Tom Purvis: What Was That About The Carcano?

[Mark Knight]

I'd like to thank Jack White for the photos regarding the DIFFERENCES in the Manlicher-Carcano rifles. While Tom and I are both well aware of this situation, some other readers of this thread may not be.

I think that, considering the differences in the sling swivels, and the differences in the rifle lengths, the serial number differences should be a no-brainer...different rifles, same serial number, stampings would naturally be different...since they were stamped at different times and places.

I'm wondering if the Klein's deal--and the oddly out-of-sequence U. S. Post Office money order--might not have been an attempt to "pin" something onto the CIA...much like what's going on today with the pi$$ing contest between the CIA and the NSA. I still think that the evidence regarding Empire and a large batch of Carcano carbines wouldn't have found its way into the WC Report by accident...especially since the revolver Oswald had when he was arrested came via Seaport Traders from...Empire. Especially since the information about Empire dealing in "salvage" Carcanos was part of an argument to justuify that serial number C2766 was unique, yet Empire stated that they didn't keep serial number records on the guns they handled. To attempt to use this information in a section meant to convince the reader that the C2766 serial number was unique is...well, "unusual" would be a gross understatement..

Somehow, I just can't get it in my mind that this is merely a coincidence. It's just TOO unlikely. Now, if the 40-inch Carcano came from Empire...except they didn't keep any records of serial numbers...and the 36-inch Carcano came from Klein's...THEN there's a problem with THIS area of the official story. And I think that's likely what really happened. I think someone possibly left us a clue to the truth of the Carcano in the WC Report, albeit not a very strong one.

Edited May 25, 2006 by Mark Knight

[Jack White]

Everybody seems to miss the significance that

THE RIFLE IN THE BACKYARD PHOTO WAS NOT

THE RIFLE FOUND IN THE DEPOSITORY.

The BACKYARD photo was the ONLY EVIDENCE

tying LHO to A MC-RIFLE. Nobody alleges that

he owned TWO MC-RIFLES!

Therefore if the rifle he is pictured with is not

the one in the sniper nest, OSWALD IS EXONERATED!

The patsy framers used TWO DIFFERENT RIFLES

TO FRAME OSWALD. One was shown in a FAKED

photograph. One was planted on the Sixth Floor.

The photo is NOW DISCREDITED as evidence showing

LHO owned the "murder weapon".

What's left? Harry Holmes dubious tracing to a

mail order placed with Kleins by an A. Hidell.

Who is he?

Jack

Edited May 25, 2006 by Jack White

[Thomas H. Purvis]

I'd like to thank Jack White for the photos regarding the DIFFERENCES in the Manlicher-Carcano rifles. While Tom and I are both well aware of this situation, some other readers of this thread may not be.

I think that, considering the differences in the sling swivels, and the differences in the rifle lengths, the serial number differences should be a no-brainer...different rifles, same serial number, stampings would naturally be different...since they were stamped at different times and places.

I'm wondering if the Klein's deal--and the oddly out-of-sequence U. S. Post Office money order--might not have been an attempt to "pin" something onto the CIA...much like what's going on today with the pi$$ing contest between the CIA and the NSA. I still think that the evidence regarding Empire and a large batch of Carcano carbines wouldn't have found its way into the WC Report by accident...especially since the revolver Oswald had when he was arrested came via Seaport Traders from...Empire. Especially since the information about Empire dealing in "salvage" Carcanos was part of an argument to justuify that serial number C2766 was unique, yet Empire stated that they didn't keep serial number records on the guns they handled. To attempt to use this information in a section meant to convince the reader that the C2766 serial number was unique is...well, "unusual" would be a gross understatement..

Somehow, I just can't get it in my mind that this is merely a coincidence. It's just TOO unlikely. Now, if the 40-inch Carcano came from Empire...except they didn't keep any records of serial numbers...and the 36-inch Carcano came from Klein's...THEN there's a problem with THIS area of the official story. And I think that's likely what really happened. I think someone possibly left us a clue to the truth of the Carcano in the WC Report, albeit not a very strong one.

