The Illuminati, or just business as usual?

[Guest Stephen Turner]

As a young Socialist (many years ago) I saw first hand the effects of "the Class war" as Marx termed the eternal battle for resouces, with those at the top of the pile ensuring two things, 1, they recieved FAR more than their fair share of these resources, and 2, That come hell, or high water they remained at the top.

This battle is thousands of years old, ever since Humans could produce a surplace to immediate needs somebody has been stealing it, and using it to butress their positions, produce standing armies to guard against insurection, using their influence to buy power, and subverting any attempt at true Democracy, let alone equality.

All of the above is no secret, at least to those who understand the way the World works. No need for massive secret societys, the protocols of the elders of Zion, the Illuminati, knights templers, bilderburgers, Priory of scion, or men in secret underground bunkers stroking white cats. JUST BUSINESS AS USUAL FOR THE RICH, AND POWERFUL.

[John Geraghty]

Well said indeed Stephen.

As it happens I have just this minute finished an essay on Marx for College. I have been reading a lot more on Marx lately, excellent stuff. I picked the Marx essay as he had always intrigued me and I hadn't done enough independent reading, so I forced myself to do it!

People feel the need to attribute a bogeyman that they can't see to all of the worlds problems. Its a class thing! It always has and thats why you have the continuity of political power held from above. To get elected you need money and there are two ways to get it, either come from the ruling class or ask themnicely to fund you. Either way your a poodle, Johns thread on Murdoch and Blair says it all.

John

[Guest]

As a young Socialist (many years ago) I saw first hand the effects of "the Class war" as Marx termed the eternal battle for resouces, with those at the top of the pile ensuring two things, 1, they recieved FAR more than their fair share of these resources, and 2, That come hell, or high water they remained at the top.

This battle is thousands of years old, ever since Humans could produce a surplace to immediate needs somebody has been stealing it, and using it to butress their positions, produce standing armies to guard against insurection, using their influence to buy power, and subverting any attempt at true Democracy, let alone equality.

All of the above is no secret, at least to those who understand the way the World works. No need for massive secret societys, the protocols of the elders of Zion, the Illuminati, knights templers, bilderburgers, Priory of scion, or men in secret underground bunkers stroking white cats. JUST BUSINESS AS USUAL FOR THE RICH, AND POWERFUL.

Quite so.

Refreshing is it not to have a conspiracy theory based on the objective relations of production rather than some mad and disturbing partial prejudice?

[Jack White]

Well said indeed Stephen.

As it happens I have just this minute finished an essay on Marx for College. I have been reading a lot more on Marx lately, excellent stuff. I picked the Marx essay as he had always intrigued me and I hadn't done enough independent reading, so I forced myself to do it!

People feel the need to attribute a bogeyman that they can't see to all of the worlds problems. Its a class thing! It always has and thats why you have the continuity of political power held from above. To get elected you need money and there are two ways to get it, either come from the ruling class or ask themnicely to fund you. Either way your a poodle, Johns thread on Murdoch and Blair says it all.

John

But John...there ARE some bogeymen, and there are agreements among

evildoers that are properly called conspiricies.

Jails are full of the ones who get caught. Problem is that the rich and

powerful either don't get caught or are not prosecuted. The Enron scandal

shows that sometimes the even the rich and well-connected get caught.

Far from being kooks, most conspiracy researchers have only the altrustic

motive of shining lights down the ratholes of evil. My only motive is to get

history books rewritten to reflect TRUTH instead of fiction. I would like to

see evil doers brought to justice, but that is not likely. But HISTORY SHOULD

NOT PERPETUTATE MYTHS AND COVER STORIES.

Jack

[Guest Stephen Turner]

My motive for starting this thread was my growing unease at the nature of some of the debates taking place here, and their barely conceiled anti-semetic bile. It is also apparant, that some members believe that shadowy groups lurk behind every historical twist and turn, their hidden hand responsible for every evil that has beset Humanity since we crawled from the primevel soup. For example, we are asked to believe that the devilish Neo-Cons who planned, and carried out the seamless ballet of 911, were incapable of planting a few WMDs in Iraq to back-up their hopelessly inept evidence of Saddams future intentions towards the West, let alone forsee the anarchy that has resulted as a consiquence of their actions. Always apply occams razor.

