Tom Purvis: What Was That About The Carcano?

[Mark Knight]

Nixon, Pepsi, United Fruit/United Brands, Cheney, Rumsfeld, et al:

Connect The Dots

Still haven't found the tie to Klein's yet.

[Mark Knight]

Still trying to find info connecting Klein's Sporting Goods as a subsidiary of Pepsi-Cola in 1963, with absolutely NO luck. I've established that the president was Milton P. Klein, and two vice-presidents were William J. Waldman and Sam Kasper. But when I Google these folks, only Waldman's name comes up in connection with Klein's Sporting Goods, and THEN only because of his WC testimony.

In one history I found about Pepsi--possibly the one on the Pepsiworld website--it was mentioned that when sugar rationing began during WWII, the then-president of Pepsi bought a sugar plantation in Cuba, evidently so his company's supply wouldn't be interrupted by government intervention. So besides the Pepsi "bottling" plant in Laos that was a front for herion processing, Pepsi possibly also had interests in Cuba, at least until Fidel came along.

Anyone ever research THAT direction? Maybe Pepsi helped finance some quasi-covert action regarding Cuba...???

[Thomas H. Purvis]

Still trying to find info connecting Klein's Sporting Goods as a subsidiary of Pepsi-Cola in 1963, with absolutely NO luck. I've established that the president was Milton P. Klein, and two vice-presidents were William J. Waldman and Sam Kasper. But when I Google these folks, only Waldman's name comes up in connection with Klein's Sporting Goods, and THEN only because of his WC testimony.

In one history I found about Pepsi--possibly the one on the Pepsiworld website--it was mentioned that when sugar rationing began during WWII, the then-president of Pepsi bought a sugar plantation in Cuba, evidently so his company's supply wouldn't be interrupted by government intervention. So besides the Pepsi "bottling" plant in Laos that was a front for herion processing, Pepsi possibly also had interests in Cuba, at least until Fidel came along.

Anyone ever research THAT direction? Maybe Pepsi helped finance some quasi-covert action regarding Cuba...???

Well! Bo Knows about the Laos Connection.

http://www.whale.to/b/gritz1.html

But those flying pigs and rice, and there was a lot of that, they weren't doing it on their own initiative, this was the government that was mixing the pigs and rice with loads of opium. As a matter of fact I was surprised and pleased to see the movie Air America finally come out because it showed for maybe the only time in history where the Pepsi Cola plant was set up in Laos, not to put mom and pop bottling companies out of business but rather to do the rather more sophisticated steps of taking opium and morphine into number four Asian [heroin] hell. Richard Nixon is the person who set [the Pepsi Cola plant] up when he lost the election to Jack Kennedy. I hate to say it, I actually voted for Nixon; Lieutenants can be forgiven of ignorances like that, I would hope. I thought that Nixon had more experience, it wasn't that Kennedy was a Catholic. After he lost, he became a director in the Pepsi Cola bottling company. I think there was a direct relationship between Pepsi Cola and the Bay of Pigs. That wasn't Kennedy's show, that was Richard Nixon's show.

Somewhere, stuck away, I have some information that Pepsi sold their sugar plantation (s) in Cuba prior to Castro nationalizing everything.

Imagine that!

Massad Ayoob, some time back through an independent party, confirmed what he had found in regards to Klein's & Pepsi,

Apparantly, one must go into the Corporate Records in the State in which Kleins is registered.

I have asked Ayoob for his source and will hopefully get an answer.

[Thomas H. Purvis]

Still trying to find info connecting Klein's Sporting Goods as a subsidiary of Pepsi-Cola in 1963, with absolutely NO luck. I've established that the president was Milton P. Klein, and two vice-presidents were William J. Waldman and Sam Kasper. But when I Google these folks, only Waldman's name comes up in connection with Klein's Sporting Goods, and THEN only because of his WC testimony.

In one history I found about Pepsi--possibly the one on the Pepsiworld website--it was mentioned that when sugar rationing began during WWII, the then-president of Pepsi bought a sugar plantation in Cuba, evidently so his company's supply wouldn't be interrupted by government intervention. So besides the Pepsi "bottling" plant in Laos that was a front for herion processing, Pepsi possibly also had interests in Cuba, at least until Fidel came along.

Anyone ever research THAT direction? Maybe Pepsi helped finance some quasi-covert action regarding Cuba...???

