Jump to content
The Education Forum

Forensically speaking


Recommended Posts

Excluding midgets hiding in the trunk of the Presidential Limo and shooting upwards!

The only point at which a bullet could strike JFK in the edge of the hairline, tunnel upward through the soft flesh at the base of the neck, and thereafter strike the skull in the EOP region, is well after the Z313 head shot.

Due to the elongated nature of the entry wound through the skull, as found and measured by the autopsy surgeons, JFK's head had to be leaned well forward at the time/point of impact of this shot.

Even Dr. Finck knew this one, just as does anyone who understands the basic principals of elongation in wound entry.

Therefore, there is actually very little difficult in recognition that the entry of this shot into the head of JFK occurred well after the Z313 shot.

Now, this of course does not rule out "Multiple Assassin" potential from the rear, and to date, the only other person who has resolved (own his own) that the third/last/final shot was in fact after Z313, has not overcome his CT mentality to recognize that the 1.9 seconds (approximate) time lapse in the Z-film is not sufficient evidence to support the second assassin theory.

The "short time lapse/Z-fram exposure" is merely another of those "slight" sleight-of-hand maneuvers which was intended to prevent us from looking in the vicinity of Mr. Altgens to find evidence of a third last final shot.

Keep up the work David, you are certainly on the correct pathway now, and perhaps you will be able to ultimately explain how a slowing down vehicle appears to maintain a speed of approximately 11mph when in fact it almost came to a complete stop.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest Mark Valenti

But once JFK slumps over to his left side, the angle from which a bullet could enter and do the damage you detail would change substantially. His head is basically pointing sideways - how could a final missle enter from that trajectory?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

But once JFK slumps over to his left side, the angle from which a bullet could enter and do the damage you detail would change substantially. His head is basically pointing sideways - how could a final missle enter from that trajectory?

That's a good point, Mark, particularly as, according to Finck, the only wounds expert to inspect the wound, the wound was "transversal," heading right to left across the back of the skull. If this wound were created with Kennedy leaning sharply to his left, it would indicate the bullet traveled sharply downwards. I think Tom is absolutely correct in that the third loud sound heard by most was fired after 313, but I'm skeptical this shot hit anything.

Edited by Pat Speer
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest Mark Valenti
If this wound were created with Kennedy leaning sharply to his left, it would indicate the bullet traveled sharply downwards.

Black helicopters! :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

But once JFK slumps over to his left side, the angle from which a bullet could enter and do the damage you detail would change substantially. His head is basically pointing sideways - how could a final missle enter from that trajectory?

That's a good point, Mark, particularly as, according to Finck, the only wounds expert to inspect the wound, the wound was "transversal," heading right to left across the back of the skull. If this wound were created with Kennedy leaning sharply to his left, it would indicate the bullet traveled sharply downwards. I think Tom is absolutely correct in that the third loud sound heard by most was fired after 313, but I'm skeptical this shot hit anything.

http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk...Vol17_0036a.htm

Upwards, right to left.

can also be downwards,slightly right to left, depending upon the position of the head at the point and time of impact.

I do believe that such an impact could have easily blown a 3-inch piece of the frontal bone off, and up under Nellie Connally's seat, at the same time that it was blowing blood and cerebral tissue all over the back of her seat, in between the jump seats, all over the back of JBC's coat, as well as portions of it flying out towards Mr. Altgens.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

But once JFK slumps over to his left side, the angle from which a bullet could enter and do the damage you detail would change substantially. His head is basically pointing sideways - how could a final missle enter from that trajectory?

That's a good point, Mark, particularly as, according to Finck, the only wounds expert to inspect the wound, the wound was "transversal," heading right to left across the back of the skull. If this wound were created with Kennedy leaning sharply to his left, it would indicate the bullet traveled sharply downwards. I think Tom is absolutely correct in that the third loud sound heard by most was fired after 313, but I'm skeptical this shot hit anything.

http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk...Vol17_0036a.htm

Upwards, right to left.

can also be downwards,slightly right to left, depending upon the position of the head at the point and time of impact.

