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Oswald Leaving TSBD?


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#811 William Kelly

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Posted 21 September 2013 - 12:21 AM

 

 


But WHO is doing all this? Who tried to transplant the encounter everyone acknowledges happening from where it happened anywhere else? 

 

Who is "they" who went with the only remaining option? 

 

But it doesn't allow for Oswald to be the sixth floor shooter. Who made up the part about Baker seeing Oswald through the window of the closed door? That's a fact that Truly said he was unaware of until days if not weeks later. Who made up the story of Baker seeing Oswald through the window of the closed door, but forgets to have Truly - ahead of Baker - seeing Oswald walk through the open door, as he would have had to if Oswald went through that door? 

 

If the devil is in the details, they can run the time it takes to get from place to place all they want, it always comes out the same - minute and a half, but they can't have Oswald go through that door if Truly didn't see him and Baker did see him on the other side of that door - through the window - so Oswald, as Holmes points out, must have got into that vestibule - via the other second door. And yes, Holmes said first floor, but I don't believe he was repeating what Oswald told Fritz accurately, and both Baker and Truly, once they recreated their waltz - agreed it was the second floor, and Oswald confirmed their recollections and recreations of the incident, which exonerate him. 

 

I believe Baker, he was a good, honest copper, and his detailed story rings true. 

 

And if someone told Baker and Truly what the script was, who were they, who are you talking about? Who was pulling the cover up strings, because whoever they were, they screwed up. 

 

BK  

http://jfkcountercou...an-at-tsbd.html

 

 

1. Who? FBI, chiefly (though the Baker affidavit was surely a DPD-led gambit).

 

2. Please show me how Baker and Truly's WC testimony rules out the possibility that Oswald was the sixth floor shooter.

 

3. Which of Baker's detailed stories rings most true for you? His 11/22 story or his WC story?

 

 

 

Sean, thanks for responding in kind, as I'm not trying to be contrary. 

 

I'm looking at FBI and DPD and wondering who in those orgs could have influence over this but can't put a finger on a name. 

 

I don't see much difference in Baker's statement and testimony, other than the mention of the fourth floor encounter with someone, which he later said was a reference to the second floor lunchroom encounter. 

 

Baker pretty much sticks to his story of seeing Oswald through the door window, and Truly did not see him, 

therefore Oswald must have been on the other side of the closed door and did not go through it, as he would have had to if he was the Sixth Floor sniper. 

 

As for the Second Floor encounter ruling out Oswald as Sixth Floor shooter: 

 

http://jfkcountercou...-oswald-is.html

 

http://jfkcountercou...wald-is_14.html

 

http://jfkcountercou...ption-part.html

 

http://jfkcountercou...med-guilty.html

 

Now none of this eleminates Oswald as Prayer Man, as that is a distinct possibility. 

 

BK 


Edited by William Kelly, 21 September 2013 - 12:23 AM.


#812 Thomas Graves

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Posted 21 September 2013 - 12:23 AM

 

 

 

Sean,

 

I wonder why Shelley would lie about it?  Or was it just a faulty memory?

 

--Tommy  :sun

 

 

What did he lie about?

 

 

Sean,

 

He said that he and Lovelady were on the "island" when they turned and saw  a police officer (Baker?) and Truly at the steps of the TSBD.

 

Mr. BALL - How did you happen to see Truly?
Mr. SHELLEY - We ran out on the island while some of the people that were out watching it from our building were walking back and we turned around and we saw an officer and Truly.
Mr. BALL - And Truly?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Did you see them go into the building?
MMr. SHELLEY - No; we didn't watch that long but they were at the first step like they were fixin' to go in.
Mr. BALL - Were they moving at the time, walking or running?
Mr. SHELLEY - Well, they were moving, yes.

 

 

--Tommy  :sun


Edited by Thomas Graves, 21 September 2013 - 12:29 AM.


