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Alistair Briggs

The Discharge Of Lee Harvey Oswald And Other Related Issues

180 posts in this topic

6 hours ago, Brad Milch said:

I'll be looking to answers to those questions as this thread progresses.

In one of your previous comments you mentioned the following;

Quote

Apparently, John Connally & his pretty wife Nellie had their own misconceptions about LHO's discharge from the Marines. I recall several interviews in which John Connally stated he felt LHO was shooting at him & hit JFK by accident. Nellie told Larry King in 2003 that John Connally was involved in not re-instating LHO's discharge back to Honorable IIRC. Nellie also felt LHO was shooting at her husband & hit JFK by accident.

In furtherance to that,

Here is a section from the book 'From Love Field (our final hours with president John F Kennedy)' written by Nellie Connally and Mickey Herskowitz. First published 2003.

Quote

Enough has been written about that horrible time, and
the Warren Commission itself, to fill a thousand volumes.
Suffice it to say that the weight of the evidence we know
about convince both John and me that Oswald -- a twenty-
four-year-old stock clerk who had been hired a month before
to work in the Book Depository -- had acted alone: a fact
supported by a little investigation we conducted on our own
almost ten years later.

When then-President Nixon appointed my husband
as secretary of the treasury in 1973, John found himself in
charge of our nation's major intelligence branches. With
an obvious personal interest in the case and a stake in an
unbiased outcome, he pored over every classified document,
every memo, every report prepared on the subject. Along
with his other duties, he spent months researching every scrap
of evidence and found nothing to change his mind. As he said
on the twentieth anniversary of the tragedy in 1983, "Nobody
in America can keep a secret that big for that long."

More chilling to us personally was the fact that Oswald's
dishonorable discharge papers had been signed by none other
than Kennedy's then-secretary of the Navy, John Connally.
We learned Oswald had written letters protesting that decision,
but if his anger had been directed at John, it was misplaced.
At the time of Oswald's discharge, my husband was back in
Texas, busily campaigning to be its next governor.

We'll never know if Oswald knew his imaginary
anatgonist was in the same car as the President he hated, but
the idea that John might have been a target still sends chills up
and down my spine.

As I write these words, forty years after the fact, the
assassination of President Kennedy has passed from the realm
of law and politics into the world of mythology, so conspiracy
theorists will still have their say. But as far as I'm concerned --
as the last living member of the two happy couples who rode
in that deadly car -- the case is closed, though it cannot be,
and never shoud be, forgotten.

 

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Posted (edited)

2 hours ago, Alistair Briggs said:

I have been doing a bit of digging about with regards to the discharge being downgraded and what Oswald did about it...

from what I have found so far, it was downgraded to 'undesirable' on September 13th (possibly 11th) 1960 but Oswald didn't find out about it until January 30th 1962 when his mother wrote to tell him, that very same day he wrote his letter to Connally about it. The letter was passed on to Fred Korth and the Navy responded to Oswald saying that it wouldn't be changed, not sure when Oswald recieved it, but it has to be before the 22nd of March as that was the day that he wrote to R. McC. Tompkins, Brigadier General USMC, Assistant Director of Personnel about it. The next time I can find mention of the discharge was on July 25th 1963 when his request for it to be changed was denied.

... Would the impact of his downgraded discharge result in 'problems' getting a 'good' job? On face value I would tend to say the answer to that would be no.

Of course that's not to say that Oswald may have thought it would be a problem - or perhaps using it as an 'excuse' for his own limitations!

Anyway,

what you mention about the 'positives' and 'negatives' of Oswald, I see what you are saying there and think you make a good point there.

What do you make of Oswald's 'personal' relationships, especially in regards to members of the opposite sex?

Alistair,

Good research on LHO's discharge downgrade and what he did about it.   Regarding that late July 1963 official denial of a change -- was that processed through New Orleans attorney Dean Andrews by any chance?   If so, Jim Garrison uncovered data showing that Clay Shaw paid for that legal service.

As for Oswald's personal relationships -- especially regarding women -- it seems to me that Oswald was heterosexual.  Marina was not his first choice in Russia, by the way -- LHO had a girlfriend whom  he liked very much, and asked to marry, but her father was against it, and she would not cross her father.  So, LHO was heartbroken for awhile.  Along came Marina. 

