Thomas H. Purvis Posted September 29, 2007 Author Share Posted September 29, 2007 http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspir...39699f42839e1e2 As another instrumental "teaching point" regarding the Model 91/38 (as well as the M38 7.35mm weapons), beginning in 1938, the weapon now had an absolutely "fixed" sight, which was sighted-in/zeroed at the factory for a (an often debatable) 200 yard range/300 yard range. Nevertheless, (whichever range one accepts as being correct), in order to consistantly obtain a tight shot pattern grouping which would fall within the "bullseye" portion of the target, one had to obtain and hold the exact same perfect sighting pattern as the factory alignment. Which by the way was not even reasonable. In the US Armed Forces, all rifles long ago were produced with the ability for adjustment to the rear sight for what was referred to as "Windage" as well as "Elevation" adjustments. In fact, prior to 1938, the Carcano had this ability as well. Recognizing that virtually no two persons are going to hold the weapon in the absolutely exact/same position when firing, the US Armed Forces recognized that some method for compensation for the introduced error of how the weapon was held and exactly what "sight-picture" the shooter obtained. All of which had such varieties as their arm length, and even facial structure which creates slight variations in the dimensions between the cheek bone and the eye. Thus, the primary reason for the "windage" and "elevation" adjustments to the rear sight for US Military Weapons, and the critical application of these adjustments in achieving repetitive shot pattern groupings within a given target. In fact, few US Armed Forces personnel ever merely picked up a weapon, which was initially set at Zero Windage and Zero Elevation adjustments, and thereafter started placing their first rounds fired into the center of the targets. Not that actual wind speeds and wind directions do not have an effect on the ultimate accuracy, but one must consider that any inaccuracy imposed upon the projectile as a result of human deficiency, grows in proportion the farther the target is away from the shooter. I might also add that even the extremely accurate Model 91/38 (6.5mm Carcano) was often decreed to be a non-accurate weapon by those "shooters" who either never learned that it was they who were not placing their aiming eye into the perfect three-point alignment necessary for accuracy, or else learned it in the military service, yet forgot it when they picked up and fired a "fixed sight" weapon. Anyone who grew up shooting the old "fixed sight" weapons was thoroughly familiar with how one, if they wanted to shoot the eye out of rabbits, had to make a slight adjustment in their aiming point location on the rabbit's head in order to actually hit the rabbits eye. Of course, those who knew/know no better, liked to blame the weapon for any inaccuracy, when in fact, it was for the most part, all up to the shooter. Thusly, inability to shoot accurately with a relatively good condition Model 91/38 Carcano, coupled with quality WCC Ammunition, was by far more a result of "shooter error" in sight picture alignment, as opposed to an error and/or problem with the actual weapon. The only way to determine the accuracy capability of the weapon is to do as did the Weapons Evaluation Branch, and that being to fire the weapon from "Machine Rest" which eliminates those interjected aspects of human error. http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/simmons.htm Mr. EISENBERG. Do I understand your testimony to be that this rifle is as accurate as the current American military rifles? Mr. SIMMONS. Yes. As far as we can determine from bench-rest firing. Mr. EISENBERG. Would you consider that to be a high degree of accuracy? Mr. SIMMONS. Yes, the weapon is quite accurate. Mr. McCLOY. You are talking about the present military rifle--will you designate it? Mr. SIMMONS. The M-14. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Although not likely that this (repetitive) posting will enlighten everyone, hopefully,at least some of those who have been listening to the BS as regards the inaccuracies of the Carcano Rifle, just may step back and take a second look at this "Factoid"! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Knight Posted September 29, 2007 Share Posted September 29, 2007 (edited) Tom, wasn't it also you who mentioned the "left-eye dominance" thing as a possible explanation for the seemingly awkward mounting/orientation of the Jap scope on the Mannlicher-Carcano? I'd like to learn more about that aspect...or am I getting ahead of this discussion? Edited September 29, 2007 by Mark Knight Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas H. Purvis Posted September 30, 2007 Author Share Posted September 30, 2007 Tom, wasn't it also you who mentioned the "left-eye dominance" thing as a possible explanation for the seemingly awkward mounting/orientation of the Jap scope on the Mannlicher-Carcano? I'd like to learn more about that aspect...or am I getting ahead of this discussion? Mark; As with much of the "mud-slinging" I have to take responsibility for the "Left-Eye-Dominant" supposition. This comes about primarily as a result of the intensive questioning by members of the WC as to whether LHO was left-handed, how many of his family was left-handed, etc; etc; etc;. As I also long ago mentioned, a "Lefty" with the Weapons Instruction Branch of Special Forces Schools once outshot me 5 to 3 on a bet. I did not think that a Lefty could operate and fire a bolt action rifle any faster than I could. It cost me a case of beer, which was cheap. So, when Massad Ayoob wrote of this same aspects in his American Handgunner article several years back, I was already quite familiar with it. As well as the fact that my own father, "Harvey" happens to be right handed, yet he is left eye dominant and shots left-handed. I noticed this many years back when he fired a shotgun while bird hunting, and was thus exposed to "Left-Eye-Dominant" long prior to most even have heard of such a thing. All that it would mean is the following: 1. In event that LHO was either left-handed, or in fact ambidextreous, as is somewhat indicated by testimony, then firing the Carcano left handed, completely negates any information relative to how fast a right handed person may or may not have fired the weapon. As, has long been known and clearly demonstrated, a "Lefty" can operate and fire a right-hand bolt action rifle faster than can a normal right handed person. 2. Also, there exists the direct possibility that LHO was merely left-eye dominant. The Military Service, for the most part, forced one to fire the M1-Garand right handed as the ejection pattern for the empty casings was such that if fired from the left hand position, the ejected cartridge would frequently strike one in the face. In fact, I personally know one who received a medical discharge as well as small medical disability payments due to the eye damage which was caused by this. So, in even that LHO may have been Left-eye-dominant, then the mounting of the scope onto the left hand side of the weapon would have been an asset to his target acquisition capability, whereas it is in fact a detriment to the right-handed/right-eyed shooter in rapid fire circumstances. All of which, at this point, is pure speculation that is based only on a variety of circumstances related to the family history of left-handedness, the confusion regarding LHO's right handed/left handed aspects, as well as certain aspects related to his shooting ability. In that final regards, were it that LHO was in fact left-eye dominant (at minimum) (& which we may never know) then his ability to shoot the M1-Garand from the right handed position would have impaired his shooting ability. Thusly, the potential exists that LHO may have been an even better shot than is demonstrated by his relatively good Rangefire Record. This is of course based on a premise that he was left-eye dominant and now forced to fire in the right-eye aiming position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas H. Purvis Posted October 2, 2007 Author Share Posted October 2, 2007 (edited) http://openlettersmonthly.com/issue/he-died/#comment-2005 Thomas H. Purvis says: “Truth” is what, as a society, we are lead to believe and accept. “The World is Flat” was a recognized truth during certain periods of history. The Earth is the center of the Universe was another of these non-factual “Truth’s”. NOT the FACT! Merely the recognized truth. As to the shots fired in Dealy Plaza, the factual reality is that the shooting was not that good. 1. The first shot almost missed JFK, for reasons which are comparative to the miss on Walker. 