Well! Bo Knows about the Laos Connection.

http://www.whale.to/b/gritz1.html

But those flying pigs and rice, and there was a lot of that, they weren't doing it on their own initiative, this was the government that was mixing the pigs and rice with loads of opium. As a matter of fact I was surprised and pleased to see the movie Air America finally come out because it showed for maybe the only time in history where the Pepsi Cola plant was set up in Laos, not to put mom and pop bottling companies out of business but rather to do the rather more sophisticated steps of taking opium and morphine into number four Asian [heroin] hell. Richard Nixon is the person who set [the Pepsi Cola plant] up when he lost the election to Jack Kennedy. I hate to say it, I actually voted for Nixon; Lieutenants can be forgiven of ignorances like that, I would hope. I thought that Nixon had more experience, it wasn't that Kennedy was a Catholic. After he lost, he became a director in the Pepsi Cola bottling company. I think there was a direct relationship between Pepsi Cola and the Bay of Pigs. That wasn't Kennedy's show, that was Richard Nixon's show.

Somewhere, stuck away, I have some information that Pepsi sold their sugar plantation (s) in Cuba prior to Castro nationalizing everything.

Imagine that!

Massad Ayoob, some time back through an independent party, confirmed what he had found in regards to Klein's & Pepsi,

Apparantly, one must go into the Corporate Records in the State in which Kleins is registered.

I have asked Ayoob for his source and will hopefully get an answer.

http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?ItemID=3960

Pepsi has long maintained ties to the intelligence community. One product of the relationship was a Pepsi plant in Vientiane, Laos with a laboratory outfitted for heroin production. Alfred McCoy, in *The Politics of Heroin in Southeast Asia* documents the efforts of Richard Nixon to promote the plant's construction in 1965, and the CIA's continuing subsidization of the plant. McCoy complained to Pepsi officials that the facilities were but a cover for the importation and refinement of morphine, but it continued to operate unhindered.)

[Mark Knight]

Aside from what's been posted here on the forum, I've emailed Gerry hemming several times regarding the connection, if any, between Mannlicher-Carcano rifles, Robert Emmett Johnson, and Montreal. Hemming has referred to having a great deal of knowledge on these subjects.

To date, Hemming has not replied to any of my queries this direction.

Oddly enough, he still forwards me emails that he finds interesting from other sources on unrelated topics...so I take that to mean that, while he's still active on his computer, he chooses not to respond to the subject regarding Mannlicher-Carcano rifles, Robert Emmett Johnson, and Montreal. Whether this means that he knows nothing of a connection; or that he knows of a connection but cannot--or will not--reveal what he knows; or that perhaps he thinks I might have uncovered something, and refuses to confirm...I don't know what's going on between his ears.

But I would've thought that if he was convinced I was way off base, he would've told me that. Not sure how to translate his total silence on the matter...because, to anyone familiar with Hemming's posts here on the forum, silence ain't his style, especially if he believes you're way off track. So I'm left to wonder just what this lack of response actually means.

[Thomas H. Purvis]

Aside from what's been posted here on the forum, I've emailed Gerry hemming several times regarding the connection, if any, between Mannlicher-Carcano rifles, Robert Emmett Johnson, and Montreal. Hemming has referred to having a great deal of knowledge on these subjects.

To date, Hemming has not replied to any of my queries this direction.

Oddly enough, he still forwards me emails that he finds interesting from other sources on unrelated topics...so I take that to mean that, while he's still active on his computer, he chooses not to respond to the subject regarding Mannlicher-Carcano rifles, Robert Emmett Johnson, and Montreal. Whether this means that he knows nothing of a connection; or that he knows of a connection but cannot--or will not--reveal what he knows; or that perhaps he thinks I might have uncovered something, and refuses to confirm...I don't know what's going on between his ears.

But I would've thought that if he was convinced I was way off base, he would've told me that. Not sure how to translate his total silence on the matter...because, to anyone familiar with Hemming's posts here on the forum, silence ain't his style, especially if he believes you're way off track. So I'm left to wonder just what this lack of response actually means.

Mark;

Personally, I am of the opinion that many pieces of the puzzle are now beginning to come into place for a number of persons.

Just perhaps, the "race" is on in which many of those who still hold yet to be revealed keys, are understandably awaiting some form of financial gain from attempting to "correct history", and unlock the information necessary to connect the dots.

Tom

[Mark Knight]

Maybe this is one of those deals where the answer actually IS: "Well, I could tell you; but then I'd have to kill you."

[...only HALF joking...]

[Thomas H. Purvis]

Maybe this is one of those deals where the answer actually IS: "Well, I could tell you; but then I'd have to kill you."

[...only HALF joking...]

Personally, I would expect that it is in fact a race for the "coins"!

[Mark Knight]

It appears that a couple of years ago we discussed the 40-inch "short rifle" which was [allegedly] recovered at the TSBD vs. the 36-inch "shortened" rifle shipped from Klein's. Just yesterday on another thread I read Paul Rigby's post from another source which suggests that the WC report was a lie that, once researchers began to investigate its voluminous evidence, wuold unravel under its own weight. That theory would explain why the WC report went to such great lengths to "prove" that the murder weapon came from Klein's Sporting Goods in Chicago, and then go several pages further following another Carcano with serial number 2766 to Empire Wholesale Sporting Goods in Montreal, a business that was [onveniently] defunct by early 1964.

