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Power outage in the TSBD?


Guest Mark Valenti
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Anyone know why it happened on 11-22-63 and how long it lasted?

Mark,

There was no power outage. When TSBD employee Geneva Hine testified that "the lights all went out," she was talking about the extension lights on her telephone.

Mr. BALL. Was there a switchboard?

Miss HINE. No, sir; we have a telephone with three incoming lines, then we have the warehouse line and we have an intercom system.

Mr. BALL. You don't have a switchboard?

Miss HINE. Not now; we did in the other building.

Mr. BALL. Were you alone then at this time?

Miss HINE. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Did you stay at your desk?

Miss HINE. Yes, sir: I was alone until the lights all went out and the phones became dead because the motorcade was coming near us and no one was calling so I got up and thought I could see it from the east window in our office.

Ron

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I thought I remembered something in the testimony about an elevator that wouldn't work also - maybe it was one of those mechanical problems and not electirical, though.
...or someone leaving the door open [likely on purpose] to make it unavailable to others and available when needed to 'them'...

It is in the testimony of Luke Mooney and a female TSBD worker; sorry, don't have the references at hand. Mooney had ridden one of the elevators to the second floor where someone wanted to get off and two women wanted to get on. When they closed the doors to start up again, the elevator did not operate, so they all got off and continued upward on foot. "Her" testimony pretty well corroborates his.

As to the cause - or possible causes - of the malfunction ...? A part of the continuing inquiry!

A great big "quite so!" to Ron about the phone lights!

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Anyone know why it happened on 11-22-63 and how long it lasted?

I have never heard this before this post. Could you be confusing this with the

phone lines in DC that day? (Either by design or mere overuse the phones were down

several hours).

Dawn

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Warren Commission Hearings: Vol. III - Page 283-284

Mr. Mooney.

Yes, sir; they were plainclothes officers like myself, work in the same department, and we run right over to the building then, which we were only 150, 200 feet back--I assume it is that distance I haven't measured it. It didn't take us but a few seconds to get there. When we hit the rear part, these big iron gates, they have cyclone fencing on them--this used to be an old grocery store warehouse--Sachs & Co., I believe is correct. And I says let's get these doors closed to block off this rear entrance.

Mr. Ball.

Were the doors open?

Mr. Mooney.

They were wide open, the big gates. So I grabbed one, and we swung them to, and there was a citizen there, and I put him on orders to keep them shut, because I don't recall whether there was a lock on them or not. Didn't want to lock them because you never know what might happen.

So he stood guard, I assume, until a uniformed officer took over.

We shut the back door--there was a back door on a little dock. And then we went in through the docks, through the rear entrance.

Officer Vickery and Webster said, "We will take the staircase there in the corner.

I said, "I will go up the freight elevator." I noticed there was a big elevator there. So I jumped on it. And about that time two women come running and said, "we want to go to the second floor."

I said, "All right, get on, we are going........"

Mr. Ball.

You took the west one, or the east one?

Mr. Mooney.

I would say it was the west elevator, the one nearest to the staircase.

Mr. Ball.

Did it work with a push button?

Mr. Mooney.

It was a push button affair the best I can remember. got hold of the controls and it worked. We started up and got to the second. I was going to let them off and go on up. And when we got there, the power undoubtedly cut off, because we had no more power on the elevator. So I looked around their office there, just a short second or two, and then I went up the staircase myself. And I met some other officers coming down, plainclothes, and I believe they were deputy sheriffs. They were coming down the staircase. But I kept going up. And how come I get off the sixth floor, I don't know yet. But, anyway, I stopped on six, and didn't even know what floor I was on.

Mr. Ball.

You were alone?

Mr. Mooney.

I was alone at that time.

Mr. Ball.

Was there any reason for you to go to the sixth floor?

Mr. Mooney.

No, sir. That is what I say. I don't know why. I just stopped on that particular floor. I thought I was pretty close to the top.

Mr. Ball.

Were there any other officers on the floor?

Mr. Mooney.

I didn't see any at that time.

Mooney, of course, had important involvements finding "evidence" on the sixth floor.

A couple of other snippets from Mooney's testimony:

Mr. Ball.

What happened, as you remember?

Mr. Mooney.

After that few seconds elapsed, we heard this shot ring out. At that time, I didn't realize it was a shot. The wind was blowing pretty high, and, of course, it echoed. I turned my head this way.

Mr. Ball.

You mean to the right?

Mr. Mooney.

To the right; yes, sir. We were facing more or less south. And I turned my head to the right.

Mr. Ball.

That would be looking towards Houston Street?

Mr. Mooney.

Looking towards the old court.

