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Lee Forman

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  1. Small update on Jesse James Williams account - the kitchenette motel referred to in the 'mandolin playing incident' appears to fit in very nicely with the Grande court Tourist Lodge, 1401 N Zang Boulevard. From the Baker Hotel [gone] on Ackard and Commerce, the Grand Court would have indeed been a white kitchenette style motor lodge, on the right after crossing the Houston St Viaduct. Torn down quite some time ago - could dovetail with this other account below - but wondering if anyone has ever seen this motel referenced anywhere? Yesterday, November 23, 1963, I was standing on the terrace of the small park on Elm Street to watch the President's motorcade. The President's car had just come up in front of me when I heard a shot and saw the President slump down in the car and heard Mrs. Kennedy say, "Oh, no," then a second shot and then I hit the ground as I realized these were shots. Then all of the people started running up the terrace away from the President's car and I got up and started running also, not realizing what had happened. In just a few moments the President's car sped off and everyone was just running around towards the railroad tracks and I knew that they had somebody trapped up there. I imagine I stayed there 15 or 20 minutes and then went over on Houston Street to where I had my truck parked. I had just pulled away from the curb and was headed toward the Houston street viaduct [sic] when an automobile that had 3 men in it pulled away from the curb in a burst of speed, passing me on the right side, which was very dangerous at that point, then got in front of me, and it seemed then as an afterthought, slowed in a big hurry in front of me as though realizing they would be conspicuous in speeding. These three men were of slender build and seemed to be very excited in talking and motioning to each other. They went on across the Houston Street Viaduct and I turned off at Marsalis Street exit [sic] and they continued on going towards Zangs Blvd. They were in a 1961 or 1962 Chevrolet sedan, maroon in color. I [cross-out] don't believe I could identify these men, but I do believe I could identify the automobile if I saw it again.
  2. Hi Karl. So, among other things, I understood from one conversation with GPH that he suggested to Stone during the filming - since you have all of these various actors out here with cameras - why not load them with film and have them take photos? That's what it appears you have here. Best I can offer. Chairs. - lee
  3. Lee Farley - many thanks, I believe you have successfully connected the dots here - the original 'statement' being hearsay reported officially through another, followed by a series of interviews. There was, among the Baylor docs you cited, this handwritten affidavit signed and initialed by Carr - which counters the statements made earlier by Mary Sue Brown - and Carr provides clarification in this hand written version as well. Hence the linear sequence of reports available by Carr is consistent - the 1963 statements he denies in his first reports in 1964 are not his direct statements. The grey colored Rambler IS placed down Commerce on Record st by Carr - contrary to his later Clay Shaw account - in this handwritten and signed version. Further [despite a photographic record of what appears to be a Rambler parked on the Elm St extension parked in the opposite direction than Carr's later account] it failed to mesh with the account provided later by Brennan in his book [concerning a 55 - 57 Oldsmobile] which maaaaybe can still work with Bowers cited '59 Olds wagon [12:00pm]. Curiously enough, if you read Page 17 - his description of the man seen is not consistent with the alleged sniper window - even if we were to credit his recollection as being off [he cites the Top floor, which = 7th], he is clear that the man 'not in the end window' but in the 'second window over' from Houston. Just an aside. I don't know whether or not the 7th floor would have been visible from his location or not [and don't really care] - unfortunately, I see that it's not possible to make much use of Carr's Clay Shaw 'rambling' - which is a pity. Left with the impression that he may have indeed witnessed Johnson's henchman - not much value otherwise. http://contentdm.baylor.edu/cdm4/document.php?CISOROOT=/15poage-arm&CISOPTR=33901&REC=2 - lee
  4. sigh...guess I should spend some more time reading through the original post - and thanks Duke, Bill, Greg, Tom etc.. Still a troubling sequence - concerning this FBI report of 1/64 11/22/63 - JFK assassinated 11/30/63 - FBI has a one page report of some kind as per the RIF 1/9/64 - Denies making statements about having seen anyone exit the TSBD and get into a grey car. Would need to understand what statement Carr is denying. In this account he moves quickly to ground level. 2/4/64 - has the bit about the suspect he witnessed on 6 walking to a Rambler parked on Record st - nothing about TSBD exit and Rambler parked there. 2/19/69 - Clay Shaw trial - seeming reversal If he is denying having had made statements in Jan of 1964, than logically there should be a record of a statement which would precede that date.
