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Alistair Briggs

The Discharge Of Lee Harvey Oswald And Other Related Issues

180 posts in this topic

Posted (edited)

The Discharge Of Lee Harvey Oswald and Other Related Issues

In a previous thread there was a slight detour from the topic that lead to a discussion about Lee Harvey Oswald's 'honourable discharge' being changed to a 'undesirable discharge' and other related issues connected to it. So as not to stray too far away from the topic of the other thread, I thought starting this thread would be a decent idea.

The first 8 'replies' below this I have copied from the other thread...

Table of copied posts;

Comment 1 by Brad Milch originally found here.
Comment 2 by Alistair Briggs originally found here.
Comment 3 by Brad Milch originally found here
Comment 4 by Alistair Briggs originally found here.
Comment 5 by Paul Trejo originally found here.
Comment 6 by Joe Bauer originally found here.
Comment 7 by Brad Milch originally found here.
Comment 8 by Paul Trejo originally found here.

(Those 8 comments are placed here for context - from this comment on is where the 'new' comments start)

Edited by Alistair Briggs

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Posted (edited)

19 hours ago, Brad Milch said:

Paul, I always enjoy what you write & your take on the assassination, so please don't take this the wrong way:

Researchers continuously forget LHO's dishonorable discharge (that he wrote Secretary of the Navy John Connally about, in an attempt to have it reversed). Without that dishonorable discharge hanging over his head, LHO could have applied for & possibly gotten a CIA job without leaning on the likes of Guy Banister to 'pull strings' for LHO. Ditto for most Federal jobs. That DD ruined LHO's veteran status. I believe it also killed his right to attend college under the G.I. Bill also.

Of note to those who believe LHO did intel work for the Navy, specifically ONI: Such work would have qualified LHO for positions within the CIA & FBI, had he not had a Dishonorable Discharge hanging over his head like a Felony conviction. IOW, LHO could have achieved his intel goals on his own without the assistance of shadowy others had he not had a Dishonorable Discharge.

Had LHO been doing clandestine work for the Navy (or any other Federal agency), LHO could have used such experience to join Jesse Curry's or Bill Decker's elite group of undercover officers (had he wanted to). Instead of being accused of murdering a Dallas police officer, LHO could have been one himself.

6 months of Army service without a dishonorable discharge was all that was needed to qualify for a Civil Service (Federal) job as a Veteran during the Viet Nam thing. LHO had radar (Air Traffic Controller?) experience as well as foreign language proficiency (Russian) just a few years before I served our country. LHO could have scored a lot of good Federal & civilian jobs with just his military & veteran status (minus the Dishonorable Discharge). Without the Dishonorable Discharge, LHO could have attended colleges & earned his own degree (while getting paid by the Government). He could have joined his wife Marina's status as college educated.

I know this for a fact: Viet Nam & the college that followed my HONORABLE Discharge opened the door to Federal employment that allowed me to retire at age 52. None of that would have been possible with a DISHONORABLE Discharge dragging behind me like a ball & chain.

I'm more prone to believe that, if LHO was a shooter (solo or with help), he was aiming at John Connally for ruining his life. John Connally's signature on reversing LHO's Dishonorable Discharge could have turned LHO's life completely around.

In short, the Navy & John Connally stuck it to LHO & LHO stuck it right back on Nov 22, 1963.

David Von Pein knows this area much better than me....jump in here & go for it, David!

Sincerely & Respectfully,

Brad Milch

Edited by Alistair Briggs

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Posted (edited)

Quote

Researchers continuously forget LHO's dishonorable discharge (that he wrote Secretary of the Navy John Connally about, in an attempt to have it reversed).

15 hours ago, Alistair Briggs said:

Blame the Mother. ;)

Apparently when Oswald was first 'discharged' from the marines it was on a 'hardship discharge' (which apparently is honourable). Because Oswald, when trying to enter Russia, said he was willing to divulge Navy secrets his discharge was changed to a 'undesirable discharge'. The Navy wrote to Oswald to tell him, using his last known address. His Mother recieved it, and then subsequently wrote Oswald to tell him it had been changed to 'dishonourable discharge'...

Edited by Alistair Briggs

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Posted (edited)

12 hours ago, Brad Milch said:

Thank you for the clarification, Alistair!