[Guest]

My motive for starting this thread was my growing unease at the nature of some of the debates taking place here, and their barely conceiled anti-semetic bile. It is also apparant, that some members believe that shadowy groups lurk behind every historical twist and turn, their hidden hand responsible for every evil that has beset Humanity since we crawled from the primevel soup. For example, we are asked to believe that the devilish Neo-Cons who planned, and carried out the seamless ballet of 911, were incapable of planting a few WMDs in Iraq to back-up their hopelessly inept evidence of Saddams future intentions towards the West, let alone forsee the anarchy that has resulted as a consiquence of their actions. Always apply occams razor.

I agree. And if I could just add that trying to tackle the anti semites and deniers is a bit like trying to nail a piece of jelly to the wall. They have no respect for academic convention or for historical process.

Any piece of rabid nonsense googleable will do as "evidence" so long as it fits their peculiar and irrational prejudices.

The Marxian conception of history suggested by Stephen here is at least a refreshing and scientific change - reading linked below for the educational advancement of our loonies

http://www.worldsocialism.org/spgb/education/mchisted.html

[Guest John Gillespie]

My motive for starting this thread was my growing unease at the nature of some of the debates taking place here, and their barely conceiled anti-semetic bile. It is also apparant, that some members believe that shadowy groups lurk behind every historical twist and turn, their hidden hand responsible for every evil that has beset Humanity since we crawled from the primevel soup. For example, we are asked to believe that the devilish Neo-Cons who planned, and carried out the seamless ballet of 911, were incapable of planting a few WMDs in Iraq to back-up their hopelessly inept evidence of Saddams future intentions towards the West, let alone forsee the anarchy that has resulted as a consiquence of their actions. Always apply occams razor.

___________________________________________

"Always apply occams razor.'

That's a rant but I'm wanting more. A caveat: never say 'never' and never say 'always' in these contexts.

Nonetheless, there is much substance to the above and it was thought provoking to read it and your earlier item as well.

JG

Edited October 26, 2006 by John Gillespie

[Guest Stephen Turner]

My motive for starting this thread was my growing unease at the nature of some of the debates taking place here, and their barely conceiled anti-semetic bile. It is also apparant, that some members believe that shadowy groups lurk behind every historical twist and turn, their hidden hand responsible for every evil that has beset Humanity since we crawled from the primevel soup. For example, we are asked to believe that the devilish Neo-Cons who planned, and carried out the seamless ballet of 911, were incapable of planting a few WMDs in Iraq to back-up their hopelessly inept evidence of Saddams future intentions towards the West, let alone forsee the anarchy that has resulted as a consiquence of their actions. Always apply occams razor.

___________________________________________

"Always apply occams razor.'

That's a rant but I'm wanting more. A caveat: never say 'never' and never say 'always' in these contexts.

Nonetheless, there is much substance to the above and it was thought provoking to read it and your earlier item as well.

JG

JG, how are you. agreed, never say never, but conspiracy appears to be the only consideration, and conclusion of some who post here. I am simply asking for a more realistic application of available evidence.

Regards, Steve.

[Guest John Gillespie]

My motive for starting this thread was my growing unease at the nature of some of the debates taking place here, and their barely conceiled anti-semetic bile. It is also apparant, that some members believe that shadowy groups lurk behind every historical twist and turn, their hidden hand responsible for every evil that has beset Humanity since we crawled from the primevel soup. For example, we are asked to believe that the devilish Neo-Cons who planned, and carried out the seamless ballet of 911, were incapable of planting a few WMDs in Iraq to back-up their hopelessly inept evidence of Saddams future intentions towards the West, let alone forsee the anarchy that has resulted as a consiquence of their actions. Always apply occams razor.

I agree. And if I could just add that trying to tackle the anti semites and deniers is a bit like trying to nail a piece of jelly to the wall. They have no respect for academic convention or for historical process.

Any piece of rabid nonsense googleable will do as "evidence" so long as it fits their peculiar and irrational prejudices.

The Marxian conception of history suggested by Stephen here is at least a refreshing and scientific change - reading linked below for the educational advancement of our loonies

http://www.worldsocialism.org/spgb/education/mchisted.html

_____________________________

"Any piece of rabid nonsense googleable will do as "evidence" so long as it fits their peculiar and irrational prejudices."

That certainly is valid - it would decimate membership here if those practices were prohibited - but congratulations on becoming the thing you hate. The same applies to dashing off retorts via quick web links, n'est ce pas? I suspect you found that one on...Google!

