Curtain Rods

[Mark Carter]

Anybody who has been interested In John Kennedy,s assassination for any length of time must have heard the story of the curtain rods that Lee Harvey Oswald was supposed to have carried into work the day of John Kennedy's assassination. What is important for researchers to remember is that Oswald only worked in the Texas School Book Depository Building for five weeks before the assassination happened. It was Ruth Paine that got Oswald the Job there and then through her friend Linnie Mae Randle got him a ride to work with Randle's younger brother Wesley Frazier because Oswald didn't have a car.

The morning of the assassination when Wesley Frazier picked up Oswald he supposedly had a long package wrapped in brown paper that Oswald told Frazier were "curtain rods." Frazier then told the Warren Commission that when they got to work that he and Oswald walked through the side entrance of the TSBD building together and Oswald carried this long package tucked up under his arm as they walked throuh the side entrance together.

The problem with this story is that one of Oswald's co-workers Jack Doughtery watched Lee walk through the side entrance of the building at 8:00 AM and he testified before the Commission that Lee was "alone" as he walked into the building and he had nothing in his hands and was carrying nothing! So Jack Dougherty was saying that Wesley Frazier was lying about the curtain rods. Jack Doughtery worked there for "seven years" before the assassination happened. Wesley Frazier only worked there for two months before the assassination happened! Who do you believe? From my experience of studying the testimony of the employees of the TSBD building is that the people that worked there for only a month or two were constantly caught lying to the Commission. It seems like these "short term" people were planted in the building.

So what I am saying here in my opinion is that the curtain rod story was a "frame job" created by Ruth Paine her best friend Randle and her younger brother Frazier!!! The curtain rods were supposed to be the rifle that Oswald used to shoot the President with. Michael and Ruth Paine were high ranking members of the Communist Party. So what I am asking here is why are there no connections between the Communist Party and the assassination ever mentioned in any of the books and documentaries about the assassination. In my new book I have uncovered hundreds of links between the JFK assassination and the Communist Party.

[Guest Stephen Turner]

. Michael and Ruth Paine were high ranking members of the Communist Party.

Hi Mark, welcome to the Forum. got anything to back up the above quote. Steve.

[Jack White]

Mark...you have the story mostly correct.

I think if you check, you will find that there was a slight mist that morning

and that LHO hurried a few yards ahead of Frazier. Their parking place

was about three blocks to the north, in an area of railroad tracks, and

I recall Frazier saying that he lingered to watch a locomotive switching

some boxcars, and Oswald got far ahead of him, and entered the TSBD

first. This is strictly from memory.

Jack

[Greg Parker]

Mark...you have the story mostly correct.

I think if you check, you will find that there was a slight mist that morning

and that LHO hurried a few yards ahead of Frazier. Their parking place

was about three blocks to the north, in an area of railroad tracks, and

I recall Frazier saying that he lingered to watch a locomotive switching

some boxcars, and Oswald got far ahead of him, and entered the TSBD

first. This is strictly from memory.

Jack

"Mostly correct"? Only if the Pope is mostly Jewish...

Lessee...

1 "The morning of the assassination when Wesley Frazier picked up Oswald he supposedly had a long package wrapped in brown paper that Oswald told Frazier were 'curtain rods.'"

Incorrect. Frazier said that Oswald told him it was curtain rods. Whether or not Oswald did tell him that comes down to Frazier's word. It is not a proven fact that Oswald

said any such thing.

2. "Frazier then told the Warren Commission that when they got to work that he and Oswald walked through the side entrance of the TSBD building together and Oswald carried this long package tucked up under his arm as they walked throuh the side entrance together."

Incorrect. Here's are the relevant sections of Frazier's testimony:

Mr. Ball.

When you got to the parking lot who got out of the car first?

Mr. Frazier.

He did.

Mr. Ball.

You didn't get out immediately then?

Mr. Frazier.

No, sir; I was sitting there, say, looked at my watch and somewhere around 7 or 8 minutes until and I saw we had a few minutes and I sat there, and as I say you can see the Freeway, Stemmons Freeway, from the warehouse and also the trains coming back and forth and I was sitting there.