Mark;

As you may recall, (I once posted a copy of the letter) In a letter to Chuck Marler, dated August 14, 1994, I informed Chuck of the problems of the sling swivel in the Oswald photo, as well as a partial explanation as to the "why" that this could not be the "exact" same rifle as recovered in the TSDB.

I would add, that unless someone has something otherwise, this was also the first time that this topic had been brought out and no doubt not unlike the altered survey data which I provided, has finally "leaked" it's way into the topics, through a variety of now "Expert" sources.

Might I also add that none of the other "Gun Experts" who float around these forums knew enough to also spot and report this either.

This also happens to be the reasoning behind my hunting down and acquiring one of each model of Carcano made, as well as checking litterally thousands of them at gun shows, pawn shops, privately held, etc.

In order that I could hopefully speak from some semblance of authority on them.

Might I further add that I have no personal usage for guns! I have a combination .410 shotgun with .22 interchangable barrel which is utilized to kill snakes at the pond and armadillo's in the flower beds, and two pistols for self defense.

I long ago grew out of playing with guns, and after having hunted, as well as having been hunted, by man, there is little thrill in playing with guns and/or shooting Bambi.

And even though I was always raised with them, & had them all around me while in the Military Service, all that one needs to do is go to a gun show and observe in order to recognize that we most certainly need some strong gun control laws in this country.

They are not toys with which one plays with to prove himself to himself or others.

Back to the subject at hand!

The LHO photo presents somewhat of an enigma.

Jack has indicated that it represents some sort of proof that the rifle in the photo is not the rifle found in the depository.

It does not!

It merely demonstrates that there is a difference in the forward sling swivel band between the two rifles.

This in turn leaves us with about four basic options as regards the answer to the question.

However, none of these answers actually having any bearing on the credibility of the data which demonstrates that serial numbers on these weapons are for all practical purposes worthless, unless accompanied by the informatin relative to the exact model number and the Factory of production name/stamp, as well as information relative to any later modifications.

[Mark Knight]

In 1994, I wasn't aware of the sling swivel differences, as I had taken a hiatus from the JFK assassination material. But the nagging thought that I'd overlooked something, something simple, brought me back. By 1996 I started looking at the books and the photos again, and a couple of years ago I found this forum.

I believe that Tom may be onto something...had Oswald lived, and then produced a 36-inch Carcano AFTER prosecutors had a 40-inch Carcano in custody, it would've blown the case against Oswald right out of the water. And since the rifle from Klein's was supposed to be a 36-inch Carcano, the presence of the 40-inch Carcano creates a BIG problem.

But no 36-inch Carcano was produced before the public, or remains in evidence. And with Oswald dead, he can't unlock this possible mystery. But let's suppose, for a moment that there IS a link to the 40-inch Carcano...and it's through Empire Wholesale Sporting Goods, Limited, of Montreal, which was also the source for Oswald's revolver. If Oswald had managed to produce the 36-inch Carcano with the "correct" serial number, while on the other hand the police had in custody the 40-inch Carcano with the "same" serial number...does this not complicate the case? And since police cannot trace the purchase of the 40-inch Carcano to Oswald--only the 36-inch rifle came from Klein's--the only thing THEN tying the alleged murder weapon to Oswald is the palm print UNDER the barrel, and UNDER the wood trim.

But that would mean that Oswald had, at one time or another, had the 40-inch Carcano in his possession in a disassembled or partially-disassembled state. Or perhaps...perhaps...those folks at Empire, who had all those "salvage" Carcanos, didn't provide Oswald with the 40-inch Carcano at all. Perhaps Oswald merely acquired a replacement BARREL --from Empire??--to MAKE his 36-inch Carcano into a 40-inch Carcano. Perhaps Empire, like Klein's, also had CIA ties...and was able to find a barrel made at another manufacturing plant that had the "correct" serial number, that would make Oswald's 36-inch rifle into a 40-inch rifle.

Replacing a barrel would, of course, explain the palm print being found where it was allegedly found on the 40-inch, TSBD rifle. But WHY one would want the serial numbers to be the same--and how one could obtain a barrel with the "correct" serial number--takes us deeper and deeper into untested areas...based upon nothing more than a hunch. And since Empire didn't record serial numbers...I don't think there's any way to prove whether or not this might have happened.