The late Mr. Hemming emailed me sometime after my last previous post on this thread and said [or implied] that the second C2766, which I assume to mean the 40-inch "short rifle," indeed came via Montreal. Hemming also strongly hinted at a connection to French intelligence, but I've not been intelligent enough to figure out where to pick up that trail. Maybe the French thing has to do with Klein's/Pepsi/Laos Pepsi plant that processed heroin/"French Connection"/Marseilles sort of thing...but if so, how does it all tie in to the JFK assassination? Or perhaps Hemming was just blowing smoke.

Still, I don't think it's logical that if LHO was the shooter, he'd leave behind the 40" short rifle with a serial number that would tie him to the gun...UNLESS he knew he could produce the 36" "shortened" rifle and show that it wasn't HIS rifle that did the deed. [boy, would THAT trial have been interesting!!!] Or maybe that's why Oswald had to be eliminated...because it would reveal too many "family secrets" about the CIA and rifles [and WCC ammo] being provided to overseas combatants.

Or maybe LHO wasn't the shooter, but the "short rifle" with the serial number that matched LHO's rifle was part of making him the "patsy," as he claimed...but the short rifle would've had to have been made up and planted by someone with knowledge of the serial number on Oswald's rifle.

As they say, "The truth IS out there"...but I'm having a hard time getting to it.

[Thomas H. Purvis]

It appears that a couple of years ago we discussed the 40-inch "short rifle" which was [allegedly] recovered at the TSBD vs. the 36-inch "shortened" rifle shipped from Klein's. Just yesterday on another thread I read Paul Rigby's post from another source which suggests that the WC report was a lie that, once researchers began to investigate its voluminous evidence, wuold unravel under its own weight. That theory would explain why the WC report went to such great lengths to "prove" that the murder weapon came from Klein's Sporting Goods in Chicago, and then go several pages further following another Carcano with serial number 2766 to Empire Wholesale Sporting Goods in Montreal, a business that was [onveniently] defunct by early 1964.

The late Mr. Hemming emailed me sometime after my last previous post on this thread and said [or implied] that the second C2766, which I assume to mean the 40-inch "short rifle," indeed came via Montreal. Hemming also strongly hinted at a connection to French intelligence, but I've not been intelligent enough to figure out where to pick up that trail. Maybe the French thing has to do with Klein's/Pepsi/Laos Pepsi plant that processed heroin/"French Connection"/Marseilles sort of thing...but if so, how does it all tie in to the JFK assassination? Or perhaps Hemming was just blowing smoke.

Still, I don't think it's logical that if LHO was the shooter, he'd leave behind the 40" short rifle with a serial number that would tie him to the gun...UNLESS he knew he could produce the 36" "shortened" rifle and show that it wasn't HIS rifle that did the deed. [boy, would THAT trial have been interesting!!!] Or maybe that's why Oswald had to be eliminated...because it would reveal too many "family secrets" about the CIA and rifles [and WCC ammo] being provided to overseas combatants.

Or maybe LHO wasn't the shooter, but the "short rifle" with the serial number that matched LHO's rifle was part of making him the "patsy," as he claimed...but the short rifle would've had to have been made up and planted by someone with knowledge of the serial number on Oswald's rifle.

As they say, "The truth IS out there"...but I'm having a hard time getting to it.

Still, I don't think it's logical that if LHO was the shooter, he'd leave behind the 40" short rifle with a serial number that would tie him to the gun...UNLESS he knew he could produce the 36" "shortened" rifle and show that it wasn't HIS rifle that did the deed. [boy, would THAT trial have been interesting!!!] Or maybe that's why Oswald had to be eliminated...because it would reveal too many "family secrets" about the CIA and rifles [and WCC ammo] being provided to overseas combatants.

Or maybe LHO wasn't the shooter, but the "short rifle" with the serial number that matched LHO's rifle was part of making him the "patsy," as he claimed...but the short rifle would've had to have been made up and planted by someone with knowledge of the serial number on Oswald's rifle.

As they say, "The truth IS out there"...but I'm having a hard time getting to it.

That, unfortunately, is what time has created for us.

Therein also lies the biggest crimes of Specter & Company who were so engaged in covering up the actual sequence of the shooting event that they forgot to really check as to exactly what was going on with LHO and exactly who was behind his actions, whatever role they were meant to play.

The Alyea film:

http://www.jfk-online.com/alyea.html

Along with Day carrying the 40-inch Short Rifle from the TSDB, relatively well establishes the fact that the found weapon was a 6.5mm Carcano Short Rifle.

Which, by all appearances, (including the leather sling) appears to be the Model 91/38 Short Rifle weapon with the serial number C2766.

With that in mind, the "logic" of the backyard photo's appears to be as additional proof that LHO was in possession of a Model 91/38 Short Rifle, not a 36-inch length Carbine.