2. The second shot (aka Z313) was quite high, and had it been as much as 1 & 1/2 inches higher, or had the Speed of the Presidential Limo (which was progressively decreasing in speed at the time) been 1 to 2 miles per hour less than it was, then the second shot would have completely missed and would have gone over the top of the head of JFK. 3. The third/last/final shot was what is normally referred to as a “snap shot”, and quite probably was as much luck that it ultimately struck in the head, as being related to any great marksmanship skills. At the time of impact of this last shot, JFK was leaned over and too the side, however, more critically, the Presidential Limo had almost stopped. ————————————————- http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/altgens.htm Mr. ALTGENS -The car never did stop. It was proceeding along in a slow pace ————————————————- And, if one thoroughly reviews the autopsy information, they will find that the impact point of the bullet was in fact far down at the upper base of the neck (below the back edge of the skull) at the edge of the hairline. It was only a “head hit” due to the anglular/position of JFK’s body in which the bullet travelled laterally (on a 12-degree downward angle) to ultimately strike the skull of JFK. In those contents and context, one must make a comparison of this shooting ability with LHO’s demonstrated ability during his Rangfire Qualification in the USMC. http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk...Vol16_0341b.htm The “500 yard Slowfire” firing station for Thursday’s practice demonstrtes as score of 44 out of a possible 50 points (.88 percentile) which is at the bottom range of what the USMC considers as EXPERT in overall qualification. The following day (Friday) during actual qualification firing, LHO fired a 46 out of a possible 50 points, for a score which was in the 92nd percentile rating. What clearly demonstrates the marksmanship ability of LHO is the actual target size. In the case of the 500 yard “Slow Fire” target, the inner circle has a 20-inch diameter. Thus, on December 20, 1956, LHO placed 5 of 10 shots fired, inside a 20-inch diameter circle at a range of 500 yards. On December 21, 1956, LHO placed 6 of 10 shots fired inside a 20-inch diameter circle at a range of 500 yards. _________________________________________________ The longest distance of any shot fired in Dealy Plaza was approximately 98 yards. _________________________________________________ Thereafter, when one takes into comparison the “Rapid Fire”, demonstrated shooting ability which LHO also demonstrated during his initial rifle marksmanship training in the USMC, they will find that LHO was quite accurate in this “speed-fire” ability as well. http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk...Vol16_0344a.htm http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk...Vol16_0346a.htm And, although the “Rapid Fire” target is somewhat larger in size (26-inches wide at the base X 19-inches high for the black silhoutte are for a “5″ score), the demonstrated ability of LHO at the 200 yard range as well as the 300 yard range, clearly shows that even under rapid-fire conditions, he was a far above average shooter. *For final Rangefire Qualification, LHO scored: At the 300 yard rapid fire station, LHO scored a 46 out of a possible 50 points, for a percentile rating of .92 At the 200 yard rapid fire station, LHO scored a 48 out of a possible 50 points, for a percentile rating of .96 ————————————————– http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/anderson.htm Testimony Of Maj. Eugene D. Anderson Major ANDERSON - I am assistant head of the Marksmanship Branch, Headquarters Marine Corps. Major ANDERSON - I have been working in marksmanship training for approximately 18 years. I am a distinguished rifle shot in the Marine Corps, master rifle shot, National Rifle Association of America. Major ANDERSON - I want to correct the record. Mr. SPECTER - Proceed to do so. Major ANDERSON - I am a master with the pistol in the National Rifle Association. I am not classified with the rifle. Mr. SPECTER - And does your classification as a distinguished marksman apply to the rifle? Major ANDERSON - To the rifle, yes. Mr. SPECTER - And on what date was the A course registered? Major ANDERSON - 21 December 1956. Mr. SPECTER - And what weapon was used? Major ANDERSON - The M-1 rifle. Mr. SPECTER - And what was his final qualification there? Major ANDERSON - 212. Mr. SPECTER - And what rating is that equivalent to, or within what range of rating is that score? Major ANDERSON - That should have been a sharpshooter. Mr. SPECTER - Based on what you see of Mr. Oswald’s marksmanship capabilities from the Marine Corps records which you have before you, Major Anderson, how would you characterize him as a marksman? Major ANDERSON - I would say that as compared to other Marines receiving the same type of training, that Oswald was a good shot, somewhat better than or equal to–better than the average let us say. As compared to a civilian who had not received this intensive training, he would be considered as a good to excellent shot. ————————————————– It would be hoped that the next time that someone attempts to continue feeding the rumor that LHO was not entirely capable of accurately firing a rifle at ranges of less than 100 yards, will be referred to what the record actually demonstrates, as well as those truly qualified “Shooters” such as Major Anderson and SGT. Zahm, who were in fact true “Shooters”. http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/zahm.htm Sergeant ZAHM. I am the NCO in charge of the Marksmanship Training Unit Armory at the Marksmanship Training Unit in the Weapons Training Battalion Marine Corps School, Quantico, Va. Mr. SPECTER. When you say NCO, what do you mean by that for the record. Sergeant ZAHM. Noncommissioned officer. Mr. SPECTER. How long have you been so occupied in that particular duty? Sergeant ZAHM. Two years 4 months. Mr. SPECTER. What experience have you had if any in marksmanship? Sergeant ZAHM. I became engaged in competitive shooting in 1952, and I became a distinguished rifleman in 1953. I fired the national matches from 1952 through to date about eight times. This is annually. I won the President’s match in 1953 at the national matches and the Leech Cup in 1952, and the Marine Corps Cup in 1957. There are some others. Sergeant ZAHM. With the equipment he had and with his ability, I consider it a very easy shot. Edited October 2, 2007 by Thomas H. Purvis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas H. Purvis Posted October 2, 2007 Author Share Posted October 2, 2007 For Mr. Knight! "High and to the Right" Think on that one Mark. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antti Hynonen Posted October 3, 2007 Share Posted October 3, 2007 Thomas H. Purvis Posted Yesterday, 03:30 PM http://openlettersmonthly.com/issue/he-died/#comment-2005 Thomas H. Purvis says: “Truth” is what, as a society, we are lead to believe and accept. “The World is Flat” was a recognized truth during certain periods of history. The Earth is the center of the Universe was another of these non-factual “Truth’s”. NOT the FACT! Merely the recognized truth. As to the shots fired in Dealy Plaza, the factual reality is that the shooting was not that good. 1. The first shot almost missed JFK, for reasons which are comparative to the miss on Walker. 2. The second shot (aka Z313) was quite high, and had it been as much as 1 & 1/2 inches higher, or had the Speed of the Presidential Limo (which was progressively decreasing in speed at the time) been 1 to 2 miles per hour less than it was, then the second shot would have completely missed and would have gone over the top of the head of JFK. 3. The third/last/final shot was what is normally referred to as a “snap shot”, and quite probably was as much luck that it ultimately struck in the head, as being related to any great marksmanship skills. At the time of impact of this last shot, JFK was leaned over and too the side, however, more critically, the Presidential Limo had almost stopped. ————————————————- http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/altgens.htm Mr. ALTGENS -The car never did stop. It was proceeding along in a slow pace ————————————————- And, if one thoroughly reviews the autopsy information, they will find that the impact point of the bullet was in fact far down at the upper base of the neck (below the back edge of the skull) at the edge of the hairline. It was only a “head hit” due to the anglular/position of JFK’s body in which the bullet travelled laterally (on a 12-degree downward angle) to ultimately strike the skull of JFK. In those contents and context, one must make a comparison of this shooting ability with LHO’s demonstrated ability during his Rangfire Qualification in the USMC. http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk...Vol16_0341b.htm The “500 yard Slowfire” firing station for Thursday’s practice demonstrtes as score of 44 out of a possible 50 points (.88 percentile) which is at the bottom range of what the USMC considers as EXPERT in overall qualification. The following