#813 Sean Murphy

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Posted 21 September 2013 - 12:27 AM

 

 

Sean,

 

I wonder why Shelley would lie about being on the "island?" 

 

Was it just a faulty memory? 

 

--Tommy  :sun

 

 

He and Lovelady are just at the 'island'.

 

couchloveladyshelley7l8kuy.gif

 

In a second or two they will turn around and notice Baker and Truly at the TSBD front entrance.



#814 Thomas Graves

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Posted 21 September 2013 - 12:33 AM

 

 

 

Sean,

 

I wonder why Shelley would lie about being on the "island?" 

 

Was it just a faulty memory? 

 

--Tommy  :sun

 

 

He and Lovelady are just at the 'island'.

 

couchloveladyshelley7l8kuy.gif

 

In a second or two they will turn around and notice Baker and Truly at the TSBD front entrance.

 

 

Sean,

 

OK. 

 

In his WC testimony, Shelley said that they ran out "on" (onto?) the island, but in the clip it appears that he and Lovelady are walking down the middle of Elm Street Extension, towards the railway yard / parking lot. 

 

At the very end of the clip, it looks like Lovelady starts running in that direction, leaving Shelley behind.

 

Thanks,

--Tommy :sun

 

Edit:

 

I watched it frame-by-frame as my old computer was downloading the clip at a slowish wi-fi "hot spot,"  and I noticed that when the sun shines briefly on him a couple of times, one can see that the shorter, "Lovelady" figure has a white collar.  Which leads me to believe that this isn't Lovelady after all.


Edited by Thomas Graves, 21 September 2013 - 05:58 PM.


#815 Sean Murphy

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Posted 21 September 2013 - 12:54 AM



 


 

Sean, thanks for responding in kind, as I'm not trying to be contrary. 

 

I'm looking at FBI and DPD and wondering who in those orgs could have influence over this but can't put a finger on a name. 

 

I don't see much difference in Baker's statement and testimony, other than the mention of the fourth floor encounter with someone, which he later said was a reference to the second floor lunchroom encounter. 

 

Baker pretty much sticks to his story of seeing Oswald through the door window, and Truly did not see him, 

therefore Oswald must have been on the other side of the closed door and did not go through it, as he would have had to if he was the Sixth Floor sniper. 

 

As for the Second Floor encounter ruling out Oswald as Sixth Floor shooter: 

 

http://jfkcountercou...-oswald-is.html

 

http://jfkcountercou...wald-is_14.html

 

http://jfkcountercou...ption-part.html

 

http://jfkcountercou...med-guilty.html

 

Now none of this eleminates Oswald as Prayer Man, as that is a distinct possibility. 

 

BK 

 

 

 

No problem, Bill.

 

There's no mention of a "door window" in Baker's 11/22 affidavit story.

There's no mention of a door,

There's no mention of a room.

Instead we hear about a man Baker catches "walking away from the stairway" several floors up the building.

According to Marvin Johnson, who took the affidavit, Baker even talked about searching the man.

This is not the lunchroom story that Baker will tell the WC.

 

**

 

As for Baker & Truly's WC story exonerating Oswald, all a WC defender has to do is argue the following:

Oswald shoots JFK

Oswald comes down the stairs

Oswald on the second floor, hearing the noise of someone on the way up, hurries over to the second-floor landing door and goes through it

Oswald looks through the door window as Truly crosses the landing

Oswald is about to go back out onto the landing when he is surprised to see an officer hit the landing

Oswald spins around to head for the lunchroom

But the officer notices the movement.

 

The scenario I've just outlined is pure crap. But that doesn't matter. The lunchroom story makes it possible. 

Just tweak the timeline here and there, invent extra seconds for Truly and Baker en route to the incident, and hey presto you have all the make-believe ambiguity you need to keep the fable of Oswald's guilt alive.

 

That's what the second-floor lunchroom fiction achieves: it gets Oswald away from the front entrance.

 

**

 

The lunchroom incident doesn't eliminate Prayer Man?

