Low trajectory shot to the chrome trim

[Robin Unger]

You can see the top of the visor in the reflection on the under portion of the trim, so that part is angled away. The image shows a thorised trim-profile right inset.

The edge of the trim profile runs roughly through the centre of the dent.

The right corner of the bracket for the visor rods is bent out and down.

The edge of the visor appears torn and marked(inset of left visor edge next to right visor for comparison. red line outline of visor edge when turned up and blue outline of left visor,

Fragment ricochet hits visor bracket and then Kennedy in the throat???

Robin, your photo in post #15, I assume is from Love field? If it isnt, do you know where it was at when taken? If it is from Love Field, I beleive you have the very proof needed to blow Specter away. From what can be seen in your photo, it looks straight and normal from what can be seen of it. If it is from L/Field, that is the best photo I have seen yet. I tried to find as many photos as I could years ago to prove this fact of it being hit, but most photos never really showed anything of value back then. If anyone else has anything showing the limo, at anytime during his Texas trip, please post them for us all to see. I will continue to look for the explanation they gave for the dent being there prior to the assassination. They positively assured everyone that the dent was there prior to Dallas, and had nothing to do with any shots. [LOL!] Thanks again for sharing your great photo collection with us all. -smitty

Hi Michael.

Yes it was taken at Love field.

I think it may be a Dillard photo. ?

If you look in the side window on the right side of the car, you can see the crowd of spectators behind the fence.

Edited January 14, 2007 by Robin Unger

[John Dolva]

a suggestion of three points of damage. (ignore the little head on top left corner it's a software TM)

It's hard to say but on some z frames it seems the visor points more upright after the stemmons sign. On some of the earlier photos it is definitely more down than the driver side.Others not.

Edited January 14, 2007 by John Dolva

[Bernice Moore]

Here are two photos from Fort Worth....of the Limo......enlarged and lightened, I do not see any damage.but ????

B

[Ron Ecker]

SS agent Morgan Gies was in charge of SS vehicles in the White House garage. SS Chief Rowley wrote the following to WC General Counsel Rankin in a memo dated 1/6/64:

"SA Gies, who was responsible for the care and maintenance of this vehicle, believes that this damage was on this car prior to November 22, 1963, and it is his recollection that the damage was done in New York at the Empire Garage (Lincoln-Mercury Dealer) on November 1, 1961. Gies thinks the damage was done while he and employees of the Empire Garage were removing the 'header' on the leatherette top to make repairs to the crank which secures the convertible top in place on this vehicle. If this was the case, no effort was made to repair the dent prior to the assassination.

"Mr. Paul Michel, Service Director of the Empire Garage, who was present and assisted during those repairs, in an interview said that he did not remember that any damage occurred during those repairs but that it is very possible that it could have happened as a crank had broken off in the area. The repairs were done hastily since the car was needed to transport the President, and this slight damage might have gone unnoticed by him. It may be significant to mention here that this photograph accentuates the damage. This indentation is so slight that it could pass unnoticed in ordinary viewing of the area, especially since the sunvisors, being in a horizontal position most of the time, would frequently cut out the view of this portion of the frame."

[Robin Unger]

Here are two photos from Fort Worth....of the Limo......enlarged and lightened, I do not see any damage.but ????

B

Thanks Bernice.

I have been looking for two days trying to find that first Fort Worth image you posted.

The copies i have don't have good enough resolution.

[Bernice Moore]

Here is another Robin, better I believe, this is also from Fort Worth, shows

Nellies head.I have enlarged and lightened it, no damage..

B.

Edited January 14, 2007 by Bernice Moore

[Myra Bronstein]

I'm sure Arlen Specter could add that dent to the doings of the good ole "magic" bullet. It must have bounced off of Connaly's wrist onto the chrome trim and back into Connaly's thigh.

From what I understand, from past readings, was that they stated the dent was "already there" from a previous "mishap" while working or servicing the limo. [i could be mistaken here] I tried to check all the photos I could from that day, from Love field to Dealey Plaza, and I havent found anything close up enough to see if it was there or not. Im sure, as most of you, that it was hit during the shooting. Maybe you have some good photos of the limo in your collection Robin? If so, please post them for us. I also agree with you as to the hit. It appears to be hit from the right side, low trajectory, in a slight upward strike. Just my opinion FWIW.

thanks-smitty

Correct. It was already there from an earlier motorcade episode wherein SA Greer saw President Kennedy in the rear view mirror and shot on reflex.

