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Crack in the windshield


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#1 Robin Unger

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Posted 03 June 2007 - 01:19 PM

I see the same shape crack in this image, as i see in Altgens 7


Credit: Bill Miller for original image.






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Posted Image

#2 Robin Unger

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Posted 03 June 2007 - 01:22 PM

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#3 Miles Scull

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Posted 03 June 2007 - 05:26 PM

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Thx, Robin.

Is this the first photographic evidence, in the sequential photo chronology, of the existence of this crack? Or is it seen in an earlier photo?

Edited by Miles Scull, 03 June 2007 - 06:55 PM.


#4 Nick Bartetzko

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Posted 04 June 2007 - 07:31 AM

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Any idea which officer is in front of the limo? Ellis or Freeman?

#5 John Dolva

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Posted 04 June 2007 - 09:46 AM

There appears to be definitely three, possibly four, separates points of damage.

1. the right sun visors edge (possible) appears torn

2. the windshield frame has a deep dent

3. the right sun visor mount area is bent down

4. the crack in the windshield

When one looks at the Z film and the other photos prior to the shooting the right visor is pointing more upwards. IOW at the time of the sunvisor, the frame, and the visor mount damage occured one can theorise a shot from over the handle bar that nicked the visor knocking it even more upright, then hit the windhiesld frame and ricoched to hit the visor mount.

If this bullet or bullet fragment came from a hit on Kennedy then it seems to imply a shallow trajectory as it would have to pass under the handlebar. If it came from over the handle bar it could not have been from a hit on Kennedy.

If all four damages are from the same shot then it was a shot that missed and is not accounted for. Also it could account for a front throat hit.

(image: dam01)
[attachment=11257:dam01.jpg]
_________________


according to this image there appears to have been a fold-down foot rest which corresponds with a hand grip on the inside channel next to where Kennedy sat. Could this have been where Emory intended to stand?

(image: limo01)
[attachment=11258:lim01.jpg]

Edited by John Dolva, 04 June 2007 - 09:50 AM.


#6 Robin Unger

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Posted 04 June 2007 - 01:05 PM

Hi John

I agree the DENT in the chrome strip can be seen clearly in the parkland photo.



The limo you showed appears to be a different car, in jfk's limo the back seat was almost flush with the back of the car , not protruding up in the air.

Edited by Robin Unger, 04 June 2007 - 01:09 PM.


#7 Robin Unger

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Posted 04 June 2007 - 01:09 PM

quote:

Thx, Robin.

Is this the first photographic evidence, in the sequential photo chronology, of the existence of this crack? Or is it seen in an earlier photo?



Hi Miles.

The only time i have ever seen the crack in the glass before the limo left parkland, was in the Parkland photo above , and in Altgens 7

#8 John Dolva

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Posted 04 June 2007 - 01:12 PM

Hi John, I agree the DENT in the chrome strip can be seen claerly in the parkland photo.
The limo you showed appears to be a different car, in jfk's limo the back seat was almost flush with the back of the car , not protruding up in the air.


Hi Robin, the rear seat was built to be moved up or down as suits the occasion.
Perhaps Pamela can say whether the fold down foot platforms were on Kennedy's Continental?

#9 Miles Scull

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Posted 04 June 2007 - 04:57 PM

There appears to be definitely three, possibly four, separates points of damage.

1. the right sun visors edge (possible) appears torn

2. the windshield frame has a deep dent

3. the right sun visor mount area is bent down

4. the crack in the windshield

When one looks at the Z film and the other photos prior to the shooting the right visor is pointing more upwards. IOW at the time of the sunvisor, the frame, and the visor mount damage occured one can theorise a shot from over the handle bar that nicked the visor knocking it even more upright, then hit the windhiesld frame and ricoched to hit the visor mount.

If this bullet or bullet fragment came from a hit on Kennedy then it seems to imply a shallow trajectory as it would have to pass under the handlebar. If it came from over the handle bar it could not have been from a hit on Kennedy.

If all four damages are from the same shot then it was a shot that missed and is not accounted for. Also it could account for a front throat hit.
(image: dam01)
[attachment=11257:dam01.jpg]
_________________


according to this image there appears to have been a fold-down foot rest which corresponds with a hand grip on the inside channel next to where Kennedy sat. Could this have been where Emory intended to stand?

(image: limo01)
[attachment=11258:lim01.jpg]


Also it could account for a front throat hit.


Robin, John et al.,

Somewhat confused here. Here is a crop of Altgens 6 at Z-255:

Posted Image

Now, the windshield crack seems to be absent. Yet JFK is reacting to a throat hit (and possibly other trauma, but primarily to a throat hit). JFK is reacting to a throat hit as early as Z-224.

Therefore, the windshield crack occurs after the the throat hit & after Z-255.

Thus, the crack is not associated with the throat hit as causative.

Is this correct?

#10 Thomas Graves

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Posted 05 June 2007 - 02:47 AM

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_________________________

Robin,

Thanks for posting all these great photos!

