Weird scene's inside the goldmine.

[Guest Stephen Turner]

Seven months after the assassination Earl Warren, Gerald Ford and a bevy of staff Lawyers arrived in Dallas to interview Ruby. At first he simply repeated his well rehearsed story for his VIP audiance.

"No one requested me to do anything"......"I never spoke to anyone about attempting to do anything"...."No underworld persons made any effort to contact me"...."It all just happened that Sunday morning"...." The last thing that I read was that mrs Kennedy may have to come back to Dallas for a trial for Oswald, and I dont know what bug got hold of me"...."Suddenly the emotional feelings came within me that someone owed this debt to our beloved President, to save her (sic) the ordeal of coming back"...."I had the gun inmy right hip pocket, and impulsively, if that is the right word here, I saw him, and that is all I can say"..."I think I used the words, you killed my President you rat(witnesses only recall Ruby shouting "Oswald")the next thing I was down on the floor, and there you have it"...

**This is Ruby playing the sentimental, avenging patriot, and the Commmission saw fit to buy into it 100%**

During these meetings, apart from parroting the, by now, official story Ruby spoke for hours at a time most of it, seemingly, disjointed, off topic ramblings, Warren, apparantly, thought he was a Psychiatric case and the Commission returned the finding that Ruby had acted alone in the murder of Oswald.

It has always seemed to me, as someone who has worked most of his adult life in Mental Health, that Rubys rambling, far from being the product of an ill mind, betrays someone desperately trying to tell a truth, whilst being unsure how this will be recieved, and at the same time terrified about the consequences of this line of action. Take for example his claim that Jews would be killed in vast numbers because of what he had done, people under unsupportable pressure to keep a secret, but who are, in reality desprate to tell, often refer to their sitution obliquely, in third person terms at least once removed, could the "Jews" who were going to be killed in fact be a reference to himself, and not because of what he had done, but rather, what he could tell?

Then what to make of these statements."Gentlemen, unless you get me to Washington, you cant get a fair shake out of me"....I am not a crackpot, I have all my sences, please take me to Washington"...(eight times in all Ruby begged Warren to arrange his transfer to the Capital, for further questioning and lie detector tests, eight times he was refused)..."Gentlemen, my life is in danger here".... The commission, which easily had the power to arrange for Rubys transfer, prefered to beleive it was all paranoia. Short of declaring that he had testimony, important testimony that he could not give in Dallas for fear of his, and others lives, its difficult, given his situation, to see what else Jack Ruby could have done.

**A month before the Dallas meetings, two staff Lawyers, Hubert, and Griffin who had been specifically tasked with investigating Rubys background laid out their concerns in a long memorandum to C/C Rankin, they believed that the ongoing investigation was inadequate, and a long way from proving that Ruby had not acted as part of a conspiracy to silence Oswald, after this Hubert, and Griffin found them selves gradually ostracised, rankin infered that the pair were psychotic, Hubert found himself so compromised that he resigned, after extracting a promise that he could be present when Ruby was investigated, a promise that Rankin failed to keep. When the Commission members departed for Dallas both Hubert and Griffin, the Commissions experts on Ruby were left, clicking their heels in D/C..**

Edited October 5, 2006 by Stephen Turner

[Guest Stephen Turner]

Okay, lets take a speculative, psychological leap and try to deduce what was going on inside Ruby's mind:

After the assassination the plan was to murder Oswald as he made his "escape" Maybe Tippit, or McDonald or a person unknown was tasked with this part of the operation, whichever, when Oswald was taken into custody this part of the operation failed, and so forced a fall back to plan B. Ruby has plenty of mob connections, although he himself is low down on the totem, and probably in hock to the syndicate up to his eyeballs, a "friend," with similar mob ties visits him, probably probably on the day of the assassination, and puts the following proposal to Ruby. "Jack, the guys need you to hit Oswald, you dont need to know who or why, but it must be done as a favour. They told me if you do this thing for them, you can forget your debts, they'll even give you a few grand up front to show good faith, if you decline this offer, you and all you care about are finished, these are serious f****** guys Jack they mean what they say no B/S, use a gun that can only be traced to you, keep in touch by phone and we will give you the when and where, or, if you can get close enough to the bastard waste him at your own discression, just dont get yourself caught before you do the hit. Hey Jack dont worry, they'll probably give you a medal for wasting the SOB, hell he's gonna get fried anyway, you'll get five years max, the guys will look after your interests while your away, and when you get out, your straight with the house again, on easy street."

