How Oswald Got To the Texas theater--maybe.

[Michael G. Smith]

I still find it intriguing that at least one of the cars bearing out-of-state plates [as seen by Bowers] was most likely registered to an individual that resided in Oak Cliff.

Regarding Oak Cliff generally and the relevant incidents therein: has anyone bothered to factor in two intel cult "safe houses" of record in Oak Cliff, or to account for their locations?

Ashton

Ashton, would one of those be the Abundant Life Temple?

Greg, I honestly don't know. Somehow, I don't think so—but it's possible. I simply cannot get answers to the specific questions I have asked about them in the thread Would Tosh Plumlee please pick up the white courtesy phone?

The information I have on them so far is pretty much embodied in the questions in that thread, but here it is again, with some augmentation I received recently:

• OAK CLIFF SAFE HOUSE #1 There purportedly was an Oak Cliff safe house "in Dallas...on North Beckley Street" in which Tosh Plumlee had spent some amount of time in the company of Lee Harvey Oswald engaged in some kind of "intelligence training matters." According to the record, this safe house was "run by Alpha 66's Hernandez group, who had worked out of Miami prior to the assassination." That's the complete record so far that I know of. I have one other somewhat vague bit of information about it that I have been sent in e-mail by Peter Lemkin (with the clear prior understanding that I do not ever receive any information on a private line that I cannot publish) but just haven't had an opportunity to post, which is that it was "in a lower class area," for whatever that's worth. Peter also said of this safe house: "Jim Marrs might also have these details. I believe Plumlee was there several times over a few months…generally around the July [sic] of 1963. I also believe there were some others [sic—safe houses?], but that one was the main one." Maybe Peter will post more on this when he has time and if he has any more specific information. Maybe Jim Marrs will join the discussion.
  OAK CLIFF SAFE HOUSE #2 There was a separate, different safe house "over by Oak Cliff Country Club on Bar Harbor Drive." Of course this is couched in intel-speak, where it is impossible from the syntax to determine whether the reference to Bar Harbor Drive is naming the street that the Oak Cliff Country Club is on, or that the safe house is on, or both. This is the safe house that Plumlee and company purportedly went through en route from and to Redbird Airport on 22 November 1963. Of that one, Peter Lemkin said: "The one near the country club was in a nicer upper-middle class area. I don’t have the address of the second with me."
  

Apparently Peter doesn't have certain records with him where he is. He didn't provide an address for the first safe house, either.

That is the totality of any reasonably useful information I have on the two Oak Cliff safe houses at issue. I've posted here what seems to augment the existing record. The one other thing Peter said that I found of interest, in response to my question to Tosh Plumlee inquiring whether there was only one Oak Cliff safe house being described or two separate Oak Cliff safe houses (it was difficult to tell initially), Peter answered in pertinent part: "Two separate [of which there were a few other] safe houses."

This indicates his knowledge of more than just the two described above. I have no information on when, where, or how he came by such knowledge on any of the safe houses. I was given no other specific information at all, even whether these "few other" safe houses were also in Oak Cliff or not. Any further information on that count will have to come from Peter Lemkin.

The original references to each of the two Oak Cliff safe houses at issue came from one source: Tosh Plumlee.

Given that the two Oak Cliff safe houses described above are in the record, and given that Peter Lemkin seems to corroborate their existence, and given that he suggests that Jim Marrs also can corroborate it, it astounds me beyond expression that any discussion of events in and immediately around Oak Cliff can take place at all without the absolute first priority being to track down every last shred of information that can be gathered from any source on these safe houses, their exact location, their owners, their uses, and personnel who inhabited or passed through them at any relevant time.

To do otherwise is to chase butterflies barefoot through a field writhing with black mambas.

Ashton

"To do otherwise is to chase butterflies barefoot through a field writhing with black mambas." Poetic. Sorry Ashton and all....Ashton, you are free to put what I sent you on the Plumlee white phone thread. Sorry it was not complete nor grammar checked. Don't mean to wax personal, but my dog is mortally ill and this is putting me nearly beyond my ability to do anything - least think clearly on these matters now, important as they are. As Ashton indicated. I have exact information on much of this, but on the other side of the planet. I had a little 'incident' back in the homeland and had to leave. I was working on just this very stuff when the phone threats and more began and much in my life fell apart. Perhaps a coincidence, perhaps not. Just prior to this Plumlee had gotten a phone call from a friend that Ted Shackley wanted to talk to him about the research 'you and Lemkin' are doing.

