Did Gloria Calvery almost catch up to Marion Baker?

[Robert Prudhomme]

From the Warren Commission testimony of Joe Molina:

"Mr. BALL. Did you see anything after that?

Mr. MOLINA. Well, I heard the shots.
Mr. BALL. Where--what was the source of the sound?
Mr. MOLINA. Sort of like it reverberated, sort of kind of came from the west side; that was the first impression I got. Of course, the first shot was fired then there was an interval between the first and second longer than the second and third.
Mr. BALL. What did you do after that?
Mr. MOLINA. Well, I just stood there, everybody was running and I didn't know what to do actually, because what could I do. I was just shocked.
Mr. BALL. Did anybody say anything?
Mr. MOLINA. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Yes, this fellow come to me---Mr. Williams said, somebody said, somebody was shooting at the President, somebody, I don't know who it was. There was some shooting, you know, and this fellow said "What can anybody gain

371

by that"; he just shook his head and I just stood there and shook my head. I didn't want to .think what was happening, you know, but I wanted to find out so I went down to where the grassy slope is, you know, and I was trying to gather pieces of conversation of the people that had been close by there and somebody said "Well, the President has been shot and I think they shot somebody else", something like that.
Mr. BALL. Did you see Mr. Truly go into the building?
Mr. MOLINA. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Where were you when you saw him go into the building?
Mr. MOLINA. I was right in the entrance.
Mr. BALL. Did you see a police officer with him?
Mr. MOLINA. I didn't see a police officer. I don't recall seeing a police officer but I did see him go inside.
Mr. BALL. Did you see a white-helmeted police officer any time there in the entrance?
Mr. MOLINA. Well, of course, there might have been one after they secured the building, you know.
Mr. BALL. No, I mean when Truly went in; did you see Truly actually go into the building?
Mr. MOLINA. I saw him go in.
Mr. BALL. Where were you standing?
Mr. MOLINA. Right at the front door; right at the front door.
Mr. BALL. Outside the front door?
Mr. MOLINA. Yes, outside the front door I was standing; the door was right behind me.
Mr. BALL. Were you standing on the steps?
Mr. MOLINA. Yes, on the uppermost step.
Mr. BALL. You actually saw Truly go
Mr. MOLINA. Yeah.

Mr. BALL. You were still standing there?

Mr. MOLINA. Yes.

Mr. BALL. How long was it after you heard the shots?
Mr. MOLINA. Oh, I would venture to say maybe 20 or 30 seconds afterwards.
Mr. BALL. Had somebody come up and said the President was shot before
you saw Truly go in?
Mr. MOLINA. No.
Mr. BALL. Do you know a girl named Gloria Calvary?
Mr. MOLINA. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Did Gloria come up?
Ms.. MOLINA. Yes, she came. I was in the lobby standing there and she came in with this other girl.
Mr. BALL. What did she say?
Mr. MOLINA. She said "Oh, my God, Joe, he's been shot." They were both horrified. I said "Are you sure he was shot?" She said "Oh, Joe ,I'm sure. I saw his hair fly up and I'm sure he was shot" something to that extent."

Joe Molina was on the uppermost step, right outside the entrance, and saw Truly enter the TSBD 20-30 seconds after the last shot, but NOT a helmeted police officer. No one had arrived at the steps with the news of the assassination before he saw Truly go into the building.

Molina went down to the "grassy slope" to see what had happened, but does not say how long he stayed there. He then says he saw Gloria Calvery while he was inside the lobby, and that she came in with another girl., and that she told him JFK had been shot.

He does NOT:

1. Tell us if he met Calvery before or after he went down to the grassy slope.

2. Tell us if the woman with Calvery had accompanied her from down by the Stemmons sign or had met up with Calvery back at the steps.

3. Tell us how long he spent at the grassy slope, and when he re-entered the TSBD.

4. Tell us how long after the shots he spoke with Gloria Calvery.

Edited September 1, 2015 by Robert Prudhomme

[Thomas Graves]

Thomas

How would anything regarding Gloria Calvery possibly make Joe Molina a xxxx (prevaricator)?

Robert,

Didn't Joe say Calvery came up to him on the steps, or just inside the TSBD, about 20 seconds after the last shot?

I'm saying that maybe Calvery ran to the corner of Elm and Houston (and Baker followed her there), and if so, she couldn't have run up the steps and encountered Molina like that.