With the found photo's and the recovered weapon, who would question the documentation which appears to demonstrate that Kleins received and shipped some version of the TS Carbine. (True TS Carbine or Model 91/24 Carbine which was a cut-down long rifle).

The Wood boy:

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/wood_s.htm

As well as his father, appear to be discussing a Carbine.

However, Sterling Wood stated that the weapon he observed was longer than a yardstick, and the fact that LHO was shooting accurately with it, appears to demonstrate that it was most probably the Short Rifle.

Which also leads to speculation that he was there to zero the scope which was mounted onto the weapon.

Because Specter & Company went out of their way to not allow full disclosure of all possible witness statements, we are now at a complete loss in many areas in regards to fitting the pieces of the puzzle in regards to the Short Rifle v. Carbine

issue.

Also, please recall that GPH was in fact once listed as an "agent" for Klein's, if recalled correctly.

[Mark Knight]

So...I guess we can break this down into (1) what we know, and (2) what we don't know.

What we know, based upon the best evidence available, would include:

(1) The rifle shipped from Klein's was a 91/24 TS carbine, or a shortened rifle, which was 36 inches long.

(2) The rifle in police custody, found in the TSBD, was a 91/38 short rifle, which was 40 inches long.

Therefore, we can conclude that the rifle shipped from Klein's Sporting Goods to "A. Hidell" in care of LHO's post office box was NOT the rifle recovered by police in the TSBD.

From that we can conclude that the rifle shipped from Klein's was not connected to the JFK assassination, other than to have carried the same serial number as the separate and distinct rifle recovered from the TSBD.

Ballistics and analysis of bullet fragments from the assassination link the short rifle to the assassination...but not the "shortened" rifle.

But apparently, from the photographs of the stamped serial numbers, police MUST have had BOTH rifles in their possession at one time.

And exactly which gun yielded Oswald's palm print...the 91/24, which can be traced to him thru Klein's, or the 91/38, which can't be traced back to Oswald??

Why the shell game? Why didn't someone who knew come forward and SAY that they had two rifles in custody, both with the same serial number? It's quite obvious today that either the DPD, SS, or the FBI knew this....or perhaps they ALL knew it.

I think that finding the source of the model 91/38 short rifle may be the Rosetta Stone of the conspiracy...because if Oswald had a source for a second rifle--one the WC says he didn't have enough income to purchase--yet he somehow acquired it...then the existence of conspiracy is proven. And if Oswald didn't acquire the short rifle--Sterling Wood's testimony aside--then there certainly was a conspiracy that may NOT have included Oswald, and making sure the short rifle had the same serial number as Oswald's rifle from Klein's may prove that Oswalds was merely the patsy he said he was.

Or maybe the truth lies somewhere inbetween. But the second rifle, as I see it, surely proves conspiracy...as I don't think Oswald procured the second gun without knowledgeable help.

And the fact that the WC went into such great detail in CE 2562 [going from memory here] about a Carcano with the same serial number from Empire Wholesale Sporting Goods being tracked to a certain point, and then "disappearing" into a story about salvaged and repaired guns, makes me think that the WC knew SOMETHING about the second gun but chose to hide what they knew in the miscellany, hoping that no one would pick up on what was being said--or not said--about that gun's existence.

This all just seems to be of critical importance, in my mind, because if one can unravel the source of the 91/38 short rifle, one can start putting the pieces of the conspiracy together a lot easier.

[Thomas H. Purvis]

So...I guess we can break this down into (1) what we know, and (2) what we don't know.

What we know, based upon the best evidence available, would include:

(1) The rifle shipped from Klein's was a 91/24 TS carbine, or a shortened rifle, which was 36 inches long.

(2) The rifle in police custody, found in the TSBD, was a 91/38 short rifle, which was 40 inches long.

Therefore, we can conclude that the rifle shipped from Klein's Sporting Goods to "A. Hidell" in care of LHO's post office box was NOT the rifle recovered by police in the TSBD.

From that we can conclude that the rifle shipped from Klein's was not connected to the JFK assassination, other than to have carried the same serial number as the separate and distinct rifle recovered from the TSBD.

Ballistics and analysis of bullet fragments from the assassination link the short rifle to the assassination...but not the "shortened" rifle.

But apparently, from the photographs of the stamped serial numbers, police MUST have had BOTH rifles in their possession at one time.

And exactly which gun yielded Oswald's palm print...the 91/24, which can be traced to him thru Klein's, or the 91/38, which can't be traced back to Oswald??

Why the shell game? Why didn't someone who knew come forward and SAY that they had two rifles in custody, both with the same serial number? It's quite obvious today that either the DPD, SS, or the FBI knew this....or perhaps they ALL knew it.

