Of Slings & Swivels

[Thomas H. Purvis]

For the official story to be so, two cartridges are unaccounted for. The clip initially had

to have SIX (it will not load with fewer), so the first two rounds had to have been fired

elsewhere.

Jack

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The enbloc clip is designed to hold six rounds, and can be

loaded with less if the shooter takes time to insert the clip carefully so

that it does not misalign the cartridges or that the cartridge bases do not

come disengaged from the slot retainer at the base of the clip.

Craig Roberts

LtCol. IN, USAR, Ret.

Tulsa PD, Ret.

Cedar Creek Firearms Training Academy

www.riflewarrior.com

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Having just taken the female member of this household (Barbara Ann), who has never fired or handled a rifle in her entire life, I demonstrated ONE SINGLE TIME how to load the Carcano clip with 4 rounds installed, into the 6.5mm Model 91/38 which I drug out with the ammo and boxes.

After having shown her, I handed her the rifle as well as the ammo clip, with the 4-rounds.

It took her all of 10 seconds to properly load the clip into the weapon. And the delay was because she had never experienced the "click" which the clip makes when it is fully seated in place and the clip release locks it into place, and she was therefore hesitant as to whether she had or hand not pushed the clip down into the magazine far enough.

DIFFICULTY RATING: 1 on a scale of 10.

Personally, I would be somewhat embarassed to even bring this up as if it were some issue of relevance.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Mark Knight]

For some decent photos of Mannlicher-Carcano rifles, I found an auction site that has a great number and excellent detail:

Auction Pics

and for a variety of Carcanos, try the same seller's website:

Carcano Variety Pack

These photos are more clear than most I've seen on the internet, and just might help folks understand some of the differences in the rifles.

AND...in the first link...pay attention to photo #13 and the detail of the sling swivel.

[Thomas H. Purvis]

For some decent photos of Mannlicher-Carcano rifles, I found an auction site that has a great number and excellent detail:

Auction Pics

and for a variety of Carcanos, try the same seller's website:

Carcano Variety Pack

These photos are more clear than most I've seen on the internet, and just might help folks understand some of the differences in the rifles.

AND...in the first link...pay attention to photo #13 and the detail of the sling swivel.

Certainly worthy of comment.

As regards the 6.5mm ammo and the "RELOADABLE" clips.

Italian 6.5mm X 52mm Ammunition[/b]

From discussions on this board, one could begin to think that the 6-shot Carcano rifle was the only weapon which the Italian Army had.

Not quite so!

The 6.5mm X52mm ammunition was officially adopted with the acceptance of the Model 1891 Carcano, as the official weapon of the Italian military forces.

However, there were considerably more weapons in the Italian inventory than merely a bolt action rifle which held a 6-round clip.

Machine Guns:

Beginning in 1901 and continuing into WWII, the Italian military utilized a variety of machine guns, most of which were chambered for the 6.5mm X 52mm (Carcano) ammunition.

1. Perino Machine Gun: (Often referred to as the "MAXIM") Invented in 1901, and officially adopted in 1906, the 1906 and 1911 models were chambered to fire the standard 6.5mm ammunition.

This weapon operated of a "straight" stripper type clip which held (25) 6.5mm rounds.

2. Colt Model 1914, Browning "Potato Digger": During WWI, the Italian Government purchased these american made weapons in the 6.5mm caliber, which was made specifically for them by Colt.

3. Revelli Machine Gun: (Often referred to as the "FIAT") The model 1914. Adopted in 1924 as the official Machine Gun of Italian forces, this weapon was chambered to fire the standard 6.5mm ammunition.

It operated from a reloadable clip, however the "automatic" discharge of the clip frequently created damage to the clip itself, thus rendering it non-reusable.

4. S.I.A Machine Gun: A modified version of the Revili Machine Gun, the Italian Government orderd these in 6.5mm caliber, but the weapon was not produced in time to see WWI service. However, the weapons were produced and even saw limited service in WWII.

This weapon operated from a top-loading, (similar to the Gatling Gun) reloadable "banana" clip which held 25 rounds.

5. The Brixia Machine Gun: This limited issue weapon was first produced in 1920 and was produced in a water-cooled as well as air-cooled version. It incorporated two unique features which were a controlled rate of fire switch as well as a "box-fed" system in which the ammunition could be fired only from the pre-packaged boxes.

6. Breda Machine Gun: Beginning in 1924, this weapon in the standard 6.5mm ammunition was accepted.

This weapon operated from a side-loading, reloadable clip and went through several variations up until the Model 1930 which was the standard light machine gun of Italian forces during WWII.

7. Scotti Machine Gun: Introduced in 1928, limited production, and was never fully adopted by the Italian military.

8. Sistar Machince Gun: Introduced in 1932 and produced primarly only in prototypes, this weapon, not unlike the Scotti Machine Gun, was never introduced into full service.

Rifles

One hears much about the Carcano, which was of course the standard weapon of issue to infantry type Italian forces. However, the Italians were not so far behind that they did not also have other "assault" type rifles as well.

And although only produced in limited numbers during the WWII period, these weapons also utilized the standard 6.5mm Carcano ammunition.

1. Breda G.P. Rifle: This was a limited production, selective fire (automatic or semi-automatic) weapon which was produced in the 6.5mm caliber. It operated off a bottom fed, reloadable magazine (almost identical to today's M-16 rifle) and carried a 20 round capability.

2. 6.5mm Scotti Brescia Model X Rifle: Manufactured in 1931, this semi-automatic rifle in the 6.5mm caliber was also produced in limited numbers during the war years. It utilized the Mannlichler type clip, and although details are scarce on this weapon, it is believed that it utilized the standard Carcano clip.

Others:

It would be remiss to not also point out that even during WWII, some Italian forces were armed with weapons of "vintage"/virtually antique age.

These included:

1. Numerous Model 1895 as well as Model 1889 Mannlicher rifles (Austrian Weapons) were re-barreled and re-worked to fire the 6.5mm Carcano cartridge.

