T'ain't no such thing as 'illuminati' Part II

[Mark Stapleton]

Great stuff, Lee.

Eugenics is an interesting subject. Overpopulation is shaping up as the biggest threat to the planet's survival. In Gore's "An Inconvenient Truth", he highlights the fact that when he was born in 1948, world population was 2.6 billion. If he lives to his statistically expected lifespan (78, I think), the population will be 9 billion. 2.6 billion to 9 billion in one man's lifetime.

The illuminati knows this and has plans to reduce the populations of third world countries accordingly, if necessary. Of course, these plans should be withheld from the less enlightened who might suggest more humanitarian ways of controlling world population growth, including the suggestion that economic systems based on endless growth, profit and exploitation of non-renewable resources are ultimately incompatible with the planet's survival.

Ah well, the illuminati has managed to go part of the way already. According to the respected British medical publication Lancet, Iraq's population has been reduced by 1/40th since the war began--without resort to biotech weapons:

http://www.upi.com/InternationalIntelligen...11-101852-9569r

Way to go guys!

p.s. to Len and the members of the debunkers association--just because you didn't read about an event in the paper or see it on Fox News doesn't mean it didn't occur. By now you should have learned from recent history that the media is tightly controlled and keeps the public in the dark about many, many things.

[Jack White]

About thirty years ago a New World Order think tank produced a secret

report for the president regarding world population control.

It was called GLOBAL 2000.

It called for reductions in undesirable (non-white) populations through

eugenics methods like:

1. Famines in underdeveloped (black) countries

2. Man-made disese epidemics (AIDS) in black populations

3. Drugs in black populations

4. "Limited" small continuing wars targeting ethnic groups (moslems)

These eugenics goals coincide with belief of Bonesmen.

Google BUSH, EUGENICS, GLOBAL 2000, SKULL AND BONES,

AIDS, AFRICA, ETC.

Check current events for news of Famines, AIDS, Drugs, Arab wars.

All were goals to be achieved by the year 2000.

Jack

[Len Colby]

Google has thousand of sources on ILLUMINATI, SKULL AND BONES, BUSHES,

MASONS, THOUSAND POINTS OF LIGHT, NEW WORLD ORDER.

excerpted and paraphrased from a typical one: ...

LOL – This is too effing funny for words! Jack thinks that something’s existence can be proven by the number of Google hits it gets; is he really that detached from reality? I suggest he google “loch ness monster”, Bigfoot, “frosty the showman”. “abominable snowman” and ‘WMD’s +iraq’ and see how many hits he gets. The fact that so many sites have similar information only proves that they copy each other note that they don’t cite any evidence other than other similar sites and obscure books that don’t cite any evidence either except for….

Can’t fault humble Jack for his logical fallacy though, his sidekick Fetzer with his Ivy League education, fancy degrees, books and self proclaimed status as (America’s? the World’s?) most accomplished academic [1] tried using the same argument. [2]

1] http://groups.yahoo.com/group/jfk-research/message/3858 he wrote “I know of no faculty member anywhere whose combination of achievements exceeds my own!”

2] http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FETZERclaimsDEBUNK/message/1856 (membership required), he wrote “If you do a google search and enter "RF weapons", there are 397,000 items. If you enter "EM weapons", there are 21,000,000 items. And if you enter "HERF guns", there are 4,630 items--pretty good for a class of weapons that, according to some on the forum, do not exist!” The number of hits he reported was greatly exaggerated (“RF weapons” only returned 576 hits) and no one disputed the existence of or at least research on such weapons.

Len

Great stuff, Lee.

Great stuff to bad his sources couldn't cite any evidence to suppoert their claims

"The illuminati knows this and has plans to reduce the populations of third world countries accordingly..."

Do you really believe this crap? You seemed reletively rational to me and not part of the Forum's lunatic fringe. When I joked about the Illuminati, Ron got pissed of

"p.s. to Len and the members of the debunkers association--just because you didn't read about an event in the paper or see it on Fox News doesn't mean it didn't occur."