I doubt Ruby could have refused the above proposal, but he is now a man with a terrible job to do, and a terrible secret to keep. what would this have done to his mental state, and by extention, his behaviour, and how would this have manifseted itself in the run up to the slaying of Oswald?

[Guest Mark Valenti]

Okay, lets take a speculative, psychological leap and try to deduce what was going on inside Ruby's mind:

After the assassination the plan was to murder Oswald as he made his "escape" Maybe Tippit, or McDonald or a person unknown was tasked with this part of the operation, whichever, when Oswald was taken into custody this part of the operation failed, and so forced a fall back to plan B. Ruby has plenty of mob connections, although he himself is low down on the totem, and probably in hock to the syndicate up to his eyeballs, a "friend," with similar mob ties visits him, probably probably on the day of the assassination, and puts the following proposal to Ruby. "Jack, the guys need you to hit Oswald, you dont need to know who or why, but it must be done as a favour. They told me if you do this thing for them, you can forget your debts, they'll even give you a few grand up front to show good faith, if you decline this offer, you and all you care about are finished, these are serious f****** guys Jack they mean what they say no B/S, use a gun that can only be traced to you, keep in touch by phone and we will give you the when and where, or, if you can get close enough to the bastard waste him at your own discression, just dont get yourself caught before you do the hit. Hey Jack dont worry, they'll probably give you a medal for wasting the SOB, hell he's gonna get fried anyway, you'll get five years max, the guys will look after your interests while your away, and when you get out, your straight with the house again, on easy street."

I doubt Ruby could have refused the above proposal, but he is now a man with a terrible job to do, and a terrible secret to keep. what would this have done to his mental state, and by extention, his behaviour, and how would this have manifseted itself in the run up to the slaying of Oswald?

I think this is entirely possible - they say his trip to Western Union proved that he had NO intention of shooting LHO but what if he went to Western Union HOPING to miss having to shoot him? "Guys, I was ready to shoot him but they moved him before I could get there."

[Guest Stephen Turner]

]

I think this is entirely possible - they say his trip to Western Union proved that he had NO intention of shooting LHO but what if he went to Western Union HOPING to miss having to shoot him? "Guys, I was ready to shoot him but they moved him before I could get there."

Mark, Ruby was certainly a man with his feet to the fire that weekend. his virtual stalking of Oswald at DPD H/Q, marathon phone call sessions, erratic, wildly vasilating behavior, talking about closing his clubs in respect, Kantor's sighting of him at Parkland, his trips to the synagogue, and radio station where one staffer reported him looking "rather pale, and shaken, as he talked to me he kept looking at the floor."He tells anyone who will listen how upset he is over the assassination, and how bad he feels for Mrs Kennedy. this behavour is far more indicative of a man with a terrible act to perform, and the setting up of an alibi, than one who feels bad about the Presidents wife having to return to the scene of her Husbands murder.

[Ron Ecker]

what if he went to Western Union HOPING to miss having to shoot him? "Guys, I was ready to shoot him but they moved him before I could get there."

They were not going to move Oswald until Ruby was in place. That's why they had a guy from the post office asking Oswald questions while they waited for the signal to move. I don't think this "delay" was a coincidence, any more than Ruby showing up was a coincidence.

[Dawn Meredith]

Steve: (etc)

I think far more compelling words by Ruby to Warren and Ford were these:

"And I wish that our beloved President, Lyndon Johnson, would have delved deeper into the situation, hear me, not to accept just circumstantial facts about my truth or innocence, and would have questioned to find out the truth about me before he relinquished certain powers to these certain people...Consequently a whole new form of government is going to to take over our country and I know I won't live to see you another time...".

Now you LN's here on this forum how do explain away THESE damning words??

Dawn

[Michael Hogan]

"Gentlemen, unless you get me to Washington, you cant get a fair shake out of me"....I am not a crackpot, I have all my senses, please take me to Washington"...(eight times in all Ruby begged Warren to arrange his transfer to the Capital, for further questioning and lie detector tests, eight times he was refused)..."Gentlemen, my life is in danger here"....

"And I wish that our beloved President, Lyndon Johnson, would have delved deeper into the situation, hear me, not to accept just circumstantial facts about my truth or innocence, and would have questioned to find out the truth about me before he relinquished certain powers to these certain people...Consequently a whole new form of government is going to to take over our country and I know I won't live to see you another time..."

The failure of the American public, by and large, to demand an honest investigation of President Kennedy's murder makes us accessories after the fact, just as sure as the members of the Warren Commission.

I wanna tell you about Texas Radio and the Big Beat.....