2. A limited amount of the extremely old Vetterli Vitali rifles were re-barreled and re-worked to accept and fire the 6.5mm Carcano cartridge.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Much of the true "Carcano" ammunition was loaded into the re-loadable 6-round Carcano clip. And, this ammunition was standardly issued in boxes which contained 18-rounds. (3-fully loaded 6-round clips)

The ammo boxes were constructed with two cardboard dividers located in the bottom portion of the box, which effectively divided the bottom of the box into three equi-distant portions.

The loaded 6-round clips were inserted into the boxes with the bullet nose downward and the clip portion at the top of the box, and which the the flap of the box folded over the clips.

In this manner, when extracting the ammunition, the loaded clip could be grasped first, with less risk of separation of the ammunition.

This, is the standard issue Carcano ammo.

However, due to the numerous 6.5mm weapons in the Italian inventory, 6.5mm ammo was boxed and sacked in a great variety of variations, as some machine guns utilized expendable "stripper" clips, while those such as the Breda Model-30 utilized re-loadable magazine clips.

Thus, 6.5mm "Carcano" ammunition can be found in an extremely wide variety of boxes, cartons, crates, sacks, etc.

This is also why the Italians chose to utilize the completely recoverable and completely reloadable Carcano Clip.

No matter what weapon ammunition the individual soldier got his hands on, he could always extract the ammo and reload his 6-round clip.

Throughout the life of the Carcano, multitudes of the clips were recovered and returned to the rear where they were reloaded at the factory with new ammunition and thus replaced back into service.

Those who have considerable experience in collection of ammunition, can attest to the fact that many boxes of Carcano ammunition which were produced for WWII, and had remained un-opened, were found to contain a variety of clips, some of which could be traced back as far as WWI vintage.

In event an individual soldier allowed all of his Carcano clips to be discharged and completely discarded, and should he for some reason only have access to 6.5mm ammunition as provided for any of the numerous other versions of 6.5mm weapons in service in the Italian inventory, then, this highly intelligent soldier had just relegated himself to a single shot weapon, irrelevant as to how much 6.5mm ammunition he may get his hands onto.

[Thomas H. Purvis]

For some decent photos of Mannlicher-Carcano rifles, I found an auction site that has a great number and excellent detail:

Auction Pics

and for a variety of Carcanos, try the same seller's website:

Carcano Variety Pack

These photos are more clear than most I've seen on the internet, and just might help folks understand some of the differences in the rifles.

AND...in the first link...pay attention to photo #13 and the detail of the sling swivel.

Certainly worthy of comment.

As regards the 6.5mm ammo and the "RELOADABLE" clips.

Italian 6.5mm X 52mm Ammunition[/b]

From discussions on this board, one could begin to think that the 6-shot Carcano rifle was the only weapon which the Italian Army had.

Not quite so!

The 6.5mm X52mm ammunition was officially adopted with the acceptance of the Model 1891 Carcano, as the official weapon of the Italian military forces.

However, there were considerably more weapons in the Italian inventory than merely a bolt action rifle which held a 6-round clip.

Machine Guns:

Beginning in 1901 and continuing into WWII, the Italian military utilized a variety of machine guns, most of which were chambered for the 6.5mm X 52mm (Carcano) ammunition.

1. Perino Machine Gun: (Often referred to as the "MAXIM") Invented in 1901, and officially adopted in 1906, the 1906 and 1911 models were chambered to fire the standard 6.5mm ammunition.

This weapon operated of a "straight" stripper type clip which held (25) 6.5mm rounds.

2. Colt Model 1914, Browning "Potato Digger": During WWI, the Italian Government purchased these american made weapons in the 6.5mm caliber, which was made specifically for them by Colt.

3. Revelli Machine Gun: (Often referred to as the "FIAT") The model 1914. Adopted in 1924 as the official Machine Gun of Italian forces, this weapon was chambered to fire the standard 6.5mm ammunition.

It operated from a 50 round* reloadable clip, however the "automatic" discharge of the clip frequently created damage to the clip itself, thus rendering it non-reusable.

*It also had a special 100 round anti-aircraft clip. This weapon came with a special "loading tool" constructed of wood, which was utilized to reload the magazines.

http://www.smallarmsreview.com/pdf/Fiat.pdf

4. S.I.A Machine Gun: A modified version of the Revili Machine Gun, the Italian Government orderd these in 6.5mm caliber, but the weapon was not produced in time to see WWI service. However, the weapons were produced and even saw limited service in WWII.

This weapon operated from a top-loading, (similar to the Gatling Gun) reloadable "banana" clip which held 25 rounds.

5. The Brixia Machine Gun: This limited issue weapon was first produced in 1920 and was produced in a water-cooled as well as air-cooled version. It incorporated two unique features which were a controlled rate of fire switch as well as a "box-fed" system in which the ammunition could be fired only from the pre-packaged boxes.

6. Breda Machine Gun: Beginning in 1924, this weapon in the standard 6.5mm ammunition was accepted.

This weapon operated from a side-loading, reloadable clip and went through several variations up until the Model 1930 which was the standard light machine gun of Italian forces during WWII.

7. Scotti Machine Gun: Introduced in 1928, limited production, and was never fully adopted by the Italian military.

8. Sistar Machince Gun: Introduced in 1932 and produced primarly only in prototypes, this weapon, not unlike the Scotti Machine Gun, was never introduced into full service.

Rifles

One hears much about the Carcano, which was of course the standard weapon of issue to infantry type Italian forces. However, the Italians were not so far behind that they did not also have other "assault" type rifles as well.

And although only produced in limited numbers during the WWII period, these weapons also utilized the standard 6.5mm Carcano ammunition.

1. Breda G.P. Rifle: This was a limited production, selective fire (automatic or semi-automatic) weapon which was produced in the 6.5mm caliber. It operated off a bottom fed, reloadable magazine (almost identical to today's M-16 rifle) and carried a 20 round capability.

2. 6.5mm Scotti Brescia Model X Rifle: Manufactured in 1931, this semi-automatic rifle in the 6.5mm caliber was also produced in limited numbers during the war years. It utilized the Mannlichler type clip, and although details are scarce on this weapon, it is believed that it utilized the standard Carcano clip.