I do believe that such an impact could have easily blown a 3-inch piece of the frontal bone off, and up under Nellie Connally's seat, at the same time that it was blowing blood and cerebral tissue all over the back of her seat, in between the jump seats, all over the back of JBC's coat, as well as portions of it flying out towards Mr. Altgens.

However, I also recognize the fact that were JFK's head laying forward with his chin almost to his chest and his face turned slightly to the right, and he was leaning leftwards, that his coat (collar) would be directly in the path of any bullet which struck him in the vicinity of the edge of the hairline at the base of the neck.

As well as the fact that any bullet penetrating the coat would have to do so on the same angular tangent which caused the projectile to ultimate pass upwards through the fleshy part of the neck and strike in the vicinity of the EOP.

http://www.assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z338.jpg

Mr. SPECTER - Mr. Chief Justice, may it please the Commission, I would like to have identified for the record three articles on which I have placed Commission Exhibits Nos. 393 being the coat worn by the President, 394 being the shirt, and 395 being the President's tie, and at this time move for their admission into evidence.

Mr. SPECTER - How about the upper one of the collar you have described, does that go all the way through?

Commander HUMES - Yes, sir; it goes all the way through. It is not--wait a minute, excuse me it is not so clearly a puncture wound as the one below.

Mr. SPECTER - Does the upper one go all the way through in the same course?

Commander HUMES - No.

Mr. SPECTER - Through the inner side as it went through the outer side?

Commander HUMES - No, in an irregular fashion.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

...

Keep up the work David, you are certainly on the correct pathway now, and perhaps you will be able to ultimately explain how a slowing down vehicle appears to maintain a speed of approximately 11mph when in fact it almost came to a complete stop.

Yeah, too many witnesses said it came to a stop, and at least one photo supports this. (The Altgens one where at least one door of the white SS limo was open. That's the car looking out for LBJ of course; the SS wouldn't lift a finger to help President Kennedy... 'Cept for Clint Hill who didn't get the memo.) This picture:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ike_Altgens

I'm becoming convinced that the Zapruder film was tampered with (I'm sure that's not a bombshell to you veterans, but I haven't been researching this for very long). Many frames were likely removed resulting in motions that are impossibly fast. So, doesn't that make it hard to do precise evaluations of gunshots and body motions? I think the film is valuable for getting the overall picture, but unreliable for continuity.

Plus, Jim Garrison said in "On the Trail of the Assassins" that he thought exploding bullet(s) were used, and I have to agree based on...the exploding head of the President. (God I hate those bastards that killed him.) Does that make it harder to determine trajectory?

Do others agree/disagree with the conclusion that the killing shot (from the front) was frangible?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It has been a while since I looked into the "limo slowing" vs. "limo stopping" vs. "motorcade stopping" witness testimony, so I don't remember the percentages exactly.

However, placing the actual number aside for a moment and going on semantics, it would be possible for the limo to "slow" and the motorcade to stop (as a result of the accordion effect, frequently seen in traffic). I have often pondered if this is what some people observed.

However, there are a fairly large number of people who specified the limo in their witness accounts. None of the extant films show a near-stop condition from the limo, however. If frame-decimation occurred in the z-film, it had to occur in the others, too, and now we're down the alteration rabbit-hole (a passionate topic on this forum, and one which I prefer to avoid).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

...

Keep up the work David, you are certainly on the correct pathway now, and perhaps you will be able to ultimately explain how a slowing down vehicle appears to maintain a speed of approximately 11mph when in fact it almost came to a complete stop.