What I was doing--glanced up and watching cars for a minute but I was letting my engine run and getting to charge up my battery, because when you stop and start you have to charge up your battery.

and

Mr. Frazier.

He got out of the car and he was wearing the jacket that has the big sleeves in them and he put the package that he had, you know, that he told me was curtain rods up under his arm, you know, and so he walked down behind the car and standing over there at the end of the cyclone fence waiting for me to get out of the car, and so quick as I cut the engine off and started out of the car, shut the door just as I was starting out just like getting out of the car, he started walking off and so I followed him in.

So, eventually there he kept getting a little further ahead of me and I noticed we had plenty of time to get there because it is not too far from the Depository and usually I walk around and watch them switching the trains because you have to watch where you are going if you have to cross the tracks.

One day you go across one track and maybe there would be some cars sitting there and there would be another diesel coming there, so you have to watch when you cross the tracks, I just walked along and I just like to watch them switch the cars, so eventually he kept getting a little further ahead of me and by that time we got down there pretty close to the Depository Building there, I say, he would be as much as, I would say, roughly 50 feet in front of me but I didn't try to catch up with him because I knew I had plenty of time so I just took my time walking up there.

He did go on to say that they had usually walked together. Perhaps that's what confused Mark. And perhaps Oswald carried curtain rods to work every week, too...

3. The problem with this story is that one of Oswald's co-workers Jack Doughtery watched Lee walk through the side entrance of the building at 8:00 AM and he testified before the Commission that Lee was 'alone' as he walked into the building and he had nothing in his hands and was carrying nothing! So Jack Dougherty was saying that Wesley Frazier was lying about the curtain rods.

As already shown, Frazier never said he walked in with Oswald.

As for Dougherty, his testimony reveals something less possitive than Mark's spin on it.

Mr. BALL - Now, is that a very definite impression that you saw him that morning when he came to work?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, oh--it's like this--I'll try to explain it to you this way--- you see, I was sitting on the wrapping table and when he came in the door, I just caught him out of the corner of my eye---that's the reason why I said it that way.

and on Oswald carrying anything...

Mr. BALL - Do you recall him having anything in his hand?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, I didn't see anything, if he did.

He is in effect saying, "I only saw him briefly out of the corner of my eye, and if he was carrying anything, I missed seeing it." Hardly good enough to brand Frazier a xxxx on that point. Besides, he did have his lunch...

4. "the people that worked there for only a month or two were constantly caught lying to the Commission."

It wasn't only short-termers who lied as implied here. Others who lied were Roy Samson Truly, a 30 year veteran of the TSBD, and one of three directors of the company and; Charles Givens, who had been employed there off and on for 6 years. On the hand, you have Bonnie Ray Williams - presumably one of Mark's short-termer's - who actually provided a shining, if all too overlooked, scintilla of truth when he testified:

Mr. BALL. You went to work there. That is about a block, a block and a half north?

Mr. WILLIAMS. A block and a half.

Mr. BALL. North of the corner of Houston and Elm?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And how long did you work at that place?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, I worked there until business began to get slow. I think that was--it was before November. I think it was some time during October. I am not sure.

Mr. BALL. And what did they put you to work at at that time?

Mr. WILLIAMS. They called me up to help lay a floor on the fifth floor, they wanted more boards over it. As I say, business was slow, and they were trying to keep us on without laying us off at the time. So I was using the saw, helping cut wood and lay wood.

So much for it being a busy period and needing a temp. In fact, business was so slow, Shorty Norman spent most of his time (according to his own testimony, and that of Williams), not filling orders, but in "shooting the breeze" with the floor layers. Nor was it ever policy to "try and keep [staff] on without laying them off" during slow periods. Givens for example, testified that during past slow periods, he had been laid off, then rehired when things picked up again.

5. "So what I am saying here in my opinion is that the curtain rod story was a "frame job" created by Ruth Paine her best friend Randle and her younger brother Frazier!!!"

Can't have it both ways. Either Oswald did tell Frazier he had curtian rods (as asserted by Mark in the 2nd para of his post) or he didn't.

