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By now, Lee's records reflected at least some positive effects from his referrals in that his truancy ceased, and he was once again, saluting the flag. Marguerite and Lee's move to NO would follow on the heels of Betty and Herman Liveright who had lived about 5 blocks from Lee in NYC where Herman worked for ABC TV. The move to NO was to take up a position with WDSU. Betty meanwhile, anchored her own TV show called "Tulane Closeup". Now working with Eastland Subcommittee, Robert Morris began investigations in NO, and in March, 1956, Herman Liveright was subpoenaed to give evidence. Liveright refused to answer questions including whether he was or had ever been a member of the Communist Party, whether he held party meetings at his home and whether the party had told him to move to New Orleans. The Liverights had been lifelong activists with a particular interest in political prisoners. Was Betty the "old lady" who had given young Lee some literature on the Rosenbergs? She was 40 at around the time Lee said this occurred and living, as stated, only 5 blocks from him. 40 is certainly "old" to a 13 year old. Both Liverights lost their jobs as a result of the Eastland Subcommittee inquiries.

In the spring of 1955, Marguerite and Lee move into an apartment in Exchange Pl above a pool hall. Opposite that pool hall was the office of Treasury Dept undercover operative, Mike Malone. From that office, Malone ran a bunch of Baker St Irregulars he referred to as his "Jr G-Men". More on Malone in later installments.

During the summer, Oswald joins another of those organizations recommended in the Army POW study report - CAP. Here, he meets David Ferrie. Oswald's later recollections that his interest in Communism began at age 15 would mean it possibly began around the time of his CAP involvement. For her part, Marguerite told the Warren Commission that his interest in reading both Communist literature and the Marine Manual was inspired by a recruitment officer who was trying to encourage Lee to enlist in the Marines around the time of his 16th birthday. It is unlikely in the extreme that this "recruitment officer" was anything but someone playing that role, as few genuine recruitment officers would encourage a fraudulent enlistment.

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By now, Lee's records reflected at least some positive effects from his referrals in that his truancy ceased, and he was once again, saluting the flag. Marguerite and Lee's move to NO would follow on the heels of Betty and Herman Liveright who had lived about 5 blocks from Lee in NYC where Herman worked for ABC TV. The move to NO was to take up a position with WDSU. Betty meanwhile, anchored her own TV show called "Tulane Closeup". Now working with Eastland Subcommittee, Robert Morris began investigations in NO, and in March, 1956, Herman Liveright was subpoenaed to give evidence. Liveright refused to answer questions including whether he was or had ever been a member of the Communist Party, whether he held party meetings at his home and whether the party had told him to move to New Orleans. The Liverights had been lifelong activists with a particular interest in political prisoners. Was Betty the "old lady" who had given young Lee some literature on the Rosenbergs? She was 40 at around the time Lee said this occurred and living, as stated, only 5 blocks from him. 40 is certainly "old" to a 13 year old. Both Liverights lost their jobs as a result of the Eastland Subcommittee inquiries.

In the spring of 1955, Marguerite and Lee move into an apartment in Exchange Pl above a pool hall. Opposite that pool hall was the office of Treasury Dept undercover operative, Mike Malone. From that office, Malone ran a bunch of Baker St Irregulars he referred to as his "Jr G-Men". More on Malone in later installments.

During the summer, Oswald joins another of those organizations recommended in the Army POW study report - CAP. Here, he meets David Ferrie. Oswald's later recollections that his interest in Communism began at age 15 would mean it possibly began around the time of his CAP involvement. For her part, Marguerite told the Warren Commission that his interest in reading both Communist literature and the Marine Manual was inspired by a recruitment officer who was trying to encourage Lee to enlist in the Marines around the time of his 16th birthday. It is unlikely in the extreme that this "recruitment officer" was anything but someone playing that role, as few genuine recruitment officers would encourage a fraudulent enlistment.

Addendum

In Nov 1955, Lee began work at the import/export company Gerald F. Tujague Inc as a messenger boy. A string of similar jobs resulted in his civilian employment code being listed as "courier/office boy" in the Marines - a desirable "qualification" for a low level ex-Marine on undercover assignment as a courier. Tajague would, in 1961, become VP of Guy Banister's newly created Friends of Democratic Cuba.

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By now, .......

Addendum

In Nov 1955, Lee began work at the import/export company Gerald F. Tujague Inc as a messenger boy. A string of similar jobs resulted in his civilian employment code being listed as "courier/office boy" in the Marines - a desirable "qualification" for a low level ex-Marine on undercover assignment as a courier. Tajague would, in 1961, become VP of Guy Banister's newly created Friends of Democratic Cuba.

Greg,

When LHO got his passport to go to Europe/USSR, his occupation is listed as "Import/Export Agent."