Well, when I turned my head to the right; yes, sir. I would be looking west. And there was a short lapse between these shots. I can still hear them very distinctly--between the first and second shot. The second and third shot was pretty close together, but there was a short lapse there between the first and second shot. Why, I don't know. But when that begin to take place after the first shot we started moving out. And by the time I started running--all of us except Officer Ingrain he had a heart attack, and, of course, he wasn't qualified to do any running......

Mr. Ball.

Why did you go over to the railroad yard?

Mr. Mooney.

Well, that was--from the echo of the shots, we thought they came from that direction.

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Duke,

It is in the testimony of Luke Mooney and a female TSBD worker; sorry, don't have the references at hand. Mooney had ridden one of the elevators to the second floor where someone wanted to get off and two women wanted to get on. When they closed the doors to start up again, the elevator did not operate, so they all got off and continued upward on foot. "Her" testimony pretty well corroborates his.

I was going to quote Luke Mooney's testimony, but I see that Michael already has.

I believe the female TSBD worker is Victoria Adams.

Victoria Adams was on the fourth floor, heard three shots, ran down the stairs in the northwest corner of the building, encountered Billy Lovelady and Shelley, ran out the Houston St. dock, ran to the railroad tracks and was ordered back in the building by a policeman. She went southwest around the corner of the building, went down the Elm St. extension and talked to a coworker on the steps in front of the TDBD. She asked permission of a policeman to enter the building because she worked there.

Mr. BELIN - Then what did you do ?

Miss ADAMS - Following that, I pushed the button for the passenger elevator, but the power had been cut off on the elevator, so I took the stairs to the second floor.

Mr. BELIN - You then went all the way back to the northwest corner of the building and took the same set of stairs you had previously taken to come down, or did you take the stairs by the passenger elevator?

Miss ADAMS - By the passenger elevator.

Mr. BELIN - Do those stairs go above floor 2?

Miss ADAMS - No, sir; they didn't.

Mr. BELIN - What did you do when you got to the second floor?

Miss ADAMS - I went into the Texas School Book Depository office and just listened for a few minutes to the people that were congregating there, and decided there wasn't anything interesting going on, and went out and walked around the hall to the freight elevator meaning the one on the northwest corner.

Mr. BELIN - Would it have been the west or the east? The one nearest the stairs or the other one?

Miss ADAMS - Yes; the one nearest the stairs.

Mr. BELIN - Then what did you do?

Miss ADAMS - I went into the elevator which was stopped on the second floor, with two men who were dressed in suit and hats, and I assumed they were plainclothesmen.

Mr. BELIN - What did you do then?

Miss ADAMS - I tried to get the elevator to go to the fourth floor, but it wasn't operating, so the gentlemen lifted the elevator gate and we went out and ran up the stairs to the fourth floor.

http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/adams_v.htm

Now, Marion Baker and Roy Truly had taken that east passenger elevator to the seventh floor, and after checking out the roof, rode the same elevator back down.

Mr. BELIN - When--did you take an elevator down or did you take the stairs down?

Mr. BAKER - We took the elevator down.

Mr. BELIN - Did you take the same elevator down you took up or did you take a different elevator down?

Mr. BAKER - We took the same one.

So, sometime after Marion Baker had returned from the roof, and before Victoria Adams got there, the power went out to the east elevator.

Luke Mooney went in the back of the TSBD and jumped on the west elevator:

Mr. Ball.

You took the west one, or the east one?

Mr. Mooney.

I would say it was the west elevator, the one nearest to the staircase.

Mr. Ball.

Did it work with a push button?

Mr. Mooney.

It was a push button affair the best I can remember. got hold of the controls and it worked. We started up and got to the second. I was going to let them off and go on up. And when we got there, the power undoubtedly cut off, because we had no more power on the elevator.

So, sometime in that narrow time frame power goes out to "both" elevators.

Steve Thomas

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Duke,

It is in the testimony of Luke Mooney and a female TSBD worker; sorry, don't have the references at hand. Mooney had ridden one of the elevators to the second floor where someone wanted to get off and two women wanted to get on. When they closed the doors to start up again, the elevator did not operate, so they all got off and continued upward on foot. "Her" testimony pretty well corroborates his.

I was going to quote Luke Mooney's testimony, but I see that Michael already has.

I believe the female TSBD worker is Victoria Adams.

Victoria Adams was on the fourth floor, heard three shots, ran down the stairs in the northwest corner of the building, encountered Billy Lovelady and Shelley, ran out the Houston St. dock, ran to the railroad tracks and was ordered back in the building by a policeman. She went southwest around the corner of the building, went down the Elm St. extension and talked to a coworker on the steps in front of the TDBD. She asked permission of a policeman to enter the building because she worked there.

Mr. BELIN - Then what did you do ?

Miss ADAMS - Following that, I pushed the button for the passenger elevator, but the power had been cut off on the elevator, so I took the stairs to the second floor.

