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Would Tosh Plumlee please pick up the white courtesy phone?


Ashton Gray
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Mr. Plumlee, I have read with absorbed interest your accounts of the unusual, not to say bizarre, sequence of events that you were swept up in on 21 and 22 November 1963, and I want to say at the outset that I can certainly understand how frustrating it must be for you to be questioned about details, when you've only tried to help.

In that spirit of help, I hope you can help me untangle a few knots I find myself dealing with, none of which I have seen asked or answered. Of course, I cannot guarantee with certainy that I've found everything there is to read on this, but I've certainly made the effort, so if something I ask is actually answered elsewhere, perhaps you would be kind enough to give me a very specific cite to a document I can access, and tell where to find it.

If not, here are some questions I have that I feel have relevant importance:

1) As specifically as you can recall, when exactly were you at the Illusionary Warfare Training in Nagshead, North Carolina with Lee Harvey Oswald and for how long?

2) What "intelligence training matters" were you and Lee Harvey Oswald engaged in there?

3) Why was Lee Harvey Oswald engaged in "intelligence training matters"?

4) As specifically as you can recall, when exactly were you at the Honolulu radar installation with Lee Harvey Oswald and for how long?

5) What "intelligence training matters" were you and Lee Harvey Oswald engaged in there, and why was Lee Harvey Oswald engaged in "intelligence training matters"?

6) As specifically as you can recall, when exactly were you at Oahu's Wheeler Air Force Base with Lee Harvey Oswald and for how long?

7) What "intelligence training matters" were you and Lee Harvey Oswald engaged in there, and why was Lee Harvey Oswald engaged in "intelligence training matters"?

8) As specifically as you can recall, when exactly were you "in Dallas at an Oak Cliff safe house on North Beckley Street run by Alpha 66's Hernandez group, who had worked out of Miami prior to the assassination" with Lee Harvey Oswald and for how long?

9) What "intelligence training matters" were you and Lee Harvey Oswald engaged in there, and why was Lee Harvey Oswald engaged in "intelligence training matters"?

10) You have emphasized that "we were military intelligence" going in and out of Dallas, and that the CIA were only your "support people." You later say: "As we say in CIA... ." Were you military intelligence on 21-22 November 1963, or CIA?

11) If you answered "military intelligence," what branch of military intelligence were you in, what was your rank and station, and who was your superior officer?

12) You say you departed from Miami and traveled to Dallas via New Orleans and Houston, and that the flight plan for 6393 Echo out of Salt Lake City, Utah around the same time to Dallas, with Roselli's name on it, was not a flight plan for your flight. You also say that CIA's Robert "Bob" Bennett briefed you on your mission. Do you have any explanation for why the other flight would have departed from Bob Bennett's home town?

13) Would you please supply the names of Secret Service agents and officials who were apprised by CIA and by your "military intelligence" branch of the threat against the President, and of your "abort team" being in the area.

It would be of the greatest help to me—and to many others, I'm sure—if you could fill in these holes in the record. I have been very moved by the lengths you have gone to, and the personal victimizations you have suffered, so you could be of just such help, so, given these few paltry matters, I feel completely confident that you will go the extra two feet.

Ashton Gray

Edited by Ashton Gray
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One ringy-dingy...

Ashton

Last messege I got from Plumlee via private email was that he was leaving the Forum and not to be paying it any attention. He also mentioned he was going to be 'out of touch' for a 'while'. He has done both before and surfaced again before. Tosh, you out there and wanting to answer? If no, I'll try my level best....but you could do a much better and more authentic job. I can vouch for Ashton as a very tough and ornery questioner, but a decent guy...and not trying to trap you into anything...only interested in getting to the [Capital T] Truth of the matters at hand.

Ashton:

I concur with Peter. Tosh has done this several times. He will be back. He always answers questions, so just be patient. He may be working on something sensitive. Also when he starts a thread and little interest is generated he then loses interest himself. This has occurred several times. But he always returns.