The WC's examination of Ozzie's finances would imply very strongly that this DIDN'T occur, because it can be implied that he simply didn't have enough money to buy a second barrel from anywhere. Of course, since his 1962 tax return is almost totally redacted, it's impossible to refute the WC's numbers.

But how about it, Tom...would Oswald re-barreling the gun fit into one of the holes in the puzzle here? And might that not also explain the difference in the sling swivel barrel band, if perhaps Ozzie had acquired a different one at the time of acquiring the barrel? Or maybe he acquired an entire "parts" rifle, swapped the parts he needed to swap to turn the 36-inch Carcano from Klein's into a 40-inch rifle, and then disposed of the rest. Might also explain where he obtained a clip [magazine].

Edited May 25, 2006 by Mark Knight

[Chuck Robbins]

Everybody seems to miss the significance that

THE RIFLE IN THE BACKYARD PHOTO WAS NOT

THE RIFLE FOUND IN THE DEPOSITORY.

The BACKYARD photo was the ONLY EVIDENCE

tying LHO to A MC-RIFLE. Nobody alleges that

he owned TWO MC-RIFLES!

Therefore if the rifle he is pictured with is not

the one in the sniper nest, OSWALD IS EXONERATED!

The patsy framers used TWO DIFFERENT RIFLES

TO FRAME OSWALD. One was shown in a FAKED

photograph. One was planted on the Sixth Floor.

The photo is NOW DISCREDITED as evidence showing

LHO owned the "murder weapon".

What's left? Harry Holmes dubious tracing to a

mail order placed with Kleins by an A. Hidell.

Who is he?

Jack

Jack,

If memory serves me right, Hoover had told Johnson, in one of their phone conversations, that a woman named A. Hidell got the rifle.

George DeMohrenshilt had a Daughter named Alex who, according to her father, was at one time close to LHO and his family.

This is strictly conjecture, but, I think it is very possible that Alex D. may have been the woman Hoover spoke of. Alek/Alex? I wonder.

Now, off topic, but semi-related to the possible exoneration of LHO, is the following story.

In that same conversation, Hoover also told Johnson that the assassin kept his rifle at his Mothers' house. Wesley Frazier, not LHO, kept his rifle at his Mothers' house.

Frazier was also arrested and had his rifle and ammunition confiscated on the 22nd. Where did they go to get the rifle? Mom's house.

Curiously, when the police asked where Wesley could be found, his sister told them that he was visiting his father at PARKLAND HOSPITAL.

At some point the story changed and he was supposedly at a clinic instead of Parkland.

Anyway, you asked who HE (A. Hidell) was, and it may have been that Hidell was not a he at all.

Chuck

[Thomas H. Purvis]

In 1994, I wasn't aware of the sling swivel differences, as I had taken a hiatus from the JFK assassination material. But the nagging thought that I'd overlooked something, something simple, brought me back. By 1996 I started looking at the books and the photos again, and a couple of years ago I found this forum.

I believe that Tom may be onto something...had Oswald lived, and then produced a 36-inch Carcano AFTER prosecutors had a 40-inch Carcano in custody, it would've blown the case against Oswald right out of the water. And since the rifle from Klein's was supposed to be a 36-inch Carcano, the presence of the 40-inch Carcano creates a BIG problem.

But no 36-inch Carcano was produced before the public, or remains in evidence. And with Oswald dead, he can't unlock this possible mystery. But let's suppose, for a moment that there IS a link to the 40-inch Carcano...and it's through Empire Wholesale Sporting Goods, Limited, of Montreal, which was also the source for Oswald's revolver. If Oswald had managed to produce the 36-inch Carcano with the "correct" serial number, while on the other hand the police had in custody the 40-inch Carcano with the "same" serial number...does this not complicate the case? And since police cannot trace the purchase of the 40-inch Carcano to Oswald--only the 36-inch rifle came from Klein's--the only thing THEN tying the alleged murder weapon to Oswald is the palm print UNDER the barrel, and UNDER the wood trim.

