of information that is of pertinence but I don't know how effectively it can be applied to the nature of the missile. That is the fact that dorsal branch of the radial nerve, a sensory nerve in this immediate viinity was partially transected together with one tendon leading to the thumb, which was totally transected."

"This could have been produced by a missile entering in the ordinary fashion, undistured , undistorted. But again it is more in keeping with an irregualar surface which would tend to catch and tear a sructure rather than push it aside."

"Recall that I suggested that the wound of entrance, certainly the dorsal wound lay some distance, 5 cm. above the wirist joint, approximately here, that the second wound considered to be the wound of exit was only 2 cm, above this point, making the pathway an oblique one."

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NOTE: Anyone who has not taken the time and effort to meaure and locate a point some 5 cm/ 2-inches back from the wrist joint, on the back/top side of the forearm, should do so, and then ask themselves exactly how this "tangent" wound could have occurred.

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"My initial impression was that whatever produced the wound of the wrist was an irregular object, certainly not smooth nosed as the business end of this particular bullet is because of two things. The size of the wound of entrance, and the fact that it's irregular surface permitted it to pick up organic debris, materials, threads, and carry them into the wound with it."

(Selected extracts from the testimony of Parkland Hospital Surgeon, Dr. Gregory, who conducted the surgical repair to the wrist of Governor Connally)

The basics are:

1. Irregular missile

2. Angular with sharp edges

3. Limited velocity

4. Tearing of coat sleeve and carrying fabric into the back side of the forearm some 2-inches from the wrist.

5. Tearing of flesh, nerves, & tendons

6. Irregular surface which allowed fabric from the coat to be carried into the wound entrance

7. "Oblique" pathway from the back side of he forearm to the wrist joint and palm side exit location

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Of course, Dr. Shaw of Parkland also shed additional information relative to the "missile" which passed through the wrist of JBC.

When discussing the fabric carried into the wound forearm/wrist wound, he stated:

"Except that it might have been carried by the small fragment which obviously passed through the wrist and attached to that"

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In closing on this subject, it is best to utilize the words of Dr. Gregory:

"I think it is plausible that the bullet, having struck the President's head, may have broken into more than one fragment. I think you apprised me of the fact that it did, in fact, disperse into a number of fragments, and they took tangential directions from the original path apparently."

"I think it is possible that a fragment from that particular missile may have escaped and struck the Governor's right arm."

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Dr. Gregory may not be "BO", who "Knows", nevertheless, Dr. Gregory, who operated on the wrist wound of JBC, obviously "Knows" what he observed and operated on.

[Thomas H. Purvis]

I was at a friend's trying to snag a good up close image of Kennedy's head from the Image of an Assassination DVD, but it had some sort of blocking device. If anyone could post the close up images of Z-308 and z-312 I would be most appreciative. I may use it in my presentation in Dallas. Thanks.

Pat,

Here is what I have:

Thanks loads, Frank. That's what I was trying to snag. Excellent.

WC Testimony of Governor John B. Connally:

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So I merely doubled up, and then turned to my right again and began to--I just sat there, and Mrs. Connally pulled me over to her lap. She was sitting, of course, on the jump seat, so I reclined with my head in her lap, conscious all the time, and with my eyes open; and then, of course, the third shot sounded, and I heard the shot very clearly. I heard it hit him. I heard the shot hit something, and I assumed again--it never entered my mind that it ever hit anybody but the President. I heard it hit. It was a very loud noise, just that audible, very clear.

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Question?: Is it only me, or does it not appear that JBC is sitting relatively erect in Z-312?

Irrelevant of "erect" or not, certainly does not appear that he is "reclined" with his head in the lap of Nellie!

Just as it would not appear that in the 1/18th of a second from Z-312 to Z-313 that JBC could get down and get his head into Nellie's lap.

Makes one wonder exactly "when" it was that JBC had his head in Nellie's lap and the impact to JFK of the "third shot" was?

Not to mention the fact that most of those with whom I am familiar, who suffered "severe" wounds, really recalled virtually nothing after the wounding, with the exception of the pain.

Guess that they just did not have the "John Wayne" stamina (&/or image of JBC)

[Thomas H. Purvis]

I was at a friend's trying to snag a good up close image of Kennedy's head from the Image of an Assassination DVD, but it had some sort of blocking device. If anyone could post the close up images of Z-308 and z-312 I would be most appreciative. I may use it in my presentation in Dallas. Thanks.