6. "Michael and Ruth Paine were high ranking members of the Communist Party."

This is the most egregious error in the post. Michael Paine gave the game away on his own politics when he spouted JBS propaganda as fact before the commission. Apart from that, there's nary a tittle of evidence to suggest either were pro-Communist -- let alone high ranking members of the CPUSA [note to Jack: is this what you really consider "mostly correct"? Heaven help us...]

7. "So what I am asking here is why are there no connections between the Communist Party and the assassination ever mentioned in any of the books and documentaries about the assassination. In my new book I have uncovered hundreds of links between the JFK assassination and the Communist Party."

Such connections are mentioned in many books and documentaries. Hope those links Mark has found are a tad more solid than the Paines' being high level commies...

Edited April 21, 2006 by Greg Parker

[Norman T. Field]

The only thing suggested by membership in the American communist party is the presence of the FBI. The party was riddled by FBI informants and agents. Without their dues, the party probably would have collapsed.

[Duke Lane]

[Every]body ... must have heard the story of the curtain rods ....

... Frazier then told the Warren Commission that when they got to work that he and Oswald walked through the side entrance of the TSBD building together and Oswald carried this long package tucked up under his arm as they walked throuh the side entrance together.

The problem with this story is that one of Oswald's co-workers Jack Doughtery watched Lee walk through the side entrance of the building at 8:00 AM .... [Oswald only worked in the Texas School Book Depository Building for five weeks before the assassination happened.] Jack Doughtery worked there for "seven years" before the assassination happened. Wesley Frazier only worked there for two months before the assassination happened! Who do you believe?

From my experience of studying the testimony of the employees of the TSBD building is that the people that worked there for only a month or two were constantly caught lying to the Commission. It seems like these "short term" people were planted in the building.

... In my new book I have uncovered hundreds of links between the JFK assassination and the Communist Party.

Gosh, one can only hope that the "new book" is more thoroughly researched and substantiated than this post, and that the verity of various people's statements is qualified by more than just their age or "time on the scene!"

[Jack White]

Mark...you have the story mostly correct.

I think if you check, you will find that there was a slight mist that morning

and that LHO hurried a few yards ahead of Frazier. Their parking place

was about three blocks to the north, in an area of railroad tracks, and

I recall Frazier saying that he lingered to watch a locomotive switching

some boxcars, and Oswald got far ahead of him, and entered the TSBD

first. This is strictly from memory.

Jack

Above I was stating ONLY that "Mark" related the OFFICIAL STORY

of the CURTAIN RODS accurately. I was not commenting on other

aspects of his posting, such as his suspicion of a "communist" connection

or that the Paines were communists. THAT COMMENT HAD NOTHING TO

DO WITH THE CURTAIN ROD STORY!

I was pointing out that any testimony that Frazier and LHO ENTERED

the TSBD TOGETHER WAS FALSE. Frazier lingered far behind while

watching a switch engine move a train. Oswald was seen entering

the building ALONE and NOT CARRYING A PACKAGE. The curtain

rod story was a fabrication BECAUSE THE PLOTTERS NEEDED A

WAY THAT THE MC RIFLE GOT INTO THE BUILDING.

Some are not interested in comprehending what is written, but only

in making scurrilous personal attacks. Pity.

Jack

Edited April 23, 2006 by Jack White

[Duke Lane]

Mark...you have the story mostly correct.

I think if you check, you will find that there was a slight mist that morning and that LHO hurried a few yards ahead of Frazier. Their parking place was about three blocks to the north, in an area of railroad tracks, and

I recall Frazier saying that he lingered to watch a locomotive switching some boxcars, and Oswald got far ahead of him, and entered the TSBD first. This is strictly from memory.

Jack

Above I was stating ONLY that "Mark" related the OFFICIAL STORY of the CURTAIN RODS accurately. I was not commenting on other aspects of his posting, such as his suspicion of a "communist" connection or that the Paines were communists. THAT COMMENT HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH THE CURTAIN ROD STORY!