I think that finding the source of the model 91/38 short rifle may be the Rosetta Stone of the conspiracy...because if Oswald had a source for a second rifle--one the WC says he didn't have enough income to purchase--yet he somehow acquired it...then the existence of conspiracy is proven. And if Oswald didn't acquire the short rifle--Sterling Wood's testimony aside--then there certainly was a conspiracy that may NOT have included Oswald, and making sure the short rifle had the same serial number as Oswald's rifle from Klein's may prove that Oswalds was merely the patsy he said he was.

Or maybe the truth lies somewhere inbetween. But the second rifle, as I see it, surely proves conspiracy...as I don't think Oswald procured the second gun without knowledgeable help.

And the fact that the WC went into such great detail in CE 2562 [going from memory here] about a Carcano with the same serial number from Empire Wholesale Sporting Goods being tracked to a certain point, and then "disappearing" into a story about salvaged and repaired guns, makes me think that the WC knew SOMETHING about the second gun but chose to hide what they knew in the miscellany, hoping that no one would pick up on what was being said--or not said--about that gun's existence.

This all just seems to be of critical importance, in my mind, because if one can unravel the source of the 91/38 short rifle, one can start putting the pieces of the conspiracy together a lot easier.

Sort of like our Vice-President!

There are the "known unknowns" in which we know that we don't know.

And then there the "unknown unknown's" in which we do not even know that there is an unknown, not to mention not knowing anything about the actual unknown itself.

TS Carbine---36 inch long true carbine, made by multiple factories, therefore multiple identical serial numbers.

Model 91/24 Carbine--36 inches long which is in fact an old "long rifle" which has been cut down to the 36 inch Carbine length.

Long rifles were produced by all five manufacturing plants, therefore repetition of serial numbers can again occur.

Model Cavalry Carbine, completely different stock, yet barrel length is exactly the same as the standard TS (36 inch Carbine), made by multiple plants and all that one has to do is remove the barrel and install it onto any model carbine.

Model 91/38 Short Rifle, produced at at least three plants.

Thousands of various replacement "blank" barrells recovered as war stocks in which once installed onto a weapon, could have virtually any serial number stamped onto it.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

All of which would serve to indicate that someone went out of their way in an attempt to make it appear that the assassination weapon could ultimately be traced directly back to Klein's Sporting Goods.

Even to the extent of insuring that photographs of LHO holding an actual "Short Rifle" existed, in order to alleviate any suspicions in regards to the Carbine v. Short Rifle received issue.

So! Why would anyone go to so much trouble to insure this????????

"Incoming, run for cover"!

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Since the actual assassination weapon was in fact originally a Model 38 (Short Rifle in the 7.35mm), it could have easily been been acquired by anyone as such, and then a barrel change made thereafter.

Thereby making the weapon, for all practical purposes, untraceable.

And, other than the fact that LHO is photographed holding a short rifle, it certainly leads to a potential conclusion that he may have been some form of unwitting accomplice.

On the other hand, it may have merely been an exercise in which someone, for whatever reasons, wanted to insure that the finger ultimately pointed back at Klein's Sporting Goods.

Known Unknowns!

[Antti Hynonen]

Thomas H. Purvis Posted Today, 02:09 AM

QUOTE(Mark Knight @ Aug 4 2008, 08:19 PM)

So...I guess we can break this down into (1) what we know, and (2) what we don't know.

What we know, based upon the best evidence available, would include:

(1) The rifle shipped from Klein's was a 91/24 TS carbine, or a shortened rifle, which was 36 inches long.

(2) The rifle in police custody, found in the TSBD, was a 91/38 short rifle, which was 40 inches long.

Therefore, we can conclude that the rifle shipped from Klein's Sporting Goods to "A. Hidell" in care of LHO's post office box was NOT the rifle recovered by police in the TSBD.

From that we can conclude that the rifle shipped from Klein's was not connected to the JFK assassination, other than to have carried the same serial number as the separate and distinct rifle recovered from the TSBD.

Ballistics and analysis of bullet fragments from the assassination link the short rifle to the assassination...but not the "shortened" rifle.

But apparently, from the photographs of the stamped serial numbers, police MUST have had BOTH rifles in their possession at one time.

And exactly which gun yielded Oswald's palm print...the 91/24, which can be traced to him thru Klein's, or the 91/38, which can't be traced back to Oswald??

Why the shell game? Why didn't someone who knew come forward and SAY that they had two rifles in custody, both with the same serial number? It's quite obvious today that either the DPD, SS, or the FBI knew this....or perhaps they ALL knew it.

I think that finding the source of the model 91/38 short rifle may be the Rosetta Stone of the conspiracy...because if Oswald had a source for a second rifle--one the WC says he didn't have enough income to purchase--yet he somehow acquired it...then the existence of conspiracy is proven. And if Oswald didn't acquire the short rifle--Sterling Wood's testimony aside--then there certainly was a conspiracy that may NOT have included Oswald, and making sure the short rifle had the same serial number as Oswald's rifle from Klein's may prove that Oswalds was merely the patsy he said he was.

