Of Paine's, Pentz's' Jack Bowen and Hypnosis

[Robert Howard]

It may come as a surprise to some Forum members to learn that Nash Rambler's were 'used' in other places besides Dealey Plaza. This article, entitled 'The Odd Couple at Carswell' posted courtesy of maryferrell.org appeared in the July 2004 issue of the Dealey Plaza Echo [Volume 8 #2.] The reader will have to decide for his or her self whether the Pentz's were indeed the same individuals that were 'friends' of the Oswald family.

The Odd

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...54&relPageId=12

[Antti Hynonen]

The gentleman who wrote the article should contact Ruth Paine in Florida, since he is certain that Ruth was Mrs. Pentz in 1961. Confronting her and getting supporting opinions from his air force buddies that Ruth Paine in fact was Mrs. Pentz at Carswell might produce some additional information or reactions. If this turns out to be accurate, Marguerite Oswald's (was it Marguerite or Robert) opinion that the Paine's were "somehow involved", is accurate.

The article also brings to mind hypnosis as a means to activate Jack Ruby for Oswald's murder. Ruby promptly took action immediately following the honking of a horn.

Edited June 7, 2006 by Antti Hynonen

[Greg Parker]

It may come as a surprise to some Forum members to learn that Nash Rambler's were 'used' in other places besides Dealey Plaza. This article, entitled 'The Odd Couple at Carswell' posted courtesy of maryferrell.org appeared in the July 2004 issue of the Dealey Plaza Echo [Volume 8 #2.] The reader will have to decide for his or her self whether the Pentz's were indeed the same individuals that were 'friends' of the Oswald family.

The Odd

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...54&relPageId=12

Robert, a couple of basic flaws in the story just from a quick scan. Bill DeMar was not from Dallas, and neither the WC nor the FBI tried to sell Oswald as the owner of the Minox -- quite the reverse.

There are also several changes in this version, to the version given to Richard Bartholomew in the early '90s (a couple of examples from many... in the article, his wife remembered "Ruth" as being "Linda". To Bartholomew, he said his wife remembered her name as "Kate"; in the article, he states all "Penz" ever wanted to discuss was his lack of ability to please his wife in bed... to Bartholomew, he said he brought this up on one single occasion... )

I'd suggest if you find the story interesting enough, that contacting Bartholomew to find out if he investigated the claims might be worthwhile.

To be totally honest... from what I read, my first reaction: "what a load of BS!"... I couldn't even give the benefit of the doubt that it's just an honest case of mistaken identity, because it would entail MULTIPLE cases of mistaken ID.

But then, I've been wrong before...

[Mark Knight]

For the sake of accuracy, this "Nash Rambler" thing is bugging me. As of May 1, 1954, Nash-Kelvinator Corp. and the Hudson Motor Car Co. merged and became American Motors Corp.[AMC]. For the 1955 and 1956 model years, Ramblers were sold with both Hudson and Nash insignias, but after the 1956 models, there were NO "Nash Ramblers," as Rambler was marketed by AMC as a separate brand. After the 1957 model year, BOTH the Hudson and Nash names were retired by AMC, and the products were strictly "Rambler". So any identification of a post-1956 Rambler as a "Nash Rambler" is in error. Folks persisted in referring to "Nash Ramblers," but after 1956, there simply was no such car produced.

And, FWIW, the Rambler name that Nash revived in 1950 was retired by AMC after the 1969 model year.

[Robert Howard]

For the sake of accuracy, this "Nash Rambler" thing is bugging me. As of May 1, 1954, Nash-Kelvinator Corp. and the Hudson Motor Car Co. merged and became American Motors Corp.[AMC]. For the 1955 and 1956 model years, Ramblers were sold with both Hudson and Nash insignias, but after the 1956 models, there were NO "Nash Ramblers," as Rambler was marketed by AMC as a separate brand. After the 1957 model year, BOTH the Hudson and Nash names were retired by AMC, and the products were strictly "Rambler". So any identification of a post-1956 Rambler as a "Nash Rambler" is in error. Folks persisted in referring to "Nash Ramblers," but after 1956, there simply was no such car produced.

And, FWIW, the Rambler name that Nash revived in 1950 was retired by AMC after the 1969 model year.

To Antti, Greg and Mark: My purpose in posting this article was primarily in feeling out the story, as it is new to me (sadly, whether credible or not) and I was only aware of it due to the fact that it was only recently that maryferrel.org added the Dealey Plaza Echo, to it's website.

Mark, I posted this article link without a great deal of time at my disposal, and erred in using 'Nash and Rambler' in the same sentence.

The reference was to the following: "...as a side note on Ramblers, in some of my work on Cuban gun running both to Castro and post-revolution I turned up an interesting comment that little Ramber station wagons were a vehicle of choice in carting moderate loads of weapons from sources in the U.S. to points where they could be taken by small boats into Cuba. Safer than putting them all in one big shipment.