Dawn

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Two ringy-dingies.

While I've been sitting here buffing my nails and waiting, Tosh, a few more questions kind of crept up on me. I'll do these with letters instead of numbers:

A. In your 1992 interview, you said in pertinent part: "There was 3 people got off in Garland and they were picked up about 30 minutes after we arrived there, by car. Then we took the aircraft and jumped over to Redbird Airport after the weather had cleared... . ...Everybody else got off at Redbird. John Roselli got off at Redbird and everybody went their own way." Twelve years later, in a sworn Declaration, you said in pertinent part: "While waiting out the bad weather in Garland, and about 30 minutes after landing, 3 of the passengers were picked up by car, including Roselli." Which of these conflicting stories you told about Roselli, if either, do you now say is true?

B. When CIA's Robert "Bob" Bennett briefed you, what identifying information were you given for the alleged "minimum of 19 or 20 people" your "abort team" was supposed to be looking for?

C. You say that on 22 November 1963 you went from Redbird airport by car "to the safe house over by Oak Cliff Country Club on Bar Harbor Drive" before going on to Dealey Plaza. Elsewhere, you claim to have spent some earlier period of time with Lee Harvey Oswald "in Dallas at an Oak Cliff safe house on North Beckley Street." So in these two entirely separate references to Oak Cliff safe houses in Dallas, are they references to the same Oak Cliff safe house, or to two discrete, different Oak Cliff safe houses?

D. How did you know to go to Dealey Plaza, of all the possible places for an assassination along the motorcade route?

Three ringy-dingies...

Ashton Gray

Edited by Ashton Gray
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Ashton,

Just saw your PM. If you want to get me quicker, just email me at info@jfkmurdersolved.com

I have been busy with some other research, plus other matters over the last few weeks, so I haven't dropped in for quite a while.

Also now, I came here to pick up a photo. Email me with specific questions you may have.

Wim

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Ashton,

Just saw your PM. If you want to get me quicker, just email me at info@jfkmurdersolved.com

I have been busy with some other research, plus other matters over the last few weeks, so I haven't dropped in for quite a while.

Also now, I came here to pick up a photo. Email me with specific questions you may have.

Wim

POSTED AND MAILED

Hi Wim,

Thanks. I am e-mailing this to you, with the same clear understanding that I gave to Peter Lemkin surrounding these matters: I have a firm and inviolable policy that anything sent to me on private lines that's in the public interest will be made public—in very short order. I am not, and will not become, a repository for relevant information that has strings attached dictating or restricting my use of the information, or that anyone wants me to keep "secret." Of course I respect and honor individual personal privacy, but that does not extend to important relevant information on public issues. This division seems easy for most to understand.

I prefer just to keep it in the forum. That saves me from having to reprocess information from someone else, which doubles the work.

As for "specific questions," the ones I have for the moment are the ones I've put in this thread, most of which still haven't been actually answered. I'm very appreciative to see Peter has taken the time, despite pressing situations, to post in this thread what he recently sent me in e-mail, but as you can see from his replies he doesn't have access currently to data he needs to specifically answer the questions, so has tried to help fill in some gaps where he could and narrow things down a bit.

If it will help at all, I will condense several of the questions into this one for you, which is the one I consider a high priority at the moment:

What specific information do you have on any "safe houses" in or near the Oak Cliff area of Dallas?

By "specific information," I'm hoping to get into the public record actual addresses for any or all such safe houses, the names of any persons known to have been using or associated with any of them at any time, and any dates that can be associated with them in any way (as specifically as possible).

Thanks for any help you can be on this. I'll say again that I would prefer to see you just post any such information you have (or leads to such information) directly in the forum. If it's sent to me privately, I will just post it in the forum, and I really don't need the additional traffic.

Ashton

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Four ringy-dingies...

Since I'm here, Mr. Plumlee, sitting by the lonely phone:

Isn't it true that E. Howard Hunt was at one of the safe houses in Dallas on 22 November 1963, that you knew he would be, and that you were in his presence on that day?