Yeah, too many witnesses said it came to a stop, and at least one photo supports this. (The Altgens one where at least one door of the white SS limo was open. That's the car looking out for LBJ of course; the SS wouldn't lift a finger to help President Kennedy... 'Cept for Clint Hill who didn't get the memo.) This picture:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ike_Altgens

I'm becoming convinced that the Zapruder film was tampered with (I'm sure that's not a bombshell to you veterans, but I haven't been researching this for very long). Many frames were likely removed resulting in motions that are impossibly fast. So, doesn't that make it hard to do precise evaluations of gunshots and body motions? I think the film is valuable for getting the overall picture, but unreliable for continuity.

Plus, Jim Garrison said in "On the Trail of the Assassins" that he thought exploding bullet(s) were used, and I have to agree based on...the exploding head of the President. (God I hate those bastards that killed him.) Does that make it harder to determine trajectory?

Do others agree/disagree with the conclusion that the killing shot (from the front) was frangible?

Do others agree/disagree with the conclusion that the killing shot (from the front) was frangible?

Under the assumption that you reference the shot at Z313, it was neither from the front, nor was it a "frangible" bullet.

The bullet was cut to pieces and fragmened due to the manner in which it encountered the bone of the skull as it passed through the head of JFK.

Due to the manner in which the nose of the bullet split, it is highly possible that the copper jacket had been "sliced", thus resulting in a virtually immediate tearing apart of the bullet nose on impact.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Do others agree/disagree with the conclusion that the killing shot (from the front) was frangible?

Under the assumption that you reference the shot at Z313, it was neither from the front, nor was it a "frangible" bullet.

The bullet was cut to pieces and fragmened due to the manner in which it encountered the bone of the skull as it passed through the head of JFK.

Due to the manner in which the nose of the bullet split, it is highly possible that the copper jacket had been "sliced", thus resulting in a virtually immediate tearing apart of the bullet nose on impact.

>Under the assumption that you reference the shot at Z313, it was neither from the front...

Well I tried to slip that by you...

Yes, Z313.

>nor was it a "frangible" bullet.

How can you be so sure? Can you tell from pictures and film of the shot? How would a frangible bullet differ from what we've seen?

Thanks.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Do others agree/disagree with the conclusion that the killing shot (from the front) was frangible?

Under the assumption that you reference the shot at Z313, it was neither from the front, nor was it a "frangible" bullet.

The bullet was cut to pieces and fragmened due to the manner in which it encountered the bone of the skull as it passed through the head of JFK.

Due to the manner in which the nose of the bullet split, it is highly possible that the copper jacket had been "sliced", thus resulting in a virtually immediate tearing apart of the bullet nose on impact.

>Under the assumption that you reference the shot at Z313, it was neither from the front...

Well I tried to slip that by you...

Yes, Z313.

>nor was it a "frangible" bullet.

How can you be so sure? Can you tell from pictures and film of the shot? How would a frangible bullet differ from what we've seen?

Thanks.

By a complete and thorough examination of the known/remaining fragments which were found inside the Presidential Limo.

Thereafter, if one takes the time to evaluate the mechanics of how this bullet became deformed and cut up into it's various pieces, it begins to answer many of the questions that continue to be asked.

Do bullets which strike the head, under normal conditions, fragment such as this?-----Absolutely not!

However, the tangential strike across the top of the head was not a "normal strike", and the exit most assuredly was not normal.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Do others agree/disagree with the conclusion that the killing shot (from the front) was frangible?

Under the assumption that you reference the shot at Z313, it was neither from the front, nor was it a "frangible" bullet.

The bullet was cut to pieces and fragmened due to the manner in which it encountered the bone of the skull as it passed through the head of JFK.

Due to the manner in which the nose of the bullet split, it is highly possible that the copper jacket had been "sliced", thus resulting in a virtually immediate tearing apart of the bullet nose on impact.

>Under the assumption that you reference the shot at Z313, it was neither from the front...

Well I tried to slip that by you...

Yes, Z313.

>nor was it a "frangible" bullet.

How can you be so sure? Can you tell from pictures and film of the shot? How would a frangible bullet differ from what we've seen?

Thanks.

By a complete and thorough examination of the known/remaining fragments which were found inside the Presidential Limo.