I'm not saying that it's absolutely certain that she did run to the corner of Elm and Houston, but if she did, that would have been a good reason for Baker to run there, too, right? And they could have talked there for a couple of minutes.

Where do you think Baker ran to, if not up the steps and into the TSBD?

Why don't you lay out the whole scenario for us, Robert?

Please?

Thanks,

--Tommy

Edit: I see my mistake now. I conflated what Linda wrote at FindaGrave with what you said in response to that on this thread when you wrote "xxxxxxxxxxx not xxxxxxxxxxxx," and I'm missed the "not." My bad.

edited and bumped

BTW, Here's a 1960 photo of journalist Aurelia Alonzo, with whom Helen Woodward said she was standing (along with two other female journalists), during the motorcade, (and most importantly for us, right next to Chris Davidson's "Gloria Calvery" in the Z-film).

http://digital.library.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth61030/m1/95/

Chris' "Calvery" is standing between "A.J. Millican" and "Aurelia Alonzo," below:

Edited September 1, 2015 by Thomas Graves

[Robert Prudhomme]

It is unfortunate that Ball did not obtain a few more details from Molina. While Molina makes it very clear he was outside on the uppermost step when Truly (but NOT Baker) entered the TSBD 20-30 seconds after the last shot, the same cannot be said about Molina's encounter with Gloria Calvery. He only tells us that she came into the building after he had gone back into the lobby, and that she was with another woman.

Most revealing is his admission that he went down to the "grassy slope" to obtain information about the assassination. If we assume this occurred prior to him re-entering the TSBD and loitering in the lobby, this gives Calvery a great deal more time to do whatever she pleases outside the TSBD entrance.

The woman in the Zapruder still looks very similar to the "Calvery" seen running behind Baker.

While this mystery woman can be seen in the Zapruder still, I can only find one woman between Mary Woodward and the man in the hard hat, in the Altgens 6 photo.

Is that our "Calvery" in the glasses, or is that Aurelia Alonzo? Where did "Calvery" go?

Edited September 1, 2015 by Robert Prudhomme

[Thomas Graves]

It is unfortunate that Ball did not obtain a few more details from Molina. While Molina makes it very clear he was outside on the uppermost step when Truly (but NOT Baker) entered the TSBD 20-30 seconds after the last shot, the same cannot be said about Molina's encounter with Gloria Calvery. He only tells us that she came into the building after he had gone back into the lobby, and that she was with another woman.

Most revealing is his admission that he went down to the "grassy slope" to obtain information about the assassination. If we assume this occurred prior to him re-entering the TSBD and loitering in the lobby, this gives Calvery a great deal more time to do whatever she pleases outside the TSBD entrance.

The woman in the Zapruder still looks very similar to the "Calvery" seen running behind Baker.

While this mystery woman can be seen in the Zapruder still, I can only find one woman between Mary Woodward and the man in the hard hat, in the Altgens 6 photo.

Is that our "Calvery" in the glasses, or is that Aurelia Alonzo? Where did "Calvery" go?

Or is it Karan Hicks or Carol Reed? Beats the heck out of me, Robert.

--Tommy

Edit:

If you look very closely at the face of the girl with the glasses, you can just barely make out the outline of another woman's face behind hers, perfectly aligned with her face, and a little bit of the other woman's hair, as well.

Edited September 1, 2015 by Thomas Graves

[Robert Prudhomme]

What seems strange is that in the Zapruder still of z151, there are two women standing between Mary Woodward and Hardhat Man. In the Altgens 6 photo, not only is there only one woman between them, there does not appear to have been enough space for another woman.

Hardhat Man, who was looking out onto Elm St. right up until he goes out of sight at z161, can be seen peering intently back toward the intersection in Altgens 6. Has he heard the same thing making the two SS agents look back in the same direction?

[Robert Prudhomme]

You can see another face behind the woman in the glasses?

[Thomas Graves]

(Please disregard somebody else's confusing of Oswald for Lovelady in this extreme blowup of Altgens 6.)