Mr. BELIN - You then went all the way back to the northwest corner of the building and took the same set of stairs you had previously taken to come down, or did you take the stairs by the passenger elevator?

Miss ADAMS - By the passenger elevator.

Mr. BELIN - Do those stairs go above floor 2?

Miss ADAMS - No, sir; they didn't.

Mr. BELIN - What did you do when you got to the second floor?

Miss ADAMS - I went into the Texas School Book Depository office and just listened for a few minutes to the people that were congregating there, and decided there wasn't anything interesting going on, and went out and walked around the hall to the freight elevator meaning the one on the northwest corner.

Mr. BELIN - Would it have been the west or the east? The one nearest the stairs or the other one?

Miss ADAMS - Yes; the one nearest the stairs.

Mr. BELIN - Then what did you do?

Miss ADAMS - I went into the elevator which was stopped on the second floor, with two men who were dressed in suit and hats, and I assumed they were plainclothesmen.

Mr. BELIN - What did you do then?

Miss ADAMS - I tried to get the elevator to go to the fourth floor, but it wasn't operating, so the gentlemen lifted the elevator gate and we went out and ran up the stairs to the fourth floor.

http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/adams_v.htm

Now, Marion Baker and Roy Truly had taken that east passenger elevator to the seventh floor, and after checking out the roof, rode the same elevator back down.

Mr. BELIN - When--did you take an elevator down or did you take the stairs down?

Mr. BAKER - We took the elevator down.

Mr. BELIN - Did you take the same elevator down you took up or did you take a different elevator down?

Mr. BAKER - We took the same one.

So, sometime after Marion Baker had returned from the roof, and before Victoria Adams got there, the power went out to the east elevator.

Luke Mooney went in the back of the TSBD and jumped on the west elevator:

Mr. Ball.

You took the west one, or the east one?

Mr. Mooney.

I would say it was the west elevator, the one nearest to the staircase.

Mr. Ball.

Did it work with a push button?

Mr. Mooney.

It was a push button affair the best I can remember. got hold of the controls and it worked. We started up and got to the second. I was going to let them off and go on up. And when we got there, the power undoubtedly cut off, because we had no more power on the elevator.

So, sometime in that narrow time frame power goes out to "both" elevators.

Steve Thomas

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Duke,
It is in the testimony of Luke Mooney and a female TSBD worker; sorry, don't have the references at hand. Mooney had ridden one of the elevators to the second floor where someone wanted to get off and two women wanted to get on. When they closed the doors to start up again, the elevator did not operate, so they all got off and continued upward on foot. "Her" testimony pretty well corroborates his.
I was going to quote Luke Mooney's testimony, but I see that Michael already has.

I believe the female TSBD worker is Victoria Adams.

Victoria Adams was on the fourth floor, heard three shots, ran down the stairs in the northwest corner of the building, encountered Billy Lovelady and Shelley, ran out the Houston St. dock, ran to the railroad tracks and was ordered back in the building by a policeman. She went southwest around the corner of the building, went down the Elm St. extension and talked to a coworker on the steps in front of the TDBD. She asked permission of a policeman to enter the building because she worked there.

Mr. BELIN - Then what did you do ?

Miss ADAMS - Following that, I pushed the button for the passenger elevator, but the power had been cut off on the elevator, so I took the stairs to the second floor.

Mr. BELIN - You then went all the way back to the northwest corner of the building and took the same set of stairs you had previously taken to come down, or did you take the stairs by the passenger elevator?

Miss ADAMS - By the passenger elevator.

Mr. BELIN - Do those stairs go above floor 2?

Miss ADAMS - No, sir; they didn't.

Thank you for that; it most certainly was Vicky Adams.

There is elsewhere testimony from a police officer - I'm thinking Inspector Sawyer, but could be mistaken - that he and a couple of other officers went in the front door and took the elevator by the front door up to the second floor, and thereafter went to the northwest corner where there was a "storage room," and then went back downstairs.

It's difficult if not impossible to determine where in all of the time that VA was running around the building and talking with people that Sawyer (or whomever) entered the building since neither refers to the other in any way. If, however, they had gone upstairs and were holding the elevator there (as I seem to recall they had), it could or would appear to someone trying to call that elevator that "the power was off" since the elevator did not start moving when she'd hit the button.

The only thing that argues against that possibility is that VA did not mention anyone by the elevator when she'd gotten to the second floor. However, I'm not certain that someone who went up the stairs and then along the south corridor (running east-west across the front of the building behind offices and in front of the "secretarial pool" area) would have passed the elevator to have seen anyone there. I'm thinking that they wouldn't have, but a look at the 2nd floor layout (a Commission Exhibit) would eliminate all doubt of that. The other possibility - vague though it may be - is that by the time VA got to the elevator area, the cops had gone back downstairs.