Thereafter, if one takes the time to evaluate the mechanics of how this bullet became deformed and cut up into it's various pieces, it begins to answer many of the questions that continue to be asked.

Do bullets which strike the head, under normal conditions, fragment such as this?-----Absolutely not!

However, the tangential strike across the top of the head was not a "normal strike", and the exit most assuredly was not normal.

http://www.jfklancer.com/photos/Autopsy_photos/X_AUT_2.JPG

There are those who claim some expertise in this matter, who will state that they can look at the autopsy X-Rays of JFK's head and thereafter determine such garbage as "mercury bullets" having been utilized.

1. Rest assured that one CAN NOT look at an X-ray and determine the physical composition of that material found within, which create the opaque/white areas within the X-ray.

2. The autopsy surgeons, in front of all of those other persons present, found/located/and removed fragments of lead from the brain of JFK.

So, unless one is susceptable to believe body kidnappings and giant conspiracies which encompass dozens of persons from different agencies, then one must accept the given fact that lead fragments were removed from the head/brain of JFK during the autopsy.

3. The distribution of lead fragments throughout the brain of JFK indicates an ever increasing amount of particle distribution, from the rear----forward.

4. Examination of a piece of bone from the frontal lobe area demonstrated the "beveling" as well as the embedded metal residue where the projectile began it's exit from the skull, as it passed from rear to forward.

5. The remains of the fragmented bullet were immediately found within the Presidential Limousine, therefore, and again, unless one believes in all of this "conspiracy" network that those who were behind it had the foresight as well as capability to plant evidence into the Presidential Limousine, then one must accept that the portions of the WCC 6.5mm Carcano bullet that were found in the frontal area of the Presidential Limousine, came from the fragmented bullet which struck him in the head, striking from the rear.

6. Although there are ITALIAN 6.5mm Carcano rounds which contained soft-nose tips, WCC, as far as is known, produced absolutely no such ammunition.

7. Due to the nose portion of the copper jacket to the bullet (which struck at Z313) being missing, it is impossible to determine if some prior "slicing" to the copper jacket aided in this bullet's rapid deformation upon impact & exit from the skull.

http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk...Vol17_0141b.htm

However, based on the manner in which the lead core of the bullet nose began to split, with some very definitive straight tears along three almost equal divisions, it would be extremely unusual for this to occur without some prior weakening of the supporting copper jacket.

Which happens to be fully indicative of a "three-way" equal slice along the copper jacket of the bullet nose.

Those of us who are familiar with the means to avoid the intent of the rules regarding FMJ bullets in warfare, soon found the advantage of "slicing" the copper jacket at the nose of the bullet. And although most of us "X'ed" the nose, there is little to prevent one from performing a three-way slice as well.

I would also state that there are other photo's of CE567 which more clearly demonstrate the three divisions of the lead core of the bullet nose, and which more clearly demonstrate this anomaly.

Just can not locate where my photo's are "lost" at right now.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

>nor was it a "frangible" bullet.

How can you be so sure? Can you tell from pictures and film of the shot? How would a frangible bullet differ from what we've seen?

Thanks.

By a complete and thorough examination of the known/remaining fragments which were found inside the Presidential Limo.

Thereafter, if one takes the time to evaluate the mechanics of how this bullet became deformed and cut up into it's various pieces, it begins to answer many of the questions that continue to be asked.

Do bullets which strike the head, under normal conditions, fragment such as this?-----Absolutely not!

However, the tangential strike across the top of the head was not a "normal strike", and the exit most assuredly was not normal.

http://www.jfklancer.com/photos/Autopsy_photos/X_AUT_2.JPG

There are those who claim some expertise in this matter, who will state that they can look at the autopsy X-Rays of JFK's head and thereafter determine such garbage as "mercury bullets" having been utilized.

1. Rest assured that one CAN NOT look at an X-ray and determine the physical composition of that material found within, which create the opaque/white areas within the X-ray.