I tell you this;

No eternal reward will

Forgive us now for

Wasting the dawn

Lyrics from: The Wasp (Texas Radio and the Big Beat)

Album: Weird Scenes Inside the Gold Mine

Date: 1972

Artist: The Doors

Label: Elektra Records 8E-6001

Edited October 5, 2006 by Michael Hogan

[Lee Forman]

Hi Steve - I posted this once before someplace. It was for sale on eBay I think - it was supposedly a letter written by Ruby while he was in prison. FWIW. I couldn't seem to find any other pages - maybe the text is here someplace on the forum.

- lee

[Guest Stephen Turner]

Thanx to all for responding.

A few more inconsistancies, where did the excuse that Ruby shot Oswald originate? according to Ruby it came from Tom Howard, the lawyer appointed to his case. In a letter to another Lawyer Ruby states. "It was not my idea to say I shot Oswald to keep Jackie Kennedy from coming back here to testify, Tom Howard told me to say so. So, according to Ruby even that flimsy excuse is not his, but usual Lawyerly disception. Which begs the question SO WHY DID YOU SHOOT OSWALD, IF NOT UNDER DURESS FROM OUTSIDE AGENCIES TO DO SO?

The first enquiery into the matter stated that Ruby had got into the basement by slipping, unnoticed, past the Policeman guarding the ramp. It further stated that the officer concerned, Roy Vaughn, was distracted by a police car leaving the basement. This conclusion ignores not only Vaughn, but several other credible eyewitnesses, Vaughn, who knew Ruby, testified that from his position nobody could have got passed him without being noticed, all of the three policemen in the car, two of whom knew Ruby, said no-one had entered as they where leaving. Other coroberation came from Police Sergeant Flusche, who was standing oposite the ramp, and a cab driver who was watching the ramp, and a reporter who had stationed himself beside the ramp.SO HOW AND WHERE DID RUBY, UNAIDED ENTER THE STATION?

[Greg Parker]

I think this is entirely possible - they say his trip to Western Union proved that he had NO intention of shooting LHO but what if he went to Western Union HOPING to miss having to shoot him? "Guys, I was ready to shoot him but they moved him before I could get there."

Mark, they used the time stamp from Western Union and a phone call to Ruby's apartment by his house cleaner to "prove" he'd only just arrived, and the timing was entirely coincidental. What they had to ignore in all of that was:

After the first visit to the WC by the Carlins, in which they gave the "we needed rent money" line, the FBI paid a visit to their landlord. They were not behind at all. When called back by the WC, they now said they needed it for "food and medicine". One document held in the DPD collection show that they were in fact running a brothel from the garage apartment. Another document - A Wanted Persons Report completed after her grandmother reported her missing, states in part regarding Karen, "money carried - Unknown - Usually Carries Large Amounts". The Carlins needed cash like I need a carbuncle;

The house cleaner did not seem to recognise the person she spoke to that morning as being Ruby, and the person claimed later to be Ruby, did not seem to know her;

At least three witnesses saw Ruby hanging around City Hall well before his "official" arrival;

The car park attendant claimed he did not start work until noon that day - thus not asked to verify when Ruby's car first arrived. However, he also claimed that on arrival, there were only about 6 cars in the lot, including Ruby's. I'd question that on the basis that it was the most convenient spot for all the media. Only six cars sounds more like it would be right for 8 or 9 o'clock - not noon. And his explanation for what happened with regard to cars coming in before noon comes off sounding slightly absurd for a profit-oriented business - as indeed does having a car park open all morning with no one there. In any event, he apparently did put a ticket on Ruby's car windscreen, because he testified that the cops gave it back to him before they took the car away. A nice way to treat evidence.

[Lee Forman]

Worthless reply perhaps - I found a reference on the internet once concerning Jack Beers - the photographer who was quite bitter about losing out on the big opportunity to capture Ruby shooting Oswald.

http://www.dallasnews.com/s/dws/spe/2003/j...shot.378ed.html

Six-tenths of a second, 2 lives forever changed

'He was a victim of timing and circumstance, and it's something he never got over'

02:25 PM CST on Tuesday, January 27, 2004

By MICHAEL GRANBERRY / The Dallas Morning News

From the moment he lunged out of the shadows and pulled the trigger on his .38-caliber Colt Cobra, Jack Ruby did more than blast his way into history.

Lee Harvey Oswald, the man suspected of killing President John F. Kennedy two days earlier, suffered a single, fatal shot from Ruby's gun.