The Strawman from OZ strikes again, when did I ever say something has to be on Fox News? I like to see evidence of something before I believe it exists. All that believers in the illuminati can cite are sources that can not document their claims.

About thirty years ago a New World Order think tank produced a secret

report for the president regarding world population control.

It was called GLOBAL 2000.

It called for reductions in undesirable (non-white) populations through

eugenics methods like:

1. Famines in underdeveloped (black) countries

2. Man-made disese epidemics (AIDS) in black populations

3. Drugs in black populations

4. "Limited" small continuing wars targeting ethnic groups (moslems)

These eugenics goals coincide with belief of Bonesmen.

Google BUSH, EUGENICS, GLOBAL 2000, SKULL AND BONES,

AIDS, AFRICA, ETC.

Check current events for news of Famines, AIDS, Drugs, Arab wars.

All were goals to be achieved by the year 2000.

Jack

LOL Jack you're keeping me in stiches!! Care to cite any evidence? You do know what that is don't you? A bunch of websites say somethig is true doesn't constitute evidence.

[Jack White]

By inference, Colby says EVERYTHING ON THE INTERNET IS WORTHLESS.

If found by using Google, IT MUST BE WRONG!

Therefore, by inference, he also says all books are worthless, all articles

are worthless, all documentaries are worthless. Makes no difference who

wrote them, their qualifications, their research. They are all wrong.

According to Colby, the only true facts worth reading are OFFICIAL GOVT

PRONOUNCEMENTS such as the Warren Report or other big lies of his

heroes in the New World Order.

Raise your hand if you agree with him.

Jack

[Guest]

LOL Jack you're keeping me in stiches!! Care to cite any evidence? You do know what that is don't you? A bunch of websites say somethig is true doesn't constitute evidence.

I tend to agree with Mr Colby and offer up this little instructional page designed to help 15 year olds handle historical sources for those credulous fools who believe everything they read

Apologies by the way for the problems experienced on the forum today - no conspiracy just problems with the database

[Lee Forman]

At a minimum, it is my firm belief that Public Offices should never be held by, or open to, anyone known to be affiliated with a secret society - whose membership and charter are unknown and remain shrouded in secrecy, and which fail to clearly demonstrate that no conflict of interest exists. Many times we see debates here ending up with labels being thrown - largely surrounding the two [2] Political parties in the US - Republicans and Democrats.

The sheer fact that anyone belongs to such a secret society as 'Skull and Bones' makes him [or her?] unfit for public office in my opinion - let alone the highest position of authority in the US. The same would apply to anyone - Democrat or Republican. Or Republocrat or Demoplican. It doesn't matter what you want to call yourself. I need to know that you are accountable to the office to which you were elected, and won't be swayed or in any way influenced by something I don't know about, have no say in, or control over.

So, when I posted that article on the Parliament and Masons, it was because it was the first one I found. I remember reading about the concern of the impact on the number of Masons in Parliament - and couldn't find the exact article. Masons are another secret society. I don't know what it takes to become a member, I don't know what they believe, or practice. Much like the concern over Kennedy being Roman Catholic and a possible allegiance to the Vatican - doesn't the same apply? If an individual has a position of authority - an elected official, to whom does his or her allegiance first apply -- a higher ranking Mason, or the people of the United States and the office held? Since I don't know the answer, I have a large problem with Masons being in my Government. I would expect it to be logical that others would feel the same. But apparently many do not.

Frequency of repetitions - I always try to use this when sorting information. The frequency of repetitions of members of Masons and individuals connected to the JFK assassination is troubling. The frequency of repetitions of a number of secret societies and the JFK assassination is troubling.

Racist websites - I have no idea when a website is racist and when one isn't - unless it is obvious. Is this a 'racist' website?

http://freemasonrywatch.org/scotland_woo.html

The Scotsman

Masons out to woo MSPs

Thursday, 25th March 2004

HAMISH MACDONELL

THE Freemasons, one of Scotland’s most secretive organisations, is enticing new members by advertising in a magazine aimed at politicians.

The Grand Lodge of Antient Free and Accepted Masons of Scotland has put a notice in the latest edition of Holyrood, the Scottish Parliament magazine.