Quite the reverse:

Prayer Man eliminates the lunchroom incident.

For it tells us where the real Baker-Oswald-Truly encounter happened:

front entrance.

This is what Darnell is telling us:

Look! Here's Baker, Truly and Oswald--in the frame together!

 

qC4OttM.jpg

 

No need to bustle Oswald upstairs for a phoney second encounter.



#816 Pat Speer

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Posted 21 September 2013 - 06:12 AM

 

 

 

Whoa, fellas, you're still way ahead of yourselves, IMO. BEFORE you can say Prayer Man is probably Oswald, IMO, you really need to go through the photographic record and identify everyone else on the steps. If you can't do that, then you need to accept the possibility that unidentified people were on the steps, and that, therefore, Prayer Man could be an unidentified person. In other words, almost anyone.

 

 

Where are these people in the photographs? And who were the other people around them?

 

Buell Wesley Frazier (11-22-63 affidavit for Dallas County, 24H209) “I was standing [etc]

 

Pat,

 

The location of every single TSBD employee (bar Oswald) has been established for the time of the assassination.

 

Of all the TSBD employees (bar Oswald) who turned up for work that day, the following place themselves on the front steps:

 

Avery Davis

Judy McCully

Ruth Dean

Madie Reese

Carl Jones

Roy Lewis

Joe Molina

Otis Williams

Pauline Sanders

Sarah Stanton

Bill Shelley

Billy Lovelady

Buell Wesley Frazier

 

It has already been safely established that none of the above can possibly be Prayer Man.

 

If you disagree, perhaps you could

a ) identify who in the above list you believe Prayer Man might be

and

b ) support that claim with evidence.

 

In the likely event that you cannot support any such claim with evidence, will it then be your argument that Prayer Man is at least as likely to be a non-TSBD employee as to be a TSBD employee?

 

 

In order to claim these people can not possibly be Prayer Man, you need to be able to identify each and every one of them in the films and photographs. But we can't do that with any authority because we don't know what most of these people looked like.

 

We can do a head count, however.  Thirteen TSBD employees claimed they were on the steps. So, how many people are on the steps in Wiegman? Or Altgens?

 

On quick glance, I count eight or nine. Which means three or four of these employees could be Prayer Man.

 

 

Okay, Pat, so you should have no trouble giving me the names of three or four employees from this list who could be Prayer Man:

 

Avery Davis

Judy McCully

Ruth Dean

Madie Reese

Carl Jones

Roy Lewis

Joe Molina

Otis Williams

Pauline Sanders

Sarah Stanton

Bill Shelley

Billy Lovelady

Buell Wesley Frazier

 

Actually let's make this easier, shall we?

Can you please give us even one name from the above list who, in your view, could be Prayer Man?

 

 

Extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence, Sean. YOU have moved beyond raising the question of Oswald's being Prayer Man, to claiming it's obvious. But it's only obvious to you (and perhaps a few others) because you have dismissed the possibility it could be ANYONE else, based upon the vague statements of people made days, weeks, and years after the shooting, that suggest (at least to you) that all the other people standing on the steps were standing somewhere else.

 

So, IF these vague statements are trustworthy and reliable enough to support your claim, then they also oughta be trustworthy and reliable enough for you to identify ALL the people standing on the steps in Altgens, Wiegman, and Darnell. This is something that needs to be done, IMO, before your claim Prayer Man (or Woman) was Oswald can be considered a reasonable possibility, let alone an obvious fact.

 

Let's start with Sarah Stanton. Where is she in the Altgens photo? Frazier indicates that she was standing by him in the aftermath of the shots. I think you've found him in Darnell. Where is she in that film? To his left? If so, where is she in Altgens? If you can do this--go through the people claiming to have been on the steps one by one and identify them in the films and photos--it seems probable you will still have a few left over.

 

If so, you would have to find photos of these people and compare them to Prayer Man before you could reasonably rule them out as Prayer Man.

