Radio Coverage and Audio of 11/22/63

[Lee Forman]

Lee,

Some info on the Lucas B&B.... I don't know who the owner of the B&B would have been at the time of Sam Pate's story.

I once did some poking around on the Lucas B&B, and here's what I came up with. These are just raw notes.

In the DPD Archives, attached to a typed complaint about three men in a blue and white Ford speeding on South Hampton at about 3:00 p.m. on the 22nd, there is this undated, handwritten note:

Off B.M. Simmons 1514 was eating breakfast at Lucas B&B at 4:00 a.m. Tuesday and heard a waitress say that she had seen Ruby with Oswald in B&B several times.

Beck

(DPD Archives Box 7, Folder# 8, Item# 39)

http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/box7.htm

Simmons worked the Traffic Division, Accident Prevention Bureau 11:00p.m. to 7:00 a.m. shift under Sgt. W.R. Russell (Batchelor Exhibit 5002 at 19H132.)

The Beck who signed this handwritten note would more than like by Ernest R. Beck who worked the Criminal Investigation Division, Homicide and Robbery Bureau under Captain Fritz. (Batchelor Exhibit 5002 at 19H145.)

On January 27, 1964 District Attorney, Henry Wade wrote an Undeveloped Lead – Ruby Case memorandum. The memo reads:

Olin Scurlock, EM3-1061, called Thursday, January 23, and stated that a friend of his, Paul Emory’s barber had told him that one of the Lucases at the B&B Café on Oak Lawn had told him that Ruby had been in their place of business with Oswald on more than one occasion.

Emory, the barber and Lucas should be interviewed to see if there is anything to this or not.

A handwritten annotation at the bottom of this memo reads: Interview Mary Lawrence 4325 Chestnut

(DPD Archives Box 18, Folder# 7, Item# 29

http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/box18.htm

The Lucas B&B at 3520 Oak Lawn, phone number, LA 6-9097 was a couple of doors down from the Vegas Club at 3508 Oak Lawn. I imagine that Ruby dropped in there quite frequently after the Vegas Club closed at 2:00 a.m.; in fact, he had a history with the B&B as he was arrested there by Officers W. M. Wall and Detective C. W. Deloney at 3:34 in the morning on July 26, 1953 for carrying a concealed weapon. Interestingly enough, in his memo to Chief Curry written on December 12, 1963, Deloney said that Dr. George Boswell, “a resident physician at Parkland Hospital was with us.”

(DPD Archives Box 5, Folder# 7, Item# 21)

http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/box5.htm

Ruby was released by R. L. Patton and P. Dillehay by permission of Captain Westbrook.

DPD Archives Box 5, Folder# 7, Item# 20

http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/box5.htm

As early as the 24th of November, authorities were aware of this possible connection between Oswald and Ruby. On November 24, 1963 FBI Agents Nat Pinkston and George Carlson interviewed Pete Lucas, Manager of the Lucas B&B Restaurant. Lucas told the FBI that Ruby used to frequent the coffee shop section of the restaurant, but he had been kicked out for creating a disturbance with another customer and told never to come back. The interview report reads in part, “MR. LUCAS stated that he knows of no particular associates of RUBY other than the fact that he has seen him on occasions in the company of Dallas Police Officers and riding in Dallas Police Squad cars.” Lucas was shown a photograph of Oswald and told the FBI that had never seen Oswald in the company of Jack Ruby.

Henry Wade wrote his memo on January 27, 1964. Apparently Wade had received information that one of the Lucases had told someone that Ruby had “been in their place of business with Oswald on more than one occasion.”

On the 28th, Detective D. N. Boyd of the DPD Criminal Intelligence Section interviewed Pete Lucas. In his memo to Chief Curry, Boyd said that Lucas stated that both Jack Ruby and his sister, Eva Grant were forbidden to enter his restaurant. Lucas stated that waitress Mary Lawrence had told him that she saw Ruby and Oswald eating in the restaurant prior to the assassination. Lucas went on to tell Boyd that Lawrence was a chronic xxxx and tended to fabricate stories. Lucas said that there was no truth to the story.