A spokesman for the Freemasons insisted the notice was not designed to promote recruitment and was merely done to promote the work of the organisation.

However, by setting out what the Freemasons do, naming famous former Freemasons and including a contact number and address, the notice does appear to be the next best thing to a recruitment advertisement.

Two years ago Tricia Marwick, the SNP MSP, called for all MSPs to register their membership of the organisation, to prevent a conflict of interest during their public duties.

Bob Cooper, curator of the library at Freemasons’ Hall, Edinburgh, said: "We don’t recruit.

"We are pointing out that we have a history we are very proud of and we would welcome people to contact us to find out more about what we do."

He added: "The magazine has a very strong focus on arts and culture. We are pointing out that Freemasons are part and parcel of Scottish history."

Freemasons have about 660 lodges in Scotland.

An unfortunate part of reading the 'fringe stuff' as I call it, is the frequency of nonsense and rubbish that is associated. Shapeshifters, aliens, the Book of Revelations, etc. So, I would agree, some sifting is required to find the diamonds in the rough. I am not clear on the documentation for some of the material that these researchers claim as fact - but at the same time, some is obvious. World Population has been an issue for quite sometime - great post by Mark Stapleton on that. I'm still curious to know why Mark Lane chose to throw in a blurb on that in his film Executive Action.

Just to state an opinion on the subject - I do not personally believe in the existence of 'extraterrestrials,' however I do believe in Government hoaxes. 'The Rare Earth' is an interesting read.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rare_Earth_hypothesis

Sunrise, Overcast, Paperclip, Blowback - programs designed primarily to prevent technology and human resources from falling into Stalin's hands. These projects had folks literally on the ground, standing ready as the Third Reich fell, 'liberating' and 'exploiting' technology from all over Europe. Hitler's scientists had created quite a few phenomenal pieces of genius - for small example,

'bacterial warfare, new gases, gliding bombs, aerial torpedoes, pilotless aircraft, long range guns and rockets, death rays, engine-stopping rays, magnetic mines.'

From Project Paperclip, Clarence Lasby, NY, Atheneum, 1971.

There was already a 'cultural phenomenon' at this time - with huge advances being made in science and technology - you can imagine what happened when a lot of the Third Reich research, and doctors, and experiments made it back to the US. And this doesn't even include the research and development being done by the Japanese, which also made it back to the US, [unit 731], etc. Ethics were forgotten. Experimentation on human beings was widespread. A vast number of projects were created using false fronts and outsourced 'plausible denial' MOP - and there is documentation on that.

Here's a small example:

The 'Green Run,' Oak Ridge, Tennessee and Hanford, Washinton - Air Force and Oak Ridge, 1945 - 1963?

Operation Crossroads - Bikini Islands - AEC - exposure to Nuclear Radiation

Aberdeen Proving Ground, MD - Shielding, Gamma Radiation, Ordnance Corps, Army Chemical & Biological Defense Command

Hood - Nevada, exposure to Nuclear Radiation - ?

Operation Buster-Jangle, Desert Rock, Nevada - flashblindness and protective clothing, AEC, Air Force & DOD

Operation Tumble-Snapper, Nevada, Flashblindness, AEC & DOD

? - Pitssburgh, CA - exposure to radiation, Camp Stoneman. 1958.

? Camp McCoy, Wisconsin, exposure to radiation, 1963

Body irradiation - MD Anderson Cancer Center, Houston, TX - Air Force - 1951 - 1956

Body irradiation - Baylor University - Houston, TX, - Air Force & Defense Atomic Support Agency [DASA] - 1952 - 1964

Body irradiation - Sloan Ketteringm NY - Army & DASA - 1954 - 1964

Body irradiation - US Naval Hospital, Bethesdam MD - Navy, 1960 - 1961

Body irradiation - University of Cincinnati College of Medicine, Cincinnati, OH, DASA, 1960 - 1972

Body irradiation - Oak Ridge, Tennesee, NASA - 1957 - 1974

Nasal irradiation - Baltimore Maryland, John's Hopkins Univ, 1948 - 1954

Irradiation of pregnant women - Vanderbuilt University, AEC, 1945 - 1949

Irradiation of infants, University of Nebraska College of Medicine, Nebraska, 1960

Irradiation of infants, University of Iowa, Iowa City, 1963.