It's been awhile since I booted up, wore the uniform & was a 'lean, mean fighting machine' (lol). If I am not mistaken, undesirable was about as bad, if not equal to dishonorable coming out of the US military.

I can certainly appreciate researchers who believe LHO fell into the wrong company (such as right wing extremists)  when he was out of the military that may have taken advantage of him. If I recall correctly, Vincent Bugliosi argued against LHO being an intel operative for the Navy because of the undesirable discharge he received. Some have argued that the discharge was a deception that allowed LHO to continue intel work as a civilian.

I really don't know one way or the other. How the learned researchers spin it matters to me.

I do know that when I was a Federal employee, getting fired from a Civil Service job was about the worst thing that could happen to someone who had invested a lot of years in serving the country. Kinda like a one way ticket to skid row (Desolation Row, as Bob Dylan would have it). Some fought back with lawyers, but the outcome wasn't always rosy.

Paul Trejo's analysis appeals to me in several ways. Placing myself in LHO's shoes, I can understand him wanting a piece of John Connally for turning his back on him. Connally's signature on a reversal of LHO's discharge from undesirable to honorable would have turned LHO's world around 360 degrees. I can also envision LHO working with others that may have told him they'd be the shooter if LHO could smuggle a weapon into the TSBD & help them escape the building.

Respectfully & Sincerely,

Brad Milch

Edited by Alistair Briggs

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Posted (edited)

Quote

Thank you for the clarification, Alistair!

It's been awhile since I booted up, wore the uniform & was a 'lean, mean fighting machine' (lol). If I am not mistaken, undesirable was about as bad, if not equal to dishonorable coming out of the US military.

10 hours ago, Alistair Briggs said:

I don't have any real 'first hand' knowledge on the subject, I can only dig out what I can find online really. What I did come across was that an 'undesirable discharge' would come under the banner of 'Other Than Honourable' - in terms of whether that was 'about as bad' as a 'dishonourable discharge', my research leads me to believe that it wasn't quite as bad, but still bad.

http://military-law.lawyers.com/veterans-benefits/discharges-and-their-effect-on-veteran-benefits.html

Just on this whole subject,

On January 30th 1962 (although he erred and put the year as 61) Lee wrote his letter to John Connally. By that time Connally had resigned as Navy Secretary, he did 'acknowledge' the letter though and forwarded it to his successor Fred Korth - the Navy responded to Oswald advising him that no change of correction to his status was warranted.
(I will try and find a copy of the letter online, if not I can type it out from a book I have. ;) )

On March 22nd 1962 Lee wrote another letter. Here is a quote from the book The President And The Provocateur by Alex Cox pg98 about it;

Quote

... Lee Oswald fired off a letter of his own. It was addressed to R. McC. Tompkins, Brigadier General USMC, Assistant Director of Personnel. Once again, Lee protested that he had recieved an "undiresable" [sic] discharge. In surprisingly legalistic terms, he wrote,

"I have not violated Section 1544, Title 18, US code, therefore you have no legel [sic] or even moral right to reverse my honourable discharge from the USMC of Sept.11, 1960... You may consider this letter a request by me for a full review of my case in the light of these facts, since by the time you recive [sic] this letter I shall have returned to the USA with my family, and shall be prepared to appear in person at a reasonable time and place in my area, before a reviewing board of officers."

.The last part of that makes me chuckle a bit. Lee is clearly so annoyed at having his 'honourable discharge' changed and he is adamant that it shouldn't have been changed - presumably he would want to do eveything in his power to do so, and yet he is only 'prepared' to appear in person at a place in his area. lol

Anyway, it's an interesting topic. ;)

 

Edited by Alistair Briggs

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Posted (edited)

8 hours ago, Paul Trejo said:

Brad,

Here's my best guess about how the "undesirable" discharge happened -- based on input from Victor Marchetti and logical deduction:

1.  LHO certainly was in the ONI program, and proved he had the right stuff by getting himself into the USSR by his own wits and guile.

2.  LHO signed on to the ONI program through what was called the "dangle" program.   This is what former CIA agent Victor Marchetti said -- not just my guess.

3.  The ONI "dangle" program was a low-level training mission, that involved three years of service.  It would prove intelligence and team playing.

4.  The ONI "dangle" program required at least 12 agents in the field, none of which knew the others, nor what the ultimate mission was.  This was for safety.