[Robin Unger]

SS agent Morgan Gies was in charge of SS vehicles in the White House garage. SS Chief Rowley wrote the following to WC General Counsel Rankin in a memo dated 1/6/64:

"SA Gies, who was responsible for the care and maintenance of this vehicle, believes that this damage was on this car prior to November 22, 1963, and it is his recollection that the damage was done in New York at the Empire Garage (Lincoln-Mercury Dealer) on November 1, 1961. Gies thinks the damage was done while he and employees of the Empire Garage were removing the 'header' on the leatherette top to make repairs to the crank which secures the convertible top in place on this vehicle. If this was the case, no effort was made to repair the dent prior to the assassination.

"Mr. Paul Michel, Service Director of the Empire Garage, who was present and assisted during those repairs, in an interview said that he did not remember that any damage occurred during those repairs but that it is very possible that it could have happened as a crank had broken off in the area. The repairs were done hastily since the car was needed to transport the President, and this slight damage might have gone unnoticed by him. It may be significant to mention here that this photograph accentuates the damage. This indentation is so slight that it could pass unnoticed in ordinary viewing of the area, especially since the sunvisors, being in a horizontal position most of the time, would frequently cut out the view of this portion of the frame."

Thanks for that info Ron.

[Robin Unger]

Looking at this image i would think that even if the visor was pushed all the way up, that the bullet "impact dent" should still be visible, even though some of the trim damage to it's right may be blocked by Kellerman's sun visor.

[Myra Bronstein]

Here is another Robin, better I believe, this is also from Fort Worth, shows

Nellies head.I have enlarged and lightened it, no damage..

B.

Nice work Bernice. Thank you.

It's amazing what bullxxxx we're expected to believe.

Hell, if there really were a prior incident that damaged the interior of the presidential limo--then the SS looks even more "inept."

[John Dolva]

from the whitehouse garage a day or so later. Maybe on a copy with a better resolution where the confusing reflections are easier to understand, the depth of the dent can be seen.

[Jack White]

a suggestion of three points of damage. (ignore the little head on top left corner it's a software TM)

It's hard to say but on some z frames it seems the visor points more upright after the stemmons sign. On some of the earlier photos it is definitely more down than the driver side.Others not.

GOOD WORK. John...this seems conclusive to me! The damage was NOT there earlier.

Jack

[John Dolva]

Thank you Jack. Just to clear up one possible cause for misunderstanding. I wouldn't have seen it as conclusive, so I wonder if you mean my animation? If so, it's a suggestion or a manufactured before, derived from various images posted, and overlaid on the real damage. IMO it helps to better see the damage. I think it's possible to see that the right visors rod sits lower than the left one as if it's support (the bracket ) has indeed been damaged. The gif doesn't show that drop as I didn't see it before making the gif, but the image Robin posted does (IMO). (perhaps because of the possibility of confusing the issue I should pull the gif.)

The visor seeming more upright after the sign is not conclusive IMO. But it could be heading that way if one of the earlier good photos definitely shows the passenger side visor lower (say for example a houston st photo) because the later ones as the limo passes Zapruder seem (to me) definitely with the two visors the same. This would mean that something has pushed the visor up.

[Robin Unger]

Thank you Jack. Just to clear up one possible cause for misunderstanding. I wouldn't have seen it as conclusive, so I wonder if you mean my animation? If so, it's a suggestion or a manufactured before, derived from various images posted, and overlaid on the real damage. IMO it helps to better see the damage. I think it's possible to see that the right visors rod sits lower than the left one as if it's support (the bracket ) has indeed been damaged. The gif doesn't show that drop as I didn't see it before making the gif, but the image Robin posted does (IMO). (perhaps because of the possibility of confusing the issue I should pull the gif.)

The visor seeming more upright after the sign is not conclusive IMO. But it could be heading that way if one of the earlier good photos definitely shows the passenger side visor lower (say for example a houston st photo) because the later ones as the limo passes Zapruder seem (to me) definitely with the two visors the same. This would mean that something has pushed the visor up.

Edited January 14, 2007 by Robin Unger

[John Dolva]

http://www.geocities.com/quaneeri2/DPowers.jpg

seems to have the same difference as that one, Robin. The z frames are so relatively poor that with various blurs it seems to me very difficult to say when they came to be both the same angle except it seems to me that as the limo passes Z they are definitely pushed up by the same amount (which presumably is up against the trim). In Altgens they seem still to be different.

Edited January 14, 2007 by John Dolva