I was pointing out that any testimony that Frazier and LHO ENTERED the TSBD TOGETHER WAS FALSE. Frazier lingered far behind while watching a switch engine move a train. Oswald was seen entering the building ALONE and NOT CARRYING A PACKAGE. The curtain rod story was a fabrication BECAUSE THE PLOTTERS NEEDED A WAY THAT THE MC RIFLE GOT INTO THE BUILDING.

Some are not interested in comprehending what is written, but only in making scurrilous personal attacks. Pity.

Jack

Just to complicate matters a tad, if Frazier watched a locomotive switching boxcars, by his own testimony that was a peripheral action to his running his engine to recharge the battery (an old generator system, remember). What he actually said - with the "filler" greyed out below - was:

I was sitting there

, say, looked at my watch and [it was] somewhere around 7 or 8 minutes until [eight o'clock]

and I saw we had a few minutes

and I sat there, and as I say

you can see the Freeway, Stemmons Freeway, from the warehouse and also the trains coming back and forth

and I was sitting there

.

What I was doing--

glanced up and watching cars for a minute

but I was letting my engine run

and getting to charge up my battery, because when you stop and start you have to charge up your battery

.

"Cars" might be railroad cars, or they might be cars that he could see on the Stemmons Freeway. Either way, he only "glanced up" at them; it was not how he was passing the time.

Frazier did not "linger far behind while watching a switch engine move a train" (my, how we can add details that aren't in evidence, eh?). He did say that he "usually" liked to do that, but he stated under oath that he was a mere 50 feet behind Oswald when Oswald entered the TSBD:

[Oswald] got out of the car

and he was wearing the jacket that has the big sleeves in them

and he put the package

that he had, you know, that he told me was curtain rods

up under his arm,

you know, and so

he walked down behind the car and standing over there at the end of the cyclone fence waiting for me to get out of the car, and so

quick as I cut the engine off and started out of the car, shut the door

just as I was

starting out just like

getting out of the car, he started walking off and so I followed him in.

So, eventually there he kept getting a little further ahead of me

and I noticed we had plenty of time to get there because it is not too far from the Depository and

usually

I walk around and watch them switching the trains

because you have to watch where you are going if you have to cross the tracks

.

One day you go across one track and maybe there would be some cars sitting there and there would be another diesel coming there, so you have to watch when you cross the tracks, I just walked along and I just like to watch them switch the cars,

so eventually he kept getting a little further ahead of me and by that time we got down there pretty close to the Depository Building there, I say, he would be as much as, I would say, roughly

50 feet in front of me

but I didn't try to catch up with him

because I knew I had plenty of time so

I just took my time walking up there.

[emphases added]

Despite all the extraneous verbiage in his account, Frazier never said that he'd watched a switch engine move boxcars or anything of the sort that morning.

It is a distinct possibility that Oswald hurried somewhat ahead simply because he had to attend to a call of nature. Not only have I heard that second-hand from Frazier, but Jack Daugherty also testified to the fact that going to the men's room was the first thing that LHO did as he came in the door that morning.

Proof of the second-hand story I'd heard? Maybe not, but at least some credibility and substantiation given it. If, that is, you can believe anything at all that Jack Daugherty said. Besides Buell Frazier, Daugherty was the only person who said he saw LHO entering the TSBD that morning: one saw a package, the other didn't. Which shall you believe ... and more importantly, why?

Moreover, the police - sorry, I don't recall which one right now, but I'm inclined toward saying it was Will "No Notes" Fritz - said that LHO denied taking curtain rods to work that morning, and had said that Frazier had been "mistaken" on that, that it had actually been another morning he'd brought them. Machts nichts, of course, since there's no proof of anything Oswald did or didn't say while being interrogated, but there you have it.

Finally, Jack, you note that "the curtain rod story was a fabrication because the plotters needed a way that the MC rifle got into the building." Fair enough ... but how did it come to pass that they managed to get 19-year-old farm-boy Frazier, who was all of two months new to the Big City, to not only concoct that story but moreover, to steadfastly deny that it was long enough to actually contain even the disassembled Carcano?