But that would mean that Oswald had, at one time or another, had the 40-inch Carcano in his possession in a disassembled or partially-disassembled state. Or perhaps...perhaps...those folks at Empire, who had all those "salvage" Carcanos, didn't provide Oswald with the 40-inch Carcano at all. Perhaps Oswald merely acquired a replacement BARREL --from Empire??--to MAKE his 36-inch Carcano into a 40-inch Carcano. Perhaps Empire, like Klein's, also had CIA ties...and was able to find a barrel made at another manufacturing plant that had the "correct" serial number, that would make Oswald's 36-inch rifle into a 40-inch rifle.

Replacing a barrel would, of course, explain the palm print being found where it was allegedly found on the 40-inch, TSBD rifle. But WHY one would want the serial numbers to be the same--and how one could obtain a barrel with the "correct" serial number--takes us deeper and deeper into untested areas...based upon nothing more than a hunch. And since Empire didn't record serial numbers...I don't think there's any way to prove whether or not this might have happened.

The WC's examination of Ozzie's finances would imply very strongly that this DIDN'T occur, because it can be implied that he simply didn't have enough money to buy a second barrel from anywhere. Of course, since his 1962 tax return is almost totally redacted, it's impossible to refute the WC's numbers.

But how about it, Tom...would Oswald re-barreling the gun fit into one of the holes in the puzzle here? And might that not also explain the difference in the sling swivel barrel band, if perhaps Ozzie had acquired a different one at the time of acquiring the barrel? Or maybe he acquired an entire "parts" rifle, swapped the parts he needed to swap to turn the 36-inch Carcano from Klein's into a 40-inch rifle, and then disposed of the rest. Might also explain where he obtained a clip [magazine].

Close, but no cigar!

I will further explain, away from all of the clutter we are gaining on the subject.

[Chuck Robbins]

Nevertheless, the US government has presented two Mannlicher Carcano rifles numbered C2766 as evidence.

A close evaluation of the serial numbers in published photographs of the rifles, clearly shows differences in the configuration of the numbers 2766 and the letter C. Whether there are several Mannlicher Carcanos with this particular serial number or not, is of little significance, when the key point in this case is there is ample proof of evidence tampering and other foul play, i.e. a massive cover-up and frame-up.

However!

Those who are/may be somewhat more familiar with generation of "smoke", are also aware of the fact that there are many different ways and means of leading one down the wrong trail and away from the fire.

Therefore one must always be aware that this mirror is "multi-faceted", and were there not some ultimate reason for it, much of the smoke that has been followed, would have never been generated to begin with.

Just because one "smells smoke" is not even an absolute indicator of a true fire.

Therefore, not unlike other items, were I to want to send persons "chasing smoke" as in the general stupidity of the "Body Kidnapping/Wound Alteration" scenario, then I would merely have to allow someone to photograph a different weapon than the truly found "C2766", knowing that in event someone did not ultimately find the serial number problem, that I could always covertly point it to someone's attention, and thus send many, many persons running in all directions, and creating all forms of additional speculative scenario's.

Thus generating "GREAT CLOUDS" of additional smoke!---Not to mention also getting an additional laugh or two out of the exercise.

It is difficult for me to understand your "smoke" analogy when it is applied to the very real, and observabe, evidence that there are two rifles.

This is not smoke. It is not fire. It is evidence which can be observed, handled and compared to photos of the other rifle.

Your post seems to insinuate that one of these rifles was merely used as a ploy to push people off-track. I , on the other hand, believe finding proof of two rifles has actually drawn us closer to the right track.

With this type of evidence, which indicates official involvement in evidence alteration and manufacture,

the smoke has been cleared from, and has exposed to us, more proof of the cover-up.

Your post was cryptic and seemed to me to be generating smoke...which was being blown in a rather private area.

No offense intended,

Chuck

[Thomas H. Purvis]

Nevertheless, the US government has presented two Mannlicher Carcano rifles numbered C2766 as evidence.

A close evaluation of the serial numbers in published photographs of the rifles, clearly shows differences in the configuration of the numbers 2766 and the letter C. Whether there are several Mannlicher Carcanos with this particular serial number or not, is of little significance, when the key point in this case is there is ample proof of evidence tampering and other foul play, i.e. a massive cover-up and frame-up.

However!