Pat,

Here is what I have:

Thanks loads, Frank. That's what I was trying to snag. Excellent.

WC Testimony of Governor John B. Connally:

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So I merely doubled up, and then turned to my right again and began to--I just sat there, and Mrs. Connally pulled me over to her lap. She was sitting, of course, on the jump seat, so I reclined with my head in her lap, conscious all the time, and with my eyes open; and then, of course, the third shot sounded, and I heard the shot very clearly. I heard it hit him. I heard the shot hit something, and I assumed again--it never entered my mind that it ever hit anybody but the President. I heard it hit. It was a very loud noise, just that audible, very clear.

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Question?: Is it only me, or does it not appear that JBC is sitting relatively erect in Z-312?

Irrelevant of "erect" or not, certainly does not appear that he is "reclined" with his head in the lap of Nellie!

Just as it would not appear that in the 1/18th of a second from Z-312 to Z-313 that JBC could get down and get his head into Nellie's lap.

Makes one wonder exactly "when" it was that JBC had his head in Nellie's lap and the impact to JFK of the "third shot" was?

Not to mention the fact that most of those with whom I am familiar, who suffered "severe" wounds, really recalled virtually nothing after the wounding, with the exception of the pain.

Guess that they just did not have the "John Wayne" stamina (&/or image of JBC)

First off, I must question the rationale of those who accept that the WC is somewhat of a general lie, yet accept the WC version of the Z-312 being the last shot fired in the shot sequence.

If they "lie" about one item, rest assured that they have no qualms in relationship to telling the same lie on other items.

Especially when all aspects of the lie are related.

Secondly, with so much attempt by the WC to originally delete from the public knowledge those aspects of the third shot and location of the Presidential Limousine at the time of this shot, exactly why the general research community has not taken the time to adequately examine the facts of the assassination shot sequencing.

(Too busy hunting multiple assassins; badge man; sewer drain man; Dal-Tex Man; Black-Dog Man, etc; etc; etc;, to waste time on the facts, I would suppose)

In the event that one will take the time to review the WC as well as HSCA testimony of JBC, as well as Nellie, they will find that at least they have remained fairly consistant as to when the "Third Shot" was fired.

In this regard also, there is nothing that is, or has ever been complicated, other than the continued BS which attempts to make it so.

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"John had turned to the right at the first shot to look back & had then wheeled to the left to get another look--realized the President had been shot said "No, No, No" was hit and said "My God they are going to kill us all"--wheeled back to the right crumpling his shoulders to his knees in the most helpless & pitiful position a tall big man can be in. I reached over and pulled him back down in the car.

Then came a third shot.

With John in my arms & still trying to stay down I did not see the third shot hit--but I felt something falling all over us."

Handwritten notes of Nellie Connally which were made exactly 10 days after the assassination

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In this regard, might I recommend that one consider that evidence which has demonstrated the position/location of the Presidential limousine, as determined by the US Secret Service on 12/5/63, for impact of the third shot fired.

Thereafter, might I recommend that one take a look at the testimony of Mr. James Altgens, and position/location of, as well as other witnesses who were located "down range" as to where the Presidential Limousine was located at the time of the Third/last/final shot.

Thereafter, might I recommend that one take a look at the number of other witness statements which have clearly stated that it was the Second Shot which struck the President in the top rear of the head.

Then, should one ever come to recognize that all of the BS as regards time required to aim and fire the weapon, are of little relevance, then the three shots fired in the assassination can be placed into their proper perspective.

And, since Nellie Connally has clearly demonstrated that the blood and brain tissue from the THIRD shot was blown forward,* then it would be fairly confident to state that this, the third/last/final shot also came from the rear.

Lastly, one really should compare the statements as regards to the actions of, and positions of JBC and Nellie, as described by both parties, with the Z-312/313 frames of the Z-film.

Perhaps those who "visualize" badge-man; black-dog man; etc, can see JBC crumpled over and laying in Nellie's lap.

However, to me, it would appear that at Z-312 that he is sitting relatively erect.

Tom

P.S. If it looks like a "duck", walks like a "duck" and quacks like a "duck", then in all probability, it is not a horse; goat; or cow.

Even if there is a whole lot of BS!

[Steve Mullard]

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I guess we can all go home now - safe in the knowledge that Mr Purvis has at last solved this 42 year old mystery....