day (Friday) during actual qualification firing, LHO fired a 46 out of a possible 50 points, for a score which was in the 92nd percentile rating. What clearly demonstrates the marksmanship ability of LHO is the actual target size. In the case of the 500 yard “Slow Fire” target, the inner circle has a 20-inch diameter. Thus, on December 20, 1956, LHO placed 5 of 10 shots fired, inside a 20-inch diameter circle at a range of 500 yards. On December 21, 1956, LHO placed 6 of 10 shots fired inside a 20-inch diameter circle at a range of 500 yards. _________________________________________________ The longest distance of any shot fired in Dealy Plaza was approximately 98 yards. _________________________________________________ Thereafter, when one takes into comparison the “Rapid Fire”, demonstrated shooting ability which LHO also demonstrated during his initial rifle marksmanship training in the USMC, they will find that LHO was quite accurate in this “speed-fire” ability as well. http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk...Vol16_0344a.htm http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk...Vol16_0346a.htm And, although the “Rapid Fire” target is somewhat larger in size (26-inches wide at the base X 19-inches high for the black silhoutte are for a “5″ score), the demonstrated ability of LHO at the 200 yard range as well as the 300 yard range, clearly shows that even under rapid-fire conditions, he was a far above average shooter. *For final Rangefire Qualification, LHO scored: At the 300 yard rapid fire station, LHO scored a 46 out of a possible 50 points, for a percentile rating of .92 At the 200 yard rapid fire station, LHO scored a 48 out of a possible 50 points, for a percentile rating of .96 ————————————————– http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/anderson.htm Testimony Of Maj. Eugene D. Anderson Major ANDERSON - I am assistant head of the Marksmanship Branch, Headquarters Marine Corps. Major ANDERSON - I have been working in marksmanship training for approximately 18 years. I am a distinguished rifle shot in the Marine Corps, master rifle shot, National Rifle Association of America. Major ANDERSON - I want to correct the record. Mr. SPECTER - Proceed to do so. Major ANDERSON - I am a master with the pistol in the National Rifle Association. I am not classified with the rifle. Mr. SPECTER - And does your classification as a distinguished marksman apply to the rifle? Major ANDERSON - To the rifle, yes. Mr. SPECTER - And on what date was the A course registered? Major ANDERSON - 21 December 1956. Mr. SPECTER - And what weapon was used? Major ANDERSON - The M-1 rifle. Mr. SPECTER - And what was his final qualification there? Major ANDERSON - 212. Mr. SPECTER - And what rating is that equivalent to, or within what range of rating is that score? Major ANDERSON - That should have been a sharpshooter. Mr. SPECTER - Based on what you see of Mr. Oswald’s marksmanship capabilities from the Marine Corps records which you have before you, Major Anderson, how would you characterize him as a marksman? Major ANDERSON - I would say that as compared to other Marines receiving the same type of training, that Oswald was a good shot, somewhat better than or equal to–better than the average let us say. As compared to a civilian who had not received this intensive training, he would be considered as a good to excellent shot. ————————————————– It would be hoped that the next time that someone attempts to continue feeding the rumor that LHO was not entirely capable of accurately firing a rifle at ranges of less than 100 yards, will be referred to what the record actually demonstrates, as well as those truly qualified “Shooters” such as Major Anderson and SGT. Zahm, who were in fact true “Shooters”. http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/zahm.htm Sergeant ZAHM. I am the NCO in charge of the Marksmanship Training Unit Armory at the Marksmanship Training Unit in the Weapons Training Battalion Marine Corps School, Quantico, Va. Mr. SPECTER. When you say NCO, what do you mean by that for the record. Sergeant ZAHM. Noncommissioned officer. Mr. SPECTER. How long have you been so occupied in that particular duty? Sergeant ZAHM. Two years 4 months. Mr. SPECTER. What experience have you had if any in marksmanship? Sergeant ZAHM. I became engaged in competitive shooting in 1952, and I became a distinguished rifleman in 1953. I fired the national matches from 1952 through to date about eight times. This is annually. I won the President’s match in 1953 at the national matches and the Leech Cup in 1952, and the Marine Corps Cup in 1957. There are some others. Sergeant ZAHM. With the equipment he had and with his ability, I consider it a very easy shot. TP: The following day (Friday) during actual qualification firing, LHO fired a 46 out of a possible 50 points, for a score which was in the 92nd percentile rating.What clearly demonstrates the marksmanship ability of LHO is the actual target size. In the case of the 500 yard “Slow Fire” target, the inner circle has a 20-inch diameter. Thus, on December 20, 1956, LHO placed 5 of 10 shots fired, inside a 20-inch diameter circle at a range of 500 yards. On December 21, 1956, LHO placed 6 of 10 shots fired inside a 20-inch diameter circle at a range of 500 yards. ------------------------- Fo sho.. And the weapon he used in the MC in 1956 was... and the weapon he used in 1963 was... and the practice he had in 1956 was... and the practice he had in 1963 was... and the target in 1963 was, a live target, moving in a downward slope, oh and in addition it was the Pres. of the United States, quite so - no problem he thought, I'll just pop a few bullets into him and be as cool as a cucumber about it. Sure.... But seriously, firing three times from the snipers lair and hitting people in the moving limousine down below is possible, I agree, but for Lee Oswald to have done it in 7 seconds, with an MC carbine, particularly the one he used (as it has been described), sorry no. I, for one, don't buy the fairy tale. What about all the other experienced snipers and riflemen that couldn't duplicate the deed (firing at a practice target not a human being)? See what world renowned sniper Gunnery Sgt. Carlos Hathcock had to say about his issue, to mention one. Not too long ago someone posted the results of some 12 riflemen trying to duplicate the shots, they were not successful in the allotted time. An additional second or two would not have mattered. Perhaps you ought to consider some other evidence and testimony before you draw your conclusions. Just a friendly thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas H. Purvis Posted October 3, 2007 Author Share Posted October 3, 2007 Thomas H. Purvis Posted Yesterday, 03:30 PM http://openlettersmonthly.com/issue/he-died/#comment-2005 Thomas H. Purvis says: “Truth” is what, as a society, we are lead to believe and accept. “The World is Flat” was a recognized truth during certain periods of history. The Earth is the center of the Universe was another of these non-factual “Truth’s”. NOT the FACT! Merely the recognized truth. As to the shots fired in Dealy Plaza, the factual reality is that the shooting was not that good. 1. The first shot almost missed JFK, for reasons which are comparative to the miss on Walker. 2. The second shot (aka Z313) was quite high, and had it been as much as 1 & 1/2 inches higher, or had the Speed of the Presidential Limo (which was progressively decreasing in speed at the time) been 1 to 2 miles per hour less than it was, then the second shot would have completely missed and would have gone over the top of the head of JFK. 3. The third/last/final shot was what is normally referred to as a “snap shot”, and quite probably was as much luck that it ultimately struck in the head, as being related to any great marksmanship skills. At the time of impact of this last shot, JFK was leaned over and too the side, however, more critically, the Presidential Limo had almost stopped. ————————————————- http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/altgens.htm Mr. ALTGENS -The car never did stop. It was proceeding along in a slow pace ————————————————- And, if one thoroughly reviews the autopsy information, they will find that the impact point of the bullet was in fact far down at the upper base of the neck (below the back edge of the skull) at the edge of the hairline. It was only a “head hit” due to the anglular/position of JFK’s body in which the bullet travelled laterally (on a 12-degree downward angle) to ultimately strike the skull of JFK. In those contents and context, one must make a comparison of this shooting ability with LHO’s demonstrated ability during his Rangfire Qualification in the USMC. http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk...Vol16_0341b.htm The “500 yard Slowfire” firing station for Thursday’s practice demonstrtes as score of 44 out of a possible 50 points (.88 percentile) which