It seems like, in that scenario, Frazier defeated his own purported purpose: put forth the story and then deny the details that make it possible. It makes one wonder why those apparently resourceful enough to murder a President and get away with it for 40+ years would entrust such an important part of the mission to a young hick who talked too much (look at all that grey text above!!) and couldn't keep his facts straight. I've also never heard it said that Frazier was well rewarded for his part in the conspiracy and cover-up either.

Frankly, it makes better sense that the "NO curtain rods" story is the preferred one, and that Daugherty not only lied about not seeing a package in LHO's hands, but was actually the receipient of such said package, either directly from LHO on his way in the door, or indirectly if LHO simply left it in the wash room to be exchanged or picked up later by someone he knew or not, or saw or not. (That scenario if fairly easy to construct - right up to the time of the shooting - using what information is on record, actually.)

In the end result, you're right, of course - and Mark is wrong - that LHO and Frazier entered the TSBD together, but the devil is in the details and - just as you say - one must try to "comprehend what is written" by at least reading what actually IS written!

[Greg Parker]

Duke:

Jack Dougherty also testified to the fact that going to the men's room was the first thing that LHO did as he came in the door that morning.

That may be in one of his statements -- I haven't checked, but I cannot find it anywhere in his WC testimony.

What he did testify to was that he only caught a glimple of Oswald as he entered. If it was just a glimpse, I see no reason to label him a xxxx for saying he didn't see anything being carried.

I believe he was carrying his lunch as he (is alleged to have) told Fritz. By odd coincidence, Frazier described his lunch as being exactly the same as what Oswald claimed he himself had. Pity no one could corroborate Frazier here as -- for the first time -- he ate alone in the basement that day.

This would mean (a) Frazier did see Oswald with a bag - perhaps an oversized one for a lunch bag - but that's what it was ( Dougherty missed seeing it in his glance at Oswald © Frazier was pressured to lie about his lunch and it's contents by saying it was his - presumably in case someone remembered seeing it in the Domino room where it was left (d) his testimony re the size of Oswald's bag was to the best of his memory and (e) he either did misremember what Oswald said was in it, or was also pressured to say he was told it was curtain rods, but not about the size of the bag - this aspect being less important as they could always claim he was mistaken about that.

Norman:

The only thing suggested by membership in the American communist party is the presence of the FBI. The party was riddled by FBI informants and agents. Without their dues, the party probably would have collapsed.

Very true. However, the fact remains, the Paines were never members -- high ranking or otherwise.

Jack:

Above I was stating ONLY that "Mark" related the OFFICIAL STORY of the CURTAIN RODS accurately.

No you didn't. You said: "Mark...you have the story mostly correct." The "story" involved more than just the curtain rods. It included, among other things, that the Paines were high ranking CPUSA officials. What you went on to say about the curtain rods seemed to be the only fault you found with the "story" in toto. And then your memory failed you on accuracy. Don't worry. Happens to me, too.

Jack again:

Some are not interested in comprehending what is written, but only in making scurrilous personal attacks. Pity.

Yes, this Jack Attack! was brought to you by the makers of Paranoia.

"Jack Attack!" is a registered TM of The Agency. Users must be licenced. Conditions apply

Lighten up, you poor sensitive soul. I comprehended perfectly. If you were only referencing the "curtain rod" story, you should have said so. Or just quoted that part of the post.

[John Geraghty]

Ian Griggs article 'The paper bag that never was' pretty much sums this matter up. It's in Ians book 'No case to answer' or available online here.

http://www.geocities.com/whiskey99a/bagpaper.html

All the best,

John

[Mark Carter]

Michael Paine's father George Lyman Paine ran for office as a Communist during the early 1940s. Ruth Paine's maiden name was Hyde. The Hyde family has a long association with the Communist Party here in the U.S. To say that Michael and Ruth Paine had no association with the Communist Party is absoutly not true. Being a member of the Communist Party here in the United States could land you in jail. It is something that people kept a secret.

Oswald did tell Frazier that the package were curtain rods and if he walked into the building with them why didn't Jack Dougherty see them. Even though I made a mistake about them entering together.