At Parkland Hospital, both former Dallas Police Officer H.R. Freeman and Dallas Police Officer Stavis Ellis (who was in charge of the motorcade escort!) are reported to have witnessed a through-and-through hole in the windshield, and Ellis is reported to have actually put a pencil "in" the hole:

http://www.spartacus.../JFKweldonD.htm


I think I can see this hole (a darkish circular spot about the diameter of a standard pencil) in two of the photos you've posted-- the blowup of the blowup in post # 1 (just a smidgen to the right of center), and in the blowup of the upper photo in post #2 (at the very bottom at the overall "center," just to the left of the car's radio antenna....


--Thomas

P.S. Interesting to note that Ellis was emphatic that the bullet hole was on the driver's side of the windshield. The medical and photographic evidence seem to indicate that one of the fatal shots may very well have come from that direction....

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Edited by Thomas Graves, 05 June 2007 - 03:52 PM.


#11 Bernice Moore

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Posted 05 June 2007 - 04:06 AM

Hi John, I agree the DENT in the chrome strip can be seen claerly in the parkland photo.
The limo you showed appears to be a different car, in jfk's limo the back seat was almost flush with the back of the car , not protruding up in the air.


Hi Robin, the rear seat was built to be moved up or down as suits the occasion.
Perhaps Pamela can say whether the fold down foot platforms were on Kennedy's Continental?

***********

John you may be interested in these...The 100 X was delivered June 15/61..as seen with the SS on the side....but it went back to the "shop" for changes and updates....in Sept..something is niggling,
but will not say positively, that the fold down foot platforms were removed...at that time...below is Baughman with the back seat raised...

B...

Edited by Bernice Moore, 05 June 2007 - 04:07 AM.


#12 John Dolva

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Posted 05 June 2007 - 06:32 AM

Hi John, I agree the DENT in the chrome strip can be seen claerly in the parkland photo.
The limo you showed appears to be a different car, in jfk's limo the back seat was almost flush with the back of the car , not protruding up in the air.


Hi Robin, the rear seat was built to be moved up or down as suits the occasion.
Perhaps Pamela can say whether the fold down foot platforms were on Kennedy's Continental?

***********

John you may be interested in these...The 100 X was delivered June 15/61..as seen with the SS on the side....but it went back to the "shop" for changes and updates....in Sept..something is niggling,
but will not say positively, that the fold down foot platforms were removed...at that time...below is Baughman with the back seat raised...

B...


Bernice, yes, theank you. There AFAIK was a contionuous runningboard that was removed. Whether the little fold down steps replaqced that or not I don't know. The color photo there with the guy standing on what looks like one of the fold down steps, when is that from?


Miles, I agree that one can't see a hole or cracks in A6. There may be reasons for that, lighting directions etc, or there was no hole or crack at that time. One thing though is that there is an account of the cracks spreading beween then and till back at the airport as the Limo was being driven. ie, the initial damage was less than after the stressing caused by the limo being driven. At the same time the bullet or fragments could conceivably cause the dent and the bend in the central visor mount and then a fragment ricochet back to Kennedy and the hole/crack is from another shot. I don't know.

#13 Robin Unger

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Posted 05 June 2007 - 06:37 AM

Hi John, I agree the DENT in the chrome strip can be seen claerly in the parkland photo.
The limo you showed appears to be a different car, in jfk's limo the back seat was almost flush with the back of the car , not protruding up in the air.


Hi Robin, the rear seat was built to be moved up or down as suits the occasion.
Perhaps Pamela can say whether the fold down foot platforms were on Kennedy's Continental?




Thanks John.

If that is the case i was totally unaware that the seat raised and lowered.

Thanks.


It's a great pity the seat wasn't in the up position during the assassination, that would have complicated things for a shooter from the rear.

Edited by Robin Unger, 05 June 2007 - 06:49 AM.


#14 Robin Unger

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Posted 05 June 2007 - 06:44 AM

Thanks Bernice.

Great pics as always.




quote:

Question, Robin-- Why did you post the lower photo in post #2? I realize I'm probably overlooking something.... Is there any windshield or any other damage visible in that photo? Separate question for anyone to answer-- any idea as to why the Lincoln's trunk is open in the lower post #2 photo?



Miles i only posted the second pic as it shows the limo in higher resolution, it also gives us a good look at the woman still holding the boys hand.


I beleive the trunk is where they kept the covering for the conversion to hardtop, as can be seen in some of the Parkland photos.

Edited by Robin Unger, 05 June 2007 - 07:09 AM.


#15 Robin Unger

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Posted 05 June 2007 - 07:07 AM

Thanks Bernice.

Great pics as always.




quote:

Question, Robin-- Why did you post the lower photo in post #2? I realize I'm probably overlooking something.... Is there any windshield or any other damage visible in that photo? Separate question for anyone to answer-- any idea as to why the Lincoln's trunk is open in the lower post #2 photo?



Miles i only posted the second pic as it shows the limo in higher resolution, it also gives us a good lok at the woman still holding the boys hand.


I beleive the trunk is where they kept the folded up covering for the conversion to hardtop, as can be seen in some of the Parkland photos.




[attachment=11267:JFK052.jpg]

[attachment=11268:JFK054.jpg]




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