is at the bottom range of what the USMC considers as EXPERT in overall qualification. The following day (Friday) during actual qualification firing, LHO fired a 46 out of a possible 50 points, for a score which was in the 92nd percentile rating. What clearly demonstrates the marksmanship ability of LHO is the actual target size. In the case of the 500 yard “Slow Fire” target, the inner circle has a 20-inch diameter. Thus, on December 20, 1956, LHO placed 5 of 10 shots fired, inside a 20-inch diameter circle at a range of 500 yards. On December 21, 1956, LHO placed 6 of 10 shots fired inside a 20-inch diameter circle at a range of 500 yards. _________________________________________________ The longest distance of any shot fired in Dealy Plaza was approximately 98 yards. _________________________________________________ Thereafter, when one takes into comparison the “Rapid Fire”, demonstrated shooting ability which LHO also demonstrated during his initial rifle marksmanship training in the USMC, they will find that LHO was quite accurate in this “speed-fire” ability as well. http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk...Vol16_0344a.htm http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk...Vol16_0346a.htm And, although the “Rapid Fire” target is somewhat larger in size (26-inches wide at the base X 19-inches high for the black silhoutte are for a “5″ score), the demonstrated ability of LHO at the 200 yard range as well as the 300 yard range, clearly shows that even under rapid-fire conditions, he was a far above average shooter. *For final Rangefire Qualification, LHO scored: At the 300 yard rapid fire station, LHO scored a 46 out of a possible 50 points, for a percentile rating of .92 At the 200 yard rapid fire station, LHO scored a 48 out of a possible 50 points, for a percentile rating of .96 ————————————————– http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/anderson.htm Testimony Of Maj. Eugene D. Anderson Major ANDERSON - I am assistant head of the Marksmanship Branch, Headquarters Marine Corps. Major ANDERSON - I have been working in marksmanship training for approximately 18 years. I am a distinguished rifle shot in the Marine Corps, master rifle shot, National Rifle Association of America. Major ANDERSON - I want to correct the record. Mr. SPECTER - Proceed to do so. Major ANDERSON - I am a master with the pistol in the National Rifle Association. I am not classified with the rifle. Mr. SPECTER - And does your classification as a distinguished marksman apply to the rifle? Major ANDERSON - To the rifle, yes. Mr. SPECTER - And on what date was the A course registered? Major ANDERSON - 21 December 1956. Mr. SPECTER - And what weapon was used? Major ANDERSON - The M-1 rifle. Mr. SPECTER - And what was his final qualification there? Major ANDERSON - 212. Mr. SPECTER - And what rating is that equivalent to, or within what range of rating is that score? Major ANDERSON - That should have been a sharpshooter. Mr. SPECTER - Based on what you see of Mr. Oswald’s marksmanship capabilities from the Marine Corps records which you have before you, Major Anderson, how would you characterize him as a marksman? Major ANDERSON - I would say that as compared to other Marines receiving the same type of training, that Oswald was a good shot, somewhat better than or equal to–better than the average let us say. As compared to a civilian who had not received this intensive training, he would be considered as a good to excellent shot. ————————————————– It would be hoped that the next time that someone attempts to continue feeding the rumor that LHO was not entirely capable of accurately firing a rifle at ranges of less than 100 yards, will be referred to what the record actually demonstrates, as well as those truly qualified “Shooters” such as Major Anderson and SGT. Zahm, who were in fact true “Shooters”. http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/zahm.htm Sergeant ZAHM. I am the NCO in charge of the Marksmanship Training Unit Armory at the Marksmanship Training Unit in the Weapons Training Battalion Marine Corps School, Quantico, Va. Mr. SPECTER. When you say NCO, what do you mean by that for the record. Sergeant ZAHM. Noncommissioned officer. Mr. SPECTER. How long have you been so occupied in that particular duty? Sergeant ZAHM. Two years 4 months. Mr. SPECTER. What experience have you had if any in marksmanship? Sergeant ZAHM. I became engaged in competitive shooting in 1952, and I became a distinguished rifleman in 1953. I fired the national matches from 1952 through to date about eight times. This is annually. I won the President’s match in 1953 at the national matches and the Leech Cup in 1952, and the Marine Corps Cup in 1957. There are some others. Sergeant ZAHM. With the equipment he had and with his ability, I consider it a very easy shot. TP: The following day (Friday) during actual qualification firing, LHO fired a 46 out of a possible 50 points, for a score which was in the 92nd percentile rating.What clearly demonstrates the marksmanship ability of LHO is the actual target size. In the case of the 500 yard “Slow Fire” target, the inner circle has a 20-inch diameter. Thus, on December 20, 1956, LHO placed 5 of 10 shots fired, inside a 20-inch diameter circle at a range of 500 yards. On December 21, 1956, LHO placed 6 of 10 shots fired inside a 20-inch diameter circle at a range of 500 yards. ------------------------- Fo sho.. And the weapon he used in the MC in 1956 was... and the weapon he used in 1963 was... and the practice he had in 1956 was... and the practice he had in 1963 was... and the target in 1963 was, a live target, moving in a downward slope, oh and in addition it was the Pres. of the United States, quite so - no problem he thought, I'll just pop a few bullets into him and be as cool as a cucumber about it. Sure.... But seriously, firing three times from the snipers lair and hitting people in the moving limousine down below is possible, I agree, but for Lee Oswald to have done it in 7 seconds, with an MC carbine, particularly the one he used (as it has been described), sorry no. I, for one, don't buy the fairy tale. What about all the other experienced snipers and riflemen that couldn't duplicate the deed (firing at a practice target not a human being)? See what world renowned sniper Gunnery Sgt. Carlos Hathcock had to say about his issue, to mention one. Not too long ago someone posted the results of some 12 riflemen trying to duplicate the shots, they were not successful in the allotted time. An additional second or two would not have mattered. Perhaps you ought to consider some other evidence and testimony before you draw your conclusions. Just a friendly thought. Perhaps you ought to consider some other evidence and testimony before you draw your conclusions. Just a friendly thought. And, perhaps you should make an attempt to evaluate and understand the factual evidence before inserting your foot into your mouth on subjects which your sum total of experience appears to be reading and believing those who wish to sell you a book. FACT: 1. The Model 91/38 6.5mm Carcano which was recovered from the sixth floor of the TSDB was bench-tested and found to be as accurate a weapon as the US Military issue rifle, the M-14. 2. The 6.5 mm ammunition which was fired was manufactured by a US firm, as well as being manufactured to a US Miltary Ordnance Specification, which meant that it was as accurate and/or as reliable as any ammunition produced for US issue weapons. 3. The "Shooting Time" was in fact in fact considerably longer than the "7" seconds which you have been informed. Elapsed time between first shot to second shot was approximately 5.6 to 5.9 elapsed seconds. In event that Mr. Hathcock can not make this shot on a decreasing speed moving target, at a range of only 89 yards, then he had best go back to the firing range. Not to mention going back and actually reading and comprehending the factual evidence which will demonstrate that there were only two shots fired up to the Z313 impact. 4. Perhaps you should take the time and effort to read up on the firing, as accomplished by both the FBI as well as the Weapons Evaluation Branch, not to mention all of those persons associated with Massad Ayoob who picked up the Carcano for the first time and thereafter managed to accomplish a shooting feet which almost matched what you and others state that LHO & Carlos Hathcock could not accomplish. 5. Perhaps you should also take a look at LHO's first time at bat with the M-1 Garand, and you will see that immediately after having fired the Garand and acquired his "windage & elevation" adjustments, he placed 3 out of 3 shots fired within that 5-point scoring area of the target. Which by the way, happens to be prior to his having acquired all of this fantastic rangefire training on which you appear to have little if any faith. 