Body irradiation, University of Rochester and Cornell University, 1963

Irradiation of pregnant women, US Air Force Acrtic Aeromedical Laboratory, Alaska, 1956 - 1957.

Irradiation of prisoners - Oregon and Washington, AEC, 1963 - 1973

Chemical exposure - Edgewood Arsenal, MD, Army Chemical Corps, 1955 - 1975.

Not to forget the Fluoride, LSD, the MK/ULTRA Mind Control experiments, etc.

Let's look at one individual - Fred Crisman. What do we know about him?

http://www.angelfire.com/empire/fireangel/THEI/UTS-2-12.html

The Crisman Conspiracy_ (Lilburne GA: IllumiNet Press,

1999), devoted both to the original 1947 Maury Island affair itself and

to Fred Lee Crisman's complex, curious, often turbulent double life as

an undercover agent and contentious public figure. In the 1960's and

until his death in 1975, according to Thomas, Crisman was locally

prominent in Washington state as a free-lance writer, ultra-conservative

radio commentator, clergyman, librarian, and controversial Tacoma

politician. He became a "bishop" in a "Universal Life Church,"

associating with many other right-wing activists calling themselves

"priests," "ministers," or "bishops" of small evangelical or "Old

Catholic" churches. He presented himself as a "preacher" and a "person

engaged in work to help the gypsies," according to Jim Garrison. [Kenn

Thomas, _Maury Island UFO _, pp. 95-96 (Universal Life Church bishop,

helping gypsies), 113-115 (Universal Life Church, other rightist

"ministers")]

The Maury Island UFO incident. Is Wikipedia a 'racist' website? Selected because it was handy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maury_Island_Incident

The Maury Island incident is said to be an early modern UFO encounter incident, which allegedly took place shortly after the sighting of the original flying saucers by Kenneth Arnold. It is also one of the earliest reported instances of an alleged encounter with so-called "Men in black". Opinions remain divided as to the case on whether it was genuine or a hoax.

The incident took place shortly after June 21, 1947. On that date, seaman Harold Dahl, out scavenging for drifting logs, claimed to have seen six UFOs near Maury Island (which is now a peninsula of Vashon Island, in Puget Sound, near Tacoma, Washington, United States). Dahl, his son, and their dog were on the boat. Dahl claimed to have taken a number of photographs of the UFOs, and reported that one UFO shed some type of hot slag on to his boat. The slag, he said, struck and killed his dog and injured his son.

The next morning, Dahl reported, a man arrived at his home and invited him to breakfast at a nearby diner. Dahl accepted the invitation. He described the man as imposing at over six feet tall and muscular, and wearing a black suit. The man drove a new 1947 Buick, and Dahl assumed he was a military or government representative.

While the two men ate, Dahl claimed the man told him details of the UFO sighting, though Dahl had not related his account publicly. The man also gave Dahl a nonspecific warning which Dahl took as a threat that his family might be harmed if he related details of the sighting.

Some confusion and debate over Dahl's statements have occurred. Dahl would later claim the UFO sighting was a hoax, but has also claimed the sighting was accurate, but he had claimed it was a hoax to avoid bringing harm to his family.

In spite of the threat Dahl had reported the incident to his immediate superior, Fred Crisman, who had long claimed to have experience with unusual phenomena (and who was later linked to the John F. Kennedy assassination)[1]. Crisman gathered more of the slag, then called in the press, who in turn called in Kenneth Arnold to investigate the incident.

Alfred K. Bender seized on Dahl's story, and printed it in his newsletter. In 1953, Bender claimed three men in black visited him, and warned him to stop his UFO research.