Marina assertively pursued LHO, because he was young, and American and seemed to be well-to-do.   LHO lived in a new apartment complex -- in his own bachelor pad -- when most workers in Minsk lived in crowded quarters, and shared bathrooms and kitchens.  LHO was not only getting a salary from the radio factory, but he was also getting a stipend from the Red Cross -- for some bizarre reason.  Altogether his income was almost equal to a manager's income.  So, to Marina, LHO looked well-to-do and financially clever.

Also, if she could marry an American, Marina had a chance for her young life's dream -- to live in America.  Not only did the teenage Marina have a college degree (in pharmacology) but she never joined the Communist Party, and dragged her feet at the meetings.  

An orphan, Marina was mainly raised by her grandmother, who was an Aristocrat from the pre-Revolutionary Russia, and had gone to schools for noble women.  Her grandmother raised Marina to speak very proper Russian.  This is why Marina's command of Russian language was so well-sung in Dallas and Fort Worth.  If not for the fact that she later grew up in the poverty of an ordinary worker in Minsk in the late 1950's and early 1960's, Marina could have aristocratic.

But that was impossible in Communist Russia.  It was only possible in the USA.   Marina would assertively try to get to America.  LHO was her best option.

LHO fell for Marina hook, line and sinker.  But LHO was never able to satisfy Marina -- either financially or sexually.  This is what Marina confided to Jeanne De Mohrenschildt.  Here is what George De Mohrenschildt testified about LHO's sexual proclivities:

Mr. JENNER. What impression, if you have any, do you have with respect to his sexual habits? Did you ever have any thoughts?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. As to whether he was a homosexual?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. No.
Mr. JENNER. He was not in your opinion?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't think so, I think he was an asexual person, asexual, and as I told you before, Marina was bitterly complaining about her lack of satisfaction. This is really the time that we decided just to drop them you see. One of the reasons you see we decided not to see them again, because we both found it revolting, such a discussion of marital habits in front of relative strangers as we were, see.

I think George DM make some valid points.  LHO was not very sexual, partly because he was struggling to figure out how other people got money -- how they could own cars -- how they could own their own houses -- or at least move into comfortable apartments, instead of the rat-holes that LHO could afford.  This took all his time, as LHO read Marxist claptrap trying to figure out the secrets capitalism.  What a waste.

Since LHO had no education and no connections, he had no chance of a career -- thus LHO daydreamed about becoming a double-agent for the CIA.  He would have money and Marina would love him, and his children would love him and all would be well.  That way LHO could salvage his Russian language skills and his Marxist rhetoric skills -- they would not have been total wastes of time after all.

I say this is why LHO shot at General Walker -- in order to please George DM and Volkmar Schmidt (and maybe Michael Paine) who were whining about Walker day and night.   LHO believed that George DM was a CIA agent who could get him a job in the CIA.  That was LHO's motive, IMHO. 

When it turned out that George DM was shocked at LHO's behavior, LHO's heart sunk.   Another loss.   George told his friends Igor and Natasha Voshinin, and Natasha called the FBI that very morning of April 14, 1963 (according to Dick Russell, TMWKTM, 1992).   The FBI told Walker that very day; and Walker told Guy Banister that very day, who told David Ferrie that very day, IMHO.

David Ferrie invited LHO to come to New Orleans where Guy Banister could give him one more chance to become a double-agent.  So LHO went there -- right into the clutches of Guy Banister who was (unknown to LHO) a good pal of General Walker.  There was LHO's doom.  There was JFK's doom, too.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited by Paul Trejo
clarity

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Posted (edited)

Slipping back in LHO's timeline a bit, I'd like to comment on what might, could or should have been playing on LHO's mind at that point in time between the hardship discharge & the undesirable discharge.

From my own personal experience in the military, a lot of  young soldiers do not have a clue as to what they are going to do to support themselves once separated from the military. All of the available options for education & employment aren't always presented to them in a timely manner that enables a timely response. For example, it wasn't until several years after I was honorably discharged from the Army that I learned that had I applied for a position with a post office, I would have been placed on the priority list above 30 point veterans waiting in line for jobs for a 90 day period. Unfortunately for me, I learned this info too late to take advantage of it. I'm presuming LHO may have landed in a similar boat in his exit from the military. [Note: Had I known about, applied for & gotten accepted as a postal worker when I separated from the military, I might have found out for myself why the mail carrier, no matter where I have ever lived, cannot seem to find my correct mailbox on a day to day basis & place only MY mail in it. I might have also learned why the mail carrier is late all the time & appears tired often, as if having just run a marathon [LOL].