And, oh yes, let us never violate the sanctity of academic convention or historical process! Now, those of you who don't abide by Mr. Walker's fulmination, line up with the rest of those anti-Semites and loonies.

JG

[Guest]

My motive for starting this thread was my growing unease at the nature of some of the debates taking place here, and their barely conceiled anti-semetic bile. It is also apparant, that some members believe that shadowy groups lurk behind every historical twist and turn, their hidden hand responsible for every evil that has beset Humanity since we crawled from the primevel soup. For example, we are asked to believe that the devilish Neo-Cons who planned, and carried out the seamless ballet of 911, were incapable of planting a few WMDs in Iraq to back-up their hopelessly inept evidence of Saddams future intentions towards the West, let alone forsee the anarchy that has resulted as a consiquence of their actions. Always apply occams razor.

I agree. And if I could just add that trying to tackle the anti semites and deniers is a bit like trying to nail a piece of jelly to the wall. They have no respect for academic convention or for historical process.

Any piece of rabid nonsense googleable will do as "evidence" so long as it fits their peculiar and irrational prejudices.

The Marxian conception of history suggested by Stephen here is at least a refreshing and scientific change - reading linked below for the educational advancement of our loonies

http://www.worldsocialism.org/spgb/education/mchisted.html

_____________________________

"Any piece of rabid nonsense googleable will do as "evidence" so long as it fits their peculiar and irrational prejudices."

That certainly is valid - it would decimate membership here if those practices were prohibited - but congratulations on becoming the thing you hate. The same applies to dashing off retorts via quick web links, n'est ce pas? I suspect you found that one on...Google!

And, oh yes, let us never violate the sanctity of academic convention or historical process! Now, those of you who don't abide by Mr. Walker's fulmination, line up with the rest of those anti-Semites and loonies.

JG

No my friend I found that particular link in my favourites folder Did you read it?

Furthermore those who have no respect for the conventions of sound academic research need really only line up with those who produce crap conclusions - this does include the anti semites I referred to earlier, but so much more besides.

[Guest Stephen Turner]

All of the above is no secret, at least to those who understand the way the World works. No need for massive secret societys, the protocols of the elders of Zion, the Illuminati, knights templers, bilderburgers, Priory of scion, or men in secret underground bunkers stroking white cats. JUST BUSINESS AS USUAL FOR THE RICH, AND POWERFUL.

As the above has not been challenged, do I take it that members agree with this statement?

[Steve Ulman]

Stephen-

I think you’ve got it basically correct.

My cynical view:

Those with the most power will lie, cheat and steal to keep it.

Those with some power will lie, cheat and steal to get more power.

Those with no power and want power will lie, cheat and steal to gain power.

Those unwilling to lie, cheat and steal will never have power.

It's been that way since man first started to live in communities, and will always be that way. No need for an over-arching conspiracy, the individuals with power will do anything to keep it.

Edited October 30, 2006 by Steve Ulman

[Jack White]

Stephen-

I think you’ve got it basically correct.

My cynical view:

Those with the most power will lie, cheat and steal to keep it.

Those with some power will lie, cheat and steal to get more power.

Those with no power and want power will lie, cheat and steal to gain power.

Those unwilling to lie, cheat and steal will never have power.

It's been that way since man first started to live in communities, and will always be that way. No need for an over-arching conspiracy, the individuals with power will do anything to keep it.

Ulman finally gets something ABSOLUTELY CORRECT. Now if he would

only practice what he believes, maybe there is hope that he will recognize

the crimes that began with LBJ continue today with the Bushes and Cheney.

However, I disagree that his view is cynical...IT IS REALISTIC.

Jack

[Steve Ulman]

Jack-

I agree with Stephen.

No need for massive secret societys, the protocols of the elders of Zion, the Illuminati, knights templers, bilderburgers, Priory of scion, or men in secret underground bunkers stroking white cats.

My cynical response was slightly over the top. Obviously my attempt at humor was way over your head!

Edited October 30, 2006 by Steve Ulman

[Jack White]

Jack-

I agree with Stephen.

No need for massive secret societys, the protocols of the elders of Zion, the Illuminati, knights templers, bilderburgers, Priory of scion, or men in secret underground bunkers stroking white cats.

My cynical response was slightly over the top. Obviously my attempt at humor was way over your head!

I know humor when I see it. Humor brings a smile or laugh.

What you said was true, but not funny.

Jack