Jim Marrs and I were with Plumlee to the 'Country Club' area safehouse. I don't have the address on this side of the planet. Jim does for sure. I do when I can get back....or afford the crashed disk here to be read. Jim told me he was able to find others who had some knowledge of that house being a safe house. Given the area I would have thought the neighbors would wonder if a lot of single guys came in all of a sudden....but, hey, anyone can have a party on 11/22/63, or whenever.

It looked like your average American upper-middle class area...nice single houses with nice large lawns and fences....dull-normal. Jim is hard to contact and very busy..but I suggest someone in contact with him ask for the address. Sorry I don't have it on a working hard drive with me and time has made me forget. Plumlee indicated that the other 'Alpha-66' safe house was where everyone says it was. There were some others, but that was the central one. Others were overflow or satellite ones..or maybe just private apartments of those who were connected. Plumlee claims to have been there a few times and interacted with those inside both there and around the town. I do NOT recall him saying he ever met Oswald there. He does claim to have met Oswald in Dallas a few times and one time he remembers clearly was he and Lee setting off fireworks on the Fourth of July. I asked Marina, but she delined to identify Plumlee's picture, or such an incident....I'll let you draw your own conclusions. I consider Marina someone I like, a friend and very nice person who has suffered much, but also not always reliable on these matters for many complex reasons.

The question remains if this safe house near the golf course was known to those in the Alpha-66 safe house - or run by two completely different groups or just as operatinal proceedure kept unknown to the others. It might have been used just the once as a safe house on 11/22, for all we know. It was, according to Tosh, just a nice middle-class house inside as if someONE family was 'living' there. It would be interesting to know who. Ask Jim. According to Plumlee nothing his group did [to his knowledge] was assicated with the other safe house that day. He [Plumlee] was instructed, in fact back in FL, to stay in the safe house and NOT to go anywhere awaiting his role to fly out some people later in the day [one of which he thought was likely to be Oswald...but only becuase of a hint given and a nick-name...not a definite identification of whom]. In fact, according to Plumlee he broke his operational instructions because he wanted to see JFK and went along with Sergio to the Plaza. He liked JFK and considered him his Commander-in-chief.

Bar Harbor Drive was the street associated with the Golf and Country Club. The safe house was a few street away.

Over and out for now. Peter

Hey guys, Believe me, Im no expert by any means on this or any subject, but i do remember reading a while ago about a 'safe house' over by the Dallas Zoo. I dont know if this is true, or if its one you are talking about already, but i figured i would mention it. Being in a 'run down area' may qualify for this safe house, as the area around the Zoo, from what i have seen, isnt the "Marthas Vineyard" type of area. Hope this helps, if not, forget i sent it! FWIW

thanks-smitty

[Ashton Gray]

Ashton, you are free to put what I sent you on the Plumlee white phone thread. Sorry it was not complete nor grammar checked. Don't mean to wax personal, but my dog is mortally ill and this is putting me nearly beyond my ability to do anything - least think clearly on these matters now, important as they are.

Peter, thanks for taking the time to post this in spite of what you're dealing with there, and for having now posted your answers in the Would Tosh Plumlee please pick up the white courtesy phone thread. I've been trying to get around to getting them formatted on your behalf and posted there, but I think it's altogether better that they came directly from you anyway.

As Ashton indicated. I have exact information on much of this, but on the other side of the planet. I had a little 'incident' back in the homeland and had to leave. I was working on just this very stuff when the phone threats and more began and much in my life fell apart. Perhaps a coincidence, perhaps not. Just prior to this Plumlee had gotten a phone call from a friend that Ted Shackley wanted to talk to him about the research 'you and Lemkin' are doing.

I certainly didn't intentionally mean to raise issues that would put anyone at any risk (including my own sweet self), but it doesn't surprise me that getting to specific information on these safe houses might be akin to walking a rotted log stretched across the fires of Hell.

I'd like to touch on a few items of interest:

Jim Marrs and I were with Plumlee to the 'Country Club' area safehouse. I don't have the address on this side of the planet. Jim does for sure. ...Jim is hard to contact and very busy..but I suggest someone in contact with him ask for the address.

Is there anyone who can get in touch with Jim Marrs by any means and get the actual address of this safe house into the record? Please?

Plumlee indicated that the other 'Alpha-66' safe house was where everyone says it was.

Well, there's a jaw-dropper. Who is "everyone," and where does "everyone" say it was? I've yet to find a specific location for it, and until both of these safe houses are plotted precisely on a map of Oak Hill, along with locations and paths of infamous incidents in and around Oak Hill, it seems to me to be playing Monopoly on half a board. (Missing "GO!")