  5. I prefer to reserve judgement until after I can get a look at the first FBI report. There are two essential disconnects between his 1964 account and Clay Shaw - namely: 1. In the Clay Shaw account, he is on the 7th floor of the new courts building - observing everything, including the Elm St extension and Rambler and the twitchy character walking up Houston and then down Commerce until he is out of view. No car - pun intended. Never mentions leaving his location on the 7th floor. 2. In the FBI version, he begins on the 7th floor and ends at street level. For him to witness the man walking up Houston and down Commerce and enter a Rambler, if the man passed him on Houston walking toward him, he would have had to have followed the man. If I had to chose, I like number 1 better - and concerning the affidavit, as mentioned here - not signed by Carr. This may not be immediately solvable - however, despite his comments on the military records, etc., I am not inclined to lean towards trusting a 1964 FBI affidavit concerning what Carr said as being accurate, or 'unspoiled' with the insertion of true details Carr provided twisted as I said to create a different truth. I can cite Craig here in support as being just one witness to changes made in his account. If the one pager contains very little info - then it looks like it's going to need to stay unresolved. If we were able to discount this FBI document, we'd have ONE Rambler on the Elm St extension, heading around the back of the TSBD, exiting on Houston with three men - returning within minutes, south on Elm, minus 2 passengers, to stop and pick up an Oswald look-a-like. If nothing else, finding this scenario very interesting - sorry for the crude diagram using Google Maps - anyone remember the location of the old Greyhound Bus Station?
  6. Many thanks Greg and Josiah - there are of course, a few problems here - the first of which consists of the date - the FBI RIF I cited is November of 1963 - the FBI report 1964. Too bad Carr isn't around to ask - but seems highly dubious that Carr would have known about where this individual went unless he followed him - almost as if the facts were mixed to create a 'new truth.' I wonder if Carr had the opportunity to see this version - as it seems to me that there is a very nice case for a Rambler to have been parked on the Elm st extension - facing North. That this car saw three passengers leave the TSBD, follow the Elm extension to the back exit, and drive away on Houston, North - and then return once 2 passengers had been dropped [Greyhound bus station within blocks] returned on Elm to whistle and pick up a fourth Oswald looking character - while a fifth individual had walked away down Commerce and out of view. It seems plausible to mesh with Brennan's later account [save for the model of the vehicle and potentially it's position], Robinson and Cooper, Craig, Helen, etc. -- Save for this document - which places Carr at street level [which doesn't jive well], and has him knowing where this individual ended up - meaning he followed him - and seemingly changes the age/race of the driver - I smell Denmark rot here. Need to determine if this is the 1963 FBI file cited or if this may be different...a signed copy would be nice for sure.
  7. Hi all. Does anyone have the report cited by this RIF below? Spartacus has a quote from Carr which I have been unable to verify. I cannot find where Carr told the FBI, or anyone else, any such thing. Aside from the Clay Shaw transcript, the only other genuine source data I can find is a reference to that one page FBI report - which I was unable to find at Ferrell. I could be wrong - but the source of the quote may, ironically, have come from an article written by Armstrong about getting the facts right. http://spot.acorn.net/jfkplace/09/fp.back_issues/25th_Issue/facts.html Anyone know where Armstrong got this info? Does CD385 refer to the disc that came with his book [which I no longer have], or to the original FBI report? Here's what he said at the Clay Shaw trial summarized and quoted: - was watching from his position on the 7th floor of the new courthouse building on Houston - saw three men exit the TSBD and get into the Rambler and drive it NORTH - a fourth man walked up Houston and banged a left on Commerce and Carr watched him until he was out of sight Would very much appreciate any additional genuine reference material which would support the quote from Armstrong's article, and an understanding of the source data.