His work for Tujaque is the only time I know of when he actually worked in that field. His job was to pick up and deliver items/packages around the docks.

He may however, thought himself as working for Universal Export, 007's cover.

BK

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In Nov 1955, Lee began work at the import/export company Gerald F. Tujague Inc as a messenger boy.....

Greg, forgive me for introducing John Armstrong into this thread, I really do read other books. But what Armstrong has to say about Oswald's employment at Tujague's is very interesting. Keep in mind that Robert Oswald told the Warren Commission that when he got out of the service he went to visit Lee and Marguerite:

Mr. Jenner: Did you visit your mother and your brother in New Orleans when you returned from the service in July of 1955?

Mr. Oswald: Yes, sir; I did. I did not--yes, sir, it was in July 1955 when I made my first trip from Fort Worth, Tex., to New Orleans, La. I had purchased a car the second day I was home from the service, a 1951 Chevrolet, and I drove it on the third day or the second night to New Orleans, La.

Mr. Jenner: Were your quarters in a hotel, or did you join your brother and mother?

Mr. Oswald: I joined my mother and brother.

Mr. Jenner: How long did you stay in New Orleans on that trip?

Mr. Oswald: Approximately 1 week.

Mr. Jenner: And you lived with your mother and brother?

Mr. Oswald: That's correct.

Mr. Jenner: That was in July of 1955?

Mr. Oswald: Yes, sir; that's correct.

Mr. Jenner: He was not in school at that time.

Mr. Oswald: No, sir; he was not.

Mr. Jenner: Now, how did you find your brother, as to the state of health and state of mind?

Mr. Oswald: He seemed to be the same to me. He had joined at that time no, sir--he had not at that time been in the Civil Air Patrol.
At that time Lee was working I believe for an export firm there in New Orleans. I do not know the name of it. I do not believe I ever heard the name of it. I might have.
(Bold added) Mother was also working at that time.

Armstrong writes:

The Warren Commission ignored Robert Oswald's testimony and reported that Lee Harvey Oswald was not employed anywhere in the summer of 1955. They said that he entered the 10th grade at Warren Easton High School in September, dropped out shortly before his 16th birthday (October 18) and only then did he begin working at Tujagues's on November 10, 1955.

The Commission based their conclusions upon handwritten payroll records and time cards allegedly provided by Mr. Gerald F. Tujague, which could have been created by anyone, and offer no proof of Oswald's beginning or ending dates of employment. The Commission relied on these documents and made no attempt to locate verifiable records such as payroll checks, withholding tax statements, social security records, etc. Without verifiable records, as was the case with Oswald's employment at Dolly Shoe, we are left with only the memories of Tujague employees who knew Lee Oswald in order to learn the real dates of his employment.

Armstrong traveled to New Orleans and met Frank DiBenedetto, long time employee and close friend of the company's founder, Gerald Tujague. Although not interviewed by the Warren Commission, DiBenedetto told the HSCA, "Oswald worked at Tujague's for a year to a year and a half." He remembered Oswald as well-built, approximately 5-foot-10, and with either dark brown or nearly black hair. When Armstrong met DiBenedetto, he had taken over the company which was still located at 442 Canal Street, in the same building and floor where Oswald had worked under DiBenedetto's supervision 40 years earlier.

DiBenedetto gave Armstrong the names of two living former Tujague employees, Gloria Callahan and Jimmy Hudnell who provided confirmation of DiBenedetto's recollections. Armstrong's complete study of Oswald's employment at Tujague's is extensive and beyond the scope of this post. However, this is part of Armstrong's conclusion:

New Orleans school records show that Lee Harvey Oswald attended Warren Easton as a sophomore from September 8 thru October 10, 1955. But Robert Oswald, Lillian Murret, Frank DiBenetto, and Gloria Callaghan's collective memories place Lee Oswald at Tujague's from July 1955 until the spring or summer of 1956. Oswald's original employment records from Tujague's disappeared. Therefore, the statements of these people represent the best available evidence to establish the true beginning and ending dates of Lee Oswald's employment at Tujague's.

To make it appear as though one Lee Harvey Oswald attended Warren Easton and worked at Tujague's in the fall of 1955 certain records had to be altered and/or destroyed. The school records and memories of students and teachers who remembered (Harvey) Oswald at Warren Easton High School were numerous and irrefutable. But the dates of Lee Oswald's employment at Tujagues's were known only to a few people, and could be easily manipulated if the original records disappeared and were replaced with fabricated documents. (Armstrong provides extensive evidence of how he believes this was done)

Note: Whoever was responsible for destroying and fabricating Oswald's payroll records knew about the two Oswalds.
(Bold added)

Edited by Michael Hogan
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"Greg, forgive me for introducing John Armstrong into this thread"

Michael, I'm not in the business of forgiving. For that you'll need to go to your local God Inc branch manager aka your local parish priest.