6. And although unlike that you will accept "my" opinion, the first military rifle to which I was acquainted with was the M1-Garand, and I am quite familiar with it. I am also quite familiar with the Model 91/38 Carcano, since I own one and have fired it as well. And, for know-nothing novice's such as yourself, I will state absolutely, that it is far easier to shoot accurately with the lighter and more "shooter friendly" Carcano, than with the quite heavy and somewhat cumbersome Garand. The only problem being that the Carcano does not have the capability to adjust for the injected "Shooter error" as does the Garand. Now, if it were that I were having to shoot at targets which ran in the 500 yard to 1,000 yard range, I personally would always chose the Garand. At targets of 100 yards to 200 yards range, a good Carcano would always be my preference. 5. Lastly, it is of course quite unfortunate that you "fell for" "THE SHOT THAT MISSED", and wish to go around expousing on a subject matter of which you apparantly have done little research (other than to read whatever Carlos Hathcock (who was selling books) as well as multiple others (who were also selling books) misrepresented. That, remains your problem! Not mine! P.S. "One-Shot/One-Kill" does not mean that one has the ability for rapid fire accuracy. It merely means that one has the ability, under ideal conditions, to accurately hit the target on a single shot made under those perfect conditions of "Sniper" training. Which happen to encompass a wide variety of techniques in which virtually none can be applied under rapid-fire conditions. and the practice he had in 1963 was Try something new and unique! Read the witness testimony within the WC which fully substantiates that LHO was clearly observed at the rifle range in Dallas, shooting and/or setting/adjusting his sighting. 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Mark Knight Posted October 4, 2007 Share Posted October 4, 2007 For Mr. Knight!"High and to the Right" Think on that one Mark. Tom, I must be a bit more dense than usual today...that "shot" wasn't even "on the paper" with me. IOW, not sure if it was a reference to the effects of the scope being mounted as it was, or what other element you may have had in mind. It was a long day at work today, and my thinking apparatus is operating at a low level of efficiency. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hogan Posted October 4, 2007 Share Posted October 4, 2007 I, for one, don't buy the fairy tale. Antti, I'd say you're in good company. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antti Hynonen Posted October 4, 2007 Share Posted October 4, 2007 Thomas H. Purvis View Member Profile Add as Friend Send Message Find Member's Topics Find Member's Posts Yesterday, 04:17 PM IP: 64.12.117.196 | Post #82 | Super Member Group: Members Posts: 2864 Joined: 17-June 05 Member No.: 3092 Warn: (0%) QUOTE(Antti Hynonen @ Oct 3 2007, 07:50 AM) QUOTE Thomas H. Purvis Posted Yesterday, 03:30 PM http://openlettersmonthly.com/issue/he-died/#comment-2005 Thomas H. Purvis says: “Truth” is what, as a society, we are lead to believe and accept. “The World is Flat” was a recognized truth during certain periods of history. The Earth is the center of the Universe was another of these non-factual “Truth’s”. NOT the FACT! Merely the recognized truth. As to the shots fired in Dealy Plaza, the factual reality is that the shooting was not that good. 1. The first shot almost missed JFK, for reasons which are comparative to the miss on Walker. 2. The second shot (aka Z313) was quite high, and had it been as much as 1 & 1/2 inches higher, or had the Speed of the Presidential Limo (which was progressively decreasing in speed at the time) been 1 to 2 miles per hour less than it was, then the second shot would have completely missed and would have gone over the top of the head of JFK. 3. The third/last/final shot was what is normally referred to as a “snap shot”, and quite probably was as much luck that it ultimately struck in the head, as being related to any great marksmanship skills. At the time of impact of this last shot, JFK was leaned over and too the side, however, more critically, the Presidential Limo had almost stopped. ————————————————- http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/altgens.htm Mr. ALTGENS -The car never did stop. It was proceeding along in a slow pace ————————————————- And, if one thoroughly reviews the autopsy information, they will find that the impact point of the bullet was in fact far down at the upper base of the neck (below the back edge of the skull) at the edge of the hairline. It was only a “head hit” due to the anglular/position of JFK’s body in which the bullet travelled laterally (on a 12-degree downward angle) to ultimately strike the skull of JFK. In those contents and context, one must make a comparison of this shooting ability with LHO’s demonstrated ability during his Rangfire Qualification in the USMC. http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk...Vol16_0341b.htm The “500 yard Slowfire” firing station for Thursday’s practice demonstrtes as score of 44 out of a possible 50 points (.88 percentile) which is at the bottom range of what the USMC considers as EXPERT in overall qualification. The following day (Friday) during actual qualification firing, LHO fired a 46 out of a possible 50 points, for a score which was in the 92nd percentile rating. What clearly demonstrates the marksmanship ability of LHO is the actual target size. In the case of the 500 yard “Slow Fire” target, the inner circle has a 20-inch diameter. Thus, on December 20, 1956, LHO placed 5 of 10 shots fired, inside a 20-inch diameter circle at a range of 500 yards. On December 21, 1956, LHO placed 6 of 10 shots fired inside a 20-inch diameter circle at a range of 500 yards. _________________________________________________ The longest distance of any shot fired in Dealy Plaza was approximately 98 yards. _________________________________________________ Thereafter, when one takes into comparison the “Rapid Fire”, demonstrated shooting ability which LHO also demonstrated during his initial rifle marksmanship training in the USMC, they will find that LHO was quite accurate in this “speed-fire” ability as well. http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk...Vol16_0344a.htm http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk...Vol16_0346a.htm And, although the “Rapid Fire” target is somewhat larger in size (26-inches wide at the base X 19-inches high for the black silhoutte are for a “5″ score), the demonstrated ability of LHO at the 200 yard range as well as the 300 yard range, clearly shows that even under rapid-fire conditions, he was a far above average shooter. *For final Rangefire Qualification, LHO scored: At the 300 yard rapid fire station, LHO scored a 46 out of a possible 50 points, for a percentile rating of .92 At the 200 yard rapid fire station, LHO scored a 48 out of a possible 50 points, for a percentile rating of .96 ————————————————– http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/anderson.htm Testimony Of Maj. Eugene D. Anderson Major ANDERSON - I am assistant head of the Marksmanship Branch, Headquarters Marine Corps. Major ANDERSON - I have been working in marksmanship training for approximately 18 years. I am a distinguished rifle shot in the Marine Corps, master rifle shot, National Rifle Association of America. Major ANDERSON - I want to correct the record. Mr. SPECTER - Proceed to do so. Major ANDERSON - I am a master with the pistol in the National Rifle Association. I am not classified with the rifle. Mr. SPECTER - And does your classification as a distinguished marksman apply to the rifle? Major ANDERSON - To the rifle, yes. Mr. SPECTER - And on what date was the A course registered? Major ANDERSON - 21 December 1956. Mr. SPECTER - And what weapon was used? Major ANDERSON - The M-1 rifle. Mr. SPECTER - And what was his final qualification there? Major ANDERSON - 212. Mr. SPECTER - And what rating is that equivalent to, or within what range of rating is that score? Major ANDERSON - That should have been a sharpshooter. Mr. SPECTER - Based on what you see of Mr. Oswald’s marksmanship capabilities from the Marine Corps records which you have before you, Major Anderson, how would you characterize him as a marksman? Major ANDERSON - I would say that as compared to other Marines receiving the same type of training, that Oswald was a good shot, somewhat better than or equal to–better than the average let us say. As compared to a civilian who had not received this intensive training, he would be considered as a good to excellent shot. ————————————————– It would be hoped that the next time that someone attempts to continue feeding the rumor that LHO was not entirely capable of accurately firing a rifle at ranges of less than 100 yards, will be referred to what the record actually demonstrates, as well as those truly qualified “Shooters” such as Major Anderson and SGT. Zahm, who were in fact true “Shooters”. http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/zahm.htm Sergeant ZAHM. I am the NCO in charge of the Marksmanship Training Unit Armory at the Marksmanship Training Unit in the Weapons Training Battalion Marine Corps School, Quantico, Va. Mr. SPECTER. When you say NCO, what do you mean by that for the record. Sergeant ZAHM. Noncommissioned officer. Mr. SPECTER. How long have you been so occupied in that particular duty? Sergeant ZAHM. Two years 4 months. Mr. SPECTER. What experience have you had if any in marksmanship? Sergeant ZAHM. I became engaged in competitive shooting in 1952, and I became a distinguished rifleman in 1953. I fired the national matches from 1952 through to date about eight times. This is annually. I won the President’s match in 1953 at the national matches and the Leech Cup in 1952, and the Marine Corps Cup in 1957. There are some others. Sergeant ZAHM. With the equipment he had and with his ability, I consider it a very easy shot. TP: QUOTE The following day (Friday) during actual qualification firing, LHO fired a 46 out of a possible 50 points, for a score which was in the 92nd percentile rating. What clearly demonstrates the marksmanship ability of LHO is the actual target size. In the case of the 500 yard “Slow Fire” target, the inner circle has a 20-inch diameter. Thus, on December 20, 1956, LHO placed 5 of 10 shots fired, inside a 20-inch diameter circle at a range of 500 yards. On December 21, 1956, LHO placed 6 of 10 shots fired inside a 20-inch diameter circle at a range of 500 yards. ------------------------- Fo sho.. And the weapon he used in the MC in 1956 was... and the weapon he used in 1963 was... and the practice he had in 1956 was... and the practice he had in 1963 was... and the target in 1963 was, a live target, moving in a downward slope, oh and in addition it was the Pres. of the United States, quite so - no problem he thought, I'll just pop a few bullets into him and be as cool as a cucumber about it. Sure.... But seriously, firing three times from the snipers lair and hitting people in the moving limousine down below is possible, I agree, but for Lee Oswald to have done it in 7 seconds, with an MC carbine, particularly the one he used (as it has been described), sorry no. I, for one, don't buy the fairy tale. What about all the other experienced snipers and riflemen that couldn't duplicate the deed (firing at a practice target not a human being)? See what world renowned sniper Gunnery Sgt. Carlos Hathcock had to say about his issue, to mention one. Not too long ago someone posted the results of some 12 riflemen trying to duplicate the shots, they were not successful in the allotted time. An additional second or two would not have mattered. Perhaps you ought to consider some other evidence and testimony before you draw your conclusions. Just a friendly thought. Perhaps you ought to consider some other evidence and testimony before you draw your conclusions. Just a friendly thought. And, perhaps you should make an attempt to evaluate and understand the factual evidence before inserting your foot into your mouth on subjects which your sum total of experience appears to be reading and believing those who wish to sell you a book. FACT: 1. The Model 91/38 6.5mm Carcano which was recovered from the sixth floor of the TSDB was bench-tested and found to be as accurate a weapon as the US Military issue rifle, the M-14. 2. The 6.5 mm ammunition which was fired was manufactured by a US firm, as well as being manufactured to a US Miltary Ordnance Specification, which meant that it was as accurate and/or as reliable as any ammunition produced for US issue weapons. 3. The "Shooting Time" was in fact in fact considerably longer than the "7" seconds which you have been informed. Elapsed time between first shot to second shot was approximately 5.6 to 5.9 elapsed seconds. In event that Mr. Hathcock can not make this shot on a decreasing speed moving target, at a range of only 89 yards, then he had best go back to the firing range. Not to mention going back and actually reading and comprehending the factual evidence which will demonstrate that there were only two shots fired up to the Z313 impact. 4. Perhaps you should take the time and effort to read up on the firing, as accomplished by both the FBI as well as the Weapons Evaluation Branch, not to mention all of those persons associated with Massad Ayoob who picked up the Carcano for the first time and thereafter managed to accomplish a shooting feet which almost matched what you and others state that LHO & Carlos Hathcock could not accomplish. 5. Perhaps you should also take a look at LHO's first time at bat with the M-1 Garand, and you will see that immediately after having fired the Garand and acquired his "windage & elevation" adjustments, he placed 3 out of 3 shots fired within that 5-point scoring area of the target. Which by the way, happens to be prior to his having acquired all of this fantastic rangefire training on which you appear to have little if any faith. 6. And although unlike that you will accept "my" opinion, the first military rifle to which I was acquainted with was the M1-Garand, and I am quite familiar with it. I am also quite familiar with the Model 91/38 Carcano, since I own one and have fired it as well. And, for know-nothing novice's such as yourself, I will state absolutely, that it is far easier to shoot accurately with the lighter and more "shooter friendly" Carcano, than with the quite heavy and somewhat cumbersome Garand. The only problem being that the Carcano does not have the capability to adjust for the injected "Shooter error" as does the Garand. Now, if it were that I were having to shoot at targets which ran in the 500 yard to 1,000 yard range, I personally would always chose the Garand. At targets of 100 yards to 200 yards range, a good Carcano would always be my preference. 5. Lastly, it is of course quite unfortunate that you "fell for" "THE SHOT THAT MISSED", and wish to go around expousing on a subject matter of which you apparantly have done little research (other than to read whatever Carlos Hathcock (who was selling books) as well as multiple others (who were also selling books) misrepresented. That, remains your problem! Not mine! P.S. "One-Shot/One-Kill" does not mean that one has the ability for rapid fire accuracy. It merely means that one has the ability, under ideal conditions, to accurately hit the target on a single shot made under those perfect conditions of "Sniper" training. Which happen to encompass a wide variety of techniques in which virtually none can be applied under rapid-fire conditions. and the practice he had in 1963 was Try something new and unique! Read the witness testimony within the WC which fully substantiates that LHO was clearly observed at the rifle range in Dallas, shooting and/or setting/adjusting his sighting. Good luck Mr. Purvis! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas H. Purvis Posted October 4, 2007 Author Share Posted October 4, 2007 For Mr. Knight!"High and to the Right" Think on that one Mark. Tom, I must be a bit more dense than usual today...that "shot" wasn't even "on the paper" with me. IOW, not sure if it was a reference to the effects of the scope being mounted as it was, or what other element you may have had in mind. It was a long day at work today, and my thinking apparatus is operating at a low level of efficiency. "High and to the Right" is the general impact location for shots fired from the Carcano when the weapon was first tested by the FBI after having been received from DPD. With the manner in which the scope was mounted, generally for all shots fired, the shot grouping was some 4 to six inches "high", and generally slightly "right" of the actual aiming point on center of target. Many have immediately "jumped" onto this information with no knowledge and have thereafter attempted to utililze it to buttress their asinine claims that the rifle (Carcano) found on the sixth floor could not have even been utilized by anyone during the shooting, as no one could have hit anything with it due to the failure of the sighting mechanicism (scope) to be able to align with and hit the target. Even many of the supposedly "shooters" have never taken the time to explain a few of the items necessary for accurate shooting, which would have also shed some light onto this subject. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas H. Purvis Posted October 4, 2007 Author Share Posted October 4, 2007 Thomas H. Purvis View Member Profile Add as Friend Send Message Find Member's Topics Find Member's Posts Yesterday, 04:17 PM IP: 64.12.117.196 | Post #82 | Super Member Group: Members Posts: 2864 Joined: 17-June 05 Member No.: 3092 Warn: (0%) QUOTE(Antti Hynonen @ Oct 3 2007, 07:50 AM) QUOTE Thomas H. Purvis Posted Yesterday, 03:30 PM http://openlettersmonthly.com/issue/he-died/#comment-2005 Thomas H. Purvis says: “Truth” is what, as a society, we are lead to believe and accept. “The World is Flat” was a recognized truth during certain periods of history. The Earth is the center of the Universe was another of these non-factual “Truth’s”. NOT the FACT! Merely the recognized truth. As to the shots fired in Dealy Plaza, the factual reality is that the shooting was not that good. 1. The first shot almost missed JFK, for reasons which are comparative to the miss on Walker. 