In any case, thanks for including this part of her testimony because, if she was trying to use the elevator when the cops had it, it could help in determining when Luke Mooney was in the elevator, since it's pretty clear from the next part of her testimony that she was one of the women Mooney had let into the elevator on the second floor, which is a decidedly important question. He'd estimated that he'd been in the parking area checking around cars there "a couple of minutes" before going into the building; perhaps Micheal can post that part of Mooney's testimony?

(continued)

Mr. BELIN - What did you do when you got to the second floor?

Miss ADAMS - I went into the Texas School Book Depository office and just listened for a few minutes to the people that were congregating there, and decided there wasn't anything interesting going on, and went out and walked around the hall to the freight elevator meaning the one on the northwest corner.

Mr. BELIN - Would it have been the west or the east? The one nearest the stairs or the other one?

Miss ADAMS - Yes; the one nearest the stairs.

Mr. BELIN - Then what did you do?

Miss ADAMS - I went into the elevator which was stopped on the second floor, with two men who were dressed in suit and hats, and I assumed they were plainclothesmen.

Mr. BELIN - What did you do then?

Miss ADAMS - I tried to get the elevator to go to the fourth floor, but it wasn't operating, so the gentlemen lifted the elevator gate and we went out and ran up the stairs to the fourth floor.

http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/adams_v.htm

(continued)

Now, Marion Baker and Roy Truly had taken that east passenger elevator to the seventh floor, and after checking out the roof, rode the same elevator back down.

Mr. BELIN - When--did you take an elevator down or did you take the stairs down?

Mr. BAKER - We took the elevator down.

Mr. BELIN - Did you take the same elevator down you took up or did you take a different elevator down?

Mr. BAKER - We took the same one.

So, sometime after Marion Baker had returned from the roof, and before Victoria Adams got there, the power went out to the east elevator.

Luke Mooney went in the back of the TSBD and jumped on the west elevator:

Mr. Ball. You took the west one, or the east one?

Mr. Mooney. I would say it was the west elevator, the one nearest to the staircase.

Mr. Ball. Did it work with a push button?

Mr. Mooney. It was a push button affair the best I can remember. got hold of the controls and it worked. We started up and got to the second. I was going to let them off and go on up. And when we got there, the power undoubtedly cut off, because we had no more power on the elevator.

So, sometime in that narrow time frame power goes out to "both" elevators.

Steve Thomas

One of the questions I've got for someone who worked at TSBD during that era include how the elevators could have been kept from moving. We know that if someone rode the elevator - at least the freight elevator - and didn't close the doors, then the elevator could not be called to another floor for someone else. Was it also possible to have opened another door on a floor where the elevator was NOT and keep it from moving, that is, a contact being broken and stopping the elevator from travelling? A "power outage" could have seemed to have occurred if this was the case.

Since you mentioned Baker & Truly, you must remember, too, that at first, Truly tried to get an elevator while he and Baker were on the first floor, but neither elevator responded. He looked up and saw the bottoms of both elevators at the fifth floor, where Jack Dougherty was working (and not seeing or hearing anybody at all, not even the three black guys running across the same floor!).

When B&T got to the fifth floor, they found and got onto the passenger elevator there; the freight elevator was not there, but had apparently gone down to another floor (Truly didn't state where it had gone to or if he had even looked), an action that he attributed to Dougherty. Truly said that the commotion he and Baker were making running up the stairs was such that they (or he) didn't hear it moving. I don't recall that he had said whether or not he saw it anywhere either on the way down or when he got to the first floor again.

Also, Luke Mooney had indicated that he did not see anyone on the sixth floor when he got there, and had in fact walked or ran back and forth across the floor before going up to the seventh floor, and then again down to the sixth. If memory serves, Mooney is attributed as being the first law enforcement officer to have arrived on the sixth floor other than Baker, who never actually was on the sixth floor (got on the elevator at the fifth, rode it with Truly to the seventh, and then back down to the first).

If that is so (someone please correct me if I'm wrong), then here's another important question: who was Mooney referring to when he said "And I met some other officers coming down, plainclothes, and I believe they were deputy sheriffs. They were coming down the staircase. But I kept going up"???

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Duke,

There is elsewhere testimony from a police officer - I'm thinking Inspector Sawyer, but could be mistaken - that he and a couple of other officers went in the front door and took the elevator by the front door up to the second floor, and thereafter went to the northwest corner where there was a "storage room," and then went back downstairs.

One of the questions I've got for someone who worked at TSBD during that era include how the elevators could have been kept from moving. We know that if someone rode the elevator - at least the freight elevator - and didn't close the doors, then the elevator could not be called to another floor for someone else. Was it also possible to have opened another door on a floor where the elevator was NOT and keep it from moving, that is, a contact being broken and stopping the elevator from travelling? A "power outage" could have seemed to have occurred if this was the case.