Isn't it also true that E. Howard Hunt was at one or more of the safe houses in Dallas on and around 8 November 1963?

If you know.

Ashton Gray

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Guest John Gillespie
Two ringy-dingies.

While I've been sitting here buffing my nails and waiting, Tosh, a few more questions kind of crept up on me. I'll do these with letters instead of numbers:

A. In your 1992 interview, you said in pertinent part: "There was 3 people got off in Garland and they were picked up about 30 minutes after we arrived there, by car. Then we took the aircraft and jumped over to Redbird Airport after the weather had cleared... . ...Everybody else got off at Redbird. John Roselli got off at Redbird and everybody went their own way." Twelve years later, in a sworn Declaration, you said in pertinent part: "While waiting out the bad weather in Garland, and about 30 minutes after landing, 3 of the passengers were picked up by car, including Roselli." Which of these conflicting stories you told about Roselli, if either, do you now say is true?

B. When CIA's Robert "Bob" Bennett briefed you, what identifying information were you given for the alleged "minimum of 19 or 20 people" your "abort team" was supposed to be looking for?

C. You say that on 22 November 1963 you went from Redbird airport by car "to the safe house over by Oak Cliff Country Club on Bar Harbor Drive" before going on to Dealey Plaza. Elsewhere, you claim to have spent some earlier period of time with Lee Harvey Oswald "in Dallas at an Oak Cliff safe house on North Beckley Street." So in these two entirely separate references to Oak Cliff safe houses in Dallas, are they references to the same Oak Cliff safe house, or to two discrete, different Oak Cliff safe houses?

D. How did you know to go to Dealey Plaza, of all the possible places for an assassination along the motorcade route?

Three ringy-dingies...

Ashton Gray

Ashton’s questions to Plumlee: Answered by Peter Lemkin [the best he can]

My harddrive that had most of this data on it crashed and the data was lost. I have a copy but not on the continent I am on…so some details I can’t supply at this moment, as I don’t remember exactly. PL

1) As specifically as you can recall, when exactly were you at the Illusionary Warfare Training in Nagshead, North Carolina with Lee Harvey Oswald and for how long?

I have that in my notes some several thousand miles/km from here..but don’t have the exact date, off hand. They, and many others, were there for short training of some weeks, I believe – max. a month.

2) What "intelligence training matters" were you and Lee Harvey Oswald engaged in there?

Plumlee and Oswald were there at overlapping times and met glancingly on ‘off-class/duty’ hours there. They never were in the same classroom at any time. They saw each other and interacted casually. They were not close, but just, with others, chummed around - so that later, when he saw him he knew he was also involved in special or black ops intelligence of some sort. Plumlee told me the general kinds of training he himself received…just your ‘basic’ Spooks 101 and 201 courses…some older guys got specialized stuff.

3) Why was Lee Harvey Oswald engaged in "intelligence training matters"?

I’m sure Plumlee would have no knowledge nor be able to guess at any particulars of Oswald’s anything there - who sent him, why, what courses he took, etc. I think he assumed, as for the other very young guys there, they were taking general intelligence training. Some took special training, but one wouldn’t know if not in their class.

4) As specifically as you can recall, when exactly were you at the Honolulu radar installation with Lee Harvey Oswald and for how long?

5) What "intelligence training matters" were you and Lee Harvey Oswald engaged in there, and why was Lee Harvey Oswald engaged in "intelligence training matters"?

6) As specifically as you can recall, when exactly were you at Oahu's Wheeler Air Force Base with Lee Harvey Oswald and for how long?

7) What "intelligence training matters" were you and Lee Harvey Oswald engaged in there, and why was Lee Harvey Oswald engaged in "intelligence training matters"?