  8. I don't think it was any of the choices so named here.... - lee
  9. I had heard the enema thing before from a different source - so I found it very interesting. What I take exception with is that 2nd hand information is being received as 'fuel for conspiracy theorists.' If a flightplan could be discovered, or additional validation of some kind - wouldn't that be more in line with solving the mystery surrounding her death / homicide? Instead, it's all a funny game for the eye rolling journalists. "Mr Platts suggests the reason for the second trip, after the well-documented one just days earlier, might have been because Sinatra had not managed to convince her to keep quiet about her affairs with the Kennedys." Well - I could be way off base, but the way I gathered it, Sinatra was acting as cutout for the mob and trying to get Kennedy to play ball - it was discovered that Ol Blue Eyes was actually full of brown, and it was evident that his days of influence were over - the idea of Sinatra trying to convince Monroe to be quiet about her affairs as some kind of motive is about as ludicrous as the idea of trying to ban chocolate milk from public schools because of it's sugar content, but allowing them to continue to sell / provide yogurt, jello and other foodstuffs with the known poison aspartame in it. - lee
  10. Amazing how quickly Wiki get's updated...Frank's son was just given the task of providing Mubarak the whisper.. Frank George Wisner II (born 1938) is an American businessman and former diplomat. He is the son of Frank Wisner (1909 – 1965). On 31 January 2011, he was sent to Egypt by President Barack Obama to negotiate a resolution to the popular protests against the regime that have swept the country.[1] A White House spokesman said that Wisner had vast experience in the region as well as close relationships with many Egyptians in and out of government. The New York Times reports that he is a personal friend of Egyptian president Hosni Mubarak.[2]
  11. Hey John! Based upon documents, Zaboth was Airtime's case officer. Beckhoff recommending Zaboth for Morales training assumes / implies a chain of command. Zaboth officially AM/WORLD 1964. I was under the impression that perhaps Irving was associated here - don't believe so - on the basis of the flight arranged by Zaboth for Airtime, etc. - best educated guess below. http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKhecksher.htm "Hecksher was CIA Station Chief in Japan (1959-60) before becoming involved in the project to overthrow Fidel Castro. As the case officer of Manuel Artime, Hecksher became involved in AM/WORLD in 1963. Carl E. Jenkins oversaw paramilitary support and also served as case officer Artime's second in command, Rafael Quintero. According to Larry Hancock (Someone Would Have Talked), Hecksher and Jenkins were both "involved in the Artime's initial travel to Europe for contact" with Rolando Cubela." HOWZDATGRABYA? - lee
  12. Nothing like seeing your thread highjacked by little people. The good news is that this type of setting, speaking personally, propels me into action - simply cannot stand the bs. So, I will make some inquiries and make some progress; after the intermittent fashion to which I am accustomed. Chairs and a bigtime Felix Unger. Got a few calls to make - and all thanks to this rubbish. - lee
  13. The car in your top left shot certainly looks to be the same...
  14. Hi Chris. The timestamp on those photos [minus Bell] would they be within 'moments' of the shooting? Do you have any high quality frames from the Towner film for that turn? - lee
  15. Yea, There's a lot more to Brennan than we've been told by Lone Nutters. Thanks to Ken Rahn for posting two chapters from his book. There must be even more interesting tidbits in the rest of the book if there's all that in two chapters. About that car again. IS there any photo evidence of a 55-57 Olds parked near the TSBD illegally with a cop standing next to it talking to the driver? BK Not that I am aware of Bill - the closest I think you can get to that is in examining the Croft photo of the area at the time [good luck with that]. Nothing visible [for what we have available] from Altgens. No clue what was on Moorman's #4. I think Robin has quite a lot of good material with respect to the rear of the TSBD - there was a loading dock there with a door.
  16. Man - you should have seen the oxymoron and not bothered. I had a rap with a former agent that published a novel [work of fiction] - it went through extensive sanitizing - he couldn't even wrap his head around why certain parts were omitted. The only CIA secret I am interested in seeing disclosed is with respect to AMHINT. I would also like to see how the books and channels were managed for Greyston Lynch and Tex Robertson during the BOP initiative. Lynch put it right out there... Not placing any bets. - lee "We had been operating a damned Murder Inc. in the Caribbean." Bull Johnson, Prince of Thieves
  17. No worries Mark. I personally couldn't give a rats from that perspective - but I understand your point. Accuracy is always important for it's own sake. And my edit may have removed my thanks to Phil Hopley who again came through with the info. May have another item worth posting here - need to dig though... Found it - as sent by the Olds group, a visual of the vehicle type in question - and I learned also that this particular model, based upon that VIN, was not equipped with the electric window for the rear gate. - lee
  18. Whoops - you are correct - I got it backwards Mark - the reason for the post was Budget Auto sales and the addresses - which are different than what is listed today. Amended...
  19. With many thanks to Phil Hopley - source is the Greater Dallas Telephone Directory. - lee See corrected version... - lee
  20. This has already been covered elsewhere, including the action taken against the individual in question - the one attempting to make the phone call - as I recall he was demoted by Hoover - and there is a doc to that effect. Memory is telling me that this scenario may have been capture by Vince - it's of no consequence. But Peter's note is well taken and I also like to point it out as often as possible: SS were at fault in every possible way - from their late hours drinking hard liquor, the allowance of route despite publication, blaming the bubbletop and lack of protection on the alleged unconfirmed words of a dead man, the dogleg, the line-up, the lack of a reaction, Roberts pulling back Ready [plus his lies and his behavior at Parkland], braking the car, no one jumping out of their cars in DP, the race to get the corpse to the hospital - all without any consequence. The write-ups that followed championed these men as the ultimate warriors - brave to foolhardy, and absolved them of all blame - the height of journalistic hypocrisy. Cowards and fools, deserving of a permanent record of historical shame. Buffoons and a changing of the guard - traitors and cowards. Primary assignment - protect the Commander in Chief at all costs - it wasn't simply a failure, it was a total failure. All pensions should have been withheld. All records should have been made public. All involved in the drinking episodes the night prior should have been terminated - HOWEVER, what we have here is a facinating precedent - the only high profile job one can have in the US aside from Weatherman - where you can be totally wrong yet suffer no consequences, is as an SS agent - this should be clear to anyone considering the job - you screw up and the President gets killed, you are not to blame, and there will always be the next President that you can work for - so what's the big deal. Cowards and traitors - and with the subsequent gag order - not one that would do what was right.