Not being properly prepared for return to civilian life may be the reason so many veterans end up hanging out in bars & honky tonks, involved in drugs, involved in fights, murders & arrests, alcoholics & the rest of the sordid things that type of life often rewards its participants with on their journey down the road to skid row.

I'm looking at this part of the story as comparing similarities between LHO & myself:

- Neither of us were born into a family of wealth that could or would support us in any way, shape or form

- Both of us liked to read & watch TV programs

- Neither of us had a dependable father

- Both of us were veterans

- Both of us served our country overseas during the Cold War

- Both of us served in the military at about the same age (LHO started at age 17, I started at age 19)

- Both of us enjoyed the company of & interaction with women

- Both of us married young in age in relationships that culminated in disaster (with alleged hanky panky prevalent by both relationship members) 

At this point in LHO's saga, I'm thinking along the lines that LHO should have been pursuing what doors his time in service could open for him in the areas of employment & education. From there, LHO should have been pursing correcting the losses his undesirable discharge bought him; the doors that would never open up for him.

I can envision LHO camping out on the doorsteps of his local VA upon his return to the USA from Russia until what was wrong in his life (undesirable discharge) was repaired. It might have been possible for LHO to have returned to active/reserve duty to 'work off' the undesirable discharge. I can also envision LHO realizing in Russia (via family letters & US Embassy briefings) that denouncing his US citizenship & threatening to divulge military secrets to an enemy would cost him his opportunity to attend college & earn a degree under the US G.I. Bill. Not to mention the risk of US authorities arresting & detaining LHO for treason once he stepped foot out of the Soviet Union.

I'm not sure about it, but it might have been possible for LHO to have attended a Russian college while the VA paid for it under the G.I. Bill (had LHO not pulled his 'defection' stunt). The dates between LHO's hardship discharge vs. when the undesirable discharge kicked in would certainly factor in to what was possible in LHO assistance & aid available to him at that point in his strange, busy young life.

Brad Milch  

Edited by Brad Milch

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19 minutes ago, Paul Trejo said:

Regarding that late July 1963 official denial of a change -- was that processed through New Orleans attorney Dean Andrews by any chance?   If so, Jim Garrison uncovered data showing that Clay Shaw paid for that legal service.

I don't know. I will add it to my list of things to keep an eye out for and if I come across something I will post it here.

20 minutes ago, Paul Trejo said:

As for Oswald's personal relationships -- especially regarding women -- it seems to me that Oswald was heterosexual.  Marina was not his first choice in Russia, by the way -- LHO had a girlfriend whom  he liked very much, and asked to marry, but her father was against it, and she would not cross her father.  So, LHO was heartbroken for awhile.  Along came Marina.

Oh it's a lot more complicated than that. lol

On the subject of Oswald and girls (from arrving in Russia to the point of being married to Marina), I have parsed the following relevant parts from Oswald's diary from that period. (I have bolded the 'highlights')

Quote

Oct. 21 1959 Poor Rima stays by my side as interpreter (my Russian is still very bad) far into the night. I tell her, "go home" (my mood is bad) but she stays, she is "my friend" She has a strong will. Only at this moment I notice she is pretty.

Oct. 23 1959 Afternoon. I am visited by Rosa Agafonova of the hotel tourist office, who asks me about my health. Very beautiful, excellent English, very merry and kind. She makes me very glad to be alive. Later Rima vists

Dec 31 1959 New Years eve, I spend in the company of Rosa Agafonova at the Hotel Berlin. She has the duty. I sit with her until past midnight. She gives me a small "Boratin" clown for a New Years present. She is very nice. I found out only recently she is married, has small son who was born crippled; that is why she is so strangely tender and compelling.

Jan 7 1960 Arrive in Minsk, met by 2 women Red Cross workers. We go to hotel "Minsk." I take room and meet Rosa and Stellina, two persons from Intourist in hotel who speak English. Stellina is in 40's, nice, married, young child. Rosa about 23, blond, attractive, unmarried, excellent English. We attract each other at once.

Jan 13 - 16 1960 At night I take Rosa to the theater, movie, or opera almost every day. I'm living big and am very satisfied. I

March 17 - April 31 1960 - Work. I have lost contact with Rosa after my house moving.