To my knowledge the first time Oswald and Plumlee really talked alone [and then according to Plumlee NOT about any intelligence matters] was in Dallas years later on the Fourth of July 63, I believe. So, in the above questions Plumlee might know dates, [but I don’t have at my fingertips here] and would NOT, I think, have any notion on exactly what Oswald was doing at those locations…perhaps general guesses, only, from where he was working and what he was doing…but it was classified work and on a need-to-know basis. Unless one was in the same exact unit subgroup one didn’t know what another did and never talked about – even other military or intelligence persons.

8) As specifically as you can recall, when exactly were you "in Dallas at an Oak Cliff safe house on North Beckley Street run by Alpha 66's Hernandez group, who had worked out of Miami prior to the assassination" with Lee Harvey Oswald anðHæ d for how long?

I’d have that, but not with me. Jim Marrs might also have these details. I believe Plumlee was there several times over a few months…generally around the July of 1963. I also believe there were some others, but that one was the main one.

9) What "intelligence training matters" were you and Lee Harvey Oswald engaged in there, and why was Lee Harvey Oswald engaged in "intelligence training matters"?

I am not aware he saw Oswald there when he was there…nor that he has ever told me what he thought Oswald was involved in…other than intelligence work, generally.

10) You have emphasized that "we were military intelligence" going in and out of Dallas, and that the CIA were only your "support people." You later say: "As we say in CIA... ." Were you military intelligence on 21-22 November 1963, or CIA?

He gets upset when asked, but always did with me when I asked [many times]. His answer was consistent [between the anger and frustration]: I was both and more…sometimes/some days/some operations/some parts of an operation I was one, sometimes another. Sometimes I knew, sometimes I didn’t. Sometimes they wanted us to know…often they didn’t. We were black operatives moved between several entities, as needed. He also worked for some mafia bosses connected to intelligence and often seemed to be working only for them ‘on loan’ from one of the others you mention. My own feeling [and I believe his] is he was usually more Military Intel, but was also at times on loan to CIA ops and others he could only guess as to who was running them. I think on the levels above him, the definitions were as amorphous for these black operative types. They were not like contract operatives or operatives assigned to one or the other…they were floaters, foot-soldiers to be denied belonging to anyone if killed or discovered. Deniability was built in. They were told as little as possible, paid often in cash, given new ID every time, kept in the dark about the mission [except their role] and their sponsor often. On that day he was Mil. Intel to his knowledge and later in his career he was very much more CIA. But at times he was Customs, DEA, and other.

11) If you answered "military intelligence," what branch of military intelligence were you in, what was your rank and station, and who was your superior officer?

His superior changed over time. Seiwell was one. Bennett was another at another time. O’ Hare / Bishop another. He had officially been detached from the military, but did have a theoretical rank he once showed me on paper. I must admit I don’t remember it exactly and my notes are not here.

12) You say you departed from Miami and traveled to Dallas via New Orleans and Houston, and that the flight plan for 6393 Echo out of Salt Lake City, Utah around the same time to Dallas, with Roselli's name on it, was not a flight plan for your flight. You also say that CIA's Robert "Bob" Bennett briefed you on your mission. Do you have any explanation for why the other flight would have departed from Bob Bennett's home town?

13) Would you please supply the names of Secret Service agents and officials who were apprised by CIA and by your "military intelligence" branch of the threat against the President, and of your "abort team" being in the area.

He never indicated he got any such information. He was co-pilot and told very little more than about his flight plans. Even the mission was vague until they were in the air…and still not clear to him. He felt it was an abort team and was shocked when he saw the man he considered his commander in chief blown away before his eyes [and his team didn’t do their ‘job’ and were silent at the safe house and in the flight later]…he tried to ask them what went wrong and to talk about events of the day and a fight ensued in which he was told to shut-up and remember procedures - to not discuss operations nor question them. He persisted even when back at base in FL and was arrested and imprisoned for several years. In prison met by an intelligence man and told he’d not get out until he agreed not to discuss it further, with anyone.