2. The second shot (aka Z313) was quite high, and had it been as much as 1 & 1/2 inches higher, or had the Speed of the Presidential Limo (which was progressively decreasing in speed at the time) been 1 to 2 miles per hour less than it was, then the second shot would have completely missed and would have gone over the top of the head of JFK. 3. The third/last/final shot was what is normally referred to as a “snap shot”, and quite probably was as much luck that it ultimately struck in the head, as being related to any great marksmanship skills. At the time of impact of this last shot, JFK was leaned over and too the side, however, more critically, the Presidential Limo had almost stopped. ————————————————- http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/altgens.htm Mr. ALTGENS -The car never did stop. It was proceeding along in a slow pace ————————————————- And, if one thoroughly reviews the autopsy information, they will find that the impact point of the bullet was in fact far down at the upper base of the neck (below the back edge of the skull) at the edge of the hairline. It was only a “head hit” due to the anglular/position of JFK’s body in which the bullet travelled laterally (on a 12-degree downward angle) to ultimately strike the skull of JFK. In those contents and context, one must make a comparison of this shooting ability with LHO’s demonstrated ability during his Rangfire Qualification in the USMC. http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk...Vol16_0341b.htm The “500 yard Slowfire” firing station for Thursday’s practice demonstrtes as score of 44 out of a possible 50 points (.88 percentile) which is at the bottom range of what the USMC considers as EXPERT in overall qualification. The following day (Friday) during actual qualification firing, LHO fired a 46 out of a possible 50 points, for a score which was in the 92nd percentile rating. What clearly demonstrates the marksmanship ability of LHO is the actual target size. In the case of the 500 yard “Slow Fire” target, the inner circle has a 20-inch diameter. Thus, on December 20, 1956, LHO placed 5 of 10 shots fired, inside a 20-inch diameter circle at a range of 500 yards. On December 21, 1956, LHO placed 6 of 10 shots fired inside a 20-inch diameter circle at a range of 500 yards. _________________________________________________ The longest distance of any shot fired in Dealy Plaza was approximately 98 yards. _________________________________________________ Thereafter, when one takes into comparison the “Rapid Fire”, demonstrated shooting ability which LHO also demonstrated during his initial rifle marksmanship training in the USMC, they will find that LHO was quite accurate in this “speed-fire” ability as well. http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk...Vol16_0344a.htm http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk...Vol16_0346a.htm And, although the “Rapid Fire” target is somewhat larger in size (26-inches wide at the base X 19-inches high for the black silhoutte are for a “5″ score), the demonstrated ability of LHO at the 200 yard range as well as the 300 yard range, clearly shows that even under rapid-fire conditions, he was a far above average shooter. *For final Rangefire Qualification, LHO scored: At the 300 yard rapid fire station, LHO scored a 46 out of a possible 50 points, for a percentile rating of .92 At the 200 yard rapid fire station, LHO scored a 48 out of a possible 50 points, for a percentile rating of .96 ————————————————– http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/anderson.htm Testimony Of Maj. Eugene D. Anderson Major ANDERSON - I am assistant head of the Marksmanship Branch, Headquarters Marine Corps. Major ANDERSON - I have been working in marksmanship training for approximately 18 years. I am a distinguished rifle shot in the Marine Corps, master rifle shot, National Rifle Association of America. Major ANDERSON - I want to correct the record. Mr. SPECTER - Proceed to do so. Major ANDERSON - I am a master with the pistol in the National Rifle Association. I am not classified with the rifle. Mr. SPECTER - And does your classification as a distinguished marksman apply to the rifle? Major ANDERSON - To the rifle, yes. Mr. SPECTER - And on what date was the A course registered? Major ANDERSON - 21 December 1956. Mr. SPECTER - And what weapon was used? Major ANDERSON - The M-1 rifle. Mr. SPECTER - And what was his final qualification there? Major ANDERSON - 212. Mr. SPECTER - And what rating is that equivalent to, or within what range of rating is that score? Major ANDERSON - That should have been a sharpshooter. Mr. SPECTER - Based on what you see of Mr. Oswald’s marksmanship capabilities from the Marine Corps records which you have before you, Major Anderson, how would you characterize him as a marksman? Major ANDERSON - I would say that as compared to other Marines receiving the same type of training, that Oswald was a good shot, somewhat better than or equal to–better than the average let us say. As compared to a civilian who had not received this intensive training, he would be considered as a good to excellent shot. ————————————————– It would be hoped that the next time that someone attempts to continue feeding the rumor that LHO was not entirely capable of accurately firing a rifle at ranges of less than 100 yards, will be referred to what the record actually demonstrates, as well as those truly qualified “Shooters” such as Major Anderson and SGT. Zahm, who were in fact true “Shooters”. http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/zahm.htm Sergeant ZAHM. I am the NCO in charge of the Marksmanship Training Unit Armory at the Marksmanship Training Unit in the Weapons Training Battalion Marine Corps School, Quantico, Va. Mr. SPECTER. When you say NCO, what do you mean by that for the record. Sergeant ZAHM. Noncommissioned officer. Mr. SPECTER. How long have you been so occupied in that particular duty? Sergeant ZAHM. Two years 4 months. Mr. SPECTER. What experience have you had if any in marksmanship? Sergeant ZAHM. I became engaged in competitive shooting in 1952, and I became a distinguished rifleman in 1953. I fired the national matches from 1952 through to date about eight times. This is annually. I won the President’s match in 1953 at the national matches and the Leech Cup in 1952, and the Marine Corps Cup in 1957. There are some others. Sergeant ZAHM. With the equipment he had and with his ability, I consider it a very easy shot. TP: QUOTE The following day (Friday) during actual qualification firing, LHO fired a 46 out of a possible 50 points, for a score which was in the 92nd percentile rating. What clearly demonstrates the marksmanship ability of LHO is the actual target size. In the case of the 500 yard “Slow Fire” target, the inner circle has a 20-inch diameter. Thus, on December 20, 1956, LHO placed 5 of 10 shots fired, inside a 20-inch diameter circle at a range of 500 yards. On December 21, 1956, LHO placed 6 of 10 shots fired inside a 20-inch diameter circle at a range of 500 yards. ------------------------- Fo sho.. And the weapon he used in the MC in 1956 was... and the weapon he used in 1963 was... and the practice he had in 1956 was... and the practice he had in 1963 was... and the target in 1963 was, a live target, moving in a downward slope, oh and in addition it was the Pres. of the United States, quite so - no problem he thought, I'll just pop a few bullets into him and be as cool as a cucumber about it. Sure.... But seriously, firing three times from the snipers lair and hitting people in the moving limousine down below is possible, I agree, but for Lee Oswald to have done it in 7 seconds, with an MC carbine, particularly the one he used (as it has been described), sorry no. I, for one, don't buy the fairy tale. What about all the other experienced snipers and riflemen that couldn't duplicate the deed (firing at a practice target not a human being)? See what world renowned sniper Gunnery Sgt. Carlos Hathcock had to say about his issue, to mention one. Not too long ago someone posted the results of some 12 riflemen trying to duplicate the shots, they were not successful in the allotted time. An additional second or two would not have mattered. Perhaps you ought to consider some other evidence and testimony before you draw your conclusions. Just a friendly thought. Perhaps you ought to consider some other evidence and testimony before you draw your conclusions. Just a friendly thought. And, perhaps you should make an attempt to evaluate and understand the factual evidence before inserting your foot into your mouth on subjects which your sum total of experience appears to be reading and believing those who wish to sell you a book. FACT: 1. The Model 91/38 6.5mm Carcano which was recovered from the sixth floor of the TSDB was bench-tested and found to be as accurate a weapon as the US Military issue rifle, the M-14. 