Charles Harrelson

[Wim Dankbaar]

Quote from http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKturnerN.htm

In another episode, Charles Harrelson, who some investigators believed was involved in the assassination of John F. Kennedy, told Turner that "on November 22, 1963, at 12.30, I was having lunch with a friend in a restaurant in Houston, Texas."

Dave Perry and Gary Mack also use this alibi for Harrelson, apparently taking the suspect's word at face value.

Shall we bet that this alibi has not been proven?

Wim

Edited June 21, 2004 by dankbaar

[John Simkin]

As you know Harrelson withdrew his confession concerning the assassination of JFK. As he told Nigel Turner, he would never have accepted a contract on JFK. Not for moral or political reasons. As he pointed out, he knew that if he had, he would have ended up, like Lee Harvey Oswald, being killed by the Mafia.

This is an important point. I believe that all the gunman involved in the assassination of JFK were dead within a few weeks of the killing. Either being murdered, or much more likely, being sent on a mission to Cuba to kill Castro. Details of the plot would have been sent to the Cuban government and they would have been arrested and executed.

[Wim Dankbaar]

I believe that all the gunman involved in the assassination of JFK were dead within a few weeks of the killing. Either being murdered, or much more likely, being sent on a mission to Cuba to kill Castro. Details of the plot would have been sent to the Cuban government and they would have been arrested and executed.

That is interesting ...

So who do you believe where the actual shooters, killed within weeks after the assassination? Or don't you have a hunch as to their identites and is this just a theory you favor?

Wim

[Larry Hancock]

Just for reference, I'd recommend a book "Dirty Dealing" by Gary Cartwright which probably contains more actual detail on what Harrelson actually did where and when than anything I've come across.

Certainly I wouldn't take his word on anything... it's possible that he might actually be more beliveable under the influence of Cocaine though?

However there is one loose end that somebody should resolve and I've had no luck myself.

In his murder trial for killing Sam Degelia the prosecution introduced an eyewitness, one Jerry O'Brien Watkins who supposedly at one time had posed as a CIA agent and tried to buy weapons for anti-Castro exiles in Miami, a scam that apparently involved Harrelson. There is good evidence that Harrelson had ties to exiles doing smuggling and other stuff in Florida after the assassination, perhaps some of the old OP 40 alumnae.

It would be very interesting to know if he had any such connections prior to the assassination. I've talked to Cartwright and he just doesn't remember anything more on this as it was a minor detail in his book - however he says that the statements and testimony would still be in the trial records down in south Texas, not sure whether it would be Edinburgh or McAllan.

If somebody could tie Harrelson to exile gun running and contacts immediately before the JFK assassination it could make things more interesting. It is pretty clear though that between 1960 when he was arrested for a petty crime in California and the mid-60's when he was driving big cars and wearing expensive clothes he did something to get a serious rep as a contract hit man. It's also clear that even after his very first arrest he had a habit of lieing about big crimes he had committed.

-- Larry

[John Simkin]

I believe that all the gunman involved in the assassination of JFK were dead within a few weeks of the killing. Either being murdered, or much more likely, being sent on a mission to Cuba to kill Castro. Details of the plot would have been sent to the Cuban government and they would have been arrested and executed.

That is interesting ...

So who do you believe where the actual shooters, killed within weeks after the assassination? Or don't you have a hunch as to their identites and is this just a theory you favor?

Wim

One aspect of this theory is that it is impossible to discover who the gunman were. However, my best guest would be men involved with Alpha 66. Probably led by Eduardo Perez (Eddie Bayo) of Operation Tilt fame.

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKbayo.htm

[Wim Dankbaar]

One aspect of this theory is that it is impossible to discover who the gunman were. However, my best guest would be men involved with Alpha 66. Probably led by Eduardo Perez (Eddie Bayo) of Operation Tilt fame.

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKbayo.htm

Well, that's your opinion and you're entitled to it of course.

However I do not agree. I 'd say the identitties of the gunmen are largely known:

James Files and Charles Nicoletti, Johnny Roselli as Nicoletti's backup.

With less certainty I have David Morales and Richard Cain in the TSBD. Charles Harrelson and Luis Posada Carrilles at unknown locations, most likely at the north and south knoll.

Both of these last two men are still alive and availble for questioning, as are Posada's compadres Felix Rodriguez and Orlando Bosch, who is also placed in Dallas by two separate witnesses.