Those who are/may be somewhat more familiar with generation of "smoke", are also aware of the fact that there are many different ways and means of leading one down the wrong trail and away from the fire.

Therefore one must always be aware that this mirror is "multi-faceted", and were there not some ultimate reason for it, much of the smoke that has been followed, would have never been generated to begin with.

Just because one "smells smoke" is not even an absolute indicator of a true fire.

Therefore, not unlike other items, were I to want to send persons "chasing smoke" as in the general stupidity of the "Body Kidnapping/Wound Alteration" scenario, then I would merely have to allow someone to photograph a different weapon than the truly found "C2766", knowing that in event someone did not ultimately find the serial number problem, that I could always covertly point it to someone's attention, and thus send many, many persons running in all directions, and creating all forms of additional speculative scenario's.

Thus generating "GREAT CLOUDS" of additional smoke!---Not to mention also getting an additional laugh or two out of the exercise.

It is difficult for me to understand your "smoke" analogy when it is applied to the very real, and observabe, evidence that there are two rifles.

This is not smoke. It is not fire. It is evidence which can be observed, handled and compared to photos of the other rifle.

Your post seems to insinuate that one of these rifles was merely used as a ploy to push people off-track. I , on the other hand, believe finding proof of two rifles has actually drawn us closer to the right track.

With this type of evidence, which indicates official involvement in evidence alteration and manufacture,

the smoke has been cleared from, and has exposed to us, more proof of the cover-up.

Your post was cryptic and seemed to me to be generating smoke...which was being blown in a rather private area.

No offense intended,

Chuck

It is difficult for me to understand your "smoke" analogy when it is applied to the very real, and observabe, evidence that there are two rifles

Different forward sling swivel bands-------------Yes!

Fairly well established by the photo.

However, hardly proof of "two" separate and distinct rifles, since sling swivel bands are interchangable on some models.

Your post was cryptic and seemed to me to be generating smoke...which was being blown in a rather private area.

Perhaps were one to consider it more in the light as being a "brain cell" stimulator, and as an attempt to persuade persons to remove their "blinders" in always accepting that there is only ONE singular answer to many items, then perhaps they would not take less offense and also not assume that I am attempting to create rectal cancer.

Far too many "strange" deaths as it is!

Edited May 25, 2006 by Thomas H. Purvis

[Thomas H. Purvis]

RECYCLE

Mark; for information, here is a portion of the 1994 letter to Chuck Marler, which has some basic discussion on the subject matter.

[Mark Knight]

Doing some "stream-of-consciousness" stuff here...Klein's...allegedly owned by Pepsi...for whom Nixon was attending a meeting...in Dallas...on November 21-22, 1963...

Any of this connect with where you're attempting to lead me?

I think a barrel swap might explain a lot of things...but since you say the sling swivel bands are NOT interchangable, that brings us back to the existence of two distinct rifles: the one in the "backyard photos," ostensibly the 36" one ordered from Klein's, and the 40" one found in the TSBD.

Obviously, I'm not clear on where you're headed with this. I'm just seeking the truth, I'm not trying to sell a particular viewpoint at this time...and with all the "smoke," it's hard to see where you're headed on this.

[Thomas H. Purvis]

Doing some "stream-of-consciousness" stuff here...Klein's...allegedly owned by Pepsi...for whom Nixon was attending a meeting...in Dallas...on November 21-22, 1963...

Any of this connect with where you're attempting to lead me?

I think a barrel swap might explain a lot of things...but since you say the sling swivel bands are NOT interchangable, that brings us back to the existence of two distinct rifles: the one in the "backyard photos," ostensibly the 36" one ordered from Klein's, and the 40" one found in the TSBD.

Obviously, I'm not clear on where you're headed with this. I'm just seeking the truth, I'm not trying to sell a particular viewpoint at this time...and with all the "smoke," it's hard to see where you're headed on this.

Any of this connect with where you're attempting to lead me?

Merely here to point out a few little known and somewhat verifiable facts.

In the early days of the Vietnam war, it was being fought primarily through the usage of a variety of indigenous forces which included everything from various mountain tribesmen, to lots of little drug lords.

Thus, the "Air America" scenario's with the various advisors, most of whom were either Special Forces personnel serving a 6-month TDY tour of duty there, and most of whom worked in conjunction with and/or through some form of CIA liason.