May 1 1960 At night I visit with the Ziger's daughters at a party thrown by them. About 40 people came, many of Argentinian origin. We dance and play around and drink until 2 a.m. when party breaks up. Leonara Ziger oldest daughter, 26, formally married, now divorced, a talented singer. Anita Ziger, 20, very gay, not so attractive but we hit it off. Her boyfriend, Alfred, is a Hungarian chap, silent, and brooding, not at all like Anita.

 

June-July 1960 Summer months of green beauty; pine forest very deep. I enjoy many Sundays in the environments of Minsk with the Zigers who have a car, "mos-vick." Alfred always goes along with Anita, Leonara seems to have no permenant boyfriend but many admirers. She has a beautiful Spanish figure, long black hair, like Anita. I never pay much attention to her; she's too old for m. She seems to dislike my lack of attention for some reason. She is high strung.

Oct 18 1960 My 21st birthday sees Rosa, Pavel, Ella at a small party at my place. Ella, a very attractive Russian Jew I have been going walking with lately, works at the radio factory also. Rosa and Ella are jealous of each other. It brings a warm feeling to me. Both are at my place for the first time. Ella and Pavel both give ashtrays (I don't smoke); we have a laugh.

Nov 1960 Finds the approach of winter now. A growing loneliness overtakes me in spite of my conquest of Ennatachina, a girl from Riga, studying at the music conservatory in Minsk. After an affair which lasts a few weeks, we part.

Nov 15 1960 In Nov. I make the acquaintance of four girls rooming at the For. Ian. dormitory in room 212. Nell is very interesting, so is Tomka, Tomis and Alla

Dec 1 1960  I am having an light affair with Nell Korobka.

Jan 1 1961 New Years I spend at home of Ella German. I think I'm in love with her. She has refused my more dishonorable advances. We drink and eat in the presence of her family in a very hospitable atmosphere. Later I go home drunk and happy. Passing the river homeward, I decide to propose to Ella.

Jan. 2  1961 After a pleasant hand-in-hand walk to the local cinema, we come home, standing on the doorstep I propose. She hesitates, then refuses, my love is real but she has none for me. Her reason besides lack of love; I am American and someday might be arrested simply because of that example Polish Intervention in the 20's led to the arrest of all people in the Soviet Union of polish origin. "You understand the world situation. There is too much against you and you don't even know it." I am stunned. She snickers at my awkwardness. In turning to go (I am too stunned to think!) I realize she was never serious with me but only exploited my being an American in order to get the envy of the other girls who consider me differed from the Russian Boys. I am miserable!

Jan 3 1961 I am miserable about Ella. I love her but what can I do? It is the state of fear which was always in the Soviet Union.

March 17 1961 I and Erich went to trade union dance. Boring, but at the last hour I am introduced to a girl with a French hair-do and red-dress with white slipper. I dance with her, then ask to show her home. I do, along with 5 other admirers. Her name is Marina. We like each other right away. She gives me her phone number and departs home with a not-so-new friend in a taxi. I walk home.

March 18-31 1961 We walk. I talk a little about myself, she talks alot about herself. Her name is Marina N. Prusakova.

Apr. 1st-30  1961 We are going steady and I decide I must have her. She puts me off so on April 15, I propose. She accepts.

April 31 1961 After a 7 day delay at the marriage bureau because of my unusual passport, they allow us to register as man & wife.

Note (as per the footnotes to Norman Mailer's book Oswald's Tale) Nell Korobka should be Nellya Korbinka and Ennatachina should be Inna Tachina.

To me that all speaks volumes about his 'attitude' to 'love'.

Take the two Ziger daughters for example, He calls Leonara 'high strung' because she doesn't like that he isn't giving her attention and he isn't giving her attention because, at 26, she is too old for him and despite stating that she has a 'beautiful Spanish figure' and admitting that Anita is not as attractive he decides to 'pine' for the younger one who is 'off limits' as she has a boyfriend.

Then there is Rosa who he had been 'dating' and then lost contact with a few months previous to the time he had first started seeing Ella, and then the both of them are at his at the same time and he mentions that they are jealous of each other and that gives Oswald a 'warm feeling'. Aye right enough, every man's dream eh to have two girls 'fighting' over your affection. lol

Then within the next two months he has made a 'conquest' of Inna Tachina and also had an 'affair' with Nellya Korbinka and all of a sudden he is in love with Ella and wants to marry her and that's after she had refused his dishonorable advances! Is it any wonder she turned him down really. lol Not to worry 3 months later he will be introduced to Marina and within 2 weeks ask her to marry him and 2 weeks later they are married.