2. The autopsy surgeons, in front of all of those other persons present, found/located/and removed fragments of lead from the brain of JFK.

So, unless one is susceptable to believe body kidnappings and giant conspiracies which encompass dozens of persons from different agencies, then one must accept the given fact that lead fragments were removed from the head/brain of JFK during the autopsy.

Well, whereas I'm not "susceptable" to the lone nut theory or the magic bullet theory, I am susceptable to logic. And given that President Kennedy's wounds at Bethesda were dramatically different from the wounds described by doctors in Parkland, it seems clear that his body was...susceptable to post-mortem alteration.

For example, a scalpal was obviously used to cut a triangle near his forhead, presumably to hide the entrance wound in that area, since it was on the opposite side from the designated patsy.

Given the clear post-mortem surgery, and the fact that many have said that the x-rays could not have been JFK's, I don't know how valid an autopsy at Bethesda could be.

I understand what you're saying about the inability to detect mercury in an x-ray. It would have been preferable if the use of mercury bullets could have been confirmed or debunked by exhuming JFK's body. Though Joe West tried to do exactly that and died a mysterious death shortly after winning a court order to exhume. The tendency for investigators to die right as they're collecting evidence has made it hard to collect evidence.

3. The distribution of lead fragments throughout the brain of JFK indicates an ever increasing amount of particle distribution, from the rear----forward.

4. Examination of a piece of bone from the frontal lobe area demonstrated the "beveling" as well as the embedded metal residue where the projectile began it's exit from the skull, as it passed from rear to forward.

5. The remains of the fragmented bullet were immediately found within the Presidential Limousine, therefore, and again, unless one believes in all of this "conspiracy" network that those who were behind it had the foresight as well as capability to plant evidence into the Presidential Limousine, then one must accept that the portions of the WCC 6.5mm Carcano bullet that were found in the frontal area of the Presidential Limousine, came from the fragmented bullet which struck him in the head, striking from the rear.

6. Although there are ITALIAN 6.5mm Carcano rounds which contained soft-nose tips, WCC, as far as is known, produced absolutely no such ammunition.

7. Due to the nose portion of the copper jacket to the bullet (which struck at Z313) being missing, it is impossible to determine if some prior "slicing" to the copper jacket aided in this bullet's rapid deformation upon impact & exit from the skull.

http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk...Vol17_0141b.htm

However, based on the manner in which the lead core of the bullet nose began to split, with some very definitive straight tears along three almost equal divisions, it would be extremely unusual for this to occur without some prior weakening of the supporting copper jacket.

Which happens to be fully indicative of a "three-way" equal slice along the copper jacket of the bullet nose.

Those of us who are familiar with the means to avoid the intent of the rules regarding FMJ bullets in warfare, soon found the advantage of "slicing" the copper jacket at the nose of the bullet. And although most of us "X'ed" the nose, there is little to prevent one from performing a three-way slice as well.

I would also state that there are other photo's of CE567 which more clearly demonstrate the three divisions of the lead core of the bullet nose, and which more clearly demonstrate this anomaly.

Just can not locate where my photo's are "lost" at right now.

Do you think it's possible that two bullets collided in the President's head? If two bullets collided would they explode and cause the kind of head damage we've seen in photos and the Zapruder film?

Thanks.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

>nor was it a "frangible" bullet.

How can you be so sure? Can you tell from pictures and film of the shot? How would a frangible bullet differ from what we've seen?

Thanks.

By a complete and thorough examination of the known/remaining fragments which were found inside the Presidential Limo.

Thereafter, if one takes the time to evaluate the mechanics of how this bullet became deformed and cut up into it's various pieces, it begins to answer many of the questions that continue to be asked.

Do bullets which strike the head, under normal conditions, fragment such as this?-----Absolutely not!

However, the tangential strike across the top of the head was not a "normal strike", and the exit most assuredly was not normal.

http://www.jfklancer.com/photos/Autopsy_photos/X_AUT_2.JPG

There are those who claim some expertise in this matter, who will state that they can look at the autopsy X-Rays of JFK's head and thereafter determine such garbage as "mercury bullets" having been utilized.