 

It's a long road, but it might lead somewhere.


Edited by Pat Speer, 21 September 2013 - 06:14 AM.


#817 Sean Murphy

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Posted 21 September 2013 - 11:46 AM

 

Extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence, Sean. YOU have moved beyond raising the question of Oswald's being Prayer Man, to claiming it's obvious. But it's only obvious to you (and perhaps a few others) because you have dismissed the possibility it could be ANYONE else, based upon the vague statements of people made days, weeks, and years after the shooting, that suggest (at least to you) that all the other people standing on the steps were standing somewhere else.

 

So, IF these vague statements are trustworthy and reliable enough to support your claim, then they also oughta be trustworthy and reliable enough for you to identify ALL the people standing on the steps in Altgens, Wiegman, and Darnell. This is something that needs to be done, IMO, before your claim Prayer Man (or Woman) was Oswald can be considered a reasonable possibility, let alone an obvious fact.

 

Let's start with Sarah Stanton. Where is she in the Altgens photo? Frazier indicates that she was standing by him in the aftermath of the shots. I think you've found him in Darnell. Where is she in that film? To his left? If so, where is she in Altgens? If you can do this--go through the people claiming to have been on the steps one by one and identify them in the films and photos--it seems probable you will still have a few left over.

 

If so, you would have to find photos of these people and compare them to Prayer Man before you could reasonably rule them out as Prayer Man.

 

It's a long road, but it might lead somewhere.

 

 

You seem to have the thing topsy-turvy, Pat.

 

If Wiegman or Altgens were showing us 20 people in the front entrance, then we would have to conclude that a number of non-TSBD employees must have gone unnoticed.

But Wiegman & Altgens do no such thing, leaving any claim that the front steps may have played host to supernumerary persons not connected with the building arbitrary, gratuitious and extraordinary.
If you want to press such an extraordinary claim, let's see what you have to offer in that line.

Thus far anything you've had to suggest (Houston St TSBD warehouse) has come to naught.

 

**

 

Sarah Stanton might be Prayer Man?

 

I know one person who doesn't believe that extraordinary idea for a minute.

His name is Pat Speer.

 

From the large chunk of www.patspeer.com text you copied and pasted into a post a couple of pages back:

 

Although Mrs. Saunders [sic] tells us almost nothing on how the shots were fired, her brief statements are at least of some assistance in clearing up some other mysteries. For one, she says she left the lunch room at 12:20, but has no recollection of seeing Oswald on the day of the shooting. This works against Oswald's being in the second floor lunch room at that time. For two, she says she stood on the east side of the top step, and worked on the second floor. This, along with Billy Lovelady's claim the woman shielding her eyes in the Altgens photo worked on the second floor, suggests the possibility Saunders was this woman. If not her, then Stanton.

 

 

Now if you want to press an extraordinary claim,

e.g. that-- 

  • Prayer Man is a woman
  • there is a woman standing beside Prayer Man
  • Pauline Sanders hallucinated the presence of Sarah Stanton beside her
  • Pauline Sanders completely misremembered which side of the TSBD entrance she was on

--then by all means let's see some extraordinary evidence to back it up.

A photo of Sarah in her cross-dressing testosterone-injecting late-63 phase would be a good start.

 

Until then...

 

 Sarah Stanton

 

**

 

Who's next on your list?



#818 Steve Mcdonagh

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Posted 21 September 2013 - 11:50 AM

 

 

 

 

Major development.

Gary Mack has just emailed John Mytton, a LN poster at Duncan's forum:

 

While the image is an interesting find, the Prayer Man question has probably been answered.  I recently sent the Couch and Darnell frames to Buell Frazier and asked what he thought.  First, he wouldn’t confirm himself being on the top step because the image isn’t clear enough.  He then re-confirmed that Lovelady and Shelley were out on the steps with him, just as he has always said, but he couldn’t confirm Shelley, either, due to the image quality. 
 