Anyway, what I parsed from Oswald's diary above is all just about what he says about the girls. There is so much more in that diary about his 'emotional' state generally that also (imo) speaks volumes.

Regards

 

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8 hours ago, Brad Milch said:

...So far, Paul has opened the door to allegations that LHO worked for the ONI during his marine service overseas. 

Is that really the case?

Doesn't this place LHO in a category of 'elite service' to the USA (similar to the Navy Seals, Green Berets & other Special Forces)?

If so, why didn't LHO appeal to his Congressman, State Senators, the Pentagon, VA on up to the then President of the USA, legal assistance available to him, etc. when his discharge from the military was downgraded to 'undesirable' & placed him in an economic & educational prison?

...

Sincerely & Respectfully,

Brad Milch

Brad,

Your questions are varied and complex.  I'll do my best.

1.  Was LHO really a "dangle" trainee for the ONI?   Former CIA agent Victor Marchetti believes so.  It is eminently possible.  However, we don't need to make this claim in order to explain the rest of LHO's life.

2.  What we do know is what happened after LHO came back to the USA with Marina Oswald and baby June.  He first recognized that his Marine discharge had been downgraded.

3.  I had posted my opinion that this "downgrade" was a direct result of LHO quitting the ONI "dangle" trainee program prematurely.   This would have been a big mistake on the part of LHO, and would have proven his inability to be a Team Player. 

4.  The "dangle" training was ruined.  But LHO had no important secret information at this point.    The ONI did not really trust its "dangles" with anything important.  They were never told the other names of the other dangles, or their locations.   They were never told what their ultimate mission was, or how their information was processed.

4.1.  I am reminded of something that George DeMohrenschildt testified:

Mr. JENNER.   Did you form any impression in the area, let us say, of reliability---that is, whether our Government would entrust him with something that required a high degree of intelligence, a high degree of imagination, a high degree of ability to retain his equilibrium under pressure, a management of a situation, to be flexible enough?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.   I never would believe that any government would be stupid enough to trust Lee with anything important.

5.  So, even though LHO was on a secret training mission, and even though he bailed out of that mission -- the US Government was not at risk.  A trainee had failed his training, and that is really the only loss.

6.  Yet, if this is correct, then LHO broke faith with the ONI, and he would have to pay the consequences -- a downgraded Marine discharge.

7.  HOWEVER, what if this is INCORRECT?

8.  I say this because even if LHO was never in the ONI "dangle" program, this was not change our timeline of LHO in the USA very much at all.

9.  I say this because Alistair's research of LHO's activity with regard to his discharge downgrade showing something rather startling.

10.  Alistair said: "From what I have found so far, it was downgraded to 'undesirable' on September 13th (possibly 11th) 1960 but Oswald didn't find out about it until January 30th 1962 when his mother wrote to tell him."  This rattles my former opinion, because LHO didn't request to return to the USA until February 1961 -- a full six months later. 

11. In other words, LHO was already downgraded before he ever quit the "dangle" program in February 1961 (if he was indeed a dangle in the first place).

12.  This suggests a whole knew interpretation to me -- that perhaps LHO was never in the ONI "dangle" program at all. 

13.  If this new interpretation is correct, then LHO really did -- entirely on his own -- seek to defect to the USSR, to see if his sad life in the USA would be any better in the USSR.

14.   In this new interpretation, LHO's life was better -- he got a steady job -- he got his own bachelor pad -- he went to parties and met people his own age -- and he lived among equals for the most part.  Nobody else had a car.  Nobody else knew how to drive.  Nobody else owned their own home.  Nobody else owned their own business.   LHO was finally the equal of everybody in his town.

15.  Even compared with his boss at the factory -- LHO got a stipend from the Red Cross, so that income combined with his factory income almost matched his manager's income.  LHO was never so socially high in his life than when he was in the USSR.

16.  Based on this -- we do no need to posit that LHO was in the ONI.   We only need to understand that LHO was putting on airs for Marina, and Marina bought the whole "rich-American" persona, and called  his bluff -- "Let's move to the USA"!

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

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35 minutes ago, Brad Milch said:

I'm looking at this part of the story as comparing similarities between LHO & myself:

- Neither of us were born into a family of wealth that could or would support us in any way, shape or form

- Both of us liked to read & watch TV programs

- Neither of us had a dependable father

- Both of us were veterans

- Both of us served our country overseas

In a previous thread I mentioned that I felt 'pity' for Lee Harvey Oswald. His life from childhood upwards was not great as this timeline attests.What chance in life did he really have.