I have asked before that people not try and divert my threads with the "Two Oswalds Theory". If you didn't see that request, hopefully you'll see it this time.

I also said I'd be happy to discuss if threads were started on aspects of that theory. Since none of its supporters seem interested in actually starting threads on it, but merely hijacking other threads with it, I'll repost your comments and reply in a separate thread.

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Michael, I'm not in the business of forgiving. For that you'll need to go to your local God Inc branch manager aka your local parish priest.

Uh, no thanks. I'll pass.

I have asked before that people not try and divert my threads with the "Two Oswalds Theory". If you didn't see that request, hopefully you'll see it this time.

Yeah Greg. I see it this time. Never saw it before. Won't happen again.

I also said I'd be happy to discuss if threads were started on aspects of that theory. Since none of its supporters seem interested in actually starting threads on it, but merely hijacking other threads with it, I'll repost your comments and reply in a separate thread.

Please don't bother on my account. Your definition of "highjacking" is markedly different than mine. I have no interest in future participation in any of "your" threads.

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By now, .......

Addendum

In Nov 1955, Lee began work at the import/export company Gerald F. Tujague Inc as a messenger boy. A string of similar jobs resulted in his civilian employment code being listed as "courier/office boy" in the Marines - a desirable "qualification" for a low level ex-Marine on undercover assignment as a courier. Tajague would, in 1961, become VP of Guy Banister's newly created Friends of Democratic Cuba.

Greg,

When LHO got his passport to go to Europe/USSR, his occupation is listed as "Import/Export Agent."

His work for Tujaque is the only time I know of when he actually worked in that field. His job was to pick up and deliver items/packages around the docks.

He may however, thought himself as working for Universal Export, 007's cover.

BK

Bill, it was cover for more than a few real life agents, as well.

According to Marguerite's testimony, Lee told her before leaving that he was going into the import/export business, and Lilian Murret testified that Marguerite phoned her thinking he was possibly going back into the employ of Tujague, and may call in on Lillian. Like a lot of things LHO said, there may have actually been a grain of truth in it. He was about to "export" data and bring some back...

The BoP op may not have been the only thing JFK inherited from Ike. Having shed himself of the influence of John Dulles and CD Jackson, great strides in exchange programs (cultural and scientific) were being made. However, there may have been some data that needed to be shared, but couldn't be seen to be shared. Thus it had to be a deal that few on either side were privy to. The Soviets were leading the space race, giving them the upper hand in negotiations. Another reason some exchanges had to be back-door deals - US prestige. Not being seen to be without the upper hand. JFK was in a similar position during the Missile Crisis and played the same back door deal game.

Whilst someone like George Michael Evica considers the possibility that Oswald was sent by someone like Jackson to derail the peace talks (by providing the info needed to bring a U2 down); I'm looking at him rather being a courier for the WH. Oswald was chosen because ( a ) he was already known via being a "test subject" of the POW study which culminated in writing a letter to the SP - one certain to be intercepted - just prior to enlistment; ( b ) as a result of being that test subject, having a profile matched what spook agencies of both countries believed was the profile for a potential defector; ( c ) as a result of ( b ) as well as his youth, he'd be unlikely to unduly worry the KGB or arouse suspicion and ( d ) his civilian employment as a courier.

One opportunity for such a deal to be stitched up between key officials of each country was the July 24, 1959 Nixon - Khrushchev "Kitchen Debate". Lee knew he was possibly going on some mission or other at the start of 1959. That's why he was shipped back from Japan and immediately sets about having a Russian test and applying to the Albert Schweitzer College. He couldn't however, put in for a dependency discharge until after the deal was done for him to go - and so the plans to get out were put on hold until after July 24. Once his mother and Red Cross etc were all set, he applied for it on Aug 17.

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By now, Lee's records reflected at least some positive effects from his referrals in that his truancy ceased, and he was once again, saluting the flag. Marguerite and Lee's move to NO would follow on the heels of Betty and Herman Liveright who had lived about 5 blocks from Lee in NYC where Herman worked for ABC TV. The move to NO was to take up a position with WDSU. Betty meanwhile, anchored her own TV show called "Tulane Closeup". Now working with Eastland Subcommittee, Robert Morris began investigations in NO, and in March, 1956, Herman Liveright was subpoenaed to give evidence. Liveright refused to answer questions including whether he was or had ever been a member of the Communist Party, whether he held party meetings at his home and whether the party had told him to move to New Orleans. The Liverights had been lifelong activists with a particular interest in political prisoners. Was Betty the "old lady" who had given young Lee some literature on the Rosenbergs? She was 40 at around the time Lee said this occurred and living, as stated, only 5 blocks from him. 40 is certainly "old" to a 13 year old. Both Liverights lost their jobs as a result of the Eastland Subcommittee inquiries.