1. Rest assured that one CAN NOT look at an X-ray and determine the physical composition of that material found within, which create the opaque/white areas within the X-ray.

2. The autopsy surgeons, in front of all of those other persons present, found/located/and removed fragments of lead from the brain of JFK.

So, unless one is susceptable to believe body kidnappings and giant conspiracies which encompass dozens of persons from different agencies, then one must accept the given fact that lead fragments were removed from the head/brain of JFK during the autopsy.

Well, whereas I'm not "susceptable" to the lone nut theory or the magic bullet theory, I am susceptable to logic. And given that President Kennedy's wounds at Bethesda were dramatically different from the wounds described by doctors in Parkland, it seems clear that his body was...susceptable to post-mortem alteration.

For example, a scalpal was obviously used to cut a triangle near his forhead, presumably to hide the entrance wound in that area, since it was on the opposite side from the designated patsy.

Given the clear post-mortem surgery, and the fact that many have said that the x-rays could not have been JFK's, I don't know how valid an autopsy at Bethesda could be.

I understand what you're saying about the inability to detect mercury in an x-ray. It would have been preferable if the use of mercury bullets could have been confirmed or debunked by exhuming JFK's body. Though Joe West tried to do exactly that and died a mysterious death shortly after winning a court order to exhume. The tendency for investigators to die right as they're collecting evidence has made it hard to collect evidence.

3. The distribution of lead fragments throughout the brain of JFK indicates an ever increasing amount of particle distribution, from the rear----forward.

4. Examination of a piece of bone from the frontal lobe area demonstrated the "beveling" as well as the embedded metal residue where the projectile began it's exit from the skull, as it passed from rear to forward.

5. The remains of the fragmented bullet were immediately found within the Presidential Limousine, therefore, and again, unless one believes in all of this "conspiracy" network that those who were behind it had the foresight as well as capability to plant evidence into the Presidential Limousine, then one must accept that the portions of the WCC 6.5mm Carcano bullet that were found in the frontal area of the Presidential Limousine, came from the fragmented bullet which struck him in the head, striking from the rear.

6. Although there are ITALIAN 6.5mm Carcano rounds which contained soft-nose tips, WCC, as far as is known, produced absolutely no such ammunition.

7. Due to the nose portion of the copper jacket to the bullet (which struck at Z313) being missing, it is impossible to determine if some prior "slicing" to the copper jacket aided in this bullet's rapid deformation upon impact & exit from the skull.

http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk...Vol17_0141b.htm

However, based on the manner in which the lead core of the bullet nose began to split, with some very definitive straight tears along three almost equal divisions, it would be extremely unusual for this to occur without some prior weakening of the supporting copper jacket.

Which happens to be fully indicative of a "three-way" equal slice along the copper jacket of the bullet nose.

Those of us who are familiar with the means to avoid the intent of the rules regarding FMJ bullets in warfare, soon found the advantage of "slicing" the copper jacket at the nose of the bullet. And although most of us "X'ed" the nose, there is little to prevent one from performing a three-way slice as well.

I would also state that there are other photo's of CE567 which more clearly demonstrate the three divisions of the lead core of the bullet nose, and which more clearly demonstrate this anomaly.

Just can not locate where my photo's are "lost" at right now.

Do you think it's possible that two bullets collided in the President's head? If two bullets collided would they explode and cause the kind of head damage we've seen in photos and the Zapruder film?

Thanks.

With all due respect!

I consider it a complete waste of time to debate forensic; ballistic; pathological; and physical fact with someone who has apparantly studied none of the subject matter, has never discussed the subject matter with known and recognized experts, and is lost in the rabbit hole labeled "Body Kidnapping & wound alteration".

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Please sign in to comment

You will be able to leave a comment after signing in



Sign In Now
 Share

×
×
  • Create New...