Plumlee claims to have been there a few times and interacted with those inside both there and around the town. I do NOT recall him saying he ever met Oswald there.

Here is the relevant quote from Plumlee. Parse, slice-and-dice it any way you like. It looks to me like that's exactly what he said (emphasis added):

• When I later learned that Oswald had been arrested as the lone assassin, I remembered having met him on a number of previous occasions which were connected with intelligence training matters, first at Illusionary Warfare Training in Nagshead, North Carolina, then in Honolulu at a radar installation and at Oahu's Wheeler Air Force Base, then in Dallas at an Oak Cliff safe house on North Beckley Street run by Alpha 66's Hernandez group, who had worked out of Miami prior to the assassination.
  —Tosh Plumlee forum post 1 October 2006
  

I'm getting not infrequent updates from someone who's timelining this particular set of data, and I've just gotten a raw dump of some additional data on this from the Plumlee 1992 interview. It's very confused and needs to be pulled apart, but for the moment I'm just going to dump it in here and do the pulling later, or maybe somebody else can help clarify it, but it goes to your statements about other safe houses in the Oak Cliff area, including the zoo reference that Smitty just mentioned in the post above:

• TOSH PLUMLEE: Yes, in '62 when I came back into Dallas area, that, through the Dallas Cubans over on, not Harlendale Street, but there was a "safe" house here in Dallas, Oak Cliff, two of'em. There was a small two bedroom frame type house that was located in Oak Cliff not far from the zoo where the old inner urban track used to go through, I mean there's a highline down through there now, at that place and then I think it was Zang's Blvd. there used to be "safe" house there that was run by Hernandez out of Miami that had connections with Alpha 66 at one point that se up a "safe" house for Dallas Cubans that were filtrating out of the Miami area. Oswald, from those two "safe" houses, I went to another "safe" house and that "safe" house was directly behind where Oswald had rented a room, in the alley, and I carved my initials on the draining board up there at that time and that was a gun running operation and Oswald was renting the front house. I saw him there briefly but did not talk to him.
  Q: Is that the house he lived in when the assassination occurred?
  TOSH PLUMLEE: I'm not sure of the dates. Researchers would have to get the dates but this was just prior.. I had just came in from flying Roselli and John Martino from Houston to Galvezton and my next trip was from Houston back to Dallas so that would have been around June of '63, or no...before June...it would have been around April or May of '63.
  

Several interesting points are emerging in the timelining of this, but for this thread, of particualr interest is the fact that Oswald left Dallas on 24 April 1963 for New Orleans—according to the record. I won't woffle here on what that does in the timelining of what Plumlee says in the above passage, but will post the results when I get them sent to me. However, it does go directly to your next interesting point:

He does claim to have met Oswald in Dallas a few times and one time he remembers clearly was he and Lee setting off fireworks on the Fourth of July. I asked Marina, but she delined to identify Plumlee's picture, or such an incident....I'll let you draw your own conclusions.

I prefer to present organized data and leave conclusions until the last act. And the data I have either argues hard against this purported 4th of July incident, or opens up a previously hidden corridor. There are only two possible years: 1962 and 1963. In early July 1962, the Oswalds ostensibly were in Fort Worth, Texas, living with Robert. In July 1963, the Oswalds purportedly were in New Orleans, Lee Harvey Oswald working at the Reily Coffee Company. We have a problem.

I'll leave this here for the moment. Thank you very much for your help.

Ashton

Edited December 16, 2006 by Ashton Gray

[Jack White]

Tosh's safe house is at the rear of 1026 North Beckley, facing the alley,

only about 50 feet from Oswald's room. It has never been properly

investigated. There are other mysteries about 1026 and its owners and

residents. As I recall, Bertha Cheek was sister of Earline Roberts, and

was connected to Jack Ruby, Harry Olson and others. Small world.

Jack

[Ashton Gray]

Tosh's safe house is at the rear of 1026 North Beckley, facing the alley,

only about 50 feet from Oswald's room. It has never been properly

investigated. There are other mysteries about 1026 and its owners and

residents. As I recall, Bertha Cheek was sister of Earline Roberts, and

was connected to Jack Ruby, Harry Olson and others. Small world.

Jack

Bless you, Jack.

Ashton

[Robert Howard]

I still find it intriguing that at least one of the cars bearing out-of-state plates [as seen by Bowers] was most likely registered to an individual that resided in Oak Cliff.

Regarding Oak Cliff generally and the relevant incidents therein: has anyone bothered to factor in two intel cult "safe houses" of record in Oak Cliff, or to account for their locations?

Ashton

Ashton, would one of those be the Abundant Life Temple?