Others:

It would be remiss to not also point out that even during WWII, some Italian forces were armed with weapons of "vintage"/virtually antique age.

These included:

1. Numerous Model 1895 as well as Model 1889 Mannlicher rifles (Austrian Weapons) were re-barreled and re-worked to fire the 6.5mm Carcano cartridge.

2. A limited amount of the extremely old Vetterli Vitali rifles were re-barreled and re-worked to accept and fire the 6.5mm Carcano cartridge.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Much of the true "Carcano" ammunition was loaded into the re-loadable 6-round Carcano clip. And, this ammunition was standardly issued in boxes which contained 18-rounds. (3-fully loaded 6-round clips)

The ammo boxes were constructed with two cardboard dividers located in the bottom portion of the box, which effectively divided the bottom of the box into three equi-distant portions.

The loaded 6-round clips were inserted into the boxes with the bullet nose downward and the clip portion at the top of the box, and which the the flap of the box folded over the clips.

In this manner, when extracting the ammunition, the loaded clip could be grasped first, with less risk of separation of the ammunition.

This, is the standard issue Carcano ammo.

However, due to the numerous 6.5mm weapons in the Italian inventory, 6.5mm ammo was boxed and sacked in a great variety of variations, as some machine guns utilized expendable "stripper" clips, while those such as the Breda Model-30 utilized re-loadable magazine clips.

Thus, 6.5mm "Carcano" ammunition can be found in an extremely wide variety of boxes, cartons, crates, sacks, etc.

This is also why the Italians chose to utilize the completely recoverable and completely reloadable Carcano Clip.

No matter what weapon ammunition the individual soldier got his hands on, he could always extract the ammo and reload his 6-round clip.

Throughout the life of the Carcano, multitudes of the clips were recovered and returned to the rear where they were reloaded at the factory with new ammunition and thus replaced back into service.

Those who have considerable experience in collection of ammunition, can attest to the fact that many boxes of Carcano ammunition which were produced for WWII, and had remained un-opened, were found to contain a variety of clips, some of which could be traced back as far as WWI vintage.

In event an individual soldier allowed all of his Carcano clips to be discharged and completely discarded, and should he for some reason only have access to 6.5mm ammunition as provided for any of the numerous other versions of 6.5mm weapons in service in the Italian inventory, then, this highly intelligent soldier had just relegated himself to a single shot weapon, irrelevant as to how much 6.5mm ammunition he may get his hands onto.

[Thomas H. Purvis]

For some decent photos of Mannlicher-Carcano rifles, I found an auction site that has a great number and excellent detail:

Auction Pics

and for a variety of Carcanos, try the same seller's website:

Carcano Variety Pack

These photos are more clear than most I've seen on the internet, and just might help folks understand some of the differences in the rifles.

AND...in the first link...pay attention to photo #13 and the detail of the sling swivel.

Certainly worthy of comment.

As regards the 6.5mm ammo and the "RELOADABLE" clips.

Italian 6.5mm X 52mm Ammunition[/b]

From discussions on this board, one could begin to think that the 6-shot Carcano rifle was the only weapon which the Italian Army had.

Not quite so!

The 6.5mm X52mm ammunition was officially adopted with the acceptance of the Model 1891 Carcano, as the official weapon of the Italian military forces.

However, there were considerably more weapons in the Italian inventory than merely a bolt action rifle which held a 6-round clip.

Machine Guns:

Beginning in 1901 and continuing into WWII, the Italian military utilized a variety of machine guns, most of which were chambered for the 6.5mm X 52mm (Carcano) ammunition.

1. Perino Machine Gun: (Often referred to as the "MAXIM") Invented in 1901, and officially adopted in 1906, the 1906 and 1911 models were chambered to fire the standard 6.5mm ammunition.

This weapon operated of a "straight" stripper type clip which held (25) 6.5mm rounds.

2. Colt Model 1914, Browning "Potato Digger": During WWI, the Italian Government purchased these american made weapons in the 6.5mm caliber, which was made specifically for them by Colt.

3. Revelli Machine Gun: (Often referred to as the "FIAT") The model 1914. Adopted in 1924 as the official Machine Gun of Italian forces, this weapon was chambered to fire the standard 6.5mm ammunition.

It operated from a 50 round* reloadable clip, however the "automatic" discharge of the clip frequently created damage to the clip itself, thus rendering it non-reusable.

*It also had a special 100 round anti-aircraft clip. This weapon came with a special "loading tool" constructed of wood, which was utilized to reload the magazines.

http://www.smallarmsreview.com/pdf/Fiat.pdf

4. S.I.A Machine Gun: A modified version of the Revili Machine Gun, the Italian Government orderd these in 6.5mm caliber, but the weapon was not produced in time to see WWI service. However, the weapons were produced and even saw limited service in WWII.

This weapon operated from a top-loading, (similar to the Gatling Gun) reloadable "banana" clip which held 25 rounds.

5. The Brixia Machine Gun: This limited issue weapon was first produced in 1920 and was produced in a water-cooled as well as air-cooled version. It incorporated two unique features which were a controlled rate of fire switch as well as a "box-fed" system in which the ammunition could be fired only from the pre-packaged boxes.

6. Breda Machine Gun: Beginning in 1924, this weapon in the standard 6.5mm ammunition was accepted.

This weapon operated from a side-loading, reloadable clip and went through several variations up until the Model 1930 which was the standard light machine gun of Italian forces during WWII.

7. Scotti Machine Gun: Introduced in 1928, limited production, and was never fully adopted by the Italian military.

8. Sistar Machince Gun: Introduced in 1932 and produced primarly only in prototypes, this weapon, not unlike the Scotti Machine Gun, was never introduced into full service.

Rifles

One hears much about the Carcano, which was of course the standard weapon of issue to infantry type Italian forces. However, the Italians were not so far behind that they did not also have other "assault" type rifles as well.

And although only produced in limited numbers during the WWII period, these weapons also utilized the standard 6.5mm Carcano ammunition.

1. Breda G.P. Rifle: This was a limited production, selective fire (automatic or semi-automatic) weapon which was produced in the 6.5mm caliber. It operated off a bottom fed, reloadable magazine (almost identical to today's M-16 rifle) and carried a 20 round capability.