In the spring of 1955, Marguerite and Lee move into an apartment in Exchange Pl above a pool hall. Opposite that pool hall was the office of Treasury Dept undercover operative, Mike Malone. From that office, Malone ran a bunch of Baker St Irregulars he referred to as his "Jr G-Men". More on Malone in later installments.

During the summer, Oswald joins another of those organizations recommended in the Army POW study report - CAP. Here, he meets David Ferrie. Oswald's later recollections that his interest in Communism began at age 15 would mean it possibly began around the time of his CAP involvement. For her part, Marguerite told the Warren Commission that his interest in reading both Communist literature and the Marine Manual was inspired by a recruitment officer who was trying to encourage Lee to enlist in the Marines around the time of his 16th birthday. It is unlikely in the extreme that this "recruitment officer" was anything but someone playing that role, as few genuine recruitment officers would encourage a fraudulent enlistment.

Nice tale with the exception that:

1. John Pic, the older half-brother had joined the Military Service in order to get away from his domineering mother Marguerite Claverie Oswald.

Mr. JENNER - His, enlistment, when you learned about it, and how. He enlisted in October 1956. He was then 17 years old.

Mr. PIC - My mother told me some way or another, I don't remember, sir. This is how I learned about it, either by phone call or by letter or some way. Of course, I knew he would do it as soon as he reached the age.

Mr. PIC - We played with Lee. Lee had his dog. On the weekends, Sunday, we would all go to the movies, the whole family. I usually went to work at sunup and returned at dark myself.

In the fall of 1948 it was the fad among high school students and young teenagers to join either the National Guard or Naval Reserve or some reserve outfit like this, so I was only 16 at the time, and I wanted to do this, and my mother thought it would be a real good way to supplement the income. So--

Mr. JENNER - Did you get paid for this service?

Mr. PIC - Yes. sir we would meet once a month and draw a day's salary, something like this. It wasn't much money, a couple or $3 a meeting; something like that. So we went to the notary, I think, this was McLean's office and she swore to a notary that I was 17.

Mr. JENNER - But you were not in fact 17?

Mr. PIC - No. sir: I was 16. She gave my birthday as 17 January 1931. Can we go off the record?

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. PIC - OK so I joined the Marine Corps Reserve sometime in October 1948. I was attached to the 2d l55th Military Howitzer Battalion, U.S. Marine Corps Reserve Fort Worth, Tex. About that time I started thinking and decided regardless of how my mother felt what happened, I was going to go back to school So in January 1949 I went back to school and finished my high, school education.

Mr. JENNER - The early enlistments of yourself and Robert and Lee--do you think that had anything to do with your mother's persistent references, allusions to finances?

Mr. PIC - I did not enlist as fast as the other boys. I waited a year after I was of age. I am sure that prior to my enlistment, as a matter of fact, I knew she mentioned when I do get in I should make out an allotment to her and so forth.

Mr. JENNER - Do you think there was an incentive on the part of Lee and Robert to enlist as soon as possible to get away from your mother?

Mr. PIC - Yes, sir; I do.

Mr. JENNER - Did you and your brother Robert have discussions on this subject?

Mr. PIC - No, sir; we never discussed these things. It was just a feeling it was always around. We knew these things without discussing them.

Mr. PIC - Yes; I am sure it did. When I reached 17, I was eligible for the service, but I was really in no hurry, I wanted to finish my high school education, and when I decided to join the Coast Guard--at that time to join the Coast Guard you needed your parent's consent up until the age of 21. I asked her for it and she hesitated and I told her if she didn't give it to me I would join another branch where I didn't need it and then I got it. I am sure that neither Robert nor Lee needed their mother's consent to join the Marine' Corps at the age of 17. I know for the Coast Guard we did, sir, the Coast Guard was not a part of the Department of Defense at that time.

Mr. JENNER - Directing your attention to Exhibits Nos. 21 and 21-A, the second page of that letter, Exhibit No. 21, reads, "Robert left Friday morning for San Diego. He joined the Marines and signed for 4 years. I am glad he decided to enlist. He realized his mistake about getting married, and"--would you read the rest of it?

Mr. PIC - "And probably having to go just the same."

Mr. JENNER - I see. What had occurred to Robert in the meantime? This is December of 1957. Was he still in the service?

Mr. PIC - No, sir; he was not, I don't believe. I think he had gotten discharged and gotten married, was residing in Fort Worth with his wife.

Mr. JENNER - He was discharged in the spring of 1956--1957, rather; and stayed at Exchange Alley for a short while

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Mr. OSWALD. July 1952 I joined the Marine Corps.