Or maybe the truth lies somewhere inbetween. But the second rifle, as I see it, surely proves conspiracy...as I don't think Oswald procured the second gun without knowledgeable help.

And the fact that the WC went into such great detail in CE 2562 [going from memory here] about a Carcano with the same serial number from Empire Wholesale Sporting Goods being tracked to a certain point, and then "disappearing" into a story about salvaged and repaired guns, makes me think that the WC knew SOMETHING about the second gun but chose to hide what they knew in the miscellany, hoping that no one would pick up on what was being said--or not said--about that gun's existence.

This all just seems to be of critical importance, in my mind, because if one can unravel the source of the 91/38 short rifle, one can start putting the pieces of the conspiracy together a lot easier.

Sort of like our Vice-President!

There are the "known unknowns" in which we know that we don't know.

And then there the "unknown unknown's" in which we do not even know that there is an unknown, not to mention not knowing anything about the actual unknown itself.

TS Carbine---36 inch long true carbine, made by multiple factories, therefore multiple identical serial numbers.

Model 91/24 Carbine--36 inches long which is in fact an old "long rifle" which has been cut down to the 36 inch Carbine length.

Long rifles were produced by all five manufacturing plants, therefore repetition of serial numbers can again occur.

Model Cavalry Carbine, completely different stock, yet barrel length is exactly the same as the standard TS (36 inch Carbine), made by multiple plants and all that one has to do is remove the barrel and install it onto any model carbine.

Model 91/38 Short Rifle, produced at at least three plants.

Thousands of various replacement "blank" barrells recovered as war stocks in which once installed onto a weapon, could have virtually any serial number stamped onto it.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

All of which would serve to indicate that someone went out of their way in an attempt to make it appear that the assassination weapon could ultimately be traced directly back to Klein's Sporting Goods.

Even to the extent of insuring that photographs of LHO holding an actual "Short Rifle" existed, in order to alleviate any suspicions in regards to the Carbine v. Short Rifle received issue.

So! Why would anyone go to so much trouble to insure this????????

"Incoming, run for cover"!

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Since the actual assassination weapon was in fact originally a Model 38 (Short Rifle in the 7.35mm), it could have easily been been acquired by anyone as such, and then a barrel change made thereafter.

Thereby making the weapon, for all practical purposes, untraceable.

And, other than the fact that LHO is photographed holding a short rifle, it certainly leads to a potential conclusion that he may have been some form of unwitting accomplice.

On the other hand, it may have merely been an exercise in which someone, for whatever reasons, wanted to insure that the finger ultimately pointed back at Klein's Sporting Goods.

Known Unknowns!

If, in fact it can be proven "beyond a reasonable doubt" (I suspect we can), that there were, in fact two Carcano's, a short rifle and a carbine, both with the same serial numbers, both entered into evidence, there is no option but to conclude that Lee Oswald was framed.

Tom Purvis All of which would serve to indicate that someone went out of their way in an attempt to make it appear that the assassination weapon could ultimately be traced directly back to Klein's Sporting Goods.

I would continue this statement Tom, and say "....and to Alek Hidell's order, and therefore to Lee H. Oswald".

Tom Purvis And, other than the fact that LHO is photographed holding a short rifle, it certainly leads to a potential conclusion that he may have been some form of unwitting accomplice.

On the other hand, it may have merely been an exercise in which someone, for whatever reasons, wanted to insure that the finger ultimately pointed back at Klein's Sporting Goods.

Again, I would continue this statement Tom, and say "....and to Alek Hidell's order, and therefore to Lee H. Oswald".

Doesn't the result of the study of the backyard photos by Jack White, in fact show that the rifle ordered by A. Hidell is different to the one seen in the backyard photos, and different to the one found at the TSBD?

Edited August 5, 2008 by Antti Hynonen

[Royce Bierma]

So...I guess we can break this down into (1) what we know, and (2) what we don't know.

What we know, based upon the best evidence available, would include:

(1) The rifle shipped from Klein's was a 91/24 TS carbine, or a shortened rifle, which was 36 inches long.

(2) The rifle in police custody, found in the TSBD, was a 91/38 short rifle, which was 40 inches long.

Therefore, we can conclude that the rifle shipped from Klein's Sporting Goods to "A. Hidell" in care of LHO's post office box was NOT the rifle recovered by police in the TSBD.

From that we can conclude that the rifle shipped from Klein's was not connected to the JFK assassination, other than to have carried the same serial number as the separate and distinct rifle recovered from the TSBD.

Ballistics and analysis of bullet fragments from the assassination link the short rifle to the assassination...but not the "shortened" rifle.

But apparently, from the photographs of the stamped serial numbers, police MUST have had BOTH rifles in their possession at one time.