What is being done? Nothing!

Edited June 21, 2004 by dankbaar

[James Richards]

Just to add my 2 cents worth, which some may argue is way too much, but this concept of whacking people involved in black ops (ie assassinations) in reality is a bit Hollywood.

Killing trained participants requires other trained participants and then who takes care of them?

It is far more reasonable that black operators are trained as loyal servants to their masters, to exist within a small and controlled circle, to be used again.

Finding oneself compromised of course will signal elimination but the mechanics of the JFK assassination haven't even come close to disclosure. Look how spirited discussion covers everyone from military snipers to Mafia contract to hostile Cuban exiles and no difinitive proof can be presented.

Having guys like Harrelson (Hicks and possibly Braden) photographed in Dealey Plaza was a stroke of genius as it keeps the guessing game going. Did Harrelson pull a trigger? I don't think so. Was he 'handled' to be in Dealey Plaza? Definitely.

Cheers,

James

[Wim Dankbaar]

For what it's worth, James, I think 2 cents is way too low.

Wim

[James Richards]

For what it's worth, James, I think 2 cents is way too low.

Wim

Thanks Wim, I take checks or plastic.

James

[John Simkin]

Killing trained participants requires other trained participants and then who takes care of them?

From my reading of contract killings each person involved in the conspiracy only knows about a small section of the plot. See for example, John Martino’s confession. The problem for the JFK conspirators is that the gunman knows an important part of the plot (who the killers are and who commissioned it). Therefore they are very dangerous people and need to be eliminated. My main doubt about Mac Wallace being one of the gunmen is that he did not die in a car crash until 1971.

Those given the contract to kill the gunmen in Dallas would know nothing about the JFK assassination. Nor would they know why they were killing the men concerned. I don’t think this would pose much of a threat to the original conspirators.

[James Richards]

Hi John,

In theory that makes perfect sense. I have no doubts that the JFK assassination was orchestrated with the use of cutouts to recruit small operating cells. People who circulate in the professional killing business are fully aware of the dangers but if it is common knowledge in the trade that participation in a killing signs your death warrent, I just don't see anyone getting involved. Maybe that was a rumor circulated by working assassins to keep newcomers out.

These people have to be handled from the time they are recruited for the job, to the time they are tucked safely away. To even be considered for something like the Kennedy hit, you would have to had possessed a solid track record, reliability in a crisis and the ability to keep your mouth shut. These guys were tried and tested operators known to the cutouts and known to the plotters.

And by the way, I do agree that one of the operating cells (the Dal-Tex team) came from Eddie Bayo's guys on Operation Tilt.

James

[John Simkin]

In theory that makes perfect sense. I have no doubts that the JFK assassination was orchestrated with the use of cutouts to recruit small operating cells. People who circulate in the professional killing business are fully aware of the dangers but if it is common knowledge in the trade that participation in a killing signs your death warrent, I just don't see anyone getting involved. Maybe that was a rumor circulated by working assassins to keep newcomers out. 

In most contract killings the assassins are not killed afterwards. It is not necessary as no one cares too much about the people killed. However, the assassination of JFK is in a different category. The public (and media) would demand to know who did it? Therefore, it was vitally important to kill off all those who knew about the key aspects of the plot and to set up Oswald as a patsy. I suspect that this was only the controller and the actually gunman. The controller therefore arranged the killing of the gunman leaving only himself as the one knowing who organized and carried out the plot. As Harrelson pointed out, a professional hitman would be aware of the dangers in the killing of someone like JFK. Therefore I expect it was done by non-professional gunmen. Probably, members of Alpha 66. They could also be got rid of by setting them up on a mission to kill Castro soon afterwards.

[Drew Williams]

new poster here....

i put files on the grassy knoll..

nicoletti and roselli in the dal tex....

then i dont know, charles rogers, harrelson, wallace, cain could all be there.

if anyone has strong evidence about tsbd shooters, please let me know.

thanks!

drew

[James Richards]

Therefore I expect it was done by non-professional gunmen. Probably, members of Alpha 66. They could also be got rid of by setting them up on a mission to kill Castro soon afterwards.