2. 6.5mm Scotti Brescia Model X Rifle: Manufactured in 1931, this semi-automatic rifle in the 6.5mm caliber was also produced in limited numbers during the war years. It utilized the Mannlichler type clip, and although details are scarce on this weapon, it is believed that it utilized the standard Carcano clip.

Others:

It would be remiss to not also point out that even during WWII, some Italian forces were armed with weapons of "vintage"/virtually antique age.

These included:

1. Numerous Model 1895 as well as Model 1889 Mannlicher rifles (Austrian Weapons) were re-barreled and re-worked to fire the 6.5mm Carcano cartridge.

2. A limited amount of the extremely old Vetterli Vitali rifles were re-barreled and re-worked to accept and fire the 6.5mm Carcano cartridge.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Much of the true "Carcano" ammunition was loaded into the re-loadable 6-round Carcano clip. And, this ammunition was standardly issued in boxes which contained 18-rounds. (3-fully loaded 6-round clips)

The ammo boxes were constructed with two cardboard dividers located in the bottom portion of the box, which effectively divided the bottom of the box into three equi-distant portions.

The loaded 6-round clips were inserted into the boxes with the bullet nose downward and the clip portion at the top of the box, and which the the flap of the box folded over the clips.

In this manner, when extracting the ammunition, the loaded clip could be grasped first, with less risk of separation of the ammunition.

This, is the standard issue Carcano ammo.

However, due to the numerous 6.5mm weapons in the Italian inventory, 6.5mm ammo was boxed and sacked in a great variety of variations, as some machine guns utilized expendable "stripper" clips, while those such as the Breda Model-30 utilized re-loadable magazine clips.

Thus, 6.5mm "Carcano" ammunition can be found in an extremely wide variety of boxes, cartons, crates, sacks, etc.

This is also why the Italians chose to utilize the completely recoverable and completely reloadable Carcano Clip.

No matter what weapon ammunition the individual soldier got his hands on, he could always extract the ammo and reload his 6-round clip.

Throughout the life of the Carcano, multitudes of the clips were recovered and returned to the rear where they were reloaded at the factory with new ammunition and thus replaced back into service.

Those who have considerable experience in collection of ammunition, can attest to the fact that many boxes of Carcano ammunition which were produced for WWII, and had remained un-opened, were found to contain a variety of clips, some of which could be traced back as far as WWI vintage.

In event an individual soldier allowed all of his Carcano clips to be discharged and completely discarded, and should he for some reason only have access to 6.5mm ammunition as provided for any of the numerous other versions of 6.5mm weapons in service in the Italian inventory, then, this highly intelligent soldier had just relegated himself to a single shot weapon, irrelevant as to how much 6.5mm ammunition he may get his hands onto.

[Thomas H. Purvis]

For some decent photos of Mannlicher-Carcano rifles, I found an auction site that has a great number and excellent detail:

Auction Pics

and for a variety of Carcanos, try the same seller's website:

Carcano Variety Pack

These photos are more clear than most I've seen on the internet, and just might help folks understand some of the differences in the rifles.

AND...in the first link...pay attention to photo #13 and the detail of the sling swivel.

Certainly worthy of comment.

As regards the 6.5mm ammo and the "RELOADABLE" clips.

Italian 6.5mm X 52mm Ammunition[/b]

From discussions on this board, one could begin to think that the 6-shot Carcano rifle was the only weapon which the Italian Army had.

Not quite so!

The 6.5mm X52mm ammunition was officially adopted with the acceptance of the Model 1891 Carcano, as the official weapon of the Italian military forces.

However, there were considerably more weapons in the Italian inventory than merely a bolt action rifle which held a 6-round clip.

Machine Guns:

Beginning in 1901 and continuing into WWII, the Italian military utilized a variety of machine guns, most of which were chambered for the 6.5mm X 52mm (Carcano) ammunition.

1. Perino Machine Gun: (Often referred to as the "MAXIM") Invented in 1901, and officially adopted in 1906, the 1906 and 1911 models were chambered to fire the standard 6.5mm ammunition.

This weapon operated of a "straight" stripper type clip which held (25) 6.5mm rounds.

2. Colt Model 1914, Browning "Potato Digger": During WWI, the Italian Government purchased these american made weapons in the 6.5mm caliber, which was made specifically for them by Colt.

3. Revelli Machine Gun: (Often referred to as the "FIAT") The model 1914. Adopted in 1924 as the official Machine Gun of Italian forces, this weapon was chambered to fire the standard 6.5mm ammunition.

It operated from a 50 round* reloadable clip, however the "automatic" discharge of the clip frequently created damage to the clip itself, thus rendering it non-reusable.

*It also had a special 100 round anti-aircraft clip. This weapon came with a special "loading tool" constructed of wood, which was utilized to reload the magazines.

http://www.smallarmsreview.com/pdf/Fiat.pdf

4. S.I.A Machine Gun: A modified version of the Revili Machine Gun, the Italian Government orderd these in 6.5mm caliber, but the weapon was not produced in time to see WWI service. However, the weapons were produced and even saw limited service in WWII.

This weapon operated from a top-loading, (similar to the Gatling Gun) reloadable "banana" clip which held 25 rounds.

5. The Brixia Machine Gun: This limited issue weapon was first produced in 1920 and was produced in a water-cooled as well as air-cooled version. It incorporated two unique features which were a controlled rate of fire switch as well as a "box-fed" system in which the ammunition could be fired only from the pre-packaged boxes.

6. Breda Machine Gun: Beginning in 1924, this weapon in the standard 6.5mm ammunition was accepted.

This weapon operated from a side-loading, reloadable clip and went through several variations up until the Model 1930 which was the standard light machine gun of Italian forces during WWII.

7. Scotti Machine Gun: Introduced in 1928, limited production, and was never fully adopted by the Italian military.

8. Sistar Machince Gun: Introduced in 1932 and produced primarly only in prototypes, this weapon, not unlike the Scotti Machine Gun, was never introduced into full service.