Mr. JENNER. And in July 1952, when you joined the Marine Corps, what do you recall was your status as far as your schooling was concerned?

Mr. OSWALD. I completed my junior year in high school.

Mr. DULLES. Did you enlist for 3 years?

Mr. JENNER. And in July 1952, when you joined the Marine Corps, what do you recall was your status as far as your schooling was concerned?

Mr. OSWALD. I completed my junior year in high school.

Mr. DULLES. Did you enlist for 3 years?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And your brother was still in the Coast Guard?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; he was still in the Coast Guard at that time.

Mr. JENNER. Was there a discussion, a family discussion when you enlisted in the Marines, or prior to your enlisting in the Marines, as to your doing so, and quitting high school?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; there was not.

Mr. JENNER. That was of your own volition?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Did you talk to your mother in advance about it?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Not at all?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Had anything preceded in the way of family discussion of your brother John's entry into the Coast Guard?

Mr. OSWALD. I feel like it was, sir. He had previously----

Mr. JENNER. This is your best recollection?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

He had previously, before going into the Coast Guard, joined the Marine Corps Reserve, the base of which was, at that time, at Grand Prairie, Tex. I believe it was 105 Howitzer, something like that. And he was perhaps in that 4 or 5 months before he joined the Coast Guard. When it came up about the Coast Guard, I believe we all talked about it, or at least he talked to Lee about it in front of me.

Mr. JENNER. Staten Island, I guess.

I would like to ask some questions about that later on, but I prefer now to return to this.

You enlisted in the Marines, then, in the summer of 1952.

Mr. OSWALD. July 11, 1952

Mr. JENNER. And you were discharged from the Marines----

Mr. OSWALD. July of 1955.

Mr. JENNER. So you had a full 3 years in the Marines.

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; that is correct.

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One can sit around and make up stories all day long as to the "mysterious going's on" of LHO's enlistment into the USMC.

However, considering that each of his two older brothers had also enlisted into the USMC at an early age, it is most unlikely that the first time that LHO ever heard of the USMC was from some recruiter who promoted some ilicit enlistment.

GARBAGE!

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Nice tale with the exception that:

1. John Pic, the older half-brother had joined the Military Service in order to get away from his domineering mother Marguerite Claverie Oswald.

TP

Excuse me Tom, could you please point out where I gave any reason he joined the Military Service, and denied he had a domineering mother? Thnx, There's a good chap!

One can sit around and make up stories all day long as to the "mysterious going's on" of LHO's enlistment into the USMC.

However, considering that each of his two older brothers had also enlisted into the USMC at an early age, it is most unlikely that the first time that LHO ever heard of the USMC was from some recruiter who promoted some ilicit enlistment.

What stories have I made up about his enlistment, Tom? Are you not cognizant of the illegal attempt to join early? Are you unaware of Marguerite's testimony regarding a recruitment officer ( a ) encouraging the illegal attempt and ( b ) encouraging the reading of both the Marine Manual and Communist literature? Have you never heard of the letter Oswald sent to the SP shortly before his successful enlistment?

Those are the only things I mentioned in regard to enlistment.

I didn't even mention he should not have been accepted because of his hearing loss - unless there was some niche role only someone like him could fill.

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Michael, I'm not in the business of forgiving. For that you'll need to go to your local God Inc branch manager aka your local parish priest.

Uh, no thanks. I'll pass.

I have asked before that people not try and divert my threads with the "Two Oswalds Theory". If you didn't see that request, hopefully you'll see it this time.

Yeah Greg. I see it this time. Never saw it before. Won't happen again.

I also said I'd be happy to discuss if threads were started on aspects of that theory. Since none of its supporters seem interested in actually starting threads on it, but merely hijacking other threads with it, I'll repost your comments and reply in a separate thread.

Please don't bother on my account. Your definition of "highjacking" is markedly different than mine. I have no interest in future participation in any of "your" threads.

Mike, in all sincerity, I'd call that my loss if you had ever shared with me the wisdom of your own thoughts instead of those of Chairman John.

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The mention of the research of John Armstrong IS NOT HIJACKING of the two

"Propinquity" threads. That erudite word merely means KINSHIP.

Talking of Lee Harvey Oswald as being A SINGLE PERSON is contrary to the

massive evidence of Armstrong, which clearly shows TWO PERSONS using

that name. Were they KIN to each other? I doubt it.

Anyone who says mention of Armstrong is "hijacking the thread" is unfamiliar

with HARVEY & LEE.

Read it.

Jack

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Nice tale with the exception that:

1. John Pic, the older half-brother had joined the Military Service in order to get away from his domineering mother Marguerite Claverie Oswald.

TP

Excuse me Tom, could you please point out where I gave any reason he joined the Military Service, and denied he had a domineering mother? Thnx, There's a good chap!