Next I asked about Shelley’s appearance and learned he was a little taller than Lovelady (who was 5’8”), had red hair and a slender build.  When I asked if Shelley usually wore a coat and tie to work Buell said no, he “dressed daily in slacks and sport shirts.”  And he repeated that he, Lovelady and Shelley stayed on the steps for “a short time” after the last shot, but he didn’t estimate how long.
 
So unless Buell Frazier is still part of the cover-up plot, TSBD “Miscellaneous Department” manager William Shelley, by elimination, must be Prayer Man.  According to Shelley’s testimony, “I didn’t do anything for a minute” following the last shot, so the man was standing on the steps before, during and after the time Darnell and Couch filmed those brief scenes.
 
Gary Mack
 

 

**
 
This is a real breakthrough, and I for one am very grateful to Gary for taking the trouble to contact Buell Wesley Frazier.

Why is it a breakthrough?

Well, not because of the Shelley idea.
For Shelley's own testimony, and that of the person with him Billy Lovelady, rules him out as Prayer Man:

Mr. BALL - How did you happen to see Truly?
Mr. SHELLEY - We ran out on the island while some of the people that were out watching it from our building were walking back and we turned around and we saw an officer and Truly.
Mr. BALL - And Truly?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Did you see them go into the building?
MMr. SHELLEY - No; we didn't watch that long but they were at the first step like they were fixin' to go in.
Mr. BALL - Were they moving at the time, walking or running?
Mr. SHELLEY - Well, they were moving, yes.


Darnell shows Baker just a couple of seconds away from the building entrance.
Prayer Man is still standing up on the steps.
So Shelley is ruled out. Period.
(Unless, that is, someone wants to accuse him and Lovelady of lying in their WC testimony about their run out on to the 'island'. Who wants to go first?)

The reason Buell Wesley Frazier's response is a breakthrough is that Bill Shelley appears to be the only possibility BWF himself can offer when presented with the Prayer Man image. (Although it's not quite clear from Gary's message whether BWF himself nominated Shelley or whether that's Gary's own suggestion.) 
Given that he is not giving us some new revelation as to the presence of some hitherto unmentioned other person on the steps at that time (i.e. a stranger to the building), and given that Prayer Man cannot possibly be Shelley, we have just received startling confirmation that Prayer Man can only reasonably be Lee Oswald.

lFPHGbd.jpg

BWF probably knows it's Lee but--for the most understandable reasons in the world--cannot say so.
However, to give him credit, he's just done the next best thing.

 

Excellent that we finally have heard from Buell Frazier.  Would have been nice to see the actual correspondence between BWF and Gary.

 

But I agree, Sean.  BWF, who was standing a couple feet away at the time, has effectively limited the possibilities to Shelley and Lovelady.  A powerful statement against any other employee or any stranger being at Prayer Man's location.  And we have thoroughly covered the possibilities of either Shelley or Lovelady being PM previously.

 

This thread just got a turbo boost.

 

On a side note, this throws a knuckleball into the previous discussions concerning the identification of Shelley and Senkel  in the William Shelley thread.

 

Hi Guys

 

Are there any pictures, images or film of Shelley circa November 1963? Was he interviewed by any TV crew, snapped in a clear(ish) image or does Buell Wesley Frazier even have an old image of the two of them together around that time?

 

Sean, I have a couple of questions if you don’t mind.

 

After reviewing the Darnell film we can clearly see Baker running towards the steps at speed and apart from a lightly running lady in a dress no one else appears to be travelling or even reacting with anywhere near the same speed or purpose. From the speed of Bakers motion it stands to reason that unless he (Baker) suddenly slows down, pauses or stops when he reaches the steps of TSBD, his forward motion will likely carry him right up the steps and into the building. In fact this is the very reason I am convinced Baker enters the building alone and without Truly.