Rifles

One hears much about the Carcano, which was of course the standard weapon of issue to infantry type Italian forces. However, the Italians were not so far behind that they did not also have other "assault" type rifles as well.

And although only produced in limited numbers during the WWII period, these weapons also utilized the standard 6.5mm Carcano ammunition.

1. Breda G.P. Rifle: This was a limited production, selective fire (automatic or semi-automatic) weapon which was produced in the 6.5mm caliber. It operated off a bottom fed, reloadable magazine (almost identical to today's M-16 rifle) and carried a 20 round capability.

2. 6.5mm Scotti Brescia Model X Rifle: Manufactured in 1931, this semi-automatic rifle in the 6.5mm caliber was also produced in limited numbers during the war years. It utilized the Mannlichler type clip, and although details are scarce on this weapon, it is believed that it utilized the standard Carcano clip.

Others:

It would be remiss to not also point out that even during WWII, some Italian forces were armed with weapons of "vintage"/virtually antique age.

These included:

1. Numerous Model 1895 as well as Model 1889 Mannlicher rifles (Austrian Weapons) were re-barreled and re-worked to fire the 6.5mm Carcano cartridge.

2. A limited amount of the extremely old Vetterli Vitali rifles were re-barreled and re-worked to accept and fire the 6.5mm Carcano cartridge.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Much of the true "Carcano" ammunition was loaded into the re-loadable 6-round Carcano clip. And, this ammunition was standardly issued in boxes which contained 18-rounds. (3-fully loaded 6-round clips)

The ammo boxes were constructed with two cardboard dividers located in the bottom portion of the box, which effectively divided the bottom of the box into three equi-distant portions.

The loaded 6-round clips were inserted into the boxes with the bullet nose downward and the clip portion at the top of the box, and which the the flap of the box folded over the clips.

In this manner, when extracting the ammunition, the loaded clip could be grasped first, with less risk of separation of the ammunition.

This, is the standard issue Carcano ammo.

However, due to the numerous 6.5mm weapons in the Italian inventory, 6.5mm ammo was boxed and sacked in a great variety of variations, as some machine guns utilized expendable "stripper" clips, while those such as the Breda Model-30 utilized re-loadable magazine clips.

Thus, 6.5mm "Carcano" ammunition can be found in an extremely wide variety of boxes, cartons, crates, sacks, etc.

This is also why the Italians chose to utilize the completely recoverable and completely reloadable Carcano Clip.

No matter what weapon ammunition the individual soldier got his hands on, he could always extract the ammo and reload his 6-round clip.

Throughout the life of the Carcano, multitudes of the clips were recovered and returned to the rear where they were reloaded at the factory with new ammunition and thus replaced back into service.

Those who have considerable experience in collection of ammunition, can attest to the fact that many boxes of Carcano ammunition which were produced for WWII, and had remained un-opened, were found to contain a variety of clips, some of which could be traced back as far as WWI vintage.

In event an individual soldier allowed all of his Carcano clips to be discharged and completely discarded, and should he for some reason only have access to 6.5mm ammunition as provided for any of the numerous other versions of 6.5mm weapons in service in the Italian inventory, then, this highly intelligent soldier had just relegated himself to a single shot weapon, irrelevant as to how much 6.5mm ammunition he may get his hands onto.

The Carcano ammunition, as produced by Western Cartridge Company, was boxed in 20 rounds to the box.

There were absolutely no ammo clips provided with this ammunition.

Therefore, one could be so ignorant of the facts of the Carcano and it's recoverable and reloadable clips to assume that the WCC 6.5mm Carcano ammo was intended to be fired a single shot at a time, or else, one could understand and accept that due to the recoverability and reloadable capacity of the Carcano clip, that whoever this new WCC quality ammunition was made for, also had access to adequate clips as well.

Tom

P.S. Ammunition produced for true covert operations neither contains the "WCC" headstamp on the cartridge base,(as does the WCC 6.5mm ammo) nor does each box of ammunition contain a paper slip which fully identifies the DA Ordnance Specification to which the ammunition was constructed.

[Thomas H. Purvis]

Mannlicher to "Mannlicher Carcano" Clip

http://www.modernfirearms.net/rifle/rfl18-e.htm

http://www.surplusrifle.com/shooting/steyr...rangereport.pdf

The PDF document shows an excellent photograph of the back side of the Mannlicher clip which is completely flat with the exception of the clip latch/locking protrusion.

It is also noted how this protrusion progresses from the bottom side to the top. This is in order to force the clip latch back and allow the clip to be fully inserted down into the magazine until such time as the latch catches and secures the clip into place.

Additional information regarding the single direction in which this clip had to be loaded is also noteworthy

[Mark Knight]

OK...so my initial use of the term "stripper clip" was actually correct, because that's essentially what this is.

[Thomas H. Purvis]

OK...so my initial use of the term "stripper clip" was actually correct, because that's essentially what this is.

The Mannlicher design refers to the "En Bloc" clip which the design utilized in which the clip is actually inserted down into the magazine of the weapon. This is the design for the Carcano, as well as the later M1-Garand.

It is, and was a unique concept

1. It is not a "magazine", therefore it is a "clip".

2. Each round is individually "stripped" out of the clip, therefore, it is technically a "stripper clip".

Just that this action occurs within the "En Bloc" design of the magazine housing of the rifle.

3. Unlike disposable stripper clips, the Carcano clip is fully reloadable.

4. Therefore, it is a reloadable stripper clip, or reloadable clip, either being correct.

However! As we all know, with time and new inventions, new terminology has been invented to keep up with the new items of design and construction.

Those of us who are old enough to have carried the M1-Garand, recall it's clip being referred to as a "stripper clip".

And, when we got to the M-16, the ammo was issued in disposable "Charger Clips" which were utilized to speed-load the magazine.

The term "Stripper Clip" has come to represent a disposable holder which is used primarily to recharge a magazine and thus avoid having to load rounds into the magazine one at a time.

The correct name for this was once a "Charger Clip".

Some early day weapons which had a "magazine" built into the weapon, could also be loaded with this Charger Clip design.