5.  Each "dangle" had a specific mission -- to identify specific people, and spot them when they came into town, then report this ASAP.   That's it.  That's all.

6.  The ONI "dangle" program coordinators would collect all this data over a three-year period, and would construct a Location-model for special suspects. 

7.  After two years of his work on the ONI "dangle" program, LHO got bored.  He married Marina and they had a baby. 

8.  Marina had no idea that LHO was on a "dangle" program -- she was 19, and thrilled to marry an American, because she wanted to go to the USA more than anything else in the whole wide world.

9.  Marina bugged LHO every day to quit his job and raise his children in the USA.  Finally, LHO caved in to Marina Oswald.

10.  LHO quit his job, but he also quit the ONI "dangle" program prematurely.   He probably knew he did the wrong thing.  But he was no match for Marina Oswald.

11. LHO successfully got passage for himself and his family back to the USA -- and had no clue that his Marine discharge would be downgraded as a result of his quitting the ONI.

12.  When LHO found out that his Marine discharge was downgraded to "undesirable,"  he wrote to the person he believed was the US Secretary of Navy, John Connally.

13.  LHO was then informed by the Navy that John Connally was no longer the US Secretary of Navy, but had left that job in December 1961. 

14.  LHO at that point realized that John Connally was not to blame for his condition.  LHO did not have any hard feelings against John Connally. 

15.  LHO never wrote anything bad about John Connally, and never said anything bad about John Connally, to the very best of my knowledge.

16.  LHO was indeed held back in Texas because he had an "undesirable" discharge from the Marines.   He knew it, and everybody knew it.

17.  To get jobs, LHO simply didn't mention his discharge status.  He learned to change the topic real quick, and evade an answer to the question.

18.  LHO continually tried various routes to upgrade his Marine status, however, he also had a wife and family to feed, and he had little time for bureaucratic shuffling.

19.  When LHO got to New Orleans, he was able to get Clay Shaw to pay for legal advice from Dean Andrews for help in upgrading his Marine status.   Nothing came of it.

20.  LHO did not shoot at anybody from the 6th floor of the TSBD.  

21.  Like an idiot, LHO handed over his rifle to a trusted "friend" and confederate of Guy Banister, early in the morning of 11/22/1963.   That was it.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited by Alistair Briggs

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Posted (edited)

12 hours ago, Joe Bauer said:

The Oswald dishonorable discharge subject is very interesting and worthy of factoring into speculation regards some of Oswald's possible inner feelings of resentment, anger and frustration.

A dishonorable discharge could ruin someone's career opportunity life for sure, especially if they are just starting out and from the lowest economic ladder rung already and with a young family to support, and would need help finding and securing decent paying and benefited jobs and maybe even going to college. Clearly Oswald knew this and seriously tried to reverse the DD. 

But, in regards to Oswald possibly wanting revenge on Connally, if Oswald was shooting from the 6th floor of the TSBD building on 11,22,1963 with the intent of exacting this upon John Connally,  what a pitifully incompetent effort as JFK's back and head got in the way with two shots and a third missing everyone ( except James Tague? ) and even the limo itself!

Has anyone ever investigated whether there was some bad blood between Oswald and James Tague? :rolleyes:

In the film "JFK" when Kevin Costner's Jim Garrison is actually in the TSBD 6th floor snipers lair and crouched down looking out the window and directly at the JFK shooting site on Elm, his chief investigator Lou Ivon (Jay. O. Sanders ) who is standing right next to Garrison and also looking out that window, spontaneously makes an observation comment of how much easier and accurate it would have been for Oswald to have shot at JFK ( and/or Connally? ) when he was coming down Houston street straight towards him and at a much closer distance and direct line of fire range.

Whether this "JFK" film scene and dialogue was made up or not, the Ivon question was and still is perfectly valid from a shooter's point of view.

Illogically Oswald waits until JFK's limo and body target is farther away and getting smaller by the second than it was on Houston coming toward him, not to mention the limo is now going down an incline. But, despite those facts of more difficult target alignment decisions, non-marksmen - cheap rifle with misaligned scope firing Oswald then makes two direct hits on JFK with the second one being a perfect  "bulls-eye" into JFK's moving head at 265 feet.