However, at the end of the memo, Boyd wrote that Lucas told him that the FBI and two detectives from the Homicide Bureau had already interviewed Mary Lawrence.

DPD Archives Box 18, Folder# 7, Item# 19

http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/box18.htm

In the DPD Archives, there is a copy of an interview with Mary Lawrence conducted by Detectives R. W. Westphal and P. M. Parks of the Criminal Intelligence Section, but it is dated January 30, 1964 – two days after the interview with Pete Lucas referenced earlier.

I have not yet found a copy of the FBI interview with Mary Lawrence, nor are there copies of any earlier interviews of her conducted by the DPD.

In the January 30th interview, Mary told the Dallas Police that Oswald had come into the Lucas B&B at about 2:15 a.m. on November 22nd. (The Oswald we know was home in bed in Irving at that time). She stated that this man was positively Lee Harvey Oswald. “Oswald” said he was waiting for Jack Ruby. Ruby came in a short time later, and “Oswald” joined him. “Oswald” left around 2:45 a.m. She then went on to say that she couldn’t be sure that it was Oswald, but if he had a small deep scar on his left cheek, it was him. She then told the Police that a few days after the assassination she received an anonymous phone call telling her to get out of town or she would die.

DPD Archives Box 18, Folder# 7, Item# 24

http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/box18.htm

The handwritten note from Beck concerning information Officer Simmons had received, and the memo from Henry Wade about an undeveloped lead, both indicate that Ruby and Oswald were observed together in the Lucas B&B on more than one occasion. The DPD interview of Mary Lawrence only references this one incident.

I tried to email the “eric” you referenced at the aol email address he had in 2000, but it bounced back as undeliverable.

From the HSCA deposition of Jack Todd (a notorius Dallas criminal):

Q. Did you ever back in the, we'll say, the early 50's, do. you recall a restaurant called the B & B on Oaklawn Street?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did you used to frequent that?

A. On occasions, yes, sir.

I appears that the Lucas B&B Restaurant was part of larger concern.

On March 18, 1999 the Texas House of Representatives adopted a Resolution honoring the memory of George Faithon Lucas, who in 1938, returned from college to devote his time and talents to the family businesses of Lucas Farms in Mesquite and the Lucas B&B restaurant in Dallas and at his father's behest ran the farm during World War II. George died at the age of 79 in April of 1998. Under his direction, the Resolution reads, “WHEREAS, Throughout the years, Lucas Farms prospered greatly under his direction, growing to become one of the largest dairies in Texas; at one time, it included more than 4,000 acres and 600 milk cows…”

“RESOLVED, That the House of Representatives of the 76th Texas Legislature hereby honor the memory of George Faithon Lucas and extend sincere sympathy to the members of his family: to his daughter and son-in-law, Carolyn Lucas Bass and John R. Bass, Sr.; to his grandson, John R. Bass, Jr., and his wife, Eloise Barry Bass; to his granddaughter, Sarah Elizabeth Bass; to his brother and sister-in-law, Faithon P. Lucas, Jr., and Evelyn Dees Lucas; to his sisters and brother-in-law, Elizabeth Faithon Lucas, Mary Lucas Barunes, Helen Lucas Pappas, and Pete H. Pappas; to his sister-in-law, Ethel Zotos Lucas; and to his 17 nieces and nephews.”

http://www.capitol.state.tx.us/tlo/76R/billtext/HR00242F.HTM

Lucas Farms was in Mesquite. Mary Lawrence lived there as well.

Steve Thomas

Dallas History Message Board

Re: Lucas B&B

Posted By: Lee Chevalier <lee.c2.chevalier@mail.sprint.com>

Date: Thursday, 12 September 2002, at 12:27 p.m.