As example, the machine gun can be found in models which were fed by:

1. Drum fed

2. Fully reloadable magazine fed

3. Reloadable Clip fed

4. Disposable Clip fed

5. Desposable link/belt fed

6. Belt fed

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stripper_clip

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clip

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magazine_%28firearm%29

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steyr_Mannlicher_M1894

This is one of the earliest known "Recharger Clips", for a pistol, in which the rounds were pushed out of the clip down into the weapon in which the actual magazine was down in the handle of the weapon.

One of the early day Italian Machine Guns operated off an identical "straight" disposable stripper clip which was fed from a box of these clips.

Were I to merely show someone one of these machine gun clips, then they would immediately think that it was a "Recharger Clip", when in fact it was fed from a box on the left hand side of the gun and the weapon "stripped" the round.

RIFLES OF THE WORLD

CHARGER: A device for loading a magazine firearm.

Chargers are confusingly known as "clips" (q.v.)in North America, or sometimes as "stripper clips' to avoid problems of communication.

CLIP: A method of loading a magazine with several cartrides held in a special holder. The entire assembly is placed in the magazine.

The term "clip" is widely used in North America to descibe a "charger". It has also gained increasing popularity among European sporting-rifle manufacturers to denota a detachable box magazine.

[Thomas H. Purvis]

OK...so my initial use of the term "stripper clip" was actually correct, because that's essentially what this is.

The Mannlicher design refers to the "En Bloc" clip which the design utilized in which the clip is actually inserted down into the magazine of the weapon. This is the design for the Carcano, as well as the later M1-Garand.

It is, and was a unique concept

1. It is not a "magazine", therefore it is a "clip".

2. Each round is individually "stripped" out of the clip, therefore, it is technically a "stripper clip".

Just that this action occurs within the "En Bloc" design of the magazine housing of the rifle.

3. Unlike disposable stripper clips, the Carcano clip is fully reloadable.

4. Therefore, it is a reloadable stripper clip, or reloadable clip, either being correct.

However! As we all know, with time and new inventions, new terminology has been invented to keep up with the new items of design and construction.

Those of us who are old enough to have carried the M1-Garand, recall it's clip being referred to as a "stripper clip".

And, when we got to the M-16, the ammo was issued in disposable "Charger Clips" which were utilized to speed-load the magazine.

The term "Stripper Clip" has come to represent a disposable holder which is used primarily to recharge a magazine and thus avoid having to load rounds into the magazine one at a time.

The correct name for this was once a "Charger Clip".

Some early day weapons which had a "magazine" built into the weapon, could also be loaded with this Charger Clip design.

As example, the machine gun can be found in models which were fed by:

1. Drum fed

2. Fully reloadable magazine fed

3. Reloadable Clip fed

4. Disposable Clip fed

5. Desposable link/belt fed

6. Belt fed

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stripper_clip

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clip

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magazine_%28firearm%29

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steyr_Mannlicher_M1894

This is one of the earliest known "Recharger Clips", for a pistol, in which the rounds were pushed out of the clip down into the weapon in which the actual magazine was down in the handle of the weapon.

One of the early day Italian Machine Guns operated off an identical "straight" disposable stripper clip which was fed from a box of these clips.

Were I to merely show someone one of these machine gun clips, then they would immediately think that it was a "Recharger Clip", when in fact it was fed from a box on the left hand side of the gun and the weapon "stripped" the round.

RIFLES OF THE WORLD

CHARGER: A device for loading a magazine firearm.

Chargers are confusingly known as "clips" (q.v.)in North America, or sometimes as "stripper clips' to avoid problems of communication.

CLIP: A method of loading a magazine with several cartrides held in a special holder. The entire assembly is placed in the magazine.

The term "clip" is widely used in North America to descibe a "charger". It has also gained increasing popularity among European sporting-rifle manufacturers to denota a detachable box magazine.

[Thomas H. Purvis]

Below can be found the internal operating aspects of the Mannlicher rifle, and the clip and clip release.

Also provided is an enlarged view of the clip release.

It should be noted that the clip release rod maintains it's forward pressure against the back side of the clip as a result of the "leaf" type spring which runs from the internal portion of the trigger housing to the back side of the clip release latch.

Also, and specifically noted, the only/single point of contact of the clip release latch is that point where the actual latch head comes in contact with the clip locking protrusion found on the back side of the actual clip.

Even with this:

http://www.surplusrifle.com/shooting/steyr...rangereport.pdf

"The one noticeable difference is the Steyr (Mannlicher) is supposed to eject the clip after the last cartridge has been chambered. My specimen did not consistantly do this. I had to manually eject about every third clip."

Edited June 11, 2006 by Thomas H. Purvis

[Thomas H. Purvis]

For some decent photos of Mannlicher-Carcano rifles, I found an auction site that has a great number and excellent detail:

Auction Pics

and for a variety of Carcanos, try the same seller's website:

Carcano Variety Pack

These photos are more clear than most I've seen on the internet, and just might help folks understand some of the differences in the rifles.

AND...in the first link...pay attention to photo #13 and the detail of the sling swivel.

Certainly worthy of comment.

As regards the 6.5mm ammo and the "RELOADABLE" clips.

Italian 6.5mm X 52mm Ammunition[/b]

From discussions on this board, one could begin to think that the 6-shot Carcano rifle was the only weapon which the Italian Army had.

Not quite so!

The 6.5mm X52mm ammunition was officially adopted with the acceptance of the Model 1891 Carcano, as the official weapon of the Italian military forces.

However, there were considerably more weapons in the Italian inventory than merely a bolt action rifle which held a 6-round clip.

Machine Guns:

Beginning in 1901 and continuing into WWII, the Italian military utilized a variety of machine guns, most of which were chambered for the 6.5mm X 52mm (Carcano) ammunition.

1. Perino Machine Gun: (Often referred to as the "MAXIM") Invented in 1901, and officially adopted in 1906, the 1906 and 1911 models were chambered to fire the standard 6.5mm ammunition.

This weapon operated of a "straight" stripper type clip which held (25) 6.5mm rounds.

2. Colt Model 1914, Browning "Potato Digger": During WWI, the Italian Government purchased these american made weapons in the 6.5mm caliber, which was made specifically for them by Colt.