Blow it up (click on it) and look very closely at the girl wearing glasses next to A. J. Millican. Notice how her cheek seems to be all puffed out way past her glasses? It's not her cheek, but part of the face of the woman standing behind her, between her and Millican. You can see some of the other woman's hair, too, and her forehead and right eye (as we look at her), as well.

https://willyloman.files.wordpress.com/2013/11/altgens-6-ue-large-best-proc1.jpg

--Tommy

Edited September 1, 2015 by Thomas Graves

[Thomas Graves]

Here's a blowup of Willis #5 (from a French website) which shows the same white-bloused woman next to A. J. Millican. Looks to me like she could be Gloria Calvery. Interesting to see she was wearing a red (plaid?) dress.

"Running Woman's" arms aren't swinging in Couch / Darnell, probably because she's clutching her purse to her chest. Note that the girl wearing the red dress in Willis #5 appears to have her purse tucked under her left elbow.

Edited September 1, 2015 by Thomas Graves

[Thomas Graves]

In previous threads, I believe serious doubt has been cast upon the identification of a woman loitering down near the Stemmons sign post-assassination as being Gloria Calvery.

Linda turned up an interesting piece from FindaGrave concerning Gloria Calvery:

Immediately following the assassination she ran back to the TSBD, following about 10-15 feet behind the sprinting DPD Officer, Marrion Baker, and they went up the front steps and into the building, as was partially captured on the Cook-Darnell Film and recounted in eyewitness testimony:

http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i286/niteprowler147/bl3_zps34f39e84.gif

In his Warren Commission testimony, a TSBD co-worker, Joe Molina, who had been positioned on the landing of the steps during the motorcade, stated he encountered a "horrified" Gloria Calvery in the entryway ~20-30 seconds after the final shot and she explained that she had seen the fatal head shot:

Mr. BALL. Do you know a girl named Gloria Calvary[sic]?

Mr. MOLINA. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Did Gloria come up?

Ms.. MOLINA. Yes, she came. I was in the lobby standing there and she came in with this other girl.

Mr. BALL. What did she say?

Mr. MOLINA. She said "Oh, my God, Joe, he's been shot." They were both horrified. I said "Are you sure he was shot?" She said "Oh, Joe ,I'm sure. I saw his hair fly up and I'm sure he was shot" something to that extent.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It would be interesting to know who wrote this piece, and whether or not that person has taken liberties with the truth.

In the first paragraph, I would like to know whose eyewitness testimony placed Ms. Calvery 10-15 feet behind Baker as they approached the steps.

As to the second paragraph, Joe Molina's WC testimony does not state that Ms. Calvery was in the entryway 20-30 seconds after the final shot.

However, how far was it for Ms. Calvery to run up the Elm St. sidewalk to the steps? Could she have done it in just a few seconds longer than it took Baker to race his motorcycle to the sidewalk, park it and run up to the TSBD entrance?

Robert, I think they've taken liberties but not diabolic ones.

I suppose they may want it to be Calvery running into the building because it matches certain testimony and it's just nice to think at least one person said they saw something and oh look, there it is on film.

Like Linda said elsewhere if it's Calvery she would have to have lost quite a bit of weight(a few months after getting hitched).

No impossible but pretty unlikely.

Also remember the motorcade was late, so those people could have been standing there for twenty minutes.

Calvery may have stood on that spot with Hicks but just got bored and wandered off.

IMHO Chris has the right idea to find the running girl first and for me, if she's not near that Chism group which she doesn't seem to be, then it's more likely she's running from something that happened after the headshot or simply running back to grab lunch.

On one of your recent points.

I myself have no problem with statements not matching, or matching the films, quite the opposite, it's exactly what I've come to expect and why would they match anyway? Who says they are supposed to Robert?

Do you think it's possible that the overwhelming majority outside and opposite the TSBD completely ignored the sounds they later would claim where clearly gunshots? Even Baker himself?

If that is possible and after looking at these better frames of Wiegman I believe it is highly probable, then "fifty years of BS" is putting it very mildly indeed.

I do get your point about Baker, it's your opinion and I understand it but I don't believe he needs support for running into the building, he has Truly (and Darnell's footage to an extent) and quite a detailed account of what he saw after he turned onto Elm which is what I believe led him to investigate the building, not the birds, or the sounds but what he saw on the street in front of him, which is mostly verifiable on film.

Marking him as a good cop and by no means a slow one.

This is I think, the woman Chris [Davidson] pointed to in Z, still in position next to [A.J. Millican] and lamp post [...]