Perhaps we shouldn't be surprised to see several in the DP area."

I believe the above was posted by Larry Hancock, on a recent thread, and I apologize for not being certain.

Greg, as for your insight's, I heartily agree to why you have reservations about the story, it is one of the pitfalls of individuals coming forward after a delay. For what it's worth, I believe the contributions on the Forum from the land 'down under' are truly laudatory. I have an immense amount of respect for the Australian JFK researchers.

To get back to the thread, I have similar feelings about the story that Greg, does. While Antti brings up a good point in desiring the author to contact the Paines, I will have to keep digging, but I do intend to resolve whether this story is valid or some type of disinformation.

Is anyone familiar with Mike Sylvester's article 'The Name John Bowen in the Kennedy Assassination?

Here is a Link to the story.

http://www.bvalphaserver.com/convert.php?f...rren/bowen.html

[Larry Hancock]

Robert, yes the copy about the little station wagons was from me. In answer to

your question, I do recall the Bowen article (simply because not long after I started in

this I bought back issues of most of the publications and then subscribed to what

was still being published). The problem with that is that there were so many articles

written based on partial information that it can lead you in circles forever, much of what

was mysterious at the time isn't now and many leads that were fascinating then are less so

now. An example is:

"The third such person was Fred Lee Crisman, Jr. In 1969, New Orleans Attorney General Jim Garrison received a couple of anonymous letters implicating Crisman in the Kennedy assassination. One of the letters said that one of Crisman's co-conspirators in stealing money from the CIA was a person named Martin Grassi."

....having spent a couple of years in company with Glen Cresey investigating Crisman I can

give you a pretty good opinion that he was such a "mis" lead (including an interview with

his school principal who placed him in class on Nov. 22 and had the records to prove it...a man

who really didn't like Crisman at all and would have been happy to dump on him).

"Subsequently, a Southwest Texas lawyer using the pseudonym William Torbitt released a manuscript called Nomenclature of an Assassination Cabal, which provides further information about Crisman and Osborne/Bowen. According to Torbitt, local US customs officials he knew had discovered from their own sources in the early 1950s that Bowen's Mexican orphanage was really a training school for contract killers, who were occasionally employed by FBI Chief, J. Edgar Hoover. Torbitt also discovered that Crisman worked with Osborne/Bowen and sometimes even used the alias John Bowen. (unpublished, undated manuscript, available at the Assassinations Archive in Washington DC, ch 6)"

...the same goes with using the Torbett document as an authoritative source, its such a wonderful

mis of mis and disinformation, extremely well done by whever was feeding the info. If we really

understood that it would teach us a great more about the nature the cover-up than what is in

the document itself. But I still have the notebooks with all the notes, diagrams and things to do

I made when wading through it....some things just stay with us forever.

.....at least those are my thoughts... Larry

For the sake of accuracy, this "Nash Rambler" thing is bugging me. As of May 1, 1954, Nash-Kelvinator Corp. and the Hudson Motor Car Co. merged and became American Motors Corp.[AMC]. For the 1955 and 1956 model years, Ramblers were sold with both Hudson and Nash insignias, but after the 1956 models, there were NO "Nash Ramblers," as Rambler was marketed by AMC as a separate brand. After the 1957 model year, BOTH the Hudson and Nash names were retired by AMC, and the products were strictly "Rambler". So any identification of a post-1956 Rambler as a "Nash Rambler" is in error. Folks persisted in referring to "Nash Ramblers," but after 1956, there simply was no such car produced.

And, FWIW, the Rambler name that Nash revived in 1950 was retired by AMC after the 1969 model year.

To Antti, Greg and Mark: My purpose in posting this article was primarily in feeling out the story, as it is new to me (sadly, whether credible or not) and I was only aware of it due to the fact that it was only recently that maryferrel.org added the Dealey Plaza Echo, to it's website.

Mark, I posted this article link without a great deal of time at my disposal, and erred in using 'Nash and Rambler' in the same sentence.

The reference was to the following: "...as a side note on Ramblers, in some of my work on Cuban gun running both to Castro and post-revolution I turned up an interesting comment that little Ramber station wagons were a vehicle of choice in carting moderate loads of weapons from sources in the U.S. to points where they could be taken by small boats into Cuba. Safer than putting them all in one big shipment.

Perhaps we shouldn't be surprised to see several in the DP area."

I believe the above was posted by Larry Hancock, on a recent thread, and I apologize for not being certain.

Greg, as for your insight's, I heartily agree to why you have reservations about the story, it is one of the pitfalls of individuals coming forward after a delay. For what it's worth, I believe the contributions on the Forum from the land 'down under' are truly laudatory. I have an immense amount of respect for the Australian JFK researchers.

To get back to the thread, I have similar feelings about the story that Greg, does. While Antti brings up a good point in desiring the author to contact the Paines, I will have to keep digging, but I do intend to resolve whether this story is valid or some type of disinformation.