Greg, I honestly don't know. Somehow, I don't think so—but it's possible. I simply cannot get answers to the specific questions I have asked about them in the thread Would Tosh Plumlee please pick up the white courtesy phone?

The information I have on them so far is pretty much embodied in the questions in that thread, but here it is again, with some augmentation I received recently:

• OAK CLIFF SAFE HOUSE #1 There purportedly was an Oak Cliff safe house "in Dallas...on North Beckley Street" in which Tosh Plumlee had spent some amount of time in the company of Lee Harvey Oswald engaged in some kind of "intelligence training matters." According to the record, this safe house was "run by Alpha 66's Hernandez group, who had worked out of Miami prior to the assassination." That's the complete record so far that I know of. I have one other somewhat vague bit of information about it that I have been sent in e-mail by Peter Lemkin (with the clear prior understanding that I do not ever receive any information on a private line that I cannot publish) but just haven't had an opportunity to post, which is that it was "in a lower class area," for whatever that's worth. Peter also said of this safe house: "Jim Marrs might also have these details. I believe Plumlee was there several times over a few months…generally around the July [sic] of 1963. I also believe there were some others [sic—safe houses?], but that one was the main one." Maybe Peter will post more on this when he has time and if he has any more specific information. Maybe Jim Marrs will join the discussion.
  OAK CLIFF SAFE HOUSE #2 There was a separate, different safe house "over by Oak Cliff Country Club on Bar Harbor Drive." Of course this is couched in intel-speak, where it is impossible from the syntax to determine whether the reference to Bar Harbor Drive is naming the street that the Oak Cliff Country Club is on, or that the safe house is on, or both. This is the safe house that Plumlee and company purportedly went through en route from and to Redbird Airport on 22 November 1963. Of that one, Peter Lemkin said: "The one near the country club was in a nicer upper-middle class area. I don’t have the address of the second with me."
  

Apparently Peter doesn't have certain records with him where he is. He didn't provide an address for the first safe house, either.

That is the totality of any reasonably useful information I have on the two Oak Cliff safe houses at issue. I've posted here what seems to augment the existing record. The one other thing Peter said that I found of interest, in response to my question to Tosh Plumlee inquiring whether there was only one Oak Cliff safe house being described or two separate Oak Cliff safe houses (it was difficult to tell initially), Peter answered in pertinent part: "Two separate [of which there were a few other] safe houses."

This indicates his knowledge of more than just the two described above. I have no information on when, where, or how he came by such knowledge on any of the safe houses. I was given no other specific information at all, even whether these "few other" safe houses were also in Oak Cliff or not. Any further information on that count will have to come from Peter Lemkin.

The original references to each of the two Oak Cliff safe houses at issue came from one source: Tosh Plumlee.

Given that the two Oak Cliff safe houses described above are in the record, and given that Peter Lemkin seems to corroborate their existence, and given that he suggests that Jim Marrs also can corroborate it, it astounds me beyond expression that any discussion of events in and immediately around Oak Cliff can take place at all without the absolute first priority being to track down every last shred of information that can be gathered from any source on these safe houses, their exact location, their owners, their uses, and personnel who inhabited or passed through them at any relevant time.

To do otherwise is to chase butterflies barefoot through a field writhing with black mambas.

Ashton

"To do otherwise is to chase butterflies barefoot through a field writhing with black mambas." Poetic. Sorry Ashton and all....Ashton, you are free to put what I sent you on the Plumlee white phone thread. Sorry it was not complete nor grammar checked. Don't mean to wax personal, but my dog is mortally ill and this is putting me nearly beyond my ability to do anything - least think clearly on these matters now, important as they are. As Ashton indicated. I have exact information on much of this, but on the other side of the planet. I had a little 'incident' back in the homeland and had to leave. I was working on just this very stuff when the phone threats and more began and much in my life fell apart. Perhaps a coincidence, perhaps not. Just prior to this Plumlee had gotten a phone call from a friend that Ted Shackley wanted to talk to him about the research 'you and Lemkin' are doing.

Jim Marrs and I were with Plumlee to the 'Country Club' area safehouse. I don't have the address on this side of the planet. Jim does for sure. I do when I can get back....or afford the crashed disk here to be read. Jim told me he was able to find others who had some knowledge of that house being a safe house. Given the area I would have thought the neighbors would wonder if a lot of single guys came in all of a sudden....but, hey, anyone can have a party on 11/22/63, or whenever.