Considering the question of Oswald choosing the more difficult and risky shooting task on Elm versus Houston, it makes more sense in the context of there being a designated triangular shooting zone and that was in the more open area of Elm where the heavy tree, shadows and picket fence could help obscure another hidden shooter.

Edited by Alistair Briggs

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Posted (edited)

7 hours ago, Brad Milch said:

Fascinating reads, Paul, Alistair & Joe!

One could certainly find motivation for LHO to allegedly abuse Marina for pressuring him to quit the ONI program (that Paul tells us LHO was involved in) & thus receiving an undesirable discharge as a result. It appears to have been the old 'YOU ruined my life' story that has historically cancered its way into many, many relationships with disastrous results throughout time (if that was the case in LHO's relationship to Marina).

Quick question for Paul: where is the LHO ONI Program paperwork? Anyone who's ever been in the US military knows nothing is done without paper orders, particularly when G.I.'s are sent somewhere on missions. It's understandable that soldiers on sensitive, dangerous missions wouldn't carry incriminating paperwork on their persons. Such a paper trail would be maintained somewhere in the headquarters that soldier was assigned to.

Apparently, John Connally & his pretty wife Nellie had their own misconceptions about LHO's discharge from the Marines. I recall several interviews in which John Connally stated he felt LHO was shooting at him & hit JFK by accident. Nellie told Larry King in 2003 that John Connally was involved in not re-instating LHO's discharge back to Honorable IIRC. Nellie also felt LHO was shooting at her husband & hit JFK by accident.

I guess I'm not the only one that mis-remembers stuff (sniffle).

Best,

Brad Milch

Edited by Alistair Briggs

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Posted (edited)

6 hours ago, Paul Trejo said:

Brad,

I cannot remember where John or Nellie Connally suspected that LHO was shooting at John.   Certainly other people thought so -- because John was surely hit by at least one bullet from behind the JFK limo.

Although the motive to kill Connally was imputed to LHO by speculators -- it was not found among his personal writings or conversations that ANY of the WC witnesses recalled.

As for the ONI paperwork, that question goes to former CIA agent Victor Marchetti, who came up with the idea in the first place.   His status as a CIA employee gives a special weight to this theory.

As for LHO beating Marina due to the fiasco of the ONI "dangle" screw-up and the consequent "undesirable" discharge, IMHO that was just one more straw on the camel's back.

A careful study of LHO beating Marina shows that this occurred only within a specific four-month period of their relationship -- from August 1962 to November 1962.  It almost always involved a man named George Bouhe.

LHO did not beat Marina Oswald in the USSR.   LHO did not beat Marina Oswald in New Orleans.  It was only during their stay in Fort Worth -- and then one day in Dallas (their first night at Elsbeth Street, November 4, 1962), after which George De Mohrenschildt separated the couple for two weeks  -- and then on November 17, 1962, LHO went begging for Marina's forgiveness, and she forgave him, and then he never beat her again -- to the best of my knowledge.

Surely the pressure for LHO to get a job, keep a job, and keep up with the Joneses contributed to the beatings.   Surely the fact that George Bouhe collected "a hundred dresses" for Marina Oswald (according to Jeanne De Mohrenschildt) contributed to the beatings, since LHO could not match that level of breadwinning for Marina. 

Surely the fact that LHO could not get a good job because of his "undesirable" discharge from the Marines contributed, as possibly the fact that Marina was to blame for nagging LHO to move to the USA in the first place.

All these factors were contributing -- but we should look at the other side of the coin.  LHO never beat Marina in Russia, and never beat her in New Orleans.  It was only in Texas, and only when under pressure.  LHO was terrified that Marina would leave him in favor of one of the "yuppie" Russian Expatriates in Dallas.  

LHO apparently beat Marina for talking with Alex Kleinlerer, who was apparently a known wolf (see Mrs. Don Gibson's WC testimony).  The fact that Marina's skirt was incompletely zipped up at the time was just an excuse, in my interpretation.