John,

An solid argument can be made to support that. I believe Herminio Diaz Garcia was a shooter in the TSBD and Tony Cuesta was his spotter. I also believe Felipe Vidal Santiago was the Cuban down on Elm Street. These men indeed participated in suspect missions into Cuba where they landed in hostile territory. Diaz Garcia being killed and Cuesta being badly wounded in 1966. Vidal was of course captured, probably tortured and then executed in 1964.

As for being non professionals, Diaz Garcia was a serious guy who had about 20 notches on his gun.

Don't get me wrong, I do acknowledge what you say about the participants of the JFK hit and that being a different kettle of fish than the standard contract hit. However, I don't think the original plan was to kill any of the participants which of course may have changed over time and for any number of reasons.

I also think there are at least 4 living participants - men who were directly involved with the Dealey Plaza operation. Why are they still alive? Two work for the CIA (actual employees), another now works for the DEA (still operational) and is based in Chile, and the other successfully went underground and is a consultant for mercenary companies.

Just my opinion of course.

James

[Wim Dankbaar]

Just for reference, I'd recommend a book "Dirty Dealing" by Gary Cartwright which probably contains more actual detail on what  Harrelson actually did where and when than anything I've come across.

Certainly I wouldn't take his word on anything... it's possible that he might actually be more beliveable under the influence of Cocaine though?

However there is one loose end that somebody should resolve and I've had no luck myself. 

In his murder trial for killing Sam Degelia the prosecution introduced an eyewitness,  one Jerry O'Brien Watkins who supposedly at one time had posed as a CIA agent and tried to buy weapons for anti-Castro exiles in Miami, a scam that apparently involved Harrelson.  There is good evidence that Harrelson had ties to exiles doing smuggling and other stuff in Florida after the assassination, perhaps some of the old OP 40 alumnae.

It would be very interesting to know if he had any such connections prior to the assassination.  I've talked to Cartwright and he just doesn't remember anything more on this as it was a minor detail in his book - however he says that the statements and testimony would still be in the trial records down in south Texas,  not sure whether it would be Edinburgh or McAllan.

If somebody could tie Harrelson to exile gun running and contacts immediately before the JFK assassination it could make things more interesting.  It is pretty clear though that between 1960 when he was arrested for a petty crime in California and the mid-60's when he was driving big cars and wearing expensive clothes he did something to get a serious rep as a contract hit man.  It's also clear that even after his very first arrest he had a habit of lieing about big crimes he had committed. 

-- Larry

According to Chauncey Holt, Harrelson was connected to John Masen, the gunsmith of Dallas, where Holt had to send ammunition.

http://www.jfkmurdersolved.com/holt1.htm

I believe there is evidence Masen that was involved with Ruby in gun running, but I don't have it readily available now.

Masen is still holding shop by the way. Authorities could still question him. Nobody does of course (what else is new?). Except perpaps me, but predictably, he just said: "Friend, don't ever call me again!"

This is from Dave Perry's website (of all people )

http://home.flash.net/~dperry2/elrod.html

The LaFontaines claim proof of a link between Ruby, Miller and Oswald by stating "Oswald, according to Elrod's account, was acquainted with Dallas nightclub owner Jack Ruby and a man (Lawrence Miller) arrested in Dallas while transporting stolen weapons on Nov. 18, 1963. Those guns, according to the sworn testimony of a federal agent, were intended for a Dallas gun dealer named John Thomas Masen." Masen is important because he owned "The only store in the Dallas area that sold the type of ammunition used in the shooting of President Kennedy."

We also find Ruby and Miller were obtaining their stolen weapons from Fort Hood near Killeen, Texas. An agent for Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms (ATF) named Frank Ellsworth visited Fort Hood in October 1963 and asked Army and FBI investigators about the thefts. In 1978 Ellsworth related to the House Select Committee on Assassinations (HSCA) the investigators ". . . told me somebody was stealing them blind."

Ellsworth discovered a Captain George Nonte Jr. was responsible for ordnance at the base. "Nonte, who died in 1978, had a top secret clearance and was one of the world's leading experts on firearms, eventually authoring many books on guns." So it seems Ruby was involved with Masen in some sort of gun running operation. They worked through Nonte using criminals like Miller to provide weapons for their nefarious activities.

You might try this Google search:

http://www.google.nl/search?hl=nl&ie=UTF-8...ing+%2Bruby&lr=

Edited June 23, 2004 by dankbaar