When B&T got to the fifth floor, they found and got onto the passenger elevator there; the freight elevator was not there, but had apparently gone down to another floor (Truly didn't state where it had gone to or if he had even looked), an action that he attributed to Dougherty.

If that is so (someone please correct me if I'm wrong), then here's another important question: who was Mooney referring to when he said "And I met some other officers coming down, plainclothes, and I believe they were deputy sheriffs. They were coming down the staircase. But I kept going up"???

Over the last couple of days, I've been mulling over this west elevator business, trying to correlate the statements of everyone concerned - Adams and Baker and Truly and Bonnie Williams and Hank Norman, etc.

Truly said that when he first tried to call the freight elevator, it wouldn't respond. Baker said that he looked up the shaft and saw the bottom of the elevator, "three or floors up". But when they got to the fifth floor, the elevator wasn't there. Like you said, he attibuted that to Jack Dougherty, but that was only a guess.

I've been wondering who took that elevator, because after hearing the shots and running to the west window, Wliiiams and Jarman and Norman had to run down the stairs because the elevator they rode up to the fifth floor on, that west freight elevator was gone. Norman said that he closed the gates "to make it available to anyone who wanted it."

Who took that elevator so that it was unavailable to Williams et al, and then took it back up so that it was then unavailable to Truly and Baker?

Baker said that he encountered Sawyer on his way back down from the roof, but couldn't remember on which floor - he thought it might have been the third or fourth. I suspect it might have been the fifth, because Sawyer said, "And I went with a couple of officers and a man who I believed worked in the building. The elevator was just to the right of the main entrance, and we went to the top floor, which was pointed out to me by this other man as being the floor that we were talking about. We had talked about the fifth floor. And we went back to the storage area and looked around and didn't see anything."

Baker said it was 90 seconds between the shots and when he encountered Oswald, spent 30 seconds interviewing LHO and spent 5 minutes on the roof. So he is encountering Sawyer within 7 or 8 minutes of the shooting.

I think it might have been Sawyer that Luke Mooney was talking about, although why he didn't identify one of his own Inspectors is odd.

Steve Thomas

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It also is reasonable to assume that someone cut the power to the elevator on the west dock

and also tied up the one inside the entry. So persons unknown are dodging about the elevators

making investigators and employees walk the stairs.

It is interesting that Victoria Adams saw BILLY LOVELADY so soon after the shots inside the TSBD.

This would mediate against him being out front during the shooting and serve as evidence that the

man photographed watching the assassination from the front steps with the plaid shirt and missing button

was indeed, Lee Harvey Oswald.

Securing the elevators without being seen doing so,

sparking them to go at will, looks conspiratorial in tactics.

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If that is so (someone please correct me if I'm wrong), then here's another important question: who was Mooney referring to when he said "And I met some other officers coming down, plainclothes, and I believe they were deputy sheriffs. They were coming down the staircase. But I kept going up"???

Duke, in reading Mooney's testimony I wondered the same thing. In fact, his testimony raised a lot of questions in my mind.

After hearing the shots, Mooney runs to the railroad yards because that's where he thought the shots came from. By his account, he is only there for a few seconds, trying to get civilians out of the area. Almost immediately he receives orders to cover the Texas Depository Building from an unnamed officer, apparently relaying them from Sheriff Bill Decker. He, and two other plainclothes officers (Vickery and Webster) immediately run to to the back loading door of the Depository. He closes the gates, and gets an unnamed citizen to watch them. Then he shuts the back door on the little dock and he, Vickery and Webster enter the building.

Vickery and Webster announce they are going up the stairs. Inexplicably, Mooney opts for the elevator without saying why. Ball doesn't ask him. According to Mooney power undoubtedly goes out, so he gets off and goes up the stairs. He encounters some men in plainclothes coming down, cannot identify them, and just keeps going. Did he ask them any questions? Did they say anything? Mooney doesn't say. Ball doesn't ask.

Mooney stops at the sixth floor. He doesn't see anyone. He assumes other officers had been there, but doesn't say why. Ball doesn't ask. He works his way through the maze of boxes, in order to check the open open windows on the south side. Apparently finding nothing, he leaves and goes to the seventh floor, where he is reunited with Vickery and Webster. They are trying to get into the attic, but it is too dark.

The three of them return to the sixth floor. Mooney makes a beeline to the southeast window, wedges himself between the stacked cartons and sees the shells. He also sees a crease in one of the boxes, where he surmises the rifle could have lain. Careful not to touch anything, he leans out the window and hollers and whistles to Decker and Fritz, who are standing below. After some difficulty, Mooney gets their attention. Fritz and other officers quickly arrive.

Ball was so strangely disinterested in all of the above. He spends more time questioning Mooney about the piece of fried chicken, paper bag, and Dr. Pepper bottle than any of the events leading up to Mooney finding the shells.