Arnold, realizing the story was beyond his capacity to investigate, called in the United States Army Air Corps, which dispatched two investigators. The investigators were largely unimpressed with Crisman and with his evidence, but agreed to take some of the slag with them for further inquiry.[citation needed] The plane carrying the two investigators and the UFO evidence crashed shortly after leaving Tacoma, killing both men.[citation needed] Capt. Edward Ruppelt, chief of Project Blue Book in the early 1950s, wrote that he was convinced that the entire sighting story was a hoax.

To some in the UFO community, the Maury Island Incident is still highly controversial, dismissed by many as a complete fabrication by the wildly imaginative and conspiracy-obsessed Crisman, while others think it may be among the most important encounters in modern times.[citation needed] Others speculate that the incident, although clearly a hoax, was employed by the US government to draw public attention away from claims hazardous waste from a breeder reactor located in nearby Hanford was being secretly and unlawfully dumped on Maury Island.

Jim Phelps has it that the mutated individuals that survived some of the original nuclear testing went on to continue to be used - launching them in weather balloons and exposing them to aerial blasts of radiation - for continued testing. He believes that one such weather balloon crashed, causing the whole Roswell episode. Now I can see someone calling his site racist - the information contained is still of value, and should not be cast aside, IMO. Here's one quote from his site that I find intriguing, particularly following the film 'The Constant Gardner.'

http://members.aol.com/doestar/jfk.html

They would act collectively to suppress the fact that illnesses were caused by varied chemical toxics, and then make money from the pharmacy and invasive medical methods used to treat the rising health epidemic.

The film never even addressed how Africa got the AIDs virus - only the concept of the Pharmaceuticals that were looking for subjects for experimentation and profits from a drug that could remedy the issue. And it was just a movie after all.

Now - let's assume that there are no other carbon based [or silicon] based intelligent life forms out there - and we're it. What really happened at Maury Island? What really happened at Roswell? What's the relationship between 'The Old Catholic Church,' 'The Universal Life Church' [to only name two] and US Intelligence? Who is giving the orders? If there aren't any little people from other planets visiting here - what are there UFOs that have been reported to have been seen by so many people? Seems more logical that Dahl was at the right place at the wrong time, and saw something he shouldn't have. Something with respect to technology 'exploited' from the German scientists, that we needed to keep under wraps as a 'National Security' deal, and couldn't have our enemies learning about during the competitive nature of the Cold War and the 'exploitation' of the knowledge seized following WWII.

But of course, the bigger picture - let's stay with Kennedy - is connecting the dots between these various secret societies, what relationship they had to Intelligence, who belonged to them and ultimately, who was calling the shots.

[Len Colby]

LOL I did what Jack suggested and Googled "The Global 2000 Report" it was not commissioned by the Illuminati but rather by President Carter and is hardly a secret document

It is widely available either for sale…

http://books.google.com/books?id=Sc5Foh6mXMIC&dq=%22%22The+Global+2000+Report+to+the+President+%22&ots=FT54gVDDeN&sig=oDlUE7Dlyq_bDS3ny0Mg8kAZ71k&prev=http://www.google.com/search%3Fsourceid%3Dnavclient%26ie%3DUTF-8%26rls%3DGGLG,GGLG:2005-32,GGLG:en%26q%3D%2522%2522The%2BGlobal%2B2000%2BReport%2Bto%2Bthe%2BPresident%2B%2522&sa=X&oi=print&ct=result&cd=2&q=""The%20Global%202000%20Report%20to%20the%20President%20"&pgis=1

…and from libraries.

http://worldcatlibraries.org/oclc/7806814&referer=brief_results

I suggest he buys or borrows it and cites the passages that say what he claims the report said.

It has been widely discussed

- John McCarthy a professor emeritus of computer science at U. Cal. Berkley summarized the report here: http://www-formal.stanford.edu/jmc/progress/brownsimon.html

- MIT published a book by a professor and a PhD candidate from the U. of Maryland based on the report. http://mitpress.mit.edu/catalog/item/default.asp?ttype=2&tid=10565

-There are numerous references to the report on academic websites http://www.google.com/search?as_q=&num=20&hl=en&rls=GGLG%2CGGLG%3A2005-32%2CGGLG%3Aen&btnG=Google+Search&as_epq=The+Global+2000+Report+to+the+President&as_oq=&as_eq=&lr=&as_ft=i&as_filetype=&as_qdr=all&as_nlo=&as_nhi=&as_occt=any&as_dt=i&as_sitesearch=.edu&as_rights=&safe=images

It does address problems of population growth but I have not seen any signs that it proposed what Jack claimed it did.