In Response To: Re: Lucas B&B (Jerry Felts)

Actually, the Lucas family, though dispersed, is still in several food operations in/around DFW. They have that lovely Greek habit of large families, all tied to one another in sometimes remote ways. The Lucas B&B neon sign was left (alas, not the Phil's Delicatessen sign across the street) on Oak Lawn as its family owners hit a generation who wanted to develop other businesses. The original Lucas B&B (Better and Better?) cafes in the last century were downtown (there's a good photo in A.C.'s book) in several locations, including the Adolphus (Akard side entrance behind the cigar store) Hotel before they moved into the Oak Lawn location. Faithon Lucas could boast that his eggs came from his own farms; that you could eat breakfast at any time ("Have an 'After the Show'," the menu offered, referring to the nearby Esquire Theatre).

The last B&B location, since filled by Pappadeaux, included a separate cocktail lounge and the breakfast room replete with Miss Polly and other "Flo"-type waitpersons.

The intersection of Oak Lawn and Lemmon is worth a chapter in any Dallas history. The Lucas family also included Virginia Nick, who has underwritten opera, cultural events (especially Greek) and Greek Orthodox labors in this region.

Steve Thomas

Very interesting Steve. I did a bit of internet poking myself - but you never fail to surprise me with stuff I didn't see! Thanks very much. Mr. Sam Pate has given me several replies. All very interesting stuff. Was thinking to wait a bit and then pull it all together and post it - but I may wait until Duke Lane has had a chance to personally interview Mr. Pate.

- lee

[Lee Forman]

I'd like to ask John Simkin to rename this thread - Sam Pate and KBOX-AM.

Sam gave me his okay to share his replies to my questions, etc. Instead of posting the whole thing, I thought I'd try to present a bit at a time, and try to analyze it a bit.

For your information, The Detectives took the murder weapon [1] down in front of the School Book Depository. While I was making a report, I saw two detectives coming down the rear stairwell. One had a Rifle with a scope [2] and another detective was bringing down a rifle [3] and a shotgun, the shotgun being the Detectives. That was at least four weapons upstairs that came down [including the shotgun] and then on the Ch2, someone came out on the two-way saying that a rifle was found on the west side of the building [4]. If it had been one of the detectives rifle someone should have stated it is Detectives, So and So.

Going back to the thread on the TSBD and where the shooters were positioned again.

7th Floor East

6th Floor West

5th or 6th Floor East [the decoy window]

It appears that rooftop should have also been added.

There were several bullets and hulls around the Plaza.

Consistent with the .45 round and the mystery man, the account of Seymour Weitzman, and others.

http://spot.acorn.net/jfkplace/09/fp.back_...ue/arrb_13.html

Document # 180-10077-10208 Is the 25 page statement of Dr. Charles Laburda. Dr. Laburda told Mr. Matthews that Mr. Weitzman was a chronic schizophrenic. He was constantly in fear of his life. Also, he would tell people some things to make them happy and get them to go away. This was the case with Mr. Weitzman's identification of Watergate figures being in Dealey Plaza.

Dr. Laburda stated that Mr. Weitzman was on 800 mg. of Mellaril, which was increased to 1,000 mg. a day. Dr. Laburda stated that that is 200mg. above maximum which is generally used but Mr. Weitzman tolerates it well. Mr. Weitzman was also on 300 mg. of Elavil, an anti-depressant medication, which contributes also to regulating his sleep pattern.

Mr. Weitzman told Dr. Laburda that he believes positively there were two people shooting. That he saw some men crouching behind some bushes. Now he does not know who it was, but after the shooting the man was not there. I asked him at the time that it could have been somebody from the police and he said it could have been but then he said he found a spent cartridge at that time, and it was from a Mauser rifle 7.65 in that area. I suspect that these things are partly elaboration of somewhat what he had heard, what other people said, and speculation that had been advanced in the last ten years, so I could not say that this was the idea that he had at that time, but he told me that he believed from the beginning that there was more than one person shooting.

