Did the Special Group really assassinate JFK?

[Tim Carroll]

On 12th March, 1961, Harvey arranged for CIA operative, Jim O'Connell, to meet Sam Giancana, Santo Trafficante, Johnny Roselli and Robert Maheu at the Fontainebleau Hotel.

Lynne, what is your source for that information? I believe that Harvey took over from O'Connell as Rosselli's CIA "case officer" sometime in 1962.

Lynne is correct that Jim O'Connell, Sam Giancana, Santo Trafficante, Johnny Roselli and Robert Maheu had their first meeting at the Fountainbleu, but it was in September of 1960 that they first met there. Tim is correct that William Harvey didn't come into it until much later, and the meeting in March 1961 was when the poison pills were passed to Roselli in anticipation of the Bay of Pigs. Trafficante wasn't at the first meeting, but was present for one that followed shortly thereafter, using the alias "Joe Pecora."

T.C.

[Tim Gratz]

Tim, I had heard that Trafficante was introduced as "Joe the Courier".

[Shanet Clark]

Tim, I had heard that Trafficante was introduced as "Joe the Courier".

The known relationship between CIA and Organized Crime figures in the early 1960s

is a disturbing pyart of US history, but I think in the big picture, the MAFIA has been

used as a cutout and fall-back scapegoat for the assassination, especially by Blakey and

the late 1970's House of Representatives findings. The classified agencies are a much

more realistic source for the murder and the cover-up than the goombahs............

[Tim Gratz]

Jack Ruby worked for the Mafia, not the "classified agencies". If there was a conspiracy (a point on which we all agree) there is only one person we know FOR SURE must have been a part of it: Mr. Ruby.

[Tim Carroll]

The known relationship between CIA and Organized Crime figures in the early 1960s is a disturbing pyart of US history, but I think in the big picture, the MAFIA has been used as a cutout and fall-back scapegoat for the assassination, especially by Blakey and the late 1970's House of Representatives findings. The classified agencies are a much more realistic source for the murder and the cover-up than the goombahs............

Jack Ruby worked for the Mafia, not the "classified agencies". If there was a conspiracy (a point on which we all agree) there is only one person we know FOR SURE must have been a part of it: Mr. Ruby.

Many people who see the hand of the government in the assassination are wary of Mafia-did-it scenarios because of how they've been used to distract from the darker truth about the involvement of intelligence operatives and the possible coup d'etat that occurred on November 22, 1963. Learning that the Mafia was working for the CIA on assassination plots was the key that emerged in the post-Watergate disclosures that explained what a false distinction it is to believe that the government and the mafia are at every level separate entities. It's not unlike trying to distinguish between some second-generation legitimized big business and organized crime, or the military industrial complex and foreign policymaking, or big oil and govermental energy policy. To say that Marcello was the boss for Dallas doesn't eliminate H.L. Hunt's potential role as a financial sponsor. These false distinctions distract from the truth of the cross-pollination of the controlling power centers. During that same post-Watergate period, with the Church Committee revelations, an issue arose about a top-secret ship in San Francisco Bay called the Glomar Explorer. It was almost comical that the CIA claimed it belonged to Howard Hughes, and Hughes claimed it belonged to the CIA. I'm still not sure that there has been a clear-cut resolution to the dilemma. And look at Maheu; how do we categorize him? It's the interrelationships rather than the distinctions between groups that has brought about the current level of understanding.

T.C.

Edited December 2, 2005 by Tim Carroll

[Tim Gratz]

Tim wrote:

To say that Marcello was the boss for Dallas doesn't eliminate H.L. Hunt's potential role as a financial sponsor

The Mafia had financial resources of its own sufficient to fund the operation.

[Tim Carroll]

Tim wrote: To say that Marcello was the boss for Dallas doesn't eliminate H.L. Hunt's potential role as a financial sponsor The Mafia had financial resources of its own sufficient to fund the operation.

It might be beneficial to bring Hunt in, as a matter of respect and mutual cover, as well as financing. Just to provide him with foreknowledge would be a form of protection. Futher, Hunt had his own intelligence capability, as well as a personal armed force. We know that some Kennedy operation planned for Dallas had leaked to Hunt on November 4, 1963. I'm simply saying that people from different walks of life get in bed together. Just as the Kennedys might have been willing to promote a coup as long as it didn't appear that way, Marcello might have been willing to promote an assassination as long as his bedmates were legitimate power brokers and government operatives.

T.C.