It looked like your average American upper-middle class area...nice single houses with nice large lawns and fences....dull-normal. Jim is hard to contact and very busy..but I suggest someone in contact with him ask for the address. Sorry I don't have it on a working hard drive with me and time has made me forget. Plumlee indicated that the other 'Alpha-66' safe house was where everyone says it was. There were some others, but that was the central one. Others were overflow or satellite ones..or maybe just private apartments of those who were connected. Plumlee claims to have been there a few times and interacted with those inside both there and around the town. I do NOT recall him saying he ever met Oswald there. He does claim to have met Oswald in Dallas a few times and one time he remembers clearly was he and Lee setting off fireworks on the Fourth of July. I asked Marina, but she delined to identify Plumlee's picture, or such an incident....I'll let you draw your own conclusions. I consider Marina someone I like, a friend and very nice person who has suffered much, but also not always reliable on these matters for many complex reasons.

The question remains if this safe house near the golf course was known to those in the Alpha-66 safe house - or run by two completely different groups or just as operatinal proceedure kept unknown to the others. It might have been used just the once as a safe house on 11/22, for all we know. It was, according to Tosh, just a nice middle-class house inside as if someONE family was 'living' there. It would be interesting to know who. Ask Jim. According to Plumlee nothing his group did [to his knowledge] was assicated with the other safe house that day. He [Plumlee] was instructed, in fact back in FL, to stay in the safe house and NOT to go anywhere awaiting his role to fly out some people later in the day [one of which he thought was likely to be Oswald...but only becuase of a hint given and a nick-name...not a definite identification of whom]. In fact, according to Plumlee he broke his operational instructions because he wanted to see JFK and went along with Sergio to the Plaza. He liked JFK and considered him his Commander-in-chief.

Bar Harbor Drive was the street associated with the Golf and Country Club. The safe house was a few street away.

Over and out for now. Peter

Hey guys, Believe me, Im no expert by any means on this or any subject, but i do remember reading a while ago about a 'safe house' over by the Dallas Zoo. I dont know if this is true, or if its one you are talking about already, but i figured i would mention it. Being in a 'run down area' may qualify for this safe house, as the area around the Zoo, from what i have seen, isnt the "Marthas Vineyard" type of area. Hope this helps, if not, forget i sent it! FWIW

thanks-smitty

Being a Dallasite, I find the above comment re: Martha's Vineyard to be hilarious; I do not believe that there is anything in Dallas that is comparable to Martha's Vineyard unless you have a gifted imagination and go to a nearby lake and pretend real hard, lol.

[sorry, I am never able to check every topic thread or.......] I would have responded sooner; basically what Greg posted earlier are the basic facts on Car 107 and that information came from John Armstrong's Harvey & Lee, to say such a piece of information put's a dent in another "official version of event's" seems beyond question.

While I appreciate being appreciated, I must say the topic of safehouse's in Dallas is not a strength in my knowledge of events of the JFK Assassination although the Abundant Life Temple is certainly something to ponder. [As well as any other place being discussed, as long as it's real, Jim Marrs probably knows more about that angle than anyone I can think of]

At the risk of sounding a little non-mainstream regarding the Oak Cliff events after Oswald came home from work, dare I mention that a safehouse might not even be the ONLY "place" where circumstances affecting the sequence of events being discussed could have originated from.

In a criminal investigation any possibility is considered based on the methodism of criminal investigation, so.....one does not dismiss or write off possibilities, under the premise of not being "a popular view," or, "in my opinion that is not credible."

Subsequently there is one area where there could be a assimilation of a CIA safehouse, hitherto never considered....There were in 1963 Dallas a very large number of masonic lodges.....some of thise lodges were in the very same area that come into play when covering the subject of Oswald's movements in Oak Cliff after the Tippit shooting, and his entry into the Texas Theater.....

The address for the Texas Theater: 231 West Jefferson.....

There were several Masonic Lodges in 1963 Dallas with the address 611 ½ E. 10th St which is..... appx. 0.8.....miles from the Texas Theater....

See: http://maps.yahoo.com/beta/#tp=undefined&tt=231+W.+Jefferson+St+Dallas%2C+Texas&mvt=m&q2=

231+W.+Jefferson+St+Dallas%2C+Texas&q1=611+E.+10th+St.+Dallas%2C

+Texas+&trf=0&lon=-96.8203&lat=32.745901&mag=3

They were:

Walker Lodge No 7 [iOOF]

Rebecca Lodge

Oak Temple No 301

Lisbon Friendship Lodge

The entry below might get a few heads scratching, he was not 'a big JFK Fan.'

George B. Dealey Masonic Lodge 4112 W. Jefferson Ave.....

Whatever esoteric activities took place there...... I don't think a big pat on the back would have been extended to devotees of the New Frontier.......