Is anyone familiar with Mike Sylvester's article 'The Name John Bowen in the Kennedy Assassination?

Here is a Link to the story.

http://www.bvalphaserver.com/convert.php?f...rren/bowen.html

[Robert Howard]

Robert, yes the copy about the little station wagons was from me. In answer to

your question, I do recall the Bowen article (simply because not long after I started in

this I bought back issues of most of the publications and then subscribed to what

was still being published). The problem with that is that there were so many articles

written based on partial information that it can lead you in circles forever, much of what

was mysterious at the time isn't now and many leads that were fascinating then are less so

now. An example is:

"The third such person was Fred Lee Crisman, Jr. In 1969, New Orleans Attorney General Jim Garrison received a couple of anonymous letters implicating Crisman in the Kennedy assassination. One of the letters said that one of Crisman's co-conspirators in stealing money from the CIA was a person named Martin Grassi."

....having spent a couple of years in company with Glen Cresey investigating Crisman I can

give you a pretty good opinion that he was such a "mis" lead (including an interview with

his school principal who placed him in class on Nov. 22 and had the records to prove it...a man

who really didn't like Crisman at all and would have been happy to dump on him).

"Subsequently, a Southwest Texas lawyer using the pseudonym William Torbitt released a manuscript called Nomenclature of an Assassination Cabal, which provides further information about Crisman and Osborne/Bowen. According to Torbitt, local US customs officials he knew had discovered from their own sources in the early 1950s that Bowen's Mexican orphanage was really a training school for contract killers, who were occasionally employed by FBI Chief, J. Edgar Hoover. Torbitt also discovered that Crisman worked with Osborne/Bowen and sometimes even used the alias John Bowen. (unpublished, undated manuscript, available at the Assassinations Archive in Washington DC, ch 6)"

...the same goes with using the Torbett document as an authoritative source, its such a wonderful

mis of mis and disinformation, extremely well done by whever was feeding the info. If we really

understood that it would teach us a great more about the nature the cover-up than what is in

the document itself. But I still have the notebooks with all the notes, diagrams and things to do

I made when wading through it....some things just stay with us forever.

.....at least those are my thoughts... Larry

For the sake of accuracy, this "Nash Rambler" thing is bugging me. As of May 1, 1954, Nash-Kelvinator Corp. and the Hudson Motor Car Co. merged and became American Motors Corp.[AMC]. For the 1955 and 1956 model years, Ramblers were sold with both Hudson and Nash insignias, but after the 1956 models, there were NO "Nash Ramblers," as Rambler was marketed by AMC as a separate brand. After the 1957 model year, BOTH the Hudson and Nash names were retired by AMC, and the products were strictly "Rambler". So any identification of a post-1956 Rambler as a "Nash Rambler" is in error. Folks persisted in referring to "Nash Ramblers," but after 1956, there simply was no such car produced.

And, FWIW, the Rambler name that Nash revived in 1950 was retired by AMC after the 1969 model year.

To Antti, Greg and Mark: My purpose in posting this article was primarily in feeling out the story, as it is new to me (sadly, whether credible or not) and I was only aware of it due to the fact that it was only recently that maryferrel.org added the Dealey Plaza Echo, to it's website.

Mark, I posted this article link without a great deal of time at my disposal, and erred in using 'Nash and Rambler' in the same sentence.

The reference was to the following: "...as a side note on Ramblers, in some of my work on Cuban gun running both to Castro and post-revolution I turned up an interesting comment that little Ramber station wagons were a vehicle of choice in carting moderate loads of weapons from sources in the U.S. to points where they could be taken by small boats into Cuba. Safer than putting them all in one big shipment.

Perhaps we shouldn't be surprised to see several in the DP area."

I believe the above was posted by Larry Hancock, on a recent thread, and I apologize for not being certain.

Greg, as for your insight's, I heartily agree to why you have reservations about the story, it is one of the pitfalls of individuals coming forward after a delay. For what it's worth, I believe the contributions on the Forum from the land 'down under' are truly laudatory. I have an immense amount of respect for the Australian JFK researchers.

To get back to the thread, I have similar feelings about the story that Greg, does. While Antti brings up a good point in desiring the author to contact the Paines, I will have to keep digging, but I do intend to resolve whether this story is valid or some type of disinformation.

Is anyone familiar with Mike Sylvester's article 'The Name John Bowen in the Kennedy Assassination?

Here is a Link to the story.

http://www.bvalphaserver.com/convert.php?f...rren/bowen.html

I really appreciate your comments, I can certainly understand everyone's skepticism about 'sources.'

I see, as well as most Forum members, I am sure do as well, that investigating the leads after er, a great deal of time elapses is a great deal more problematic than if it had been month's. It reminds me of an old quote associated with the Door's and Jim Morrison everybody knows this is nowhere.