One can sit around and make up stories all day long as to the "mysterious going's on" of LHO's enlistment into the USMC.

However, considering that each of his two older brothers had also enlisted into the USMC at an early age, it is most unlikely that the first time that LHO ever heard of the USMC was from some recruiter who promoted some ilicit enlistment.

What stories have I made up about his enlistment, Tom? Are you not cognizant of the illegal attempt to join early? Are you unaware of Marguerite's testimony regarding a recruitment officer ( a ) encouraging the illegal attempt and ( b ) encouraging the reading of both the Marine Manual and Communist literature? Have you never heard of the letter Oswald sent to the SP shortly before his successful enlistment?

Those are the only things I mentioned in regard to enlistment.

I didn't even mention he should not have been accepted because of his hearing loss - unless there was some niche role only someone like him could fill.

Addendum

In Nov 1955, Lee began work at the import/export company Gerald F. Tujague Inc as a messenger boy. A string of similar jobs resulted in his civilian employment code being listed as "courier/office boy" in the Marines - a desirable "qualification" for a low level ex-Marine on undercover assignment as a courier. Tajague would, in 1961, become VP of Guy Banister's newly created Friends of Democratic Cuba.

I would guess that a grocery delivery boy would rate as a master spy then, since he would actually be delivering a product.

LHO was a 16 year old messengar boy who was most probably delivering messages related to the bookmaking/numbers activities of those individuals who controlled much of the employment of his family.

Personally, it is difficult to fathom exactly why NASA did not attempt to recruit this person, after all, he had all of this CAP (Civil Air Patrol) experience which no doubt fully qualifed him as a probable astronaut candidate.

Are you not cognizant of the illegal attempt to join early

Mr. PIC - We played with Lee. Lee had his dog. On the weekends, Sunday, we would all go to the movies, the whole family. I usually went to work at sunup and returned at dark myself.

In the fall of 1948 it was the fad among high school students and young teenagers to join either the National Guard or Naval Reserve or some reserve outfit like this, so I was only 16 at the time, and I wanted to do this, and my mother thought it would be a real good way to supplement the income. So--

Mr. JENNER - Did you get paid for this service?

Mr. PIC - Yes. sir we would meet once a month and draw a day's salary, something like this. It wasn't much money, a couple or $3 a meeting; something like that. So we went to the notary, I think, this was McLean's office and she swore to a notary that I was 17.

Mr. JENNER - But you were not in fact 17?

Mr. PIC - No. sir: I was 16. She gave my birthday as 17 January 1931. Can we go off the record?

(Discussion off the record.)

Are you cognizant of the fact that this is exactly what LHO's older half-brother had successfuly done with the assistance of Marguerite Oswald telling the same lie and it not having been found out?

1. John Edward Pic (half brother to LHO) joined the USMC Reserve at age 16 with the assistance of Marguerite Oswald having falsely signed that he was of legal age to do so.

Immediately after finishing high school, John Pic volunteered for active duty in the US Coast Guard and was transferred from his "Active Reserve unit" status in the USMC, to fully active duty in the Coast Guard.

2. Robert Edward Lee Oswald (brother to LHO) joined the USMC active duty immediately upon reaching age 17, and prior to completion of high school.

3. LHO attempted to join the USMC at age 16, by utilization of the same fraudulent means in which his half-brother John Pic had joined the service. IE: His mother forging paperwork. It failed!

Immediately upon reaching legal age to join with parental consent, LHO joined the USMC active duty reserve.

P.S. You are welcome. Now, how about making an attempt to present the factual representations of this family.

One could begin by attempting to describe the "string of similar jobs".

A string of similar jobs resulted in his civilian employment code being listed as "courier/office boy" in the Marines

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Yes, Tom, I did say "his civilian employment code being listed as "courier/office boy" in the Marines - a desirable "qualification" for a low level ex-Marine on undercover assignment as a courier." I did not say that was the reason he joined.

I would guess that a grocery delivery boy would rate as a master spy then, since he would actually be delivering a product.

LHO was a 16 year old messengar boy who was most probably delivering messages related to the bookmaking/numbers activities of those individuals who controlled much of the employment of his family.

Personally, it is difficult to fathom exactly why NASA did not attempt to recruit this person, after all, he had all of this CAP (Civil Air Patrol) experience which no doubt fully qualifed him as a probable astronaut candidate.

THP

A courier is a courier. It was how the USMC classified his civilian occupation through the Dictionary of Occupational Titles (DOT) codes. Low level spy work also entails couriering. The code does not specify numbers runner, grocery delivery boy or low level spy. - but they are all in the same broad category. This occupation code was not the only reason I gave for him being chosen, btw.

Your attempt to equate Lee's attempt to join early with the successful effort by John Pic is flawed.