Frazier first heard that Oswald was coming to work at the TSBD building from a "neighbor" well that neighbor must have been Ruth Paine who got Oswald the job there. What other neighbor could he have been talking about? She only lived a half a block away. I don't think that Frazier was being truthful when he testified to the Commission that he never met Ruth Paine

[Greg Parker]

Michael Paine's father George Lyman Paine ran for office as a Communist during the early 1940s. Ruth Paine's maiden name was Hyde. The Hyde family has a long association with the Communist Party here in the U.S. To say that Michael and Ruth Paine had no association with the Communist Party is absoutly not true. Being a member of the Communist Party here in the United States could land you in jail. It is something that people kept a secret.

Oswald did tell Frazier that the package were curtain rods and if he walked into the building with them why didn't Jack Dougherty see them. Even though I made a mistake about them entering together.

Frazier first heard that Oswald was coming to work at the TSBD building from a "neighbor" well that neighbor must have been Ruth Paine who got Oswald the job there. What other neighbor could he have been talking about? She only lived a half a block away. I don't think that Frazier was being truthful when he testified to the Commission that he never met Ruth Paine

Mark, once again, you've got your facts all skewed.

Paine's father never ran for office and was never a Communist. He belonged to a small group of Trotskyists.

The Hyde family had no association with the CPUSA. They supported Norman Thomas who ran for Prez under the Socialist party Banner. By the 1950s, he was a devout anti-Communist.

Do yourself a favor and do some research on the differences between the CPUSA, the Socialist Party, and Trotskyists.

And you're still wanting it both ways with the curtain rods by insisting that is what Oswald told Frazier he had.

Previously you have indicated the curtian rod story was concocted for Frazier by Ruth Paine.

[Duke Lane]

Duke:

Jack Dougherty also testified to the fact that going to the men's room was the first thing that LHO did as he came in the door that morning.

That may be in one of his statements -- I haven't checked, but I cannot find it anywhere in his WC testimony.

What he did testify to was that he only caught a glimple of Oswald as he entered. If it was just a glimpse, I see no reason to label him a xxxx for saying he didn't see anything being carried.

I believe he was carrying his lunch as he (is alleged to have) told Fritz. By odd coincidence, Frazier described his lunch as being exactly the same as what Oswald claimed he himself had. Pity no one could corroborate Frazier here as -- for the first time -- he ate alone in the basement that day.

This would mean a) Frazier did see Oswald with a bag - perhaps an oversized one for a lunch bag - but that's what it was Dougherty missed seeing it in his glance at Oswald c) Frazier was pressured to lie about his lunch and it's contents by saying it was his - presumably in case someone remembered seeing it in the Domino room where it was left d) his testimony re the size of Oswald's bag was to the best of his memory and e) he either did misremember what Oswald said was in it, or was also pressured to say he was told it was curtain rods, but not about the size of the bag - this aspect being less important as they could always claim he was mistaken about that.

I may be misquoting Dougherty - I haven't checked either, but I recall that he'd made a comment to the effect of an LHO "pit stop" somewhere ... but I could just as easily be mistaken. It's not really material in any event since Frazier said that Lee was only about 50 feet in front of him, and that Lee had waited for him to finish revving his engine to charge up the battery before heading to the building himself. Having to pee was not a dire emergency, then, it would seem, but might well account for him hurrying just a little faster than Frazier.

I'm not labelling Dougherty a xxxx over his "glimpse" statement. I am, however, suggesting that he's a character who perhaps bears a tad more scrutiny than he's gotten, and that given much of what he said he did that Friday afternoon, the "glimpse" statement could well be a lie.

You do realize, don't you, that Jack Dougherty is the only male TSBD employee who was on-site at lunchtime (and killing-time) whose actions and whereabouts were not corroborated by anyone until more than five minutes after the shooting although they should have been able to be? (Oswald's supposed whereabouts, while likewise not corroborated, were not such that anyone else necessarily "should have" seen him.)

You note about Frazier that it was "for the first time" that he'd eaten lunch alone in the basement that day ... but he did end up out front at shooting-time with Bill Shelley and Billy Lovelady. Also "for the first time" that day, Jack Dougherty didn't take his entire lunch break and instead went back to work on the fifth and sixth floors after a quick bite in the first-floor domino room ... and he didn't eventually end up anywhere around anyone else ... or at least not anyone who thought to mention him.