3. Revelli Machine Gun: (Often referred to as the "FIAT") The model 1914. Adopted in 1924 as the official Machine Gun of Italian forces, this weapon was chambered to fire the standard 6.5mm ammunition.

It operated from a 50 round* reloadable clip, however the "automatic" discharge of the clip frequently created damage to the clip itself, thus rendering it non-reusable.

*It also had a special 100 round anti-aircraft clip. This weapon came with a special "loading tool" constructed of wood, which was utilized to reload the magazines.

http://www.smallarmsreview.com/pdf/Fiat.pdf

4. S.I.A Machine Gun: A modified version of the Revili Machine Gun, the Italian Government orderd these in 6.5mm caliber, but the weapon was not produced in time to see WWI service. However, the weapons were produced and even saw limited service in WWII.

This weapon operated from a top-loading, (similar to the Gatling Gun) reloadable "banana" clip which held 25 rounds.

5. The Brixia Machine Gun: This limited issue weapon was first produced in 1920 and was produced in a water-cooled as well as air-cooled version. It incorporated two unique features which were a controlled rate of fire switch as well as a "box-fed" system in which the ammunition could be fired only from the pre-packaged boxes.

6. Breda Machine Gun: Beginning in 1924, this weapon in the standard 6.5mm ammunition was accepted.

This weapon operated from a side-loading, reloadable clip and went through several variations up until the Model 1930 which was the standard light machine gun of Italian forces during WWII.

7. Scotti Machine Gun: Introduced in 1928, limited production, and was never fully adopted by the Italian military.

8. Sistar Machince Gun: Introduced in 1932 and produced primarly only in prototypes, this weapon, not unlike the Scotti Machine Gun, was never introduced into full service.

Rifles

One hears much about the Carcano, which was of course the standard weapon of issue to infantry type Italian forces. However, the Italians were not so far behind that they did not also have other "assault" type rifles as well.

And although only produced in limited numbers during the WWII period, these weapons also utilized the standard 6.5mm Carcano ammunition.

1. Breda G.P. Rifle: This was a limited production, selective fire (automatic or semi-automatic) weapon which was produced in the 6.5mm caliber. It operated off a bottom fed, reloadable magazine (almost identical to today's M-16 rifle) and carried a 20 round capability.

2. 6.5mm Scotti Brescia Model X Rifle: Manufactured in 1931, this semi-automatic rifle in the 6.5mm caliber was also produced in limited numbers during the war years. It utilized the Mannlichler type clip, and although details are scarce on this weapon, it is believed that it utilized the standard Carcano clip.

Others:

It would be remiss to not also point out that even during WWII, some Italian forces were armed with weapons of "vintage"/virtually antique age.

These included:

1. Numerous Model 1895 as well as Model 1889 Mannlicher rifles (Austrian Weapons) were re-barreled and re-worked to fire the 6.5mm Carcano cartridge.

2. A limited amount of the extremely old Vetterli Vitali rifles were re-barreled and re-worked to accept and fire the 6.5mm Carcano cartridge.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Much of the true "Carcano" ammunition was loaded into the re-loadable 6-round Carcano clip. And, this ammunition was standardly issued in boxes which contained 18-rounds. (3-fully loaded 6-round clips)

The ammo boxes were constructed with two cardboard dividers located in the bottom portion of the box, which effectively divided the bottom of the box into three equi-distant portions.

The loaded 6-round clips were inserted into the boxes with the bullet nose downward and the clip portion at the top of the box, and which the the flap of the box folded over the clips.

In this manner, when extracting the ammunition, the loaded clip could be grasped first, with less risk of separation of the ammunition.

This, is the standard issue Carcano ammo.

However, due to the numerous 6.5mm weapons in the Italian inventory, 6.5mm ammo was boxed and sacked in a great variety of variations, as some machine guns utilized expendable "stripper" clips, while those such as the Breda Model-30 utilized re-loadable magazine clips.

Thus, 6.5mm "Carcano" ammunition can be found in an extremely wide variety of boxes, cartons, crates, sacks, etc.

This is also why the Italians chose to utilize the completely recoverable and completely reloadable Carcano Clip.

No matter what weapon ammunition the individual soldier got his hands on, he could always extract the ammo and reload his 6-round clip.

Throughout the life of the Carcano, multitudes of the clips were recovered and returned to the rear where they were reloaded at the factory with new ammunition and thus replaced back into service.

Those who have considerable experience in collection of ammunition, can attest to the fact that many boxes of Carcano ammunition which were produced for WWII, and had remained un-opened, were found to contain a variety of clips, some of which could be traced back as far as WWI vintage.

In event an individual soldier allowed all of his Carcano clips to be discharged and completely discarded, and should he for some reason only have access to 6.5mm ammunition as provided for any of the numerous other versions of 6.5mm weapons in service in the Italian inventory, then, this highly intelligent soldier had just relegated himself to a single shot weapon, irrelevant as to how much 6.5mm ammunition he may get his hands onto.

The Carcano ammunition, as produced by Western Cartridge Company, was boxed in 20 rounds to the box.

There were absolutely no ammo clips provided with this ammunition.

Therefore, one could be so ignorant of the facts of the Carcano and it's recoverable and reloadable clips to assume that the WCC 6.5mm Carcano ammo was intended to be fired a single shot at a time, or else, one could understand and accept that due to the recoverability and reloadable capacity of the Carcano clip, that whoever this new WCC quality ammunition was made for, also had access to adequate clips as well.

Tom

P.S. Ammunition produced for true covert operations neither contains the "WCC" headstamp on the cartridge base,(as does the WCC 6.5mm ammo) nor does each box of ammunition contain a paper slip which fully identifies the DA Ordnance Specification to which the ammunition was constructed.

http://www.cartridgecollectors.org/ww2usmfrs/index.htm

Western Cartridge Co (WCC)

Located in East Alton, IL this private facility was part of the Olin Corp. Western filled many government contracts for caliber 30, caliber 30 carbine, and caliber 45 ammunition during WW II as well as shotshells and 22 rim fire ammunition. The East Alton plant continued to fill government contracts after WW II and still operates at the present time.

http://www.state.il.us/hpa/Illinois%20History/306Francis.pdf

[Thomas H. Purvis]

Below can be found the internal operating aspects of the Mannlicher rifle, and the clip and clip release.