[Thomas H. Purvis]

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I guess we can all go home now - safe in the knowledge that Mr Purvis has at last solved this 42 year old mystery....

Considering that it was pretty well solved before the end of December, 1963, this would not be any great accomplishment.

And, in the event you are looking for multiple assassins, then you are also correct in that you may as well go home.

[Frank Agbat]

With all due respect, Thomas, I have a great deal of trouble following your threads when you insist on continually replying to yourself.

JBC *is* slumping in 308/312. Please compare:

and

308, etc, are almost directly perpendicular to Zapruder's sight line. This, and the type of lens used on the camera, produces a distance-compression effect. However, between 262 and 297, JBC most clearly slumps backwards toward his wife.

However, it is after Z312 that he rolls over where he is face-down, as opposed to what you see in 312.

I have noticed something recently, though, in some of the later Z-frames that might indicate that JBC pops his head up again well after the head shot. I'll post it if it turns out to be anything worth looking at.

[Thomas H. Purvis]

With all due respect, Thomas, I have a great deal of trouble following your threads when you insist on continually replying to yourself.

JBC *is* slumping in 308/312. Please compare:

and

308, etc, are almost directly perpendicular to Zapruder's sight line. This, and the type of lens used on the camera, produces a distance-compression effect. However, between 262 and 297, JBC most clearly slumps backwards toward his wife.

However, it is after Z312 that he rolls over where he is face-down, as opposed to what you see in 312.

I have noticed something recently, though, in some of the later Z-frames that might indicate that JBC pops his head up again well after the head shot. I'll post it if it turns out to be anything worth looking at.

"If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck", then it is most probably not a horse, goat or cow.!

[Pat Speer]

Thomas, while the wrist fragments were logically not from the "magic" bullet, they were almost certainly not from the same bullet as the brain fragments and the bullet nose found on the front seat. Do you disregard the Neutron Activation Analysis in its entirety, or merely dispute this one result?

[Thomas H. Purvis]

Thomas, while the wrist fragments were logically not from the "magic" bullet, they were almost certainly not from the same bullet as the brain fragments and the bullet nose found on the front seat. Do you disregard the Neutron Activation Analysis in its entirety, or merely dispute this one result?

1. According to those who support the NAA (Specifically Ken Rahn), the NAA examination proves beyond any reasonable doubt that the wrist fragment(s) recovered from JBC, match, in metalurgical content, the lead of CE399.

2. This of course also effectively eliminates the JBC wrist fragments as having come from the bullet which struck JFK in the head and severely fragmented.

I concur fully with the comparison data as represented by the NAA work.

The tested fragment bears no similarity to the metalurgical composition of lead from the head shot.

The tested fragment closely bears a similarity to the metalurgical composition of CE 399.

This however does not mean that the fragment(s) tested were in fact even related to the fragments which were actually removed from the wrist of JBC.

In the event my other "circular" discussions lost you, there existed a small "cone-shaped", "flat-based" fragment which was found in the left rear floorboard of the Presidential Limousine.

This fragment weighed .9 grains. It WAS NOT an irregular-shaped fragment.

This fragment was included in with two other quite "irregular" shaped lead fragments which were also recovered from the rear floorboard, and together, these three lead fragments constituted CE 840.

By the time that the fragments made it to the National Archives, the .9 grain fragment had disappeared from the evidence chain. (Lost) if one choses.

To an extremely high degree of probability, this missing fragment came from the base of CE 399 due to the manner in which CE399 incurred it's other anomalies, and is also to this same high degree of probability what actually exited the throat of JFK.

One thing which the FBI (Hoover) and/or members of the WC were entirely capable of doing when they had possession of the physical evidence was to cause the actual fragments which were removed from the wrist of JBC to become "lost", and thereafter replace these small fragments with the .9grain fragment which disappeared from CE 840.

By merely cutting this .9 grain piece of lead into pieces, one could create small pieces of lead which could be made to represent those fragments removed from the wrist of JBC, during any NAA testing.

In replacing the actual fragments removed from the wrist of JBC with fragments created from the missing fragment of CE 840, one has now assured that NAA will demonstrate/support the theory that CE399 is also responsible for the wrist wound to JBC.