But other men standing in the basement of the Dallas police station on Sunday morning, Nov. 24, 1963, saw their own lives change, none more so than a pair of photojournalists who captured the moment in black and white.

For Robert H. "Bob" Jackson, then a 29-year-old photographer for the Dallas Times Herald, taking a picture of Oswald's murder meant winning the Pulitzer Prize in 1964.

But for Ira Jefferson "Jack" Beers Jr., who worked for The Dallas Morning News – and who took an almost equally vivid picture – the basement events left an entirely different legacy.

Those who knew him say he never recovered from missing the Pulitzer by six-tenths of a second – the time between his photograph and Mr. Jackson's.

"I know this sounds stupid, but for years, I wouldn't even talk to people about it. It hurt a lot," says Darlene Beers Williams, 50, the second of Mr. Beers' three children, whose father died of a heart attack in 1975. He was 51.

Mr. Beers was "industrious, careful, experienced, knowledgeable and dedicated," said Tom Dillard, who in 1963 was the Morning News ' chief photographer. (Mr. Dillard was interviewed shortly before his death in late May.) "But on that day, he was a victim of timing and circumstance, and it's something he never got over."

His daughter attributes the difference in the photos to an accident of timing, a twist of fate.

"It really hurt my dad when Bob won the Pulitzer Prize," says Ms. Williams, a manager at a Garland retirement home.

Her father "always said, 'I was there. I was prepared. But I didn't get it.' "

Someone once suggested that Jack Beers was the one who helped Ruby gain entrance to the basement - I found that while googling one day accidentally - having him assist in bringing some of the larger camera equipment down into the basement as the pretext. Just speculation on someone's part I guess. Sounded interesting. I wasn't able to ever find that reference again. It is strange when you consider the left-field questions which some folks are presented with in the Warren Report.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall a TV camera being wheeled into the basement shortly before Jack Ruby shot Oswald?

Mr. BEERS. No, sir; I don't. A big live camera?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. BEERS. I don't recall seeing that. I may have, but I don't recall seeing it.

Also if you have ever wondered about the relationship of the Press/Media in Dallas and the events that transpired those few days. Why was Oswald moved at the time he was - because of the Press. How did Ruby gain entrance to the Press Conference for Oswald? By posing as Press. Who did Jean Hill claim roughed them up, seized their photos and had them held against their will after the shooting? Who was later in Ruby's apartment? Who claimed to have seen Ruby at Parkland when no one else did? 'When the news went live' - just another amazing coincidence. Who ever heard of recreating and staging an event like this after the fact like Sam Pate was requested to do? And on and on and on.

Spartacus

Tom Howard was born in 1917. After qualifying as a lawyer he settled in Dallas. Jack Ruby murdered Lee Harvey Oswald on 24th November, 1963. Ruby asked Howard if he would take the case. Howard had a good record and none of his clients had been executed.

On 24th November, 1963, Bill Hunter (Long Beach Independent Press Telegram) and Jim Koethe (Dallas Times Herald) interviewed George Senator. Also there was the attorney Tom Howard. Earlier that day Senator and Howard had both visited Jack Ruby in jail. That evening Senator arranged for Koethe, Hunter and Howard to search Ruby's apartment.

It was Howard who came up with the idea that Ruby should say in court that he killed Oswald because he "couldn't bear the idea of the President's widow being subjected to testifying at the trial of Oswald". Howard told friends he intended to put Ruby on the stand. Howard planned to argue that killing Oswald was like "another n murder case" and after pleading guilty to murder without malice would get "five years in prison at most".

Jack Ruby was not convinced by this approach and replaced Howard with Melvin Belli.

On 23rd April 1964, Bill Hunter was shot dead by Creighton Wiggins, a policeman in the pressroom of a Long Beach police station. Wiggins initially claimed that his gun fired when he dropped it and tried to pick it up. In court this was discovered that this was impossible and it was decided that Hunter had been murdered. Wiggins finally admitted he was playing a game of quick draw with his fellow officer. The other officer, Errol F. Greenleaf, testified he had his back turned when the shooting took place. In January 1965, both were convicted and sentenced to three years probation.

Jim Koethe decided to write a book about the assassination of Kennedy. However, he died on 21st September, 1964. It seems that a man broke into his Dallas apartment and killed him by a karate chop to the throat.

Tom Howard died of a heart-attack, aged 48, on 27th March, 1965.

- lee

[Steve Thomas]

Stephen,

SO HOW AND WHERE DID RUBY, UNAIDED ENTER THE STATION?