Racist websites - I have no idea when a website is racist and when one isn't - unless it is obvious. Is this a 'racist' website?

Is a site calling itself "jewwatch" obvious enough for you?

The Scotsman

Masons out to woo MSPs

Thursday, 25th March 2004

HAMISH MACDONELL

THE Freemasons, one of Scotland's most secretive organisations, is enticing new members by advertising in a magazine aimed at politicians.

Uuuum if it was truly so secretive it wouldn't be placing ads in magazines and if it was truly so powerful it would need to. I never said the Masons didn't exist offer me evidence that are some super powerful group part of a centuries old plot to control the world

However, by setting out what the Freemasons do, naming famous former Freemasons and including a contact number and address,

Secret organizations don't spell out what they do and who their former members were,

Freemasons have about 660 lodges in Scotland.

If the group was secret no one would know how many lodges they have.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rare_Earth_hypothesis , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maury_Island_Incident , http://members.aol.com/doestar/jfk.html

I'm glad that you're quoting authoritative sources!!!

I don't know what the rest of your post was meant to prove it went on about Operation Paperclip, LSD experiments and radiation exposure etc. Yes the US gov't did and does a lot of nasty stuff but this doesn't back the idea (it does even deserved to be called a theory) that the "Illuminati" exist.

Len

By inference, Colby says EVERYTHING ON THE INTERNET IS WORTHLESS.

If found by using Google, IT MUST BE WRONG!

Therefore, by inference, he also says all books are worthless, all articles

are worthless, all documentaries are worthless. Makes no difference who

wrote them, their qualifications, their research. They are all wrong.

According to Colby, the only true facts worth reading are OFFICIAL GOVT

PRONOUNCEMENTS such as the Warren Report or other big lies of his

heroes in the New World Order.

Raise your hand if you agree with him.

Jack

Jack that's not what I said. It seems like the only way you can advance your arguments is by lying, using misinformation and logical fallacies like your straw men above. My points were and I'll try and make it simple enough so that even YOU can understand were that:

1) Simple counts of how many Google hits gets doesn't prove anything

2) One has to evaluate how reliable a source is and if it can not document its claims those claims must be taken with a grain of salt.

3) The point was that the pages you cite normally don't cite recognized experts or verifiable documents.

Where did I say only "official government pronouncements are worth reading"? Just because somebody starts a webpage and makes a bunch of claims isn't evidence.

Len

Edited October 19, 2006 by Len Colby

[Lee Forman]

Len,

Any chance you might be encourage to use a normal font size?

1) Simple counts of how many Google hits gets doesn't prove anything

Agreed.

2) One has to evaluate how relable a source is and if it can not document its claims those claims must be taken with a grain of salt.

Agreed.

Where did I say only "official government pronoucements" are worth reading. Just because somebody starts a webpage and makes a bunch of claims isn't evidence.

Agreed.

The term 'Illuminati' is misleading, hence the humor implied in the name of the thread. It's the idea that interests me - and I believe there are some interesting threads that can be followed with respect to the JFK assassination.

The man that owns the plate glass window store in town is the one that was found to be hiring the underage kids to throw rocks through the windows of small businesses at night.

- lee

[Len Colby]

Len,

Any chance you might be encourage to use a normal font size?

1) Simple counts of how many Google hits gets doesn't prove anything

Agreed.

2) One has to evaluate how relable a source is and if it can not document its claims those claims must be taken with a grain of salt.

Agreed.

Where did I say only "official government pronoucements" are worth reading. Just because somebody starts a webpage and makes a bunch of claims isn't evidence.

Agreed.