And exactly which gun yielded Oswald's palm print...the 91/24, which can be traced to him thru Klein's, or the 91/38, which can't be traced back to Oswald??

Why the shell game? Why didn't someone who knew come forward and SAY that they had two rifles in custody, both with the same serial number? It's quite obvious today that either the DPD, SS, or the FBI knew this....or perhaps they ALL knew it.

I think that finding the source of the model 91/38 short rifle may be the Rosetta Stone of the conspiracy...because if Oswald had a source for a second rifle--one the WC says he didn't have enough income to purchase--yet he somehow acquired it...then the existence of conspiracy is proven. And if Oswald didn't acquire the short rifle--Sterling Wood's testimony aside--then there certainly was a conspiracy that may NOT have included Oswald, and making sure the short rifle had the same serial number as Oswald's rifle from Klein's may prove that Oswalds was merely the patsy he said he was.

Or maybe the truth lies somewhere inbetween. But the second rifle, as I see it, surely proves conspiracy...as I don't think Oswald procured the second gun without knowledgeable help.

And the fact that the WC went into such great detail in CE 2562 [going from memory here] about a Carcano with the same serial number from Empire Wholesale Sporting Goods being tracked to a certain point, and then "disappearing" into a story about salvaged and repaired guns, makes me think that the WC knew SOMETHING about the second gun but chose to hide what they knew in the miscellany, hoping that no one would pick up on what was being said--or not said--about that gun's existence.

This all just seems to be of critical importance, in my mind, because if one can unravel the source of the 91/38 short rifle, one can start putting the pieces of the conspiracy together a lot easier.

Mark, I agree that the source of the 91/38 short rifle is vitally important. Looking at CE2562, which deals with details of two rifles which Mr. Rankin requested Mr. Hoover to trace, a letter from Mr. Hoover refers to two rifles, one bearing the C2766 serial no., and the other 2766. The one without the preceding "C" was shipped from Empire Wholesale Sporting Goods Store, a subsidiary of International Firearms, both in Montreal, Quebec, to Alden's Inc.(a large mail-order catalogue firm) in Chicago. However, Alden's had no records of receiving the rifle, according to Mr. Hoover, and there the inquiry ended. It's good to keep in mind that the Dodd Committee was investigating firearms sales, particularly ones that originated internationally. And Seaport Traders and Klein's in particular, were two of the companies domestically which were being investigated.

Roy Bierma

Roy Bierma

Edited August 5, 2008 by Royce Bierma

[Thomas H. Purvis]

Thomas H. Purvis Posted Today, 02:09 AM

QUOTE(Mark Knight @ Aug 4 2008, 08:19 PM)

So...I guess we can break this down into (1) what we know, and (2) what we don't know.

What we know, based upon the best evidence available, would include:

(1) The rifle shipped from Klein's was a 91/24 TS carbine, or a shortened rifle, which was 36 inches long.

(2) The rifle in police custody, found in the TSBD, was a 91/38 short rifle, which was 40 inches long.

Therefore, we can conclude that the rifle shipped from Klein's Sporting Goods to "A. Hidell" in care of LHO's post office box was NOT the rifle recovered by police in the TSBD.

From that we can conclude that the rifle shipped from Klein's was not connected to the JFK assassination, other than to have carried the same serial number as the separate and distinct rifle recovered from the TSBD.

Ballistics and analysis of bullet fragments from the assassination link the short rifle to the assassination...but not the "shortened" rifle.

But apparently, from the photographs of the stamped serial numbers, police MUST have had BOTH rifles in their possession at one time.

And exactly which gun yielded Oswald's palm print...the 91/24, which can be traced to him thru Klein's, or the 91/38, which can't be traced back to Oswald??

Why the shell game? Why didn't someone who knew come forward and SAY that they had two rifles in custody, both with the same serial number? It's quite obvious today that either the DPD, SS, or the FBI knew this....or perhaps they ALL knew it.

I think that finding the source of the model 91/38 short rifle may be the Rosetta Stone of the conspiracy...because if Oswald had a source for a second rifle--one the WC says he didn't have enough income to purchase--yet he somehow acquired it...then the existence of conspiracy is proven. And if Oswald didn't acquire the short rifle--Sterling Wood's testimony aside--then there certainly was a conspiracy that may NOT have included Oswald, and making sure the short rifle had the same serial number as Oswald's rifle from Klein's may prove that Oswalds was merely the patsy he said he was.

Or maybe the truth lies somewhere inbetween. But the second rifle, as I see it, surely proves conspiracy...as I don't think Oswald procured the second gun without knowledgeable help.

And the fact that the WC went into such great detail in CE 2562 [going from memory here] about a Carcano with the same serial number from Empire Wholesale Sporting Goods being tracked to a certain point, and then "disappearing" into a story about salvaged and repaired guns, makes me think that the WC knew SOMETHING about the second gun but chose to hide what they knew in the miscellany, hoping that no one would pick up on what was being said--or not said--about that gun's existence.