[Tim Gratz]

Tim, well I will agree with you that it is possible the Mafia may have encouraged involvement by others to "muddy the waters". But I think it may be more likely it would involve "rogue CIA agents" since such involvement would arguably require a "cover up". Hunt's would not.

[Tim Carroll]

Tim, well I will agree with you that it is possible the Mafia may have encouraged involvement by others to "muddy the waters". But I think it may be more likely it would involve "rogue CIA agents" since such involvement would arguably require a "cover up". Hunt's would not.

H. L. Hunt's role in Texas politics, and particularly with LBJ, wouldn't have required a cover-up? I believe Gerry Hemming might have something to contribute about old man Hunt's availability and role in funding various types of operations.

T.C.

[Dawn Meredith]

[quote name='Tim Gratz' date='Dec 2 2005, 09:57 AM' post='47002']

Tim wrote:

[

The Mafia had financial resources of its own sufficient to fund the operation.

You're right Tim, BUT this was the damn president. The Mafia can only get away with so much. The entire government would not cover up such a hit. Mafia also does not explain getting the patsy in place at the TSBDB, or getting SS to stand down in SanAntonio, the motorcade changes, getting the cabinet out of the country, and a multidude of other little details to ensure success. You KNOW there was no federal law in place then, that Tx. had jurisdiction over this murder, that the body was literally snached away ....and when Jack Ruby told Earl Warren and Jerry Ford "a whole new form of government " would now be taking over, do you really suppose he meant the freaken MOB???

I know you know it was conspiracy and you cannot deal with the notion that YOUR government murdered a

much loved president; or any president, but that is what a coup d' etat IS, and is what occurred in 63, imho.

Dawn

[Lynne Foster]

Tim wrote:

To say that Marcello was the boss for Dallas doesn't eliminate H.L. Hunt's potential role as a financial sponsor

The Mafia had financial resources of its own sufficient to fund the operation.

It is J. Edgar Hoover's deliberate refusal to declare war on the Mafia, which made the Mafia so powerful.

When you put Maheau, Hoover's lackey into the picture, Hoover was the source of the Mafia's power.

Very murky, this relationship between the Feds and the Mafia in the 1960's.

[Tim Gratz]

Dawn wrote:

You're right Tim, BUT this was the damn president. The Mafia can only get away with so much. The entire government would not cover up such a hit. Mafia also does not explain getting the patsy in place at the TSBDB, or getting SS to stand down in SanAntonio, the motorcade changes, getting the cabinet out of the country, and a multidude of other little details to ensure success. You KNOW there was no federal law in place then, that Tx. had jurisdiction over this murder, that the body was literally snached away ....and when Jack Ruby told Earl Warren and Jerry Ford "a whole new form of government " would now be taking over, do you really suppose he meant the freaken MOB???

I know you know it was conspiracy and you cannot deal with the notion that YOUR government murdered a

much loved president; or any president, but that is what a coup d' etat IS, and is what occurred in 63, imho.

Dawn I don't have the time to answer but you are just plain wrong and so are most of your reasons.

Let's just take one you cite: "the motorcade changes". There were none. See Ian Griggs' book "No Case to Answer" wherein he rebuts that old wive's tale.

[Lynne Foster]

Hoover and Garrison protected the Mafia. You don't need any time to understand that.

[Lynne Foster]

Tim wrote: To say that Marcello was the boss for Dallas doesn't eliminate H.L. Hunt's potential role as a financial sponsor The Mafia had financial resources of its own sufficient to fund the operation.

It might be beneficial to bring Hunt in, as a matter of respect and mutual cover, as well as financing. Just to provide him with foreknowledge would be a form of protection. Futher, Hunt had his own intelligence capability, as well as a personal armed force. We know that some Kennedy operation planned for Dallas had leaked to Hunt on November 4, 1963. I'm simply saying that people from different walks of life get in bed together. Just as the Kennedys might have been willing to promote a coup as long as it didn't appear that way, Marcello might have been willing to promote an assassination as long as his bedmates were legitimate power brokers and government operatives.

T.C.

Now this is the kind of post that makes a great deal of sense. Good stuff, I can't stand reading all the nonsense that Dawn, Owen and others post.

Thanx.

[Lynne Foster]

A search on google indicates that numerous phases of intelligence gathering on the Castro government were carried out by the Special Group, as well as a multitude of plans to encourage revolt inside Cuba. Records reveal more than the widely researched Operation Mongoose. Included in this collection are many little-known U.S. plots formulated to bring down Castro’s regime. Moreover, since the Special Group’s initiatives failed to topple the Cuban government, don't you think they were itching for the opportunity to succeed at something, anything..................