Anyway, yeah, I think it is a good thing to compare similarities between LHO and either ourselves or someone we know in a comaprable position. Trying to draw on our known experiences and seeing how that might match up with his situation. It's a good tactic indeed. ;)

37 minutes ago, Brad Milch said:

I can envision LHO camping out on the doorsteps of his local VA until what was wrong in his life (undesirable discharge) was repaired. I can also envision LHO realizing that denouncing his US citizenship & threatening to divulge military secrets to an enemy would cost him his opportunity to attend college & earn a degree under the G.I. Bill.

At the time of Oswald denouncing his US citizenship and threatening to divulge secrets, even if he had known was the result of that would have been (his discharge being downgraded) would he have worried about that. His thought process at the time would surely be that he was wanting to become a Soviet citizen and if successful whatver his discharge from the US Navy was would be irrelevant. It only became a 'problem' when he knew he was coming back to the US.

Interestingly you mention about how you can envision him camping out until it was repaired. I agree with that thought. See if it was me in that position at the time and I wanted it to be changed I would be doing everything in my power to make it happen - if that meant travelling half way across the country then so be it - if it meant camping out for weeks then so be it.

Oswald clearly thought his discharge being downgraded was unjustified - he called it 'illegal' and 'morally wrong' and he wanted it sorted and yet he (pretty much) 'demanded' that they came to him to sort it out rather than him going to them. That seems odd to me. lol

Regards

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Posted (edited)

20 minutes ago, Alistair Briggs said:

In a previous thread I mentioned that I felt 'pity' for Lee Harvey Oswald. His life from childhood upwards was not great as this timeline attests.What chance in life did he really have.

... 

Oswald clearly thought his discharge being downgraded was unjustified - he called it 'illegal' and 'morally wrong' and he wanted it sorted and yet he (pretty much) 'demanded' that they came to him to sort it out rather than him going to them. That seems odd to me. lol

Regards

Alistair,

Anybody who really wants to see how pitiful LHO's life really was, only needs to read the WC testimony of his immediate family about his childhood -- which was confirmed by his extended family.

There was a period in his life, however, from about age 8 to age 12, when young Oswald lived like a rich kid.  His mother married a well-to-do engineer, who was so successful the Texas Energy Company sent him traveling year-around, staying in fine hotels.   Marguerite's two older boys were sent to military school, while young Lee would go off with his mother and his step-father all over the USA, from New York to San Francisco -- staying at resorts and fine places -- for years. 

I think this turned young Lee's head. 

When his mother divorced this man, however, Lee's life was never the same.   His mother returned to a life of poverty.   Lee slapped his mother once.  Lee threatened his sister-in-law once with a knife.   Lee became seriously introverted at that point -- demanding; and with an attitude.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited by Paul Trejo

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2 minutes ago, Paul Trejo said:

Anybody who really wants to see how pitiful LHO's life was only has to read the WC testimony of his immediate family about his childhood -- which is confirmed by his extended family.

Yep. A lot of stuff out there to show how pitiful it was...

3 minutes ago, Paul Trejo said:

There was a period in his life, however, from about age 8 to age 12, when young Oswald lived like a rich kid.  His mother married a well-to-do engineer, who was so successful the Texas Energy Company sent him traveling year-around, staying in fine hotels.   Marguerites two older boys were sent to military school, while young Lee would go off with his mother and his step-father all over the USA, from New York to San Francisco -- staying at resorts and fine places -- for years. 

I think this turned young Lee's head.  When his mother divorced this man, Lee's life was never the same.   His mother returned to a life of poverty.   Lee slapped his mother once.  Lee threatened his sister-in-law once with a knife.   Lee became seriously introverted at that point -- demanding; with an attitude.

Just as a point of correction it wasn't between the ages of 8 and 12, it was more like between the ages of 4 and 8...

Lee Harvey Oswald was born Oct 18th 1939.

His Mother first met Edwin A. Ekdahl in July 1943, and they married on May 7th 1945. They separated in the Summer of 1946 but reunited in January 1947. In the Summer of 1947 Marguerite finds out that Ekdahl is having an affair but they 'continue' on until January 1948 when she kicks him out the house. In March 1948 Ekdahl files for divorce which is finalised on the 24th of June.

But yeah, his life was never the same...

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Posted (edited)

33 minutes ago, Alistair Briggs said:

Yep. A lot of stuff out there to show how pitiful it was...