A primary problem with the drug/heroin was in the lack of refining capability, which required transport of a considerable amount of the product to a facility which could begin the first stages of chemical reduction.

Another problem being the availability of the actual chemicals.

In that regards, Pepsi-Cola constructed a Pepsi bottling plant in SE Asia, which for all practical purposes never bottled a single bottle of Pepsi-cola.

Later US Senate investigations revealed that it was a part of a CIA "Front" operation, utilizing Pepsi-Cola, in which large amounts of the chemicals necessary to get the heroin refined down, could be provided with little questioning of the chemicals being brought into country.

This is all a matter of old US Senate Investigative records.

The "Pepsi" connection has been referred to previously on this forum, in which Mr. Dolva and I have had some comments in regards to a photo that was taken along the parade route which showed the Presidential Limousine and occupants, with a large and distinctive Pepsi sign in the background.

I also made reference to the standing joke about RM Nixon getting Kruschev to drink a Pepsi, and be photographed doing it.

And yes, one can rest assured that RMN's associations to the CIA and Pepsi are what landed his first "real job" as a lawyer with the law firm who handled Pepsi's affairs, and Pepsi was RMN's only client while there.

Not to mention his beginning salary of $75,000.00 per year.

And of course his later "upward mobility" movement within the Pepsi organization, up to and include Pepsi Cola initiating the "Soft Drink Bottler's Convention" in Dallas, TX on 11/21/63 in which RMN was the guest speaker, and which also effectively dictated exactly what building in Dallas that JFK would have his luncheon at.

Which one might add, also effectively dictated the route to be taken to the luncheon site.

I would think that it is time for a few facts in regards to the Carcano.

[Mark Knight]

I have always felt that Nixon had a hand in what went on in Dallas on the 22nd...

Now, I knew the story about the original formula for Coca-Cola containing cocaine; I just wasn't aware the Pepsi had upped the ante to Southeast Asian heroin. [Any chance there might be some Afghan herion involved in the current post-9/11 adventure there? Possibly a topic for a separate post.]

Could you elaborate on the Pepsi involvement with Klein's? I'm not clear on any details, other than your allegation. I know you've been able to show the chain of connections between New Orleans, United Fruit et al, and Mr. Oswald; perhaps you could construct a similar paper trail that I might be capable of following regarding Pepsi-Cola and Klein's.

[Michael Hogan]

Another casualty from the Coke-Pepsi wars.....

http://www.extremefunnyhumor.com/picture.php?id=265

[Shanet Clark]

Chuck

You think the slip of the tongue "Alice Hidell" which J.Edgar Hoover

mentioned on tape to Lyndon Johnson may be

a reference to 'Alex' / 'Alice' DEMORENSCHILDT?

I like the way you approach things.........

[Thomas H. Purvis]

I have always felt that Nixon had a hand in what went on in Dallas on the 22nd...

Now, I knew the story about the original formula for Coca-Cola containing cocaine; I just wasn't aware the Pepsi had upped the ante to Southeast Asian heroin. [Any chance there might be some Afghan herion involved in the current post-9/11 adventure there? Possibly a topic for a separate post.]

Could you elaborate on the Pepsi involvement with Klein's? I'm not clear on any details, other than your allegation. I know you've been able to show the chain of connections between New Orleans, United Fruit et al, and Mr. Oswald; perhaps you could construct a similar paper trail that I might be capable of following regarding Pepsi-Cola and Klein's.

The Pepsi ownership was discovered by none other than Massad Ayoob during his research into the Carcano and his test firing work.

He discovered this "tidbit" of information and had no idea as to it's "net worth".

And, although I never took the time to follow all the way through, Mr. Ayoob assures that it is correct.

And I personally have little doubts that he is also correct.

This however DOES NOT mean that RMN had any involvment. It merely means that persons such as have knowledge of CIA Operations as well as how to utilize it's assets, can easily manipulate various events until the stage is fully set for the main event.

Although I have copies of the information relative to the SE Asia drug processing, it would no doubt be a waste of time to even attempt to find it.

I will nevertheless look around and see what I can come up with.