 

Now herein lays my question. PM man can clearly be seen standing towards the top left of the steps in a relatively consistent position and pose as we have seen him in earlier film/images as Baker reaches the bottom step. So if Baker does indeed continue his run up the steps he will surely pass PM man before entering the building. How does this fit into the sequence and timing of the Baker/Oswald encounter?

 

Could you please clarify or elaborate on how Oswald/PM, entering the building after Baker but before Truly (whom I presume is somewhere in the melee at the bottom of the steps) and projects himself into a position where he encounters, attracts suspicion and is questioned by Baker necessitating the need for Truly to interject that he (Oswald) is an employee?

 

Kind regards - Steve

 

Hi Steve,

 

 here is a link to a thread that tried to establish the photo ID of William Shelley:

 

http://educationforu...illiam +shelley

 

After BWF's description of Shelley being taller than Lovelady, red hair, and slender, it is probably time to revisit.

 

 

Thanks Richard.



#819 William Kelly

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Posted 21 September 2013 - 05:20 PM

 



 


 

Sean, thanks for responding in kind, as I'm not trying to be contrary. 

 

I'm looking at FBI and DPD and wondering who in those orgs could have influence over this but can't put a finger on a name. 

 

I don't see much difference in Baker's statement and testimony, other than the mention of the fourth floor encounter with someone, which he later said was a reference to the second floor lunchroom encounter. 

 

Baker pretty much sticks to his story of seeing Oswald through the door window, and Truly did not see him, 

therefore Oswald must have been on the other side of the closed door and did not go through it, as he would have had to if he was the Sixth Floor sniper. 

 

As for the Second Floor encounter ruling out Oswald as Sixth Floor shooter: 

 

http://jfkcountercou...-oswald-is.html

 

http://jfkcountercou...wald-is_14.html

 

http://jfkcountercou...ption-part.html

 

http://jfkcountercou...med-guilty.html

 

Now none of this eleminates Oswald as Prayer Man, as that is a distinct possibility. 

 

BK 

 

 

 

No problem, Bill.

 

There's no mention of a "door window" in Baker's 11/22 affidavit story.

There's no mention of a door,

There's no mention of a room.

Instead we hear about a man Baker catches "walking away from the stairway" several floors up the building.

According to Marvin Johnson, who took the affidavit, Baker even talked about searching the man.

 

BK: So Baker told Johnson and Johnson typed it out, and Baker's mistake of saying fourth floor instead of second floor becomes etched in stone. 

And then the Dealey Plaza Cleanup Crew - or Puppet Master enters the picture and in order to cover up the first floor encounter between Baker and Prayer Man, who may or may not be Oswald, they concock a very detailed elaborate scenario that has Baker seeing Oswald through the window of the closed door, but fail to tell Truly that he has to see Oswald enter the door if Oswald really went through it. So who is making up this script for Baker and Truly to follow as part of the cover-up? 

 

This is not the lunchroom story that Baker will tell the WC.

 

**

 

As for Baker & Truly's WC story exonerating Oswald, all a WC defender has to do is argue the following:

Oswald shoots JFK

Oswald comes down the stairs

Oswald on the second floor, hearing the noise of someone on the way up, hurries over to the second-floor landing door and goes through it

Oswald looks through the door window as Truly crosses the landing

Oswald is about to go back out onto the landing when he is surprised to see an officer hit the landing

Oswald spins around to head for the lunchroom

But the officer notices the movement.

 

The scenario I've just outlined is pure crap. But that doesn't matter. The lunchroom story makes it possible. 

Just tweak the timeline here and there, invent extra seconds for Truly and Baker en route to the incident, and hey presto you have all the make-believe ambiguity you need to keep the fable of Oswald's guilt alive.

 

That's what the second-floor lunchroom fiction achieves: it gets Oswald away from the front entrance.