Also, Marina forgave LHO on November 17, 1962, and he never beat her again.  Instead, they stayed in Dallas, far away from the Russian Expatriates, and LHO kept Marina in a pumpkin shell -- alone, barefooted and pregnant -- and refused to help her learn English.   LHO was a very insecure person, obviously.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited by Alistair Briggs

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Posted (edited)

*First NEW comment;

Paul, one thing that stood out for me from your list of 21 was the first few leading up to and including number 7;

Quote

7.  After two years of his work on the ONI "dangle" program, LHO got bored.  He married Marina and they had a baby. 

I don't know if you have ever read the 'Timeline of Lee Harvey Oswald' by W Tracy Parnell. The part of that of relevancy here starts with "August 17, 1959: LHO requests a dependency discharge because of an injury sustained by his mother", from that point forwards there is quite a bit of information regarding his move to Russia and some of the things he did there - I wonder how some of those things fit in with your thoughts?

Regards

 

 

Edited by Alistair Briggs

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Posted (edited)

6 hours ago, Alistair Briggs said:

*First NEW comment;

Paul, one thing that stood out for me from your list of 21 was the first few leading up to and including number 7;

I don't know if you have ever read the 'Timeline of Lee Harvey Oswald' by W Tracy Parnell. The part of that of relevancy here starts with "August 17, 1959: LHO requests a dependency discharge because of an injury sustained by his mother", from that point forwards there is quite a bit of information regarding his move to Russia and some of the things he did there - I wonder how some of those things fit in with your thoughts?

Regards

Alistair,

Yes, I'm familiar with Parnell 's Timeline.

iMHO, if (and only if) LHO was in the ONI dangle program, then we must say that LHO 's dependency discharge was invented by the ONI or by LHO on their behalf.

The purpose of that excuse was to create a paper trail to hide the real purpose of an ONI secret training mission.

LHO was home only a few days on that discharge before he rushed to Russia.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

 

 

Edited by Paul Trejo

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Posted (edited)

@Paul Trejo:

I expect this thread will appeal to a multitude of Education Forum readers as it progresses, particularly those either currently serving our country in the military, in a reserve status, employed by military contractors, separated or retired from past federal service. The common denominator for all of us is we all know there is a chain of command that extends up to the President of the USA, we all know what the consequences of breaking the rules are, nothing is done without approval & 'going rogue', if caught at it, usually results in severe consequences. Some might even equate what happened in the LHO saga during & after his military service to real life events presently happening in their own careers.

I'll be the first to admit that, as a former US soldier & now retired Federal servant, the story of LHO before & after his military service is really weird to me. Much of it doesn't make any sense to me at all. In a lot of the story, I try to place myself in LHO's shoes & ask myself what would I do in the same situation? Who would I go to for help if I felt I had been shafted? Would I have exhausted all means of attempts at remedy before I might contemplate bringing a weapon to my place of employment & horrifically ambushing two defenseless men & murdering one of them instantly and the other over time (John Connally).

I'll be looking to answers to those questions as this thread progresses.

So far, Paul has opened the door to allegations that LHO worked for the ONI during his marine service overseas. Is that really the case? Doesn't this place LHO in a category of 'elite service' to the USA (similar to the Navy Seals, Green Berets & other Special Forces)? If so, why didn't LHO appeal to his Congressman, State Senators, the Pentagon, VA on up to the then President of the USA, legal assistance available to him, etc. when his discharge from the military was downgraded to 'undesirable' & placed him in an economic & educational prison?

Taking the government of the time period at its word that LHO was the solo assassin of JFK & J.D. Tippit, how does one explain abandoning all the help available to LHO to get him back on his feet following his undesirable discharge to the extreme action of allegedly blasting an unsuspecting man's brains out of his head & all over his wife sitting beside him in a car on a public street?

Sincerely & Respectfully,

Brad Milch

Edited by Brad Milch

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3 hours ago, Paul Trejo said:

iMHO, if (and only if) LHO was in the ONI dangle program, then we must say that LHO 's dependency discharge was invented by the ONI or by LHO on their behalf.

The 'official' story is that LHO asked for the dependency discharge because of an injury sustained to his mother. There certainly had been an injury to his mother. Still sounds like an excuse to get out the Marines though - rather than spend time 'nursing' his mother back from injury, within a week he was off on his travels...

3 hours ago, Paul Trejo said:

LHO was home only a few days on that discharge before he rushed to Russia.

I know that Russia was his final destination! Leaving the US on the 20th of September, sailng to France and arriving there 8th of October, hops over to England, hops on a plane to Finland and it is only when he is Finland that he applies for a visa to visit Russia, he is given a visa that expires one week later...