That this actually occurred is supported by:

a. Any damn fool knows that CE 399 DID NOT do what the WC claimed that it did.

b. Since CE 399 quite obviously is not responsible for the wrist injury to JBC, and the NAA eliminates the fragments from the headshot as being from the same bullet as the wrist fragments of JBC, then:

1. Either a switch has been made

2. The wrist fragments are from a third bullet as they could not have physically come from CE399.

c. The weight discrepancy of fragments tested is indicative that something has taken place in regards to these fragments, of which we are not aware.

d. Those surgeons of Parkland Hospital have clearly described the physical nature of the "missile" which is responsible for the wrist wound of JBC. "Irregular"' "Sharp Edges", which created "tearing" of ligaments and tendons, etc, tearing the cloth of the coat and carrying into the wound fibers from the coat as well as air tissue.*

*One should also note that the bullet which struck JBC in the back/shoulder, did not carry any fabric into the wound of entry.

In Conclusion:

The NAA data is relatively correct, in that the "TESTED" fragment(s) in fact came from the base of CE399.

The trouble being, these fragments did not come from the wrist of JBC, and are in fact the small .9grain cone-shaped/flat-based fragment which was squeezed out the base of CE 399 and was recovered from the rear floorboard of the Presidential Limousine, to become a part of CE840, only to disappear.

Lastly, I would state that FBI Agent Frazier, in listing the bullets and fragments, in his original notes, was fully aware that the now missing fragment was in all probability from CE 399.

The handwritten notes of Frazier, upon first examination of the fragments indicate for the .9grain (now missing fragment, :"possibly from Q-1", with Q-1 being the original designation for CE399.

All merely another "sleight-of-hand" with the physical evidence while in the possession of those who continue to foster the CE399 lie.

[Ron Ecker]

In looking at 308 and 312 here, where is JFK's slight forward head movement, before the head shot (313), that some have claimed indicates a possible shot to the head from the rear before 313? I don't see any noticeable difference in his head position between 308 and 312.

[Pat Speer]

In looking at 308 and 312 here, where is JFK's slight forward head movement, before the head shot (313), that some have claimed indicates a possible shot to the head from the rear before 313? I don't see any noticeable difference in his head position between 308 and 312.

The slight head movement occurs between 312 and 313. Josiah Thompson, the first one to note the movement, I believe, now says he believes there was no such movement. He attributes the perceived movement to the blur of the film.

[Tim Carroll]

The slight head movement occurs between 312 and 313. Josiah Thompson, the first one to note the movement, I believe, now says he believes there was no such movement. He attributes the perceived movement to the blur of the film.

Josiah Thompson also believes that David Wimp's deceleration theory has merit. Contributing to that theory is the fact of JFK's back brace. Given that his torso was held upright by a back brace, the president's head was more prone to reflect the deceleration than other occupants of the limo, who would have shown the effects in a more generalized fashion.

Fetzer claims I want to return things to their 1967 basis. This, of course, is nonsense. Let me rebut it by pointing out a major mistake I made in "Six Seconds." I measured there that JFK's head moved forward about two inches between Z312 and Z313. This forward movement followed by the obvious left, backward snap suggested to me that he had been hit in the head from the rear and then, almost instantaneously, from the right front. Within the last few years, Art Snyder of the Stanford Linear Accelerator Laboratory, was able to show me how this involved a serious mistake in measurement. As you all know, Z312 is quite clear while Z313 is smeared from movement of the camera. Using fairly complicated math, Snyder was able to demonstrate to me that I was measuring the smear on frame Z313 and not the movement of Kennedy's head. That socalled "two-inch movement" was an illusion; it came from the smear.

David Wimp and Joe Durnavich came to much the same conclusion. Wimp, however, has gone futher. He has shown that JFK's head begins moving forward about Z308 and that everyone else in the limousine... Kellerman, Greer, Jackie, Mrs. Connally, John Connally... also begin a moderate movement forward at that time. After Z314, JFK flips backward and to the left while all the rest continue moving forward. The explanation: When Greer turned to look in the back seat at circa Z302 his foot tapped the brake, decelerating the limousine and throwing forward all the limousine's occupants. There is no longer any clear evidence in the Zapruder film of Kennedy being hit in the back of the head. (I say "clear" because there may be some evidence of a hit from the rear at Z327/328) The Z312-Z317 sequence... the bowling over of JFK to the left rear.... is the unambiguous result of a shot from the right front.

This is wonderful progress by careful research.

Tim Carroll