 

BK: As Howard Roffman and myself have detailed, because the above scenario is impossible, it must have happened another way, and doesn't put Oswald away from the front entrance since if he is Prayer Man, a possibility that I still entertain, then he could have went up the front stairs in time for the second floor lunchroom encounter to happen. 

 

**

 

The lunchroom incident doesn't eliminate Prayer Man?

 

BK: the lunchroom encounter doesn't eliminate Prayer Man,  but could include him. In fact if it is Oswald, we now can track his movements more exactly. 

 

Quite the reverse:

Prayer Man eliminates the lunchroom incident.

For it tells us where the real Baker-Oswald-Truly encounter happened:

front entrance.

 

BK: If the Baker-Oswald encounter happened on the front steps, - then Baker didn't suspect Prayer Man as the assassin, and was only asking for directions. Not the encounter that Baker, Truly and Oswald describe - 

 

This is what Darnell is telling us:

Look! Here's Baker, Truly and Oswald--in the frame together!

 

qC4OttM.jpg

 

No need to bustle Oswald upstairs for a phoney second encounter.

 



#820 William Kelly

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Posted 21 September 2013 - 05:39 PM

This is the film that I originally posted at the beginning of this thread.

 

 

 

Is that Prayer Man on the steps? 

 

Can anyone tell us who filmed this sequence, and can we estimate when it took place?

 

It appears to me that it is about five to ten minutes after the last shot. 

 

It would also be cool if someone with the ability can isolate near the end of this film - about 4:36 -  the "College Boy"  with dark, long sleeved shirt and white t-shirt walking down the steps and walking in front of the mail box? 

 

I'd like to compare him to "Prayer Man" and also see if it could be Oswald or Frazer. 


Edited by William Kelly, 21 September 2013 - 05:46 PM.


#821 Thomas Graves

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Posted 21 September 2013 - 05:58 PM

 

 

 

 

Sean,

 

I wonder why Shelley would lie about being on the "island?" 

 

Was it just a faulty memory? 

 

--Tommy  :sun

 

 

He and Lovelady are just at the 'island'.

 

couchloveladyshelley7l8kuy.gif

 

In a second or two they will turn around and notice Baker and Truly at the TSBD front entrance.

 

 

Sean,

 

OK. 

 

In his WC testimony, Shelley said that they ran out "on" (onto?) the island, but in the clip it appears that he and Lovelady are walking down the middle of Elm Street Extension, towards the railway yard / parking lot. 

 

At the very end of the clip, it looks like Lovelady starts running in that direction, leaving Shelley behind.

 

Thanks,

--Tommy :sun

 

Edit:

 

I just watched the clip (with the big red circle) frame-by-frame as my old computer was downloading it at a slowish wi-fi "hot spot,"  and I noticed that when the sun shines briefly on him a couple of times, one can see that the shorter, "Lovelady" figure has a white collar.  Which leads me to believe that this isn't Lovelady after all.

 

edited and bumped


Edited by Thomas Graves, 21 September 2013 - 07:16 PM.


#822 Sean Murphy

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Posted 21 September 2013 - 08:52 PM

 

BK: So Baker told Johnson and Johnson typed it out, and Baker's mistake of saying fourth floor instead of second floor becomes etched in stone. 


And then the Dealey Plaza Cleanup Crew - or Puppet Master enters the picture and in order to cover up the first floor encounter between Baker and Prayer Man, who may or may not be Oswald, they concock a very detailed elaborate scenario that has Baker seeing Oswald through the window of the closed door, but fail to tell Truly that he has to see Oswald enter the door if Oswald really went through it. So who is making up this script for Baker and Truly to follow as part of the cover-up? 

 

SM: Baker's "fourth floor" wasn't a mistake, Bill, it was a contrived fiction--the first draft of the relocated front entrance story.

And the "very detailed elaborate scenario" involving the window of the closed door did not emerge unti months later. At first they tried to go with Oswald sitting at one of the tables. All fiction, from first to last.