Clive,

Edit: I think you're right, so I guess it means Chris' "Gloria Calvery" (in the white blouse and long dress, above), couldn't be the same person as "Running Woman." The timing is all off. Darn. Back to square one.

[...]

Robert,

For What It's Worth -- I want "Running Woman" to be a lithe Gloria Calvery (having lost some weight since her marriage), wherever she was standing during the motorcade. I want the two guys who are in close proximity to each other as they are walking / running down Elm Street to be Shelley and Lovelady (and I believe they are), proving that they prevaricated (in order to screw up Vicki Adams' story) when they said they stayed on the steps, twiddling their thumbs, for three minutes. I want the fast-running Calvery to yell out, "The President's been shot!" as she runs past Shelley and Lovelady, not far from the "island" on Elm Street Extension. I want Calvery to continue running down to the corner of Elm and Houston and for Baker to follow her down there and talk with her for five or ten minutes, in order to accommodate any theories that we might come up with regarding Oswald and the second floor lunchroom "encounter," etc. But that would prove Joe Molina to be a prevaricator then, wouldn't it. I forgot about that...

I want the three women, standing by the Stemmons Freeway sign on Elm Street and previously "identified" as Calvery, Hicks, and Reed, to be finally determined to be other people entirely.

Seriously. Not being ironic or sarcastic here,

--Tommy

[Thomas Graves]

In previous threads, I believe serious doubt has been cast upon the identification of a woman loitering down near the Stemmons sign post-assassination as being Gloria Calvery.

Linda turned up an interesting piece from FindaGrave concerning Gloria Calvery:

Immediately following the assassination she ran back to the TSBD, following about 10-15 feet behind the sprinting DPD Officer, Marrion Baker, and they went up the front steps and into the building, as was partially captured on the Cook-Darnell Film and recounted in eyewitness testimony:

http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i286/niteprowler147/bl3_zps34f39e84.gif

In his Warren Commission testimony, a TSBD co-worker, Joe Molina, who had been positioned on the landing of the steps during the motorcade, stated he encountered a "horrified" Gloria Calvery in the entryway ~20-30 seconds after the final shot and she explained that she had seen the fatal head shot:

Mr. BALL. Do you know a girl named Gloria Calvary[sic]?

Mr. MOLINA. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Did Gloria come up?

Ms.. MOLINA. Yes, she came. I was in the lobby standing there and she came in with this other girl.

Mr. BALL. What did she say?

Mr. MOLINA. She said "Oh, my God, Joe, he's been shot." They were both horrified. I said "Are you sure he was shot?" She said "Oh, Joe ,I'm sure. I saw his hair fly up and I'm sure he was shot" something to that extent.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It would be interesting to know who wrote this piece, and whether or not that person has taken liberties with the truth.

In the first paragraph, I would like to know whose eyewitness testimony placed Ms. Calvery 10-15 feet behind Baker as they approached the steps.

As to the second paragraph, Joe Molina's WC testimony does not state that Ms. Calvery was in the entryway 20-30 seconds after the final shot.

However, how far was it for Ms. Calvery to run up the Elm St. sidewalk to the steps? Could she have done it in just a few seconds longer than it took Baker to race his motorcycle to the sidewalk, park it and run up to the TSBD entrance?

Robert, I think they've taken liberties but not diabolic ones.

I suppose they may want it to be Calvery running into the building because it matches certain testimony and it's just nice to think at least one person said they saw something and oh look, there it is on film.

Like Linda said elsewhere if it's Calvery she would have to have lost quite a bit of weight(a few months after getting hitched).

No impossible but pretty unlikely.

Also remember the motorcade was late, so those people could have been standing there for twenty minutes.

Calvery may have stood on that spot with Hicks but just got bored and wandered off.

IMHO Chris has the right idea to find the running girl first and for me, if she's not near that Chism group which she doesn't seem to be, then it's more likely she's running from something that happened after the headshot or simply running back to grab lunch.

On one of your recent points.

I myself have no problem with statements not matching, or matching the films, quite the opposite, it's exactly what I've come to expect and why would they match anyway? Who says they are supposed to Robert?

Do you think it's possible that the overwhelming majority outside and opposite the TSBD completely ignored the sounds they later would claim where clearly gunshots? Even Baker himself?

If that is possible and after looking at these better frames of Wiegman I believe it is highly probable, then "fifty years of BS" is putting it very mildly indeed.