Some reactions to my posting this will be 'why would he do that,' the Freemason's yeah right...what's next UFO's....

Answer: I am not suggesting anything, I am pointing out that there is quite a large difference between the concept of supposition and the application of comcept's such as criminal investigation, means, motives opportunities.....Noel Twyman has a background in engineering, P.D Scott a former Candian diplomat turned academic par excellence....Jim Garrison was a D.A., Jim Marrs------investigative journalism.

Q. Is anything possible?

A. Is Walt Disney cyrogenetically frozen?

Edited December 16, 2006 by Robert Howard

[William Kelly]

I'm glad the Pope of Oak Cliff - RH checked in, I was beginning to worry about him.

In reading Peter Lance's Triple Cross, he discusses Able Danger, the DOD computer operation that pinpointed the al Qaeda operatives in the USA from Open Source information - driving licenses, utility bills, news reports, obits, etc.

We could, using the same commercial software, like Ashton apparently has access to, and reverse the process - using the Able Danger comptuer techniques on cars - homes - telephones, etc. of subjects in the JFK assassination.

The ownership and leases of the safe-houses, apartments is certainly pertinent. Besides the Oak Cliff Safe Houses, there's Oswald's New Orleans apartment on Magazine Street, which may have been owned by William McLaney.

Tracing the cars, like the owners of homes and property, could also be applied to the DPD #107, Michael and Ruth Paine's cars, Carl Mather's Plymouth, the Rambler Station Wagon, and the cars that are noted on the MC CIA survillance reports.

While the Able Danger records were reportedly destroyed because of possible infringement of people's personal rights, this excuse couldn't be applied to a criminal homicide investigation.

And I didn't put too much credence into the sale of DPD #107 until Gary Mack sent me a bunch of messages pointing out that Dale Meyers already solved the mystery of the two men who beeped their horn outside of LHO's rooming house in DPD #107 shortly before Tippitt was killed.

GM says that it is DPD policy to remove the DPD car numbers when a police car is sold to the public, and that the DPD followed their standard operating procedures in allowing for LHO to be killed as well.

Gary says that all this has been already addressed and answered by Dale Meyers in "With Malice."

But contrary to Gary's allegation "You didn't read Dales book," I did read Dale's book when it first came out, discussed it with a college class and with Dale when he was signing copies at the 6th Floor bookstore - and I've quoted the section on Carl Mather as an example of his duplicity - that is with the intention of being intentionally deceptive.

Since I donated my copy of Dale's book to the COPA Archives in DC, will somebody please post DM's solution to the mystery of the two cops in DPD #107. My own theory is that it was Jake and Elwood - the Blues Brothers.

But now I'm developing my own theory on Gary Mack - the trivial items that he makes the most effort to conform with the party line are the weakest links in the chain that should be looked at more closely.

Therefore the details of DPD #107 are probably significant and we can't leave it to DM to tell us what he's found down that alley.

BK

Edited December 16, 2006 by William Kelly

[Ashton Gray]

But now I'm developing my own theory on Gary Mack - the trivial items that he makes the most effort to conform with the party line are the weakest links in the chain that should be looked at more closely.

Therefore the details of DPD #107 are probably significant and we can't leave it to DM to tell us what he's found down that alley.

Nor can we allow the Curious Case of the DPD Communications Secretary Who Went to the Celebrity Ball to slide out of sight.

How did her invitation arrive before the mail that day?

Ashton

[Robert Howard]

I'm glad the Pope of Oak Cliff - RH checked in, I was beginning to worry about him.

In reading Peter Lance's Triple Cross, he discusses Able Danger, the DOD computer operation that pinpointed the al Qaeda operatives in the USA from Open Source information - driving licenses, utility bills, news reports, obits, etc.

We could, using the same commercial software, like Ashton apparently has access to, and reverse the process - using the Able Danger comptuer techniques on cars - homes - telephones, etc. of subjects in the JFK assassination.

The ownership and leases of the safe-houses, apartments is certainly pertinent. Besides the Oak Cliff Safe Houses, there's Oswald's New Orleans apartment on Magazine Street, which may have been owned by William McLaney.

Tracing the cars, like the owners of homes and property, could also be applied to the DPD #107, Michael and Ruth Paine's cars, Carl Mather's Plymouth, the Rambler Station Wagon, and the cars that are noted on the MC CIA survillance reports.

While the Able Danger records were reportedly destroyed because of possible infringement of people's personal rights, this excuse couldn't be applied to a criminal homicide investigation.