Pic joined a reserve unit - not f/t regular as Oswald attempted.

Marguerite in the case of Pic, swore a false statement to get him in. This was not the method used in the case of Lee - the method used in his case was bound to fail.

In Pic's case, there was no "recruitment officer" encouraging the illegal enlistment - let alone any encouragement to study both Marine Manual and Marxism.

P.S. You are welcome. Now, how about making an attempt to present the factual representations of this family.

One could begin by attempting to describe the "string of similar jobs".

THP

From Marguerite's testimony:

Mrs. OSWALD. What did he do during that year? He was working for--as a messenger for Tujaque and Son.

Mr. RANKIN. He had quite a few jobs, did he not?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. I can explain that to you.

This "quite a few" jobs probably included running for Uncle Dutz -- which explains Marguerite's desire to "explain". Her explanation of course, was not an explanation at all. Just a description of 3 jobs held. All office boy or courier type jobs.

Your insinuation that I have somehow misrepresented the facts regarding the Oswald family so far seems to lack any basis. You are merely mistaking your disagreement with my perspective on the evidence for this (non-existent) "misrepresentation" of the facts.

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Your attempt to equate Lee's attempt to join early with the successful effort by John Pic is flawed.

Perhaps so! And, exactly how "flawed" is a logic that says that because one who as a young teenager does work as a messanger boy, is thus qualifed as some type of "courier" to carry and deliver secrets and engage in "spywork"!

Especially when one can not correlate the similarity of falsification of documents for John Pic to enter the Reserve Service and the attempted falsification of documents for LHO to do exactly the same.

Either way, one immediately leaves home for the initial/basic training, irrelevant as to whether in the Guard, Active Reserve, Inactive Reserve, or Active Duty assignment.

Since one can enter either the Guard or Reserve at an earlier age than required for active duty enlistment (with parental signature), LHO could have done exactly as did his older half-brother.

That being enter the Guard or Reserve at the younger age, received his active duty basic training requirements while underage for active duty assignment, and then transfer to full active duty upon reaching the age of consent.

So, any recruiter, attempting to earn his points/recruitment quota, fully knew of these means in which underage persons could still enlist and thereafter transfer to active duty, and the Recruiter still gain credit for the enlistment.

Not only that, it is a means by which the recruitee can stay in school and finish his High School education, just as did John Pic.

[size=1]Mrs. OSWALD. What did he do during that year? He was working for--as a messenger for Tujaque and Son.

Mr. RANKIN. He had quite a few jobs, did he not?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. I can explain that to you. [/size]

This "quite a few" jobs probably included running for Uncle Dutz -- which explains Marguerite's desire to "explain". Her explanation of course, was not an explanation at all. Just a description of 3 jobs held. All office boy or courier type jobs.

It would appear that the operative word here is PROBABLY!

Factually however:

And one of the young men knew of a better paying job, where they had coffee breaks and everything, so Lee took that job, which was with a dental laboratory--if you have that information, sir.

And I think that is the only two jobs-no, Lee worked after school for Dolly Shoe Co. I was working there, in charge of the hosiery department, and Lee worked on Friday afternoon and Saturday as a shoe salesman.

That was his first job-while he went to school he worked there.

And then when he left school, as I told you, at age 16--the first job was

Tujaque and Company, steamship, and then the dental laboratory. And that is the only jobs he had in New Orleans.

Mr. RANKIN. Were there not times he didn't have any job during that year?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir--because when we left New Orleans, Lee left this dental laboratory job--that is correct.

So I moved back to Fort Worth, Tex.,

LHO had part time jobs which included working (selling shoes) in the Dolly Shoe Co. store (actually working for his mother), who had gotten this position through family connections, and also working a job for the Pfisiter Dental Lab, as a "dental messenger".

So, I would suppose that in all of this "courier"/messenger business, one would require a lot of shoes.

In Pic's case, there was no "recruitment officer" encouraging the illegal enlistment - let alone any encouragement to study both Marine Manual and Marxism

Were you there? Hate to be the one to break the news to you, but military recruitment has been operating like this for longer than you think.

Ever hear about all of those 16-year olds who managed to join the active duty service?

From the manner in which John Pic enlisted, while managing to stay home and finish his High School education, and then transfer to active duty after graduation from high school, one can just about rest assured that some recruiter had "walked" him through the means and methods around which one can enter military service while actually underage for initial active duty enlistment.

Also, I did miss that testimony by whomever it is that you claim informed LHO to study both the USMC Manual and Marxism.

Marguerite in the case of Pic, swore a false statement to get him in. This was not the method used in the case of Lee - the method used in his case was bound to fail.

Not necessarily! At age 15, I personally went to work on what was considered as "high risk" construction work and which National Labor Laws required one to be 18 years of age to perform.