I theorized about this before, and I still believe it makes a great deal of sense. One shot originating in the Nix classic gunman position, using a sonic supressor. An automatic, which ejected the cartridge, which then hit the sidewalk, behind the position of Abraham Zapruder and Marilyn Sitzman. As per the Daniel film and eye-witnesses - no broken glass, an intact Coke bottle on the wall, coke bottles in 1963 were extremely thick, lack of evidence of a black couple behind the retaining wall, etc. What Marilyn Sitzman heard was most likely the sound of a shot and a cartridge 'tinkling' on the sidewalk - and she took this for the black couple she had seen previously, smashing a coke bottle.

More at another time..

- lee

[Robin Unger]

QUOTE:

That was at least four weapons upstairs that came down [including the shotgun] and then on the Ch2, someone came out on the two-way saying that a rifle was found on the west side of the building [4]. If it had been one of the detectives rifle someone should have stated it is Detectives, So and So.

Discovery program called "Murder in dealey plaza" shows a few frames taken of the WEST side of the TSBD.

Does anyone know the Timeline to this footage as it appears to show someone on the 7th floor, and open windows.

[Robin Unger]

I asked Gary Mack about the Timline of the image above:

QUOTE:

Filmed from the entrance ramp at Stemmons Freeway by Malcolm Couch/WFAA-TV five to ten minutes or more after the assassination. Part of the full clip shows Deputy Sheriff Harry Weatherford climbing into a lower window after searching for shells on top of the storage shed. Weatherford had run to the building immediately after watching the motorcade from near the northeast corner of Main & Houston.

Gary

Lee.

Weatherford said that after he climed back in the window on the first floor, he then proceeded up to the seventh floor to search it.

That may explain the man we see in the window on the 7th floor.

COUNTY OF DALLAS

SHERIFF'S DEPARTMENT

SUPPLEMENTARY INVESTIGATION REPORT

REF: ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY

FROM: HARRY WEATHERFORD, Deputy Sheriff

Date: November 23, 1963

On Friday, November 22, 1963, at about 12:30 PM, I was standing in front of the Sheriff's Office watching the Presidential Motorcade. The President's car had passed my location a couple of minutes when I heard a loud report which I thought was a railroad torpedo, as it sounded as if it came from the railroad yard. Thinking, this was a heck of a time for one to go off, then I heard a 2nd report which had more of an echo report and thought to myself, that this was a rifle and I started toward the corner when I heard the 3rd report. By this time I was running towards the railroad yards where the sound seemed to come from. I got with Deputy Allan Sweatt and was searching the tracks and cars, etc, then someone said the shots came from above. I then went to the Elm Street loading gates of the Texas School Book Depository where I met Deputies Ralph Walters, Luke Mooney, Eugene Boone and Sam Webster. We all went into the building and proceeded to the first floor by way of the stairs. I jumped out of the first window onto the roof of the adjoining covered loading dock. I then searched the roof for any expended shell cases, as at the time we were trying to find just where the shots came from and if they were fired from the west side of the building they possibly could have fallen onto this roof. Finding no shells, I then climbed into the window and started searching the first floor, with an unknown DPD detective. Then learning other officers were searching this first floor, I went to the top floor to start down with each floor. Looking over the 7th floor to no avail, I came down to the 6th floor and while searching this floor.

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/weatherf.htm

Edited February 18, 2006 by Robin Unger

[Lee Forman]

Hey Robin.

I always wondered if the west side may have been used - I wish I knew which window is was that was allegedly removed by Byrd. Also wonder what the radio call meant about the West side. Also why it was so important to have Norman, Jarman and Williams run there. Anyway, Weatherford? How did he get from the rooftop of the County Records building so fast?