Who was the unnamed officer that told Mooney to cover the Depository at a time when many (including Mooney) felt the shots came from the railroad yards? Remember that this happened within minutes of the assassination. Mooney ran there with Vickery and Webster. Why did one of them not guard the back gates, instead entrusting that duty to a citizen? Why did Mooney split up from Vickery and Webster? Why did they go immediately to the seventh floor, in order to access the attic? Who did Mooney encounter coming down the stairs? How many men were coming down the stairs? Why did Mooney assume other officers had already been on the sixth floor? It was still only minutes since the assassination, and other than the men coming down the stairs, at that point Mooney had seen no other officers in the building. What was so important about the attic? Did they want to get on the roof? How come Mooney headed staight for the cartons in front of the south east window, when apparently he ignored that area the first time?

I'm sure someone here can explain these things to me.

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There is elsewhere testimony from a police officer - I'm thinking Inspector Sawyer, but could be mistaken - that he and a couple of other officers went in the front door and took the elevator by the front door up to the second floor, and thereafter went to the northwest corner where there was a "storage room," and then went back downstairs.

... One of the questions I've got for someone who worked at TSBD during that era include how the elevators could have been kept from moving. We know that if someone rode the elevator - at least the freight elevator - and didn't close the doors, then the elevator could not be called to another floor for someone else. Was it also possible to have opened another door on a floor where the elevator was NOT and keep it from moving, that is, a contact being broken and stopping the elevator from travelling? A "power outage" could have seemed to have occurred if this was the case.

,,, When B&T got to the fifth floor, they found and got onto the passenger elevator there; the freight elevator was not there, but had apparently gone down to another floor (Truly didn't state where it had gone to or if he had even looked), an action that he attributed to Dougherty.

If that is so (someone please correct me if I'm wrong), then here's another important question: who was Mooney referring to when he said "And I met some other officers coming down, plainclothes, and I believe they were deputy sheriffs. They were coming down the staircase. But I kept going up"???

Over the last couple of days, I've been mulling over this west elevator business, trying to correlate the statements of everyone concerned - Adams and Baker and Truly and Bonnie Williams and Hank Norman, etc.

Truly said that when he first tried to call the freight elevator, it wouldn't respond. Baker said that he looked up the shaft and saw the bottom of the elevator, "three or floors up". But when they got to the fifth floor, the elevator wasn't there. Like you said, he attibuted that to Jack Dougherty, but that was only a guess.

I've been wondering who took that elevator, because after hearing the shots and running to the west window, Wliiiams and Jarman and Norman had to run down the stairs because the elevator they rode up to the fifth floor on, that west freight elevator was gone. Norman said that he closed the gates "to make it available to anyone who wanted it."

Who took that elevator so that it was unavailable to Williams et al, and then took it back up so that it was then unavailable to Truly and Baker?

Baker said that he encountered Sawyer on his way back down from the roof, but couldn't remember on which floor - he thought it might have been the third or fourth. I suspect it might have been the fifth, because Sawyer said, "And I went with a couple of officers and a man who I believed worked in the building. The elevator was just to the right of the main entrance, and we went to the top floor, which was pointed out to me by this other man as being the floor that we were talking about. We had talked about the fifth floor. And we went back to the storage area and looked around and didn't see anything."

Baker said it was 90 seconds between the shots and when he encountered Oswald, spent 30 seconds interviewing LHO and spent 5 minutes on the roof. So he is encountering Sawyer within 7 or 8 minutes of the shooting.

I think it might have been Sawyer that Luke Mooney was talking about, although why he didn't identify one of his own Inspectors is odd.

Steve Thomas

I've been through the same exercise and have it all written down somewhere, complete with references. Are you certain that Truly didn't say where the elevators were? Either he or Baker or both had indicated that the two floors were level with each other, that is, on the same floor.

The elevator operator WAS unquestionably Jack Dougherty. He is the only one who said that he was on the fifth and sixth floors during the relevant time period, and if I'm not mistaken, he even said that he took the elevator downstairs.

Completely lacking in popular mythology is this FACT: Jack Dougherty is the only TSBD employee who has no alibi other than his own word for what he was doing when and after the shots were fired.

Even Lee Oswald was seen by people before and after the shooting, in places that it would have been difficult - tho' admittedly not impossible - for him to have been with enough time to either /a/ get to the sixth floor with enough time to spare before the motorcade arrived (remember: it was five minutes late, something nobody could have counted on), or /b/ get from the sixth floor after the shooting.

Nobody saw Jack anywhere at any time after people started going out to watch the parade, and nobody mentions having seen him after ONE person (Arce?) said that he saw him in the lunch room immediately after noon.