Just as a point of correction it wasn't between the ages of 8 and 12, it was more like between the ages of 4 and 8...

Lee Harvey Oswald was born Oct 18th 1939.

His Mother first met Edwin A. Ekdahl in July 1943, and they married on May 7th 1945. They separated in the Summer of 1946 but reunited in January 1947. In the Summer of 1947 Marguerite finds out that Ekdahl is having an affair but they 'continue' on until January 1948 when she kicks him out the house. In March 1948 Ekdahl files for divorce which is finalised on the 24th of June.

But yeah, his life was never the same...

OK, but it wasn't 4 and 8, it was 6 and 9.    She married Ekdahl in 1945 (Lee was 6) and divorced Ekdahl in 1948 (Lee was 9).

So, it was a couple of years of living high on the hog for young Lee.

--Paul

Edited by Paul Trejo

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Alistair -Paul

The subject matter is very interesting. I have something to offer that may shed some light on the reason of Oswald to Russia.

I have a friend who was born in Russia whose family immigrated the United States when he was a small child. He told me he learned Russian from his parents but he wasn´t fluent. Anyway one day we got unto the subject of Oswald.

He said that while he was in the army stationed in California he was recruited for a voluntary mission in Russia. Only soldiers who spoke russian were recruited. He said they were to be dropped into the russian countryside and make note of all bridges, factories and other economic assets in the area where he was dropped. The US army had very little intelligence on Russia at the time, the late 50s, so this program would bring the US up to date. He thought about joining the operation but decided not to join.  

He told me he thought Oswald was trained at the same army school in California to do similiar recon.

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17 hours ago, Paul Trejo said:

OK, but it wasn't 4 and 8, it was 6 and 9.    She married Ekdahl in 1945 (Lee was 6) and divorced Ekdahl in 1948 (Lee was 9).

It was 4 and 8...

Oswald was born October 18th 1939.

His Mother first met Edwin A. Ekdahl in July 1943... Lee would have been 3 years 9 months old.
(At the time Lee was away at the Bethlehem Children's Home, his Mother withdraw him from it in January 1944 as she and Ekdahl move to a new home (Victor Street) - a reasonable inference then is that it would be this time that Lee first met Ekdahl and he would have been 4 years and 3 months old)
They married on May 7th 1945... Lee would have been 5 years and 7 months old.
They separated in September (?) of 1946... Lee would have been 6 years and 11 months old.
They reunited in January 1947... Lee would have been 7 years and 3 months old.
In the Summer of 1947 Marguerite finds out that Ekdahl is having an affair but they 'continue' on until January 1948 when she kicks him out the house... Lee would have been 8 years and 3 months old.
In March 1948 Ekdahl files for divorce... Lee would have been 8 years and 5 months old.
The divorce is finalised on the 24th of June... Lee would have been 8 years and 8 months old.

 

 

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17 hours ago, George Sawtelle said:

Alistair -Paul

The subject matter is very interesting. I have something to offer that may shed some light on the reason of Oswald to Russia.

I have a friend who was born in Russia whose family immigrated the United States when he was a small child. He told me he learned Russian from his parents but he wasn´t fluent. Anyway one day we got unto the subject of Oswald.

He said that while he was in the army stationed in California he was recruited for a voluntary mission in Russia. Only soldiers who spoke russian were recruited. He said they were to be dropped into the russian countryside and make note of all bridges, factories and other economic assets in the area where he was dropped. The US army had very little intelligence on Russia at the time, the late 50s, so this program would bring the US up to date. He thought about joining the operation but decided not to join.  

He told me he thought Oswald was trained at the same army school in California to do similiar recon.

That is very interesting indeed George, thank you. :)

On a related topic, there is the 50 odd page manuscript that Oswald wrote on his time in Russia...

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1133#relPageId=309&tab=page

I will try and dig up more info about it as soon as I can. ;)

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55 minutes ago, Alistair Briggs said:

It was 4 and 8...

Oswald was born October 18th 1939.