The strongest piece of evidence pointing to the spontaneity the shooting of LHO by Jack Ruby. Is the fact that the time stamp on Ruby's telegram to Little lynn read 11:16 and Ruby shot Oswald at 11:20, only giving him 4 minutes to get from Western Union to City Hall.

In his testimony before the HSCA, Lt. Jack Revill said,

"Now, I will bring something up at this time. I personally conducted that investigation, Lieutenant McCaghren and I. We are basing the times on the statement of the Western Union employee, who says that Ruby sent this wire at 11:16, and this is verified by a date time stamp.

In talking to this individual, McCaghren and I questioned him as to whether or not he actually date time stamped it automatically or immediately. He said, yes; he did because that was procedure. But that doubt was always in my mind. It is possible there was some time lapse in that maybe he didn't do this at the time because this was a part of the procedure, yes, he said he did it. So who knows?"

The Western Union clerk who took Ruby's telegram was named, Doyle Lane.

In 1955 Lane was arrested for being Drunk and Disorderly

In 1956 he was arrested for being Drunk and Disorderly and Resisting Arrest

In 1962 he was arrested for Disturbing the Peace.

All three arrests show different home addresses

DPD Archives Box 4, Folder# 2, Item# 30.

http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/box4.htm

Not the most stable person.

Could he have been bribed to alter the date stamp? Bullied? Threatened? Coorced?

Mr. REVILL. There are also two other alternatives, and it is a possibility. After determining that information from Sergeant Flusche, Mr. Moriarity and I personally, walked to the basement of city hall and I found some more steps. I have been there in that building off and on almost 28 years, and I didn't know the steps were there; never paid any attention to them. There is another set of steps here that lead into the basement of city hall.

Mr. SAWYER. From where?

Mr. REVILL. From the first floor of the municipal building. The municipal building, at that time, was the city hall. The city hall, or municipal building and the police and courts building are two separate buildings, although they are connected.

Mr. SAWYER. Is there a door, there, too?

Mr. REVILL. There is a door leading out of the basement into some steps. You can go to the first floor of the municipal building.

The police and courts building sits up at the corner of Harwood and Main. There is an alleyway that runs parallel to Harwood.

Midway between Commerce and Main Street, there is an entrance to the Municipal Building. Today, that door has a dead bolt lock. Now, what it had in 1963, I don't know. It could have had a panic lock; who knows. I don't know.

Another alternative is rather than coming down Main Street at all, Ruby could have come Central Expressway to an alleyway that runs midway between Commerce and Main Street and walked right into the area and it would not affect the timing at all. So, it still falls within the time frame of 4 minutes.

Mr. SAWYER. Was that door and steps from the municipal building secured or guarded in any way?

Mr. REVILL. At one time, I am told by members of the staff, there had been a police reserve officer here, but prior to Mr. Oswald being brought out, this officer had been reassigned. I am just quoting one of your staff members. I was not present at the location that day.

You might want to read Revill's HSCA testimony, it's pretty enlightening.

http://jfkassassination.net/russ/jfkinfo2/jfk4/hscarevl.htm

Steve Thomas

[John Dolva]

"Also if you have ever wondered about the relationship of the Press/Media in Dallas and the events that transpired those few days. Why was Oswald moved at the time he was - because of the Press. How did Ruby gain entrance to the Press Conference for Oswald? By posing as Press. Who did Jean Hill claim roughed them up, seized their photos and had them held against their will after the shooting? Who was later in Ruby's apartment? Who claimed to have seen Ruby at Parkland when no one else did? 'When the news went live' - just another amazing coincidence. Who ever heard of recreating and staging an event like this after the fact like Sam Pate was requested to do? And on and on and on. "

"Why was Oswald moved at the time he was - because of the Press."

Not quite. He was supposed to be moved because of the press some time before he actually was moved. The move was delayed because Harry D. Holmes prolonged the interview until a banging on the door brought it to an end. The 'coincidence' is that this coincided with Ruby (as Ron brought up) getting into the picture.

Further::

Thomas Buchanon makes the observation ("Who killed Kennedy" 1964) that while Ruby was such an admirer of Kennedy he choose to spend the time of the motorcade in the Dallas Morning News building. He then points out that the sixth floor of the TSBD is visible from the room that Ruby was in.

Can anyone confirm or deny that the room Ruby is supposed to have been in is so located?

If so, there is a curious coincidence that two significant individuals who

1. had an important role in gathering evidence against Oswald.

2. murdered Oswald

were also well situated to witness a shooter in the 'nest'...prescience? coincidence?

(image)

Edited October 7, 2006 by John Dolva