In his testimony, Jack said that he "usually" took the entire time alloted for lunch, but that on this particular day, he went "back to work" immediately after eating his lunch. He stated that he went to the fifth floor and then to the sixth "to get some stock," but he did not testify to having seen Bonnie Ray Williams on the sixth, nor any of the three men (Williams, Hank Norman or Junior Jarman) or anyone else on the fifth floor afterward, nor did any of them admit to having seen him.

Jack also did not claim to have seen Oswald or anybody else on the sixth floor at any time, and didn't see or hear anyone coming down the stairs as Oswald is said to have done, which he presumably would have had to see and/or hear if he was where he said he'd been ... unless he either wasn't there (then, why say you were?), or he was and wasn't going to tell anyone what he'd seen ... and if it had been Oswald he'd seen, why not say so? It was the popular thing to do at the time! "Hiding" what everyone "knew" to be "fact?" The only answer here is that he "couldn't" have seen anything of import because then he'd have to explain it in detail, which he couldn't have done without slipping up, so he "saw nuh-think" in good Sgt Schultz style. Or he participated in it.

A bit more about Jack: he was Truly's "pet," the self-styled "building manager" who arrived at around 7:00 a.m. - an hour before anyone else - to "check the pipes" in the basement for "leaks." I don't think, given this relationship between them - that both he and Truly alluded to in their testimonies - that it was a "guess" on Truly's part, but rather something he learned from Jack himself (that ... being generous?) during the five months between the assassination and their depositions.

It is noteworthy, given this "project" of Jack's, that he had plenty of time before people arrived to have gotten a length of paper from the shipping roll without having been seen (which Oswald could not - and did not, according to Troy West and Wesley Frazier's testimonies). He would also, either before everyone else arrived or while they'd all gone outside to watch the parade, been in a position to move a rifle or rifles into position from elsewhere in the building and remove them afterward.

Since he wasn't constrained by having to be in the lunchroom 75 seconds after the shooting, he also had time to "hide" the MC rifle beneath the boxes on the sixth floor. In fact, he had all the time he needed - up to the point when Roy Truly yelled up the elevator shaft - to do whatever was needed. If the MC rifle wasn't a murder weapon, then he had time to do it even before the shooting began ... and he WAS there, by his own admission. But (ahem!) "saw nothing."

So how did Jack manage to not see - and not be seen by - anybody during all that time? Was Jack Dougherty a shooter, or assisting the shooter(s)? Did he help to clear out the sixth floor beforehand - telling Bonnie Ray Williams to skedaddle and not say anything to anybody (remember: in 1963 in the South, black folk hadn't left the "yes massa" mentality far behind ... and if there was someone else there with a gun to enforce it ...?)? Did he make sure the three men on the fifth floor didn't go to the elevator while his cohorts were getting on ... and then rode them down a short distance (say to the fourth or third floor?) before letting them off and continuing down on his own? Was Jack the "white man" in some sort of "uniform" seen by Amos Euins in the window beside another man? Were such cohorts the "sheriffs deputies" that Mooney encountered on the stairs? If so, it seems that that would be about the only slip-up they'd made all day.

All of these things are possible, and since he wasn't seen by anybody immediately before or after the shooting - as Lee Oswald was - they make it even more likely that Jack Dougherty had a hand in it than Oswald having done it all ... or at all!

As a final note regarding Sawyer (or whomever), it's not terribly "odd" that Mooney wouldn't have recognized him since Sawyer was DPD and Mooney was DCSD ... tho' I'd speculate that Sawyer had been around long enough that Mooney would have recognized him even tho' they were in different departments.

But what's more important is that "Sawyer" said that he did not go above the second floor, so therefore Mooney could not have seen him "coming down" from the same floor as Mooney had gotten off of the elevator. So cross that one off your list! The "sheriff's deputies" were someone else. The question is, who?

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If that is so (someone please correct me if I'm wrong), then here's another important question: who was Mooney referring to when he said "And I met some other officers coming down, plainclothes, and I believe they were deputy sheriffs. They were coming down the staircase. But I kept going up"???
Duke, in reading Mooney's testimony I wondered the same thing. In fact, his testimony raised a lot of questions in my mind.

After hearing the shots, Mooney runs to the railroad yards because that's where he thought the shots came from. By his account, he is only there for a few seconds, trying to get civilians out of the area. Almost immediately he receives orders to cover the Texas Depository Building from an unnamed officer, apparently relaying them from Sheriff Bill Decker. He, and two other plainclothes officers (Vickery and Webster) immediately run to to the back loading door of the Depository. He closes the gates, and gets an unnamed citizen to watch them. Then he shuts the back door on the little dock and he, Vickery and Webster enter the building.

Vickery and Webster announce they are going up the stairs. Inexplicably, Mooney opts for the elevator without saying why. Ball doesn't ask him. According to Mooney power undoubtedly goes out, so he gets off and goes up the stairs. He encounters some men in plainclothes coming down, cannot identify them, and just keeps going. Did he ask them any questions? Did they say anything? Mooney doesn't say. Ball doesn't ask.