Oswald's diary of the time (transcript here) is also of interest in terms of his state of mind. In the 17months between arriving in Russia and first meeting Marina there was a lot going on for Oswald. He seems to be up and down and up and down in his mental state.

Is that kind of person good material for an 'ONI dangle program'?

Regards

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Posted (edited)

2 hours ago, Alistair Briggs said:

The 'official' story is that LHO asked for the dependency discharge because of an injury sustained to his mother. There certainly had been an injury to his mother. Still sounds like an excuse to get out the Marines though - rather than spend time 'nursing' his mother back from injury, within a week he was off on his travels...

I know that Russia was his final destination! Leaving the US on the 20th of September, sailng to France and arriving there 8th of October, hops over to England, hops on a plane to Finland and it is only when he is Finland that he applies for a visa to visit Russia, he is given a visa that expires one week later...

Oswald's diary of the time (transcript here) is also of interest in terms of his state of mind. In the 17months between arriving in Russia and first meeting Marina there was a lot going on for Oswald. He seems to be up and down and up and down in his mental state.

Is that kind of person good material for an 'ONI dangle program'?

Regards

Alistair,

There is no known proof that LHO was working on that ONI dangle program -- we only know from former CIA agent Victor Marchetti that the ONI dangle program did exist, and that young 19 year boys like LHO were recruited.

LHO had a few positives and a few negatives on his list.  On the positive side, he was a Marine, and both of his brothers served in the US Armed Services.   Also, he was eager to learn -- he had taught himself Russian in 1959, and even took a Russian language test.  Although he didn't ace that test -- nevertheless, for anybody to learn as much Russian, self-taught, as LHO, was impressive.  Thirdly, LHO was ambitious -- he wanted to do something with his life.

On the negative side, LHO was a high-school dropout.  Also, LHO did not now how to drive a car.  Also, LHO could not spell very well.   So, he was not a perfect candidate.  Nevertheless, LHO was only 19, and teenagers can be taught, and some of them turn out to surprise us by their later accomplishments.  So, according to Victor Marchetti, LHO would have been interesting to the ONI.

Marchetti also notes -- the "dangle" program was a "trainee" program.  It was like an internship -- with a long, 3-year probation period.

If (and only if) Victor Marchetti is correct, then this gives us a clue into the problems that LHO would face in later life.  Because according to the events, LHO "went rogue" and quit the "dangle program" ahead of schedule after only 2 years.   It seems that LHO was head-strong, arrogant as young men tend to be, and didn't understand the consequences of his quitting the program.

The first consequence was a shocker -- his Marine discharge was downgraded to "undesirable".   LHO, as it turns out, would never live that down.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited by Paul Trejo

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36 minutes ago, Paul Trejo said:

The first consequence was a shocker -- his Marine discharge was downgraded to "undesirable".   LHO, as it turns out, would never live that down.

I have been doing a bit of digging about with regards to the discharge being downgraded and what Oswald did about it...

from what I have found so far, it was downgraded to 'undesirable' on September 13th (possibly 11th) 1960 but Oswald didn't find out about it until January 30th 1962 when his mother wrote to tell him, that very same day he wrote his letter to Connally about it. The letter was passed on to Fred Korth and the Navy responded to Oswald saying that it wouldn't be changed, not sure when Oswald recieved it, but it has to be before the 22nd of March as that was the day that he wrote to R. McC. Tompkins, Brigadier General USMC, Assistant Director of Personnel about it. The next time I can find mention of the discharge was on July 25th 1963 when his request for it to be changed was denied.

... Would the impact of his downgraded discharge result in 'problems' getting a 'good' job? On face value I would tend to say the answer to that would be no.

Quote

Undesirable discharge refers to an administrative discharge under "conditions other than honorable.” It is generally given to a member of the military who does not qualify for an honorable discharge. An undesirable discharge does not involve punishment. It reflects only that the military has found the particular individual unfit or unsuitable for further service.

Of course that's not to say that Oswald may have thought it would be a problem - or perhaps using it as an 'excuse' for his own limitations!

Anyway,

what you mention about the 'positives' and 'negatives' of Oswald, I see what you are saying there and think you make a good point there.

What do you make of Oswald's 'personal' relationships, especially in regards to members of the opposite sex?

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