2. The 6.5 mm ammunition which was fired was manufactured by a US firm, as well as being manufactured to a US Miltary Ordnance Specification, which meant that it was as accurate and/or as reliable as any ammunition produced for US issue weapons. 3. The "Shooting Time" was in fact in fact considerably longer than the "7" seconds which you have been informed. Elapsed time between first shot to second shot was approximately 5.6 to 5.9 elapsed seconds. In event that Mr. Hathcock can not make this shot on a decreasing speed moving target, at a range of only 89 yards, then he had best go back to the firing range. Not to mention going back and actually reading and comprehending the factual evidence which will demonstrate that there were only two shots fired up to the Z313 impact. 4. Perhaps you should take the time and effort to read up on the firing, as accomplished by both the FBI as well as the Weapons Evaluation Branch, not to mention all of those persons associated with Massad Ayoob who picked up the Carcano for the first time and thereafter managed to accomplish a shooting feet which almost matched what you and others state that LHO & Carlos Hathcock could not accomplish. 5. Perhaps you should also take a look at LHO's first time at bat with the M-1 Garand, and you will see that immediately after having fired the Garand and acquired his "windage & elevation" adjustments, he placed 3 out of 3 shots fired within that 5-point scoring area of the target. Which by the way, happens to be prior to his having acquired all of this fantastic rangefire training on which you appear to have little if any faith. 6. And although unlike that you will accept "my" opinion, the first military rifle to which I was acquainted with was the M1-Garand, and I am quite familiar with it. I am also quite familiar with the Model 91/38 Carcano, since I own one and have fired it as well. And, for know-nothing novice's such as yourself, I will state absolutely, that it is far easier to shoot accurately with the lighter and more "shooter friendly" Carcano, than with the quite heavy and somewhat cumbersome Garand. The only problem being that the Carcano does not have the capability to adjust for the injected "Shooter error" as does the Garand. Now, if it were that I were having to shoot at targets which ran in the 500 yard to 1,000 yard range, I personally would always chose the Garand. At targets of 100 yards to 200 yards range, a good Carcano would always be my preference. 5. Lastly, it is of course quite unfortunate that you "fell for" "THE SHOT THAT MISSED", and wish to go around expousing on a subject matter of which you apparantly have done little research (other than to read whatever Carlos Hathcock (who was selling books) as well as multiple others (who were also selling books) misrepresented. That, remains your problem! Not mine! P.S. "One-Shot/One-Kill" does not mean that one has the ability for rapid fire accuracy. It merely means that one has the ability, under ideal conditions, to accurately hit the target on a single shot made under those perfect conditions of "Sniper" training. Which happen to encompass a wide variety of techniques in which virtually none can be applied under rapid-fire conditions. and the practice he had in 1963 was Try something new and unique! Read the witness testimony within the WC which fully substantiates that LHO was clearly observed at the rifle range in Dallas, shooting and/or setting/adjusting his sighting. Good luck Mr. Purvis! Thanks! Don't need it. Luck is for those who have no idea as to what they are doing and hope that they will accidently stumble onto good fortune and/or knowledge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas H. Purvis Posted October 4, 2007 Author Share Posted October 4, 2007 (edited) LHO Rangefire Qualification @ USMC Firing Stations: Yardage--Slow Fire--------Rapid Fire----------Position------LHO Score-------%tile Rating 200--------------X-----------------------------------Standing-----39 of 50*------------ 78 (80) 200--------------X-----------------------------------Sitting 200----------------------------------X---------------Sitting--------48 of 50--------------96 --------------------------------------------------------------- 300--------------X-----------------------------------Sitting ----------------------------------------------------------------------37 of 50**-----------74 300--------------X-----------------------------------Kneeling 300----------------------------------X------Prone------------------46 of 50-------------92 500--------------X---------------------- Prone**---------------46 of 50 ------92 -------------------------------------------------------------Total: 216 of 250 Correct Score should have been 217 out of a possible 250 points when the 1-point error in addition for the 200-yard Standing/Offhand shooting station is added to the Total. Scoring of 160 to 211 qualifies as MARKSMAN Scoring of 212 to 219 qualifies as SHARPSHOOTER Score of 220 and above qualifies as EXPERT LHO’s Military Record indicates that he fired 212 out of a possible 250 points, which had it been correct, would have qualified him as a SHARPSHOOTER. Yet, his record demonstrates that he was erroneously awarded the lower qualification rating of MARKSMAN. And, his actual Rangefire Qualification Records indicate that he fired a total score of 217 out of a possible 250 points, which placed him only 3 points below the qualification standard for the EXPERT rating. ================================================================ * If one correctly adds the scoring for this firing station, the score totals 40 points out of a possible 50. **During actual rangefire qualification, the 300 yard slow-fire sitting & the 300 yard kneeling position were combined into a single station at which the participant fired 5 rounds at each position. In addition, during this firing station (& only this station) the cross-winds had gone from a previous Zero mph to a reported 5mph. These winds were coming from almost directly left, to right as one looks down the line of fire. During the course of attempting to fire, LHO went through 5 separate windage adjustments on his sights in attempt to get his shot grouping from right-of-center to center of target. Since his windage adjustments corrections appear to have been mostly a “trial & error” method of correction, and the Drill/Range Instructors are forbidden from giving any advice and/or assistance during actual rangefire qualification for record, it would appear that LHO’s failure to do well at this station is due more to a lack of understanding on the correct formula application method necessary to correct for crosswinds, than it is as a result of poor marksmanship. Therefore, one must look at exactly who’s responsibility was it to insure that the Recruit fully understand the mathematical computation formula necessary for cross-wind correction. ***Although the 500 yard slow-fire station is defined as being fired from the “prone” position, and LHO on the day prior to actual qualification fired a score of 44 out of a possible 50 when firing from this position, his actual rangefire for qualification appears to state that he fired from the “sitting” position when he fired for record the following day. All recruits were required to keep their own “Scoring”. Thusly, LHO is responsible for the errors which exist between what his specific records indicate that he shot, and the added totals for each station as well as apparently for the error of his total score. Edited October 4, 2007 by Thomas H. Purvis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antti Hynonen Posted October 4, 2007 Share Posted October 4, 2007 Thomas H. Purvis Posted Today, 09:56 AM Luck is for those who have no idea as to what they are doing and hope that they will accidently stumble onto good fortune and/or knowledge. Exactly what I mean. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas H. Purvis Posted October 4, 2007 Author Share Posted October 4, 2007 Thomas H. Purvis Posted Today, 09:56 AM Luck is for those who have no idea as to what they are doing and hope that they will accidently stumble onto good fortune and/or knowledge. Exactly what I mean. Hang in there Antti! Sooner or later you may actually find a following (more than one or two) to whom you can convince that you actually know how to conduct research as well as have actually done so. Meanwhile, I eagerly await something factual from you, as opposed to the usual BS you expouse! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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