A. In your 1992 interview, you said in pertinent part: "There was 3 people got off in Garland and they were picked up about 30 minutes after we arrived there, by car. Then we took the aircraft and jumped over to Redbird Airport after the weather had cleared... . ...Everybody else got off at Redbird. John Roselli got off at Redbird and everybody went their own way." Twelve years later, in a sworn Declaration, you said in pertinent part: "While waiting out the bad weather in Garland, and about 30 minutes after landing, 3 of the passengers were picked up by car, including Roselli." Which of these conflicting stories you told about Roselli, if either, do you now say is true?

He told me that Rosselli got off at Garland, he thought.

B. When CIA's Robert "Bob" Bennett briefed you, what identifying information were you given for the alleged "minimum of 19 or 20 people" your "abort team" was supposed to be looking for?

C. You say that on 22 November 1963 you went from Redbird airport by car "to the safe house over by Oak Cliff Country Club on Bar Harbor Drive" before going on to Dealey Plaza. Elsewhere, you claim to have spent some earlier period of time with Lee Harvey Oswald "in Dallas at an Oak Cliff safe house on North Beckley Street." So in these two entirely separate references to Oak Cliff safe houses in Dallas, are they references to the same Oak Cliff safe house, or to two discrete, different Oak Cliff safe houses?

Two separate [of which there were a few other] safe houses. The first, North Beckley, in a less plush area. The one near the country club was in a nicer upper-middle class area. I don’t have the address of the second with me. I was to it with Plumlee and Marrs. Ask Jim Marrs.

D. How did you know to go to Dealey Plaza, of all the possible places for an assassination along the motorcade route? [a very good question, Ashton!!][/b]

The plan was always to go to the plaza…..they had been given information from the briefing that was were they were to be [ie intelligence was that the possible hit team were to be there] and/or there was where 'the action' was to be. They had no other places to think of going to. Plumlee was from Dallas and knew the city well. From the minute they got to the Plaza they were [according to Plumlee] in [or trying to make] radio and visual contact with persons on the roofs, in buildings, behind the fence, in parking lot and other locations in the Plaza. [walkie-talkie was in hands of Sergio next to him] and he heard chatter between persons he both knew and didn’t know. Much confusion was what he claims to have heard.

___________________________________

Peter,

Call me crazy but I really think Gordon Arnold was somewhere at Redbird, too. There's a picture - well, ok, it's a blurry image that may as well be Mr. Rorschach himself in khaki - somewhere in my locker, over at the health club. Some say that it's one of the missing Folker flim-flam film frames.

One large LOL to your posting, Peter. It's hilarious, hits any number of bullseyes, and is worthy of a dedicated site. Thanks a zillion. But wait, I think I see Gerry Hemming at the door. He's sweating in those fatigues, as usual, and carrying some greasy weaponry. He's also got his

de rigeur fatigue-wrapped canteen that's probably full of rancid eggnog (Oh, that's just great. Probably the same stuff that I heard he doled out at the Doug Caddy Christmas party...and that was over a week ago! Well, BTW, it's my understanding that there lives not a single man, so to speak, who would want to have been downwind of that deal, Capish? Bad enough, all those people cavorting in...drab.).

Knowing Ger as we do, though, he's probably just dying to add some Plumlee-esque clarity that will put to rest any confusion. Oh, hell; let's let him in...who knows? If nothing else, maybe we can get him to tell another No-Name Key story.

Three cheers and Happy Holidays.

Yours Truly,

John G

Edited by John Gillespie
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Five ringy-dingies...

Well, Mr. Plumlee, the questions list just keeps growing, so when you do get around to picking up, here's the latest:

Who among the CIA-briefed team you flew into Dallas on 22 November 1963, on the basis that there could be an attempted assassination of the President, was assigned to "alert and prepare" (we'll just put it that way for now) the area hospital for possible traffic involving national security matters?

Pursuant to that question, did your CIA briefing include reference to National Security Advisor McGeorge Bundy in relation to the purported threat of attempted assassination, and if so, what exactly was the nature of the reference?

Ashton Gray

Edited by Ashton Gray
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