The term 'Illuminati' is misleading, hence the humor implied in the name of the thread. It's the idea that interests me - and I believe there are some interesting threads that can be followed with respect to the JFK assassination.

The man that owns the plate glass window store in town is the one that was found to be hiring the underage kids to throw rocks through the windows of small businesses at night.

- lee

I'm glad that we agree on most points. Though you reference to the Illuminati was a joke (I thought you were serious) there unfortunately people who really believe in these things. Do some powerful people collude to screw over the rest of us and each other? I'm sure they do but I haven't seen any evidence of some sort of giant centuries old conspiracy involving secret organisattions to take over the world. Edited October 19, 2006 by Len Colby

[Lee Forman]

I'm glad that we agree on most points. Though you reference to the Illuminati was a joke (I thought you were serious) there unfortunately people who really believe in these things. To powerful people collude to screw over the rest of us I'm sure they do but I haven't sen any evidence of some sort of giant centuries old conspiracy involving secret organisattions.

I don't know that the 'term' works - it certainly has been shafted by Dan Brown to the point of lunacy. I don't know that I find it possible that such an organization goes back 'thousands of years' - however, there does appear to be something with respect to organizations, intelligence, elite, money, and secret societies - today, and in 1963. I don't know that they are all related - or that they worked with one another necessarily. That's the question.

Wiki has the Illuminati being formed originally in 1776 - then banned in 1784. What I continue to wonder about is the Gehlen organization, financial connections between the US, UK and the Third Reich [before, during and after], the Vatican and it's role in the ratlines, the links between religious societies and US intelligence, etc. I'd like to know where John Judge got some of his information.

http://www.anomalous-images.com/text/naznwo07.html

They are an extension of an international FASCIST network. NAZI SS men escaped punishment after the war with the help of 'US' intelligence [the Rockefellers and members of secret, Bavarian-based, lodges. - Wol.]. SPIES, SCIENTISTS and MILITARY MEN went around the world under the cover of the ODESSA, DIE SPINNE, and KAMARADENWORK groups [that were] SET UP TO SAVE NAZI WAR CRIMINALS. 300 NAZI SPIES UNDER GEN. REINHARD GEHLEN FORMED OUR CIA AND GERMAN BND. Hundreds of aerospace, and munitions experts formed our MILI- TARY INDUSTRIAL COMPLEX. To fund themselves and to maintain control abroad, they also recruited and used trained assassins, mercen- aries, provocateurs, and torturers. These people carried out hits, assas- sinations, paramilitary operations and terrorism, and continue to the present day. They are financed by the international traffick in drugs (esp. opium and cocaine), arms sales and taxes by the governments and military structures they control...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illuminati

A movement of freethinkers that were the most radical offshoot of The Enlightenment — whose adherents were given the name Illuminati (but who called themselves "Perfectibilists") — was founded on May 1, 1776, by Jesuit-taught Adam Weishaupt (d. 1830), who was the first lay professor of canon law. The group has also been called the Illuminati Order, the Order of the Illuminati, and the Bavarian Illuminati. In 1777, Karl Theodor, Elector Palatine, succeeded as ruler of Bavaria. He was a proponent of Enlightened Despotism and in 1784, his government banned all secret societies, including the Illuminati and the Freemasons.

- lee

[Guest]

What disturbs me most about the half baked conspiracy theories I find polluting this forum is their simple minded and profoundly anti-historical nature.

Worse still the googling around for "evidence" to back up the paranoid mindset - any "evidence" will do regardless of its quality or provenance.

[Sid Walker]

What disturbs me most about the half baked conspiracy theories I find polluting this forum is their simple minded and profoundly anti-historical nature.

Worse still the googling around for "evidence" to back up the paranoid mindset - any "evidence" will do regardless of its quality or provenance.

Hi Andy.

Without wishing to put you to too much trouble, could you define what you mean in this context by "anti-historical".

Edited October 19, 2006 by Sid Walker

[John Dolva]

Mark: "Overpopulation is shaping up as the biggest threat to the planet's survival."

I'm surprised that this has gone unchallenged.

The main problem with a large population is food. India and China proves it is possible to feed large populations. So that is NOT a problem.