Did it by conversion of the "5" to an "8" on the birth certificate, and then making a copy and passing it off.

So, a 15-year old became an 18-year old.

Done all the time in the South as well as elsewhere.

a desirable "qualification" for a low level ex-Marine on undercover assignment as a courier."

The operative word(s) here are "low level".

Low level security clearance! Low level of military rank! Low level of military performance! Low level of Military Occupational Specialty (MOS)! Low level of education! Low level of military duty assignment!

Certainly looks like a good candidate for "Secret

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Your attempt to equate Lee's attempt to join early with the successful effort by John Pic is flawed.

Perhaps so! And, exactly how "flawed" is a logic that says that because one who as a young teenager does work as a messanger boy, is thus qualifed as some type of "courier" to carry and deliver secrets and engage in "spywork"!

The "spy-work" I believe he became engaged in post USMC Soviet trip was courier work. And I'll repeat what I said before; the Dictionary of Occupational Titles (DOT) codes was used by the military to classify the enlistee's civilian occupation. It didn't specify particular jobs and anyone looking at it would not know if the person had worked for a shoe store, an import-exporter, a laboratory, a newspaper office or an aircraft manufacturer. And again, this was not the sole reason he would have been chosen - nor even the reason he entered the USMC.

Especially when one can not correlate the similarity of falsification of documents for John Pic to enter the Reserve Service and the attempted falsification of documents for LHO to do exactly the same.

You correlate it if you can. You go on to say below that Pic had no need to falsify his age. Why then, did he? In Lee's attempt, it was not a false statement being used. Marguerite wanted to enlist the aid of a lawyer to produce a false birth certificate. And according to her testimony, she was "frantic" at the prospect of Lee joining at 16 and possibly being sent overseas. Why then did she try and have a fraudulent birth certificate done when all she had to do was tell Lee to take the same path as John - join the reserves? A perfect compromise, I would have thought. Yet all this effort was expended on something both unnecessary (given the Reserves option) and bound to fail. I conclude from this that the whole thing was a charade meant to place a flag in his record.

Either way, one immediately leaves home for the initial/basic training, irrelevant as to whether in the Guard, Active Reserve, Inactive Reserve, or Active Duty assignment.

Since one can enter either the Guard or Reserve at an earlier age than required for active duty enlistment (with parental signature), LHO could have done exactly as did his older half-brother.

Yes. Can you explain the need for Marguerite to make a false statement to a Notary about John's age when all she needed to do was give her consent to join at 16?

That being enter the Guard or Reserve at the younger age, received his active duty basic training requirements while underage for active duty assignment, and then transfer to full active duty upon reaching the age of consent.

So, any recruiter, attempting to earn his points/recruitment quota, fully knew of these means in which underage persons could still enlist and thereafter transfer to active duty, and the Recruiter still gain credit for the enlistment.

Not only that, it is a means by which the recruitee can stay in school and finish his High School education, just as did John Pic.

Thanks. You help make my case. Any real enlistment officer would do exactly as you say - they would have encouraged Lee to join the Reserves or Guard. Instead, he hints to Marguerite that there are things she can do to get him in to Active Duty. And Marguerite takes the hint - even though she already knows about the Reserves option.

In Pic's case, there was no "recruitment officer" encouraging the illegal enlistment - let alone any encouragement to study both Marine Manual and Marxism

Were you there? Hate to be the one to break the news to you, but military recruitment has been operating like this for longer than you think. Ever hear about all of those 16-year olds who managed to join the active duty service?

From the manner in which John Pic enlisted, while managing to stay home and finish his High School education, and then transfer to active duty after graduation from high school, one can just about rest assured that some recruiter had "walked" him through the means and methods around which one can enter military service while actually underage for initial active duty enlistment.

Exactly. So why wasn't this done in Lee's case?

Also, I did miss that testimony by whomever it is that you claim informed LHO to study both the USMC Manual and Marxism.

Not my fault that the FBI and WC showed no interest in trying to discover who this phony enlistment officer was. Do you think Marguerite made him up? If so, on what grounds do you base that?

A string of similar jobs resulted in his civilian employment code being listed as "courier/office boy" in the Marines - a desirable "qualification" for a low level ex-Marine on undercover assignment as a courier.

The operative word(s) here are "low level".

Low level security clearance! Low level of military rank! Low level of military performance! Low level of Military Occupational Specialty (MOS)! Low level of education! Low level of military duty assignment!

Certainly looks like a good candidate for "Secret"

In 1956, a congressional committee reported that a million people in government—military and civilian—were authorized to wield secrecy stamps. A Defense Department official before the committee summed up: "I have never known a man to be court-martialed for over-classifying anything."

Edited by Greg Parker
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