This all just seems to be of critical importance, in my mind, because if one can unravel the source of the 91/38 short rifle, one can start putting the pieces of the conspiracy together a lot easier.

Sort of like our Vice-President!

There are the "known unknowns" in which we know that we don't know.

And then there the "unknown unknown's" in which we do not even know that there is an unknown, not to mention not knowing anything about the actual unknown itself.

TS Carbine---36 inch long true carbine, made by multiple factories, therefore multiple identical serial numbers.

Model 91/24 Carbine--36 inches long which is in fact an old "long rifle" which has been cut down to the 36 inch Carbine length.

Long rifles were produced by all five manufacturing plants, therefore repetition of serial numbers can again occur.

Model Cavalry Carbine, completely different stock, yet barrel length is exactly the same as the standard TS (36 inch Carbine), made by multiple plants and all that one has to do is remove the barrel and install it onto any model carbine.

Model 91/38 Short Rifle, produced at at least three plants.

Thousands of various replacement "blank" barrells recovered as war stocks in which once installed onto a weapon, could have virtually any serial number stamped onto it.

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All of which would serve to indicate that someone went out of their way in an attempt to make it appear that the assassination weapon could ultimately be traced directly back to Klein's Sporting Goods.

Even to the extent of insuring that photographs of LHO holding an actual "Short Rifle" existed, in order to alleviate any suspicions in regards to the Carbine v. Short Rifle received issue.

So! Why would anyone go to so much trouble to insure this????????

"Incoming, run for cover"!

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Since the actual assassination weapon was in fact originally a Model 38 (Short Rifle in the 7.35mm), it could have easily been been acquired by anyone as such, and then a barrel change made thereafter.

Thereby making the weapon, for all practical purposes, untraceable.

And, other than the fact that LHO is photographed holding a short rifle, it certainly leads to a potential conclusion that he may have been some form of unwitting accomplice.

On the other hand, it may have merely been an exercise in which someone, for whatever reasons, wanted to insure that the finger ultimately pointed back at Klein's Sporting Goods.

Known Unknowns!

If, in fact it can be proven "beyond a reasonable doubt" (I suspect we can), that there were, in fact two Carcano's, a short rifle and a carbine, both with the same serial numbers, both entered into evidence, there is no option but to conclude that Lee Oswald was framed.

Tom Purvis All of which would serve to indicate that someone went out of their way in an attempt to make it appear that the assassination weapon could ultimately be traced directly back to Klein's Sporting Goods.

I would continue this statement Tom, and say "....and to Alek Hidell's order, and therefore to Lee H. Oswald".

Tom Purvis And, other than the fact that LHO is photographed holding a short rifle, it certainly leads to a potential conclusion that he may have been some form of unwitting accomplice.

On the other hand, it may have merely been an exercise in which someone, for whatever reasons, wanted to insure that the finger ultimately pointed back at Klein's Sporting Goods.

Again, I would continue this statement Tom, and say "....and to Alek Hidell's order, and therefore to Lee H. Oswald".

Doesn't the result of the study of the backyard photos by Jack White, in fact show that the rifle ordered by A. Hidell is different to the one seen in the backyard photos, and different to the one found at the TSBD?

If, in fact it can be proven "beyond a reasonable doubt" (I suspect we can), that there were, in fact two Carcano's, a short rifle and a carbine, both with the same serial numbers, both entered into evidence, there is no option but to conclude that Lee Oswald was framed.

It can, and has clearly been proven beyond any reasonable doubt, that from "original production", that there are multiple Carcano's of varying model numbers which would carry the serial number C2766.

Personally, I am in posession of TRUE 36-inch length TS Carbine in the 6.5mm caliber, made at the Gardone factory in 1940 (fixed rear sight exactly like the C2766 weapon), which Carbine carries the serial number C5522.

And, it is a true "original" collector's item as the stock also bears the exact same serial number as does the barrel.

Now, most would recognize the simple fact that if they marked one of these with C5522, then in order to get to that progressive number, that somewhere exist the "sister" to this weapon which would be marked C2766.

there is no option but to conclude that Lee Oswald was framed. [/b]

Perhaps so, provided that one operates with a completely closed mind.

However, since it is most unlikely that anyone with any sense would attempt to shoot JFK with some old junky long rifle which had been cut down to a Model 91/24 36-inch length Carbine which was highly inaccurate, as well as one would truly not to even want to attempt to shoot him with a true 36-inch Carbine, then there exists multiple other reasons for acquisition of an extremely accurate Model 91/38 short rifle with which to accomplish the task.

Doesn't the result of the study of the backyard photos by Jack White, in fact show that the rifle ordered by A. Hidell is different to the one seen in the backyard photos, and different to the one found at the TSBD?

Nope!