Sweden during this time frame has had a static population. There's no eugenics in place there. Quite the contrary, having a family is very much supported through benefits. So eugenics is NOT a solution.

Where women have equal rights, opportunities and healthcare, nature takes its course and populations attain an equilibrium.

Higher living standards, respect for life, education, peace and freedom is the solution. This is a cost. Wealth and care needs to be redistributed to the third world, in time 'the problem' will naturally take care of itself.

This is not an attractive solution to the rulers of capital. It's a great mistake, great disservice to humanity to accept their analysis. It plays into the hand of supremacy and fascism.

The world is NOT overpopulated.

Edited October 19, 2006 by John Dolva

[Jack White]

What disturbs me most about the half baked conspiracy theories I find polluting this forum is their simple minded and profoundly anti-historical nature.

Worse still the googling around for "evidence" to back up the paranoid mindset - any "evidence" will do regardless of its quality or provenance.

Hi Andy.

Without wishing to put you to too much trouble, could you define what you mean in this context by "anti-historical".

Andy believes that HISTORY IS WRITTEN BY THE VICTORS, an ancient theory

widely in disrepute, because such "history" most often is false. Victors write

the history so it is favorable to their cause.

As an educator he is accustomed to teaching THE OFFICIAL STORY of things,

and not thinking for himself. I know many historians of this ilk. To question

official stories is to tempt rebuke and loss of face among colleagues and tenure

from schools. They are afraid to rock the boat. They might sink.

Jack

[Mark Stapleton]

Mark: "Overpopulation is shaping up as the biggest threat to the planet's survival."

I'm surprised that this has gone unchallenged.

The main problem with a large population is food. India and China proves it is possible to feed large populations. So that is NOT a problem.

Garbage. Overpopulation refers to the situation where a given environment cannot sustain the existing population. Focussing solely on food is a misreading of the problem. People require clean air, water, food, energy, employment, healthcare, sanitation, waste disposal, money, transportation etc, etc.

Sweden during this time frame has had a static population. There's no eugenics in place there. Quite the contrary, having a family is very much supported through benefits. So eugenics is NOT a solution.

Where women have equal rights, opportunities and healthcare, nature takes its course and populations attain an equilibrium.

If I knew what you are talking about I would respond but I don't, so I won't

Higher living standards, respect for life, education, peace and freedom is the solution. This is a cost. Wealth and care needs to be redistributed to the third world, in time 'the problem' will naturally take care of itself.

This is not an attractive solution to the rulers of capital. It's a great mistake, great disservice to humanity to accept their analysis. It plays into the hand of supremacy and fascism.

Fine sentiments indeed, but it's a little more complicated than that. The planet is running out of water, arable land is decreasing (desertification claims an additional 12000 square kilometres each year), polar ice caps are rapidly melting, CO2 levels and global temperatures are rising rapidly and air quality declining. Sea levels are rising. Species are becoming extinct at the highest rate in the history of the planet. Scientists are also very concerned about vectors--changing climate conditions are resulting in more mosquito borne diseases than ever before. The rising water table is being blamed for this.

All these factors can be sheeted home--either fully or partially--to human overpopulation. Humans are the only inhabitants of the planet who destroy the environment as they go. We've reached the limits of the planet's carrying capacity, IMO.

You've got the supremacy and fascism theme on the brain, IMO. Don't associate me with this, please. The US is the largest contributor to global warming at 30.3% so I think the changes should start there. The US Govt, however, merely pays lip service to alternative, sustainable energy sources, and continues to burn over 20 million barrels of oil a day. It has also been responsible for damaging the environments of other countries in its pursuit of resources. China and India plan to construct another 1000 coal burning plants in the coming year to fuel their increasing need for energy. Burning brown coal has made the air quality in large parts of China barely breathable. This exponential growth in demand for energy is due to the rapid economic expansion of these countries. The economic paridigm dictates that an economy must grow or stagnate. Economic growth requires more consumers, more people.

The world is NOT overpopulated.

Yes it is. The planet itself is saying so.