The "quick bite" is only according to Junior Jarman, who also did not see Jack on the fifth floor by the elevators or even testify to having heard him - or anyone else at all other than the two boys he was with in the windows, who also did not see or hear Jack or Lee or anyone else - on the fifth or sixth floor. This despite the "fact" that it was "so quiet" that they "heard" empty shells hit the floor above them.

Bonnie Ray Williams also did not see Jack while they were both on the sixth floor, nor did he see Jack on the way down to the fifth floor or when he arrived there. Neither of the other two boys saw him when they arrived on the fifth floor either ... yet he was there(?).

Or maybe they did see Jack and felt that it was more prudent to deny it.

It was Jack who rode the elevators up and who was the only person who'd been in a position to ensure that the freight elevator could not be called down by someone else by leaving the gate open, and it was he who rode the elevator down from the fifth floor while Baker and Truly were running up the stairs to the fifth floor after encountering Oswald on the second.

According to Truly, the elevators were both on the fifth floor when they began their trek upstairs from the ground floor, and neither was available from the second floor either after the lunchroom encounter. When they arrived at the fifth floor, one elevator had gone down - "presumably" taken by Jack, said Truly - and he and Baker then took the other (passenger) elevator to the top.

If the "Lee Harvey Oswald was a loser who sought fame by killing someone rich and powerful" supposed motive has any credence whatsoever, then such a motive applied manifold to Jack Dougherty, who served only a matter of months in the US Midwest pulling guard duty during WWII when every other able-bodied male his age was off getting shot and killed, in for the duration while Jack was given a medical discharge for problems that he clearly did not perceive - even as late as 1964 - that he had.

On the second pages of the two interviews he gave to the FBI prior to his WC testimony was noted the following, as addenda to the interview reports referenced:

Also present during the interview with JACK EDWIN DOUGHERTY was his father, R. C. DOUGHERTY, who advised his son received a medical discharge from the U. S. Army and indicated his son had considerable difficulty in coordinating his mental facilities with his speech. [Dougherty Exhibit C, November 22, 1963]

It was noted during interview of JACK DOUGHERTY, he had difficulty in correlating his speech with his thoughts, therefore, his father assisteded him in furnishing answers to questions asked. [Dougherty Exhibit B, December 19, 1963]

In his testimony, he denied both a problem with his speech and any sort of medical issues while he was in the military. (That Jack's father also happened to be able to be at his side when he was interviewed on the afternoon of the shooting is another of those interesting sidebars to the story.)

Jack - who was "borderline retarded" according to some descriptions, and at 40 years old still lived at home with mommy and daddy (a fact not lost upon other TSBD employees, especially younger ones) - was a "special" employee of the TSBD company who arrived at work and entered the building an hour earlier than everyone else - including Troy West, it may be noted here - so that he could "check for leaks" in the pipes and problems with water pressure before everyone else arrived.

Jack's apparent initiative did not escape Roy Truly's notice either ... at least not after the assassination.

What other opportunities that those "extra duties" may have afforded him is certainly open to speculation ... but could clearly have encompassed both paper and tape among other large and bulky items.

The point to this exercise? Simply to emphasize that just because Jack said he saw Lee and that he didn't see anything in Lee's hands is no reason to believe either statement. If there's anything else, well, I guess those are some pretty large lines to read between, eh?

[Duke Lane]

... Michael Paine gave the game away on his own politics when he spouted JBS propaganda as fact before the commission. ....

Specifically...?

That's an interesting proposition, as I often think of Michael Paine in the role of Lee's "ACLU sponsor," as in "let's go to a meeting, Lee," quite the opposite of "spouting JBS propaganda as fact."

Paine as right-winger would actually make a lot of sense in myriad ways. As in "welcome to my house, let me help get you set up?"

See also the topic "A Paine on the 'Right' Side" elsewhere on this forum.

Edited May 1, 2006 by Duke Lane