His Mother first met Edwin A. Ekdahl in July 1943... Lee would have been 3 years 9 months old.
(At the time Lee was away at the Bethlehem Children's Home, his Mother withdraw him from it in January 1944 as she and Ekdahl move to a new home (Victor Street) - a reasonable inference then is that it would be this time that Lee first met Ekdahl and he would have been 4 years and 3 months old)
They married on May 7th 1945... Lee would have been 5 years and 7 months old.
They separated in September (?) of 1946... Lee would have been 6 years and 11 months old.
They reunited in January 1947... Lee would have been 7 years and 3 months old.
In the Summer of 1947 Marguerite finds out that Ekdahl is having an affair but they 'continue' on until January 1948 when she kicks him out the house... Lee would have been 8 years and 3 months old.
In March 1948 Ekdahl files for divorce... Lee would have been 8 years and 5 months old.
The divorce is finalised on the 24th of June... Lee would have been 8 years and 8 months old.

It wasn't 4 and 8 -- because I'm not talking about the time that Lee saw Ekdahl with his eyes, but the time that Lee went traveling with his mother and Ekdahl in find hotels and resorts from coast to coast.

It was more likely ages 5 to 7.

Marguerite's testimony is the evidence.   She would not travel with the man until after she married him.  So, if they started traveling the day she married Ekdahl, then Lee was 5 years and 7 months, as you noted.

Marguerite would not travel with Ekdahl after she found out he had an affair.  She worked out details to sue for divorce after that -- which took her many months.  On that basis, she stopped traveling with Ekdahl in September 1947, when Oswald was not yet 8 -- or, 7 years and 11 months.

So, Lee had a couple of years of living high on the hog with stepfather Ekdahl.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

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56 minutes ago, Alistair Briggs said:

...There is the 50 odd page manuscript that Oswald wrote on his time in Russia...

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1133#relPageId=309&tab=page

I will try and dig up more info about it as soon as I can. ;)

Alistair,

The manuscript that LHO wrote on his time in Russia shows much about LHO.    First, perhaps, it shows he was a mediocre writer, and had no chance of fame and fortune as a writer, if that's what he was hoping (and I suspect that was on his mind).

Secondly, it shows he could hardly spell.   He was handicapped as a high-school dropout.

Thirdly, it shows that if he did want to be a professional writer, his hero was probably Ernest Hemmingway, who also supported the Spanish Revolution, and went to live in Cuba for many years.  Hemmingway's travel logs make writing look easy -- but that was one of his greatest skills.  

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

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20 minutes ago, Paul Trejo said:

It wasn't 4 and 8 -- because I'm not talking about the time that Lee saw Ekdahl with his eyes, but the time that Lee went traveling with his mother and Ekdahl in find hotels and resorts from coast to coast.

It was more likely ages 5 to 7.

Marguerite's testimony is the evidence.   She would not travel with the man until after she married him.  So, if they started traveling the day she married Ekdahl, then Lee was 5 years and 7 months, as you noted.

Marguerite would not travel with Ekdahl after she found out he had an affair.  She worked out details to sue for divorce after that -- which took her many months.  On that basis, she stopped traveling with Ekdahl in September 1947, when Oswald was not yet 8 -- or, 7 years and 11 months.

So, Lee had a couple of years of living high on the hog with stepfather Ekdahl.

I'm happy with that... between the ages of 5 and 7 was the time that he lived 'high on the hog'. :)

17 minutes ago, Paul Trejo said:

The manuscript that LHO wrote on his time in Russia shows much about LHO.    First, perhaps, it shows he was a mediocre writer, and had no chance of fame and fortune as a writer, if that's what he was hoping (and I suspect that was on his mind).

Secondly, it shows he could hardly spell.   He was handicapped as a high-school dropout.

Thirdly, it shows that if he did want to be a professional writer, his hero was probably Ernest Hemmingway, who also supported the Spanish Revolution, and went to live in Cuba for many years.  Hemmingway's travel logs make writing look easy -- but that was one of his greatest skills. 

About the spelling and the 'mediocrity' of Oswald's writing, that's one of the things Mailer discusses in his book. It's quite interesting because he posits that if it was "cleansed of the grime of his mis-spellings and poor punctuation" that it would reveal that underneath it Oswald was intelligent. Mailer also makes mention to the letter written by Dr Howard P Rome of the Mayo Clinic;

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1142#relPageId=848&tab=page

It makes interesting reading indeed.

He was certainly well read. The list of books he borrowed from the library in New Orleans is quite impressive. It's a shame that no such records exist for the ones he borrowed from the library in Dallas - they didn't keep such records - the only one that is known about being borrowed in Dallas (because it wasn't returned) is The Shark and the Sardines by (former Guatemala president) Juan Jose Arevalo.

He was certainly familiar with Hemmingway of course - he mentions him in the letter he wrote to John Connally.

Regards

 

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