I heard a loud report which I thought was a railroad torpedo, as it sounded as if it came from the railroad yard. Thinking this was a heck of a time for one to go off, then I heard a 2nd report which had more of an echo report and thought to myself that this was a rifle, and I started towards the corner when I heard the 3rd report. By this time I was running towards the railroad yards where the sound seemed to come from.

Separate topic...

The officers whom tried to go up the grassy knoll was Bobby Hargis. He fell down twice because the area at the knoll was still wet from the allnight light rain. I had to get up at 4:30 am to get to the pressroom at City Hall to see what might of happened overnight. ...On the item about the motorcycle policemen going up the knoll, Bobby Hargis tried to run up the hill and he slipped and fell twiche and the third try, he used all fours legs and hands and was able to get to the top. There were several bullets and hulls around the Plaza. Several more than just three. to have witnessed the bikes crashing the curb and trying to ride up the knoll - how did you hear about that? From Bobby Hargis....

...

From McAdams:

The Three Tramps

They don't look sinister in the photos: the three hobos arrested in a train yard near Dealey Plaza in the wake of the assassination. But if you have a very active imagination, and if you are quite convinced that there must have been sinister goings-on in and around Dealey Plaza, the tramps can look very suspicious indeed. But in reality, there is no longer any mystery surrounding the three men.

Sam Pate:

The four hobos that were in the railyards behind the Depository and were taken to the County Sheriffs office and a few minutes later were released. All of them had earphones on and had new shoes on too.

- Did you see the tramps? Why do you say 4 tramps? Well, I was parked at the rear of the Schoolbook depository and some officers found the guys in a railroad boxcar behind the Depository, a little farther north of the Depository. A DPD Officer ushered four men to the Sheriffs Office. They looked like characters and the officer told the dispatcher that they were tramps and they were being taken into custody to interrogate the guys.

- lee

[Duke Lane]

“RESOLVED, That the House of Representatives of the 76th Texas Legislature hereby honor the memory of George Faithon Lucas and extend sincere sympathy to the members of his family: to his daughter and son-in-law, Carolyn Lucas Bass and John R. Bass, Sr.; to his grandson, John R. Bass, Jr., and his wife, Eloise Barry Bass; to his granddaughter, Sarah Elizabeth Bass; to his brother and sister-in-law, Faithon P. Lucas, Jr., and Evelyn Dees Lucas; to his sisters and brother-in-law, Elizabeth Faithon Lucas, Mary Lucas Barunes, Helen Lucas Pappas, and Pete H. Pappas; to his sister-in-law, Ethel Zotos Lucas; and to his 17 nieces and nephews.”

...

Dallas History Message Board

Re: Lucas B&B

Posted By: Lee Chevalier <lee.c2.chevalier@mail.sprint.com>

Date: Thursday, 12 September 2002, at 12:27 p.m.

In Response To: Re: Lucas B&B (Jerry Felts)

Actually, the Lucas family, though dispersed, is still in several food operations in/around DFW. They have that lovely Greek habit of large families, all tied to one another in sometimes remote ways. ... The last B&B location, since filled by Pappadeaux, included a separate cocktail lounge and the breakfast room replete with Miss Polly and other "Flo"-type waitpersons.

A potentially meaningless aside: the Pappas family has quite a large collection of restaurants of various types in and around Dallas, including Pappadeaux (seafood and Cajun), Pappas (Greek), Pappacitos (Mexican) and others. As to the other part of the family mentioned in the 76th Legislature's resolution - the Basses - I don't know if there's any connection, but the Bass family is one of the "old money" families in the region and is quite generous in its support of the arts, historical preservation and other civic endeavors. (They are also filthy rich.)

The new Bass Performing Arts Center in Fort Worth is one of the most beautiful and undoubtedly enduring (the stone walls' thickness is measured in feet!) memorial buildings that has ever graced the city or even the State of Texas. If you are ever in Texas, put it at the top of your "must see" list together with the Alamo and, of course, Dealey Plaza!