Also provided is an enlarged view of the clip release.

It should be noted that the clip release rod maintains it's forward pressure against the back side of the clip as a result of the "leaf" type spring which runs from the internal portion of the trigger housing to the back side of the clip release latch.

Also, and specifically noted, the only/single point of contact of the clip release latch is that point where the actual latch head comes in contact with the clip locking protrusion found on the back side of the actual clip.

Even with this:

http://www.surplusrifle.com/shooting/steyr...rangereport.pdf

"The one noticeable difference is the Steyr (Mannlicher) is supposed to eject the clip after the last cartridge has been chambered. My specimen did not consistantly do this. I had to manually eject about every third clip."

P.S. Almost forgot that it is also noteworthy to observe the location of the clip locking protrusion on the actual clip. With the Mannlicher, this protrusion is located at the top 1/5th of the back side of the clip.

Therefore, only approximately 20% of the backside of the clip must actually travel past the clip release latch/locking protrusion in order for the clip to be completely free and eject from the weapon.

*Figure# 3 of the web site demonstrates an excellent photograph of the location of the clip locking protrusion.

Edited June 11, 2006 by Thomas H. Purvis

[Thomas H. Purvis]

Below can be found the internal operating aspects of the Mannlicher rifle, and the clip and clip release.

Also provided is an enlarged view of the clip release.

It should be noted that the clip release rod maintains it's forward pressure against the back side of the clip as a result of the "leaf" type spring which runs from the internal portion of the trigger housing to the back side of the clip release latch.

Also, and specifically noted, the only/single point of contact of the clip release latch is that point where the actual latch head comes in contact with the clip locking protrusion found on the back side of the actual clip.

Even with this:

http://www.surplusrifle.com/shooting/steyr...rangereport.pdf

"The one noticeable difference is the Steyr (Mannlicher) is supposed to eject the clip after the last cartridge has been chambered. My specimen did not consistantly do this. I had to manually eject about every third clip."

P.S. Almost forgot that it is also noteworthy to observe the location of the clip locking protrusion on the actual clip. With the Mannlicher, this protrusion is located at the top 1/5th of the back side of the clip.

Therefore, only approximately 20% of the backside of the clip must actually travel past the clip release latch/locking protrusion in order for the clip to be completely free and eject from the weapon.

*Figure# 3 of the web site demonstrates an excellent photograph of the location of the clip locking protrusion.

http://www.gunboards.com/sites/mrj2003/Ita...#Top_2RareClips

The middle/center clip at the bottom of the page is the standard Carcano Clip.

When it is fully examined as to how the clip release operates in relationship to the back side of the actual clip, then it is fully understood as to the "why"? that these clips do not, as a regular event, simply fall out of the weapon.

[Thomas H. Purvis]

Below can be found the internal operating aspects of the Mannlicher rifle, and the clip and clip release.

Also provided is an enlarged view of the clip release.

It should be noted that the clip release rod maintains it's forward pressure against the back side of the clip as a result of the "leaf" type spring which runs from the internal portion of the trigger housing to the back side of the clip release latch.

Also, and specifically noted, the only/single point of contact of the clip release latch is that point where the actual latch head comes in contact with the clip locking protrusion found on the back side of the actual clip.

Even with this:

http://www.surplusrifle.com/shooting/steyr...rangereport.pdf

"The one noticeable difference is the Steyr (Mannlicher) is supposed to eject the clip after the last cartridge has been chambered. My specimen did not consistantly do this. I had to manually eject about every third clip."

P.S. Almost forgot that it is also noteworthy to observe the location of the clip locking protrusion on the actual clip. With the Mannlicher, this protrusion is located at the top 1/5th of the back side of the clip.

Therefore, only approximately 20% of the backside of the clip must actually travel past the clip release latch/locking protrusion in order for the clip to be completely free and eject from the weapon.

*Figure# 3 of the web site demonstrates an excellent photograph of the location of the clip locking protrusion.

http://www.gunboards.com/sites/mrj2003/Ita...#Top_2RareClips

The middle/center clip at the bottom of the page is the standard Carcano Clip.

When it is fully examined as to how the clip release operates in relationship to the back side of the actual clip, then it is fully understood as to the "why"? that these clips do not, as a regular event, simply fall out of the weapon.

http://www.jfklancer.com/photos/Rifle_Bullets/index.html

Might I recommend that one take a close look at the backside of the Carcano clip.

Then, when comparing this with the clip release latch on the weapon, it is completely understandable as to the "why" the Carcano clip seldom falls out of the weapon upon chambering of the last round.

The rear of the clip is "grooved", however each end tapers to being almost flat.

This groove on the backside of the clip assures correct alignment with the clip release latch as the loaded clip is pushed down into the magazine of the weapon.

And, a portion of the clip release rides in this groove, with constant pressure from the spring applying pressure against the backside of the clip.

When the final round is chambered and there is no upward pressure from the loading spring, the clip nevertheless continues to maintain pressure against it's backside by that portion of the clip release which rides in the grooved channel of the clip.

And, even if the clip does drop somewhat, it frequently "catches" as the groove in the clip progressively tapers to an almost flat area at the outer edge of the clip.

As has been demonstrated, the original Manlicher clip had a completely flat backside, yet even it reportedly hung/caught in the weapon and was not ejected as originally designed.

With the Carcano designed clip release, a portion of the release continously rode/applied pressure in the grooved channel of the backside of the clip, and even then, had to pass over a last area of the clip in which the spacing between the clip and clip release had decreased due to a progressive decrease in the depth of the channel in which the clip release guide rested.

This is the WHY? that the Carcano Clip does not always drop from the weapon, as well as the WHY? that the clip may drop, yet "catch" and not fully eject from the bottom of the magazine.

Since Mr. Carcano is long deceased, it is unlikely that we will ever know the full extent of the intention of his design with the clip and clip release mechanism.