I do get your point about Baker, it's your opinion and I understand it but I don't believe he needs support for running into the building, he has Truly (and Darnell's footage to an extent) and quite a detailed account of what he saw after he turned onto Elm which is what I believe led him to investigate the building, not the birds, or the sounds but what he saw on the street in front of him, which is mostly verifiable on film.

Marking him as a good cop and by no means a slow one.

This is I think, the woman Chris [Davidson] pointed to in Z, still in position next to [A.J. Millican] and lamp post [...]

Clive,

Edit: I think you're right, so I guess it means Chris' "Gloria Calvery" (in the white blouse and long dress, above), couldn't be the same person as "Running Woman." The timing is all off. Darn. Back to square one. Nice catch, btw.

[...]

Robert,

For What It's Worth -- I want "Running Woman" to be a lithe Gloria Calvery (having lost some weight since her marriage), wherever she was standing during the motorcade. I want the two guys who are in close proximity to each other as they are walking / running down Elm Street to be Shelley and Lovelady (and I believe they are), proving that they prevaricated (in order to screw up Vicki Adams' story) when they said they stayed on the steps, twiddling their thumbs, for three minutes. I want the fast-running Calvery to yell out, "The President's been shot!" as she runs past Shelley and Lovelady, not far from the "island" on Elm Street Extension. I want Calvery to continue running down to the corner of Elm and Houston and for Baker to follow her down there and talk with her for five or ten minutes, in order to accommodate any theories that we might come up with regarding Oswald and the second floor lunchroom "encounter," etc. But that would prove Joe Molina to be a prevaricator then, wouldn't it. I forgot about that...

I want the three women, standing by the Stemmons Freeway sign on Elm Street and previously "identified" as Calvery, Hicks, and Reed, to be finally determined to be other people entirely.

Seriously. Not being ironic or sarcastic here,

--Tommy

edited and bumped

Edited September 1, 2015 by Thomas Graves

[Robert Prudhomme]

(Please disregard somebody else's confusing of Oswald for Lovelady in this extreme blowup of Altgens 6.)

Blow it up (click on it) and look very closely at the girl wearing glasses next to A. J. Millican. Notice how her cheek seems to be all puffed out way past her glasses? It's not her cheek, but part of the face of the woman standing behind her, between her and Millican. You can see some of the other woman's hair, too, and her forehead and right eye (as we look at her), as well.

https://willyloman.files.wordpress.com/2013/11/altgens-6-ue-large-best-proc1.jpg

--Tommy

Okay, I can see it now; just barely visible behind the other woman.

[Robert Prudhomme]

Good find, Thomas! That woman looks more like Gloria Calvery than any of the candidates so far. Too bad all of the other photos aren't in colour; that red plaid skirt would be easy to spot.

When I look at this photo and the Altgens photo, I'm reminded of just how small a place Dealey Plaza is, and how quickly a running person could have made it from the lamp post up to the TSBD steps.

I don't think we can conclusively say the figure above is Gloria Calvery yet. Mary Woodward was wearing a light coloured (white?) blouse, as well, and this could be her we see here. I thought she was wearing a "Stars and Stripes" theme skirt at first, until I realized I was looking at the flag on the front corner of the limo in the Altgens 6 photo.

Any way you could enlarge the Altgens 6 photo again to get a closer look at Woodwards' skirt?

Edited September 1, 2015 by Robert Prudhomme

[Robert Prudhomme]

Slightly off topic but. I was looking at your blowup of the Altgens 6 photo again

https://willyloman.f...-best-proc1.jpg and I can't get over how Hardhat Man is looking back up the street at something. I can also see now that three of the black women on the sidewalk are looking in the same direction, as well as the two SS agents on the side of the follow up car.

[Robert Prudhomme]

I've taken a look at Mary Woodward, from the back side, in the earlier frames of the Zapruder film, and it appears she is wearing a light grey coloured skirt.

So, there is a distinct possibility the woman seen running in Darnell/Couch is not Gloria Calvery, and she might have lingered further down the street for some time.

Where does this leave us?

[Robert Prudhomme]

I found out who wrote Gloria Calvery's memorial at the Find a Grave website.

http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GSln=calvery&GSfn=gloria+&GSbyrel=all&GSdyrel=all&GSob=n&GRid=149407954&df=all&

Look near the bottom where it says "Created by:"