And I didn't put too much credence into the sale of DPD #107 until Gary Mack sent me a bunch of messages pointing out that Dale Meyers already solved the mystery of the two men who beeped their horn outside of LHO's rooming house in DPD #107 shortly before Tippitt was killed.

GM says that it is DPD policy to remove the DPD car numbers when a police car is sold to the public, and that the DPD followed their standard operating procedures in allowing for LHO to be killed as well.

Gary says that all this has been already addressed and answered by Dale Meyers in "With Malice."

But contrary to Gary's allegation "You didn't read Dales book," I did read Dale's book when it first came out, discussed it with a college class and with Dale when he was signing copies at the 6th Floor bookstore - and I've quoted the section on Carl Mather as an example of his duplicity - that is with the intention of being intentionally deceptive.

Since I donated my copy of Dale's book to the COPA Archives in DC, will somebody please post DM's solution to the mystery of the two cops in DPD #107. My own theory is that it was Jake and Elwood - the Blues Brothers.

But now I'm developing my own theory on Gary Mack - the trivial items that he makes the most effort to conform with the party line are the weakest links in the chain that should be looked at more closely.

Therefore the details of DPD #107 are probably significant and we can't leave it to DM to tell us what he's found down that alley.

BK

I would take the statement that "Dale Meyers already solved the mystery of the two men who beeped their horn outside of LHO's rooming house in DPD #107 shortly before Tippitt was killed," with a huge grain of salt, I have perused With Malice, [as well as the website] and....frankly it was written in such a manner, that....well...I've never described one's writing style as "agenda driven," but I suppose there is a first time for everything

....I'll put it this way, if the esteemed Gary Mack was on target in his assertion 'it wouldn't be necessary for him to inform Forum members of that fact'.....Oh and Gary....next time you get the urge to question something I've posted on the Forum, DON'T. I had more than enough of hall monitors when I was in elementary school....

Edited December 16, 2006 by Robert Howard

[Robin Finn]

Bill,

When you write about "cars that are noted on the MC CIA surveillance reports," do you mean the cars with Texas plates that Silvia Duran was seen inside of in January,1963?

[William Kelly]

Bill,

When you write about "cars that are noted on the MC CIA surveillance reports," do you mean the cars with Texas plates that Silvia Duran was seen inside of in January,1963?

Robin, Yes, that was one that I was thinking of. There are reports of a Renault in MC and then on Sept. 24 of a Renault near Gulf station in Oak Cliff, that RH has some docs on.

Plus these:

104-10307-10060 (15-Oct-1963): LOG:FILM NO. 260/PHOTO NUMBERS, HOUR AND VIEW pg 1

Found in: LA Division Work File

: 104-10307-10060 RECORD SERIES : JFK AGENCY FILE NUMBER : LA DIV WORK FILE DOCUMENT INFORMATION ORIGINATOR : CIA FROM TO TITLE : LOG:FILM NO. 260/PHOTO NUMBERS, HOUR AND VIEW DATE : 10/15/63 PAGES...104-10307-10060 (15-Oct-1963): LOG:FILM NO. 260/PHOTO NUMBERS, HOUR AND VIEW pg 2

Found in: LA Division Work File

. 15/63 v.~ Hour View.. 1S (fiea i63 A. Armona Ramos arrived.. Raul Aparicio arrived., Lady arriving in a taxi, she went-in. Man sent to the ()consulate . Men who arrived in D-19 with E... Azcue...104-10307-10060 (15-Oct-1963): LOG:FILM NO. 260/PHOTO NUMBERS, HOUR AND VIEW pg 3

Found in: LA Division Work File

U 33 34 35 36 32 10:37 10:40 10:47 11:00 .11:05 Mangy sent to the Consulate. .11:07 Qent to the Consulate.. 11:15 11: 30 22 23 24 25 26 27 9:15 Lady who came 'in a car plate number 13--79.43 delivere a big package -which was taken inside by the porte...

[Duke Lane]

...The entry below might get a few heads scratching, he was not 'a big JFK Fan.'

George B. Dealey Masonic Lodge 4112 W. Jefferson Ave.....

Robert, no offense, but one would think that a Dallasite would know that George Bannerman Dealey - having been born in 1859, having founded the Dallas Morning News in 1881, and died in 1946 (the year, as I recall, JFK was first elected to Congress from a small state northeast by about 1800 miles and not of much concern to folks in Dallas) - probably didn't have much of an opinion one way or the other about JFK.

[Robert Howard]

...The entry below might get a few heads scratching, he was not 'a big JFK Fan.'

George B. Dealey Masonic Lodge 4112 W. Jefferson Ave.....