Mooney stops at the sixth floor. He doesn't see anyone. He assumes other officers had been there, but doesn't say why. Ball doesn't ask. He works his way through the maze of boxes, in order to check the open open windows on the south side. Apparently finding nothing, he leaves and goes to the seventh floor, where he is reunited with Vickery and Webster. They are trying to get into the attic, but it is too dark.

The three of them return to the sixth floor. Mooney makes a beeline to the southeast window, wedges himself between the stacked cartons and sees the shells. He also sees a crease in one of the boxes, where he surmises the rifle could have lain. Careful not to touch anything, he leans out the window and hollers and whistles to Decker and Fritz, who are standing below. After some difficulty, Mooney gets their attention. Fritz and other officers quickly arrive.

Ball was so strangely disinterested in all of the above. He spends more time questioning Mooney about the piece of fried chicken, paper bag, and Dr. Pepper bottle than any of the events leading up to Mooney finding the shells.

Who was the unnamed officer that told Mooney to cover the Depository at a time when many (including Mooney) felt the shots came from the railroad yards? Remember that this happened within minutes of the assassination. Mooney ran there with Vickery and Webster. Why did one of them not guard the back gates, instead entrusting that duty to a citizen? Why did Mooney split up from Vickery and Webster? Why did they go immediately to the seventh floor, in order to access the attic? Who did Mooney encounter coming down the stairs? How many men were coming down the stairs? Why did Mooney assume other officers had already been on the sixth floor? It was still only minutes since the assassination, and other than the men coming down the stairs, at that point Mooney had seen no other officers in the building. What was so important about the attic? Did they want to get on the roof? How come Mooney headed staight for the cartons in front of the south east window, when apparently he ignored that area the first time?

I'm sure someone here can explain these things to me.

The words you often repeat are: "Mooney doesn't say. Ball doesn't ask." Most of the questions seem to be toward eliciting minor, unimportant details rather than the "meat" that Mooney puts on the table and that Ball has no interest in.

There is no explaining, sometimes, why anybody does anything other than "it seemed like the thing to do at the time." Everyone - Baker and Truly included - seems interested in the roof because it would seem like a more likely place to shoot from and not be detected than inside a building where people might be? All three of the deputies might have considered taking the elevator, the other two deciding to take the stairs so that they might catch someone trying to escape down the stairs rather than bypassing them as they rode up the elevator, the easiest and therefore most likely method of transportation up? Mooney could have presumed other officers were on the sixth floor simply because he saw two of them coming down?

As I'd noted in the message above, the shooter(s) could have ridden the elevator - or even taken the stairs - down to either the fourth or third floor and stayed there for a short while (who'd suspect a cop anyway?) waiting for whoever was running up the stairs - Webster and Vickery - to pass by, then continuing down when the officers had gone by, only to encounter Mooney after the elevator had jammed. Oops!

Luckily, Mooney apparently didn't recognize them, and hadn't looked into who they might have been in the interceding months leading to his testimony. Or he did, and figured it was better to leave well enough alone. The "someone other than Oswald did it" stance wasn't terribly popular - or career-enhancing - during that period.

As to Ball being "strangely disinterested" in all of this, I've often thought that WC counsel suspected - or knew - something other than "the official story" was what really happened, but knew both that /a/ the conclusion had already been reached by the powers that be, their employers as it were, and /b/ that they'd never get answers or find they evidence needed to get the truth out, so instead they opted for making sure that certain bits of seemingly irrelevant information found its way onto the record.

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It also is reasonable to assume that someone cut the power to the elevator on the west dock and also tied up the one inside the entry. So persons unknown are dodging about the elevators making investigators and employees walk the stairs.

It is interesting that Victoria Adams saw BILLY LOVELADY so soon after the shots inside the TSBD.

This would mediate against him being out front during the shooting and serve as evidence that the man photographed watching the assassination from the front steps with the plaid shirt and missing button was indeed, Lee Harvey Oswald.

Securing the elevators without being seen doing so, sparking them to go at will, looks conspiratorial in tactics.

I think it's a pretty big assumption, so I'm not so certain of its reasonableness. Where were these persons? How did they manage not to be seen by anyone? Clearly they had to be in the right place(s) at the right time doing the right things and not interfering with anything else ... and then get out without being seen either.

Not only would they be "making investigators and employees walk the stairs," but would also be making their co-conspirators do the same ... virtually guaranteeing that they would run into each other.

Also, pay close attention to all of the things that Victoria Adams did and places she'd been before encountering Lovelady inside: it was not "so soon after the shots" as you make it sound. I don't think it mitigates for or against anything, but I'm open to being convinced otherwise!

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