  21. With many thanks to Phil Hopley - source is the Greater Dallas Telephone Directory. - lee
  22. Thanks Jim - that is great info also. My suspicion has always been that Williams in particular was used as the primary trail sweeper - his use of the words 'I believe" and 'I think' in his testimony - plus the photographic re-enactment, plus the surprise indicated by the Commission at the way Williams [and the others] answered certain questions was a strong indicator to me that there was serious coaching - with the aim at hiding whatever it was that went on - not only on 5, but earlier on 6 - plus creating the circumstantial case against Oswald. By way of example - as you pointed out, the affidavit and questions with respect to what was told to the Feds [Carver and Griffin? never saw an actual report - only references to these earlier questions] - doesn't add. Smacks of the set-up. Hemming was related a tale of being permitted to listen to one of the alleged hitters who was overcome with mirth and hysteria at the idea of the Boxes being used as a sniper's nest - Hemming said that this individual stated that it was a blind created by the workers in question for their use in privacy for viewing pornography. Wouldn't that be a kick in the head. It's only hearsay though - I don't know where such a recording would be. Hemming placed said shooter on the west side - which made the whole 'which window' situation interesting when Byrd removed a different window [as a token of history] - you'd think the guy would know. If you consider what Oswald relates - it also seems much more likely that one of these three [Williams] had lunch in the Domino room as usual. Not by himself up on a hot, dusty floor [where he'd also been stuck working all that morning], alone - and eating a chicken on the bone sandwich [as stated] in under 15 minutes. And Alyea made it clear - he was baffled as to why so many cops would inaccurately make statements about the chicken lunch being discovered on 5 and brought up to 6. What did Williams account buy? A clear 5 & 6 [where was Jack again?], an owner for the chicken lunch and soda bottle, and placement of the elevators at a minimum. And if we want to drag in Brennan [saw your article btw - fantastic stuff] - any decent attorney would have ripped him to shreds immediately upon noting that Brennan places BOTH Jarman and Norman in the 1) same window, and 2) and the wrong window entirely when compared to the [alleged] Dillard photo [which doesn't correlate to Powers] and the Ball re-enactment and their respective testimony. Here's one I haven't seen an answer for yet also - if Givens is across the street in a parking lot someplace, Jarman, Williams and Norman are all neatly accounted for on 6, then who did Couch see hanging out the window about, roughly, third or fourth floor in the middle of the south side? Mr. BELIN - Did you see any other people in any other window in the building? Mr. COUCH - Yes; I recall seeing - uh - some people standing in some of the other windows - about, roughly, third or fourth floor in the middle of the south side. I recall one - it looked like a negro boy with a white T-shirt leaning out one of those windows looking up - up to the windows above him. And who is the black man standing on the stairs with the other TSBD employees? lee
  23. According to their own statements to the Warren Commission - Norman was the only one to make this claim. Jarman Mr. JARMAN - Hank said, Harold Norman, rather, said that he thought the shots had came from above us, and I noticed that Bonnie Ray had a few debris in his head. It was sort of white stuff, or something, and I told him not to brush it out, but he did anyway. Mr. BALL - He had some white what, like plaster? Mr. JARMAN - Like some come off a brick or plaster or something. Mr. BALL - Did Norman say anything else that you remember? Mr. JARMAN - He said that he was sure that the shot came from inside the building because he had been used to guns and all that, and he said it didn't sound like it was too far off anyway. And so we ran down to the west side of the building. Mr. BALL - Did Norman say anything about hearing cartridges or ejection or anything like that, do you remember? Mr. JARMAN - That was after we got down to the west side of the building. ... Mr. JARMAN - He said it was something sounded like cartridges hitting the floor, and he could hear the action of the rifle, I mean the bolt, as it were pulled back, or something like that. Mr. BALL - Had you heard anything like that? Mr. JARMAN - No, sir; I hadn't ... Mr. BALL - When you were on the fifth floor, did you pay any attention to whether or not there was noise above you, before the shots were fired? Mr. JARMAN - No, sir; I didn't. Mr. BALL - In other words, if there was noise up there let's put it this way. If there had been any noise up there, you didn't notice it? Mr. JARMAN - No, sir; I didn't. Mr. BALL - Now after the shooting, did you hear any noise from upstairs? Mr. JARMAN - No, sir. Mr. BALL - Did you listen for any? Mr. JARMAN - No, sir. Mr. BALL - How long was it before you ran down to the west end, from the time of the shots until you ran down to the west end, about how much time do you think it was? Mr. BALL - After the third shot was fired I would say it was about a minute. Mr. McCLOY You have had military experience, haven't you? Mr. JARMAN - Yes, sir. Mr. McCLOY. And you can recognize rifle shots when you hear them? Mr. JARMAN - Yes, sir. Mr. McCLOY - But you didn't hear, you didn't catch the sound of the bolt moving? Mr. JARMAN - No, sir. Williams Mr. BALL. Did you notice where did you think the shots came from? Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, the first shot-I really did not pay any attention to it, because I did not know what was happening. The second shot, it sounded like it was right in the building, the second and third shot. And it sounded-it even shook the building, the side we were on cement fell on my head. Mr. BALL. You say cement fell on your head? Mr. WILLIAMS. Cement, gravel, dirt, or something from the old building, because it shook the windows and everything. Harold was sitting next to me, and he said it came right from over our head. If you want to know my exact words, I could tell you. Mr. BALL. Tell us. Mr. WILLIAMS. My exact words were, "No bull xxxx." And we jumped up. Mr. BALL. Norman said what? Mr. WILLIAMS. He said it came directly over our heads. "I can even hear the shell being ejected from the gun hitting the floor." But I did not hear the shell being ejected from the gun, probably because I wasn't paying attention. Mr. BALL. Norman said he could hear it? Mr. WILLIAMS. He said he could hear it. He was directly under the window that Oswald shot from. Mr. BALL. He was directly under. He told you as he got up from the window that he could hear the shells ejected from the gun? Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes; he did. Mr. BALL. After he made the statement that you mentioned, he thought it came from overhead, and you made some statement, did Jarman say anything? Mr. WILLIAMS. I think Jarman, he I think he moved before any of us. He moved towards us, and he said, "Man, somebody is shooting at the President." And I think I said again, "No bull xxxx." And then we all kind of got excited, you know, and, as I remember, I don't remember him saying that he thought the shots came from overhead. But we all decided we would run down to the west side of the building. ... Mr. BALL. Well, did Norman say anything about hearing the bolt of the rifle? Mr. WILLIAMS. I don't remember him saying anything about it. Mr. BALL. But you heard him say he could hear the cartridges? Mr. WILLIAMS. I heard Harold Norman--pardon me, I thought you were saying James Jarman. Mr. BALL. Did Norman say anything about the bolt? Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes. He said he could hear the rifle, and it sounded like it was right above. He said he could hear the rifle being ejected, the shells hitting the floor. Mr. BALL. But you could not hear this? Mr. WILLIAMS. No; I could not hear it. Mr. BALL. That was an old floor, wasn't it? Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes; it was. Mr. BALL. Could you see light through the floor from the fifth to the sixth floor as you would look above your window? Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, at the time, that day of November 22d, I did not notice that. But the other day when you were questioning me, even after the thick new floor that was put over the old floor on the sixth floor, well, you still could see light. And the new floor extended a little beyond the old floor. So therefore I would say that you could see light much more when the old floor was there. Mr. BALL. When you were there the other day, you looked up through a crack in the ceiling of the fifth floor? Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. Mr. BALL. Could you see the new floor? Mr. WILLIAMS. You could. You could see daylight through. Mr. BALL. Now, where was that crack with reference to the wall of the fifth floor? Mr. WILLIAMS. With reference to the wall of the fifth floor, the crack that speaking about was directly over my head, and also directly over Norman's head.
  24. Someone whom I would consider the SME made it clear - 'difficult, but not impossible.' And the description could fit in with the Airport at Route 77 - which had a long stretch of the construction underway for Route 35 - the Lou Foote airport - which was not paved at the time, but all sand. I provided this information to Robert Vinson - however, he is not well. and it was of no effect. Robert - many thanks. I consider this thread a general dumping ground and sooner or later, something will eventually make sense. As someone I consider highly once told me - 'there are no coincidences in this business.' - lee FYI - Robert Vinson passed away - received an email from his daughter.
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