Robert, no offense, but one would think that a Dallasite would know that George Bannerman Dealey - having been born in 1859, having founded the Dallas Morning News in 1881, and died in 1946 (the year, as I recall, JFK was first elected to Congress from a small state northeast by about 1800 miles and not of much concern to folks in Dallas) - probably didn't have much of an opinion one way or the other about JFK.

Yes, Duke you have astutely discovered my mistake, the text is, obviously incorrect in its premise, and was supposed to be a notation of the irony of there being a masonic lodge named after a member of the Dealey family, after George Bannerman's death his widow stepped down as chairman of the Board of Directors. if I understand correctly their son Ted, around that time took over as publisher and he; was not a big fan of JFK if I did understand that to be correct.

Edited December 20, 2006 by Robert Howard

[Robert Howard]

Duplicate Post

Edited December 20, 2006 by Robert Howard

[James Richards]

It's probably worth mentioning that the treasurer of the George B. Dealey Masonic Lodge was D.H. Byrd's business associate, Jack Frost.

In 1969, Ted Dealey was named to the National Honorary Board of Trustees of the American Academy of Achievement. Amongst the Academy's Board of Governors was Gordon McLendon.

In 1960, Ted Dealey was given the Poage Award as the Humanitarian of the Year. For several years, Dealey had been the area representative for Guide Dogs for the Blind. Amongst those involved in the behind the scenes animal training and breeding assistance, was Roy Truly.

FWIW.

Ted Dealey below.

James

Edited December 20, 2006 by James Richards

[Duke Lane]

Yes, Duke you have astutely discovered my mistake, the text is, obviously incorrect in its premise, and was supposed to be a notation of the irony of there being a Masonic lodge named after a member of the Dealey family, after George Bannerman's death his widow stepped down as chairman of the Board of Directors. if I understand correctly their son Ted, around that time took over as publisher and he was not a big fan of JFK if I did understand that to be correct.

I know for a fact, from informed sources, that at the very moment I was posting my own snide comments, you were amending your previous post, and for my haste, I apologize!

You are also correct that it was son Ted who was no fan of JFK, commenting at one point - during a dinner at the White House in 1961 or '62 - that (paraphrasing) "what the country was looking for was a man on a horse to lead them, and instead got someone riding Caroline's tricycle." Hard to imagine such a guy allowing black-bordered ads in his newspaper at the time, isn't it?

Interestingly enough, I was recently in a home designed and built originally for G.B. Dealey's family in Highland Park by a famous architect whose name I can't recall. It is currently going for about $8 million, with about 10,000 square feet of the original home. An amazing architectural feat. It is no longer in Dallas, having already been moved twice. The agent selling it was somewhat surprised by its pedigree beyond the architect. Email me and I'll show you part of it.

I was surprised to recently learn that the current - and ever! - owner of the Morning News, the Belo Corporation, is and always was a part of the News' heritage. I'd always thought it to be a conglomerate that took over the News, but found instead that Belo was the guy who set Dealey up in the first place as his managing editor in Dallas. When Belo died, his widow encouraged George to take control of the company's interests, which he did. Still, the controlling interests lie with the Belo family, and not that of the Dealeys. (Don't, however, be fooled into thinking that the Dealeys suffered for that decision!)

As best as I've ever been able to discover, it was only Ted Dealey who ever brought any sort of disfavor upon the family name (not including Jerry, whose association with this topic is no doubt anathema to the clan ... but he is only a somewhat-distant relative), and that only in connection with his anti-Kennedy - and generally right-wing - rhetoric: business-wise, he did quite well for the paper and the Belos.

That the Masons of Dallas found it appropriate to canonize GB by naming a Lodge in his honor is no particular surprise (witness also another local publisher's prominence in another Lodge in Fort Worth, one Amon G. Carter ... and Ben E. Keith, too, if you follow that sort of thing), tho' perhaps not "PC" in today's climate even absent the events that took place in the plaza also named in his honor. You will find many "named Lodges" in Masonry to be after prominent - and especially beneficient - citizens of the community, which by all accounts, GB was.

I think it's the Bible that says that "the sons of a father should not be visited upon the son," or words to that effect. Likewise - and even more importantly - the sins of the son should not be visited upon the father. Ted was a jerk and a redneck (even despite his privileged upbringing): machts nichts in terms of this topic.

As to James Richards' claim that "the treasurer of the George B. Dealey Masonic Lodge was D.H. Byrd's business associate, Jack Frost," I will check that first part out. I will post a link to a photo (supposedly) of Roy Truly, dog breeder, when I have a chance and am able to find it.