 

**

 

BK: As Howard Roffman and myself have detailed, because the above scenario is impossible, it must have happened another way, and doesn't put Oswald away from the front entrance since if he is Prayer Man, a possibility that I still entertain, then he could have went up the front stairs in time for the second floor lunchroom encounter to happen.

 

SM: Sorry, there's nothing in either your analysis or Roffman's to disprove the following scenario:

 

Oswald shoots JFK

Oswald comes down the stairs

Oswald on the second floor, hearing the noise of someone on the way up, hurries over to the second-floor landing door and goes through it

Oswald looks through the door window as Truly crosses the landing

Oswald is about to go back out onto the landing when he is surprised to see an officer hit the landing

Oswald spins around to head for the lunchroom

But the officer notices the movement.

 

**

 

BK: If the Baker-Oswald encounter happened on the front steps, - then Baker didn't suspect Prayer Man as the assassin, and was only asking for directions. Not the encounter that Baker, Truly and Oswald describe - 

 

SM: The encounter that Oswald describes? Oswald never was allowed on the record with any account. Oswald never testified. We have very good reason to believe he put the encounter with a cop and Mr. Truly at the front entrance of the building.

And Baker and Truly were suborned witnesses. The whole point of the rewritten encounter story was to centre it on Baker's suspicion of the man. To cite the differences between the front entrance encounter and the lunchroom encounter as evidence in favour of the latter is to miss the point completely.

 

Out of interest, Bill, did you know Marrion Baker or ever meet him?


Edited by Sean Murphy, 21 September 2013 - 08:55 PM.


#823 David Butler

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Posted 21 September 2013 - 09:28 PM

If the encounter took place at the front entrance why would Baker have been suspicious to challenge someone there ? He must have known that no one shooting from the roof or upper stories would have been able to make it down to that location in time to be at the front entrance after he had parked his bike and run over ? 



#824 William Kelly

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Posted 21 September 2013 - 09:30 PM

No, I never met Marion Baker but looking at the video interviews with him he comes across very credible to me.

 

And if what Roffman says about the second floor lunchroom encounter excludes the possibility of Oswald descending the steps from the sixth floor, how could he be the Sixth Floor Sniper. 

 

i don't believe that Baker or Truly were told to say anything, were coached by anyone, or someone wrote a contrived script that set up a fictional second floor encounter that the three people involved have described in detail. 

 

If you believe that the encounter with Baker that exonerates Oswald was contrived, tell us who contrived it? Who is behind the charade? Who is the scriptwriter and who is pulling the strings? I want to know. 

 

As with those who try to blame Oswald or promote any conspiracy theory, only the evidence that supports your theory is presented, while all others are ignored or said to be lies or fiction. 

 

I prefer G. Kinston Clark's principles as elaborated on here: http://jfkcountercou.../2013/09/g.html  

 

G. Kinston Clark, in The Critical Historian, writes:

 

“The distortion produced by bias are potentially present in any attempt to write history. Sometimes the danger is obvious and menacing, sometimes it is covert, coming from unexpected angles and in not easily detected forms. ….Any interpretation which makes use of facts which can be shown to be false, or accepts as certainty true facts which are dubious, or does not take into account facts which are known, are at best, potentially misleading, and possibly grossly, and dangerously deceptive. ….It is the first task of the historian to review any narrative to find what links are missing altogether…where what is defective cannot be supplied by further research, it is an historian’s duty to draw attention to the fact so that men can know where they stand.…Any historical conception which has not been adjusted to the most recent results will cease to be satisfactory.”

 

 



#825 Sean Murphy

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Posted 22 September 2013 - 02:00 AM

If the encounter took place at the front entrance why would Baker have been suspicious to challenge someone there ? He must have known that no one shooting from the roof or upper stories would have been able to make it down to that location in time to be at the front entrance after he had parked his bike and run over ? 

 

David,

Baker didn't ask Oswald if he worked there because he was suspicious of him but because he needed someone to help him find the stairs to the top of the building.






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