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Oswald Leaving TSBD?


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#811 William Kelly

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Posted 21 September 2013 - 09:30 PM

No, I never met Marion Baker but looking at the video interviews with him he comes across very credible to me.

 

And if what Roffman says about the second floor lunchroom encounter excludes the possibility of Oswald descending the steps from the sixth floor, how could he be the Sixth Floor Sniper. 

 

i don't believe that Baker or Truly were told to say anything, were coached by anyone, or someone wrote a contrived script that set up a fictional second floor encounter that the three people involved have described in detail. 

 

If you believe that the encounter with Baker that exonerates Oswald was contrived, tell us who contrived it? Who is behind the charade? Who is the scriptwriter and who is pulling the strings? I want to know. 

 

As with those who try to blame Oswald or promote any conspiracy theory, only the evidence that supports your theory is presented, while all others are ignored or said to be lies or fiction. 

 

I prefer G. Kinston Clark's principles as elaborated on here: http://jfkcountercou.../2013/09/g.html  

 

G. Kinston Clark, in The Critical Historian, writes:

 

“The distortion produced by bias are potentially present in any attempt to write history. Sometimes the danger is obvious and menacing, sometimes it is covert, coming from unexpected angles and in not easily detected forms. ….Any interpretation which makes use of facts which can be shown to be false, or accepts as certainty true facts which are dubious, or does not take into account facts which are known, are at best, potentially misleading, and possibly grossly, and dangerously deceptive. ….It is the first task of the historian to review any narrative to find what links are missing altogether…where what is defective cannot be supplied by further research, it is an historian’s duty to draw attention to the fact so that men can know where they stand.…Any historical conception which has not been adjusted to the most recent results will cease to be satisfactory.”

 

 



#812 Sean Murphy

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Posted 22 September 2013 - 02:00 AM

If the encounter took place at the front entrance why would Baker have been suspicious to challenge someone there ? He must have known that no one shooting from the roof or upper stories would have been able to make it down to that location in time to be at the front entrance after he had parked his bike and run over ? 

 

David,

Baker didn't ask Oswald if he worked there because he was suspicious of him but because he needed someone to help him find the stairs to the top of the building.



#813 Sean Murphy

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Posted 22 September 2013 - 02:13 AM

No, I never met Marion Baker but looking at the video interviews with him he comes across very credible to me.

 

And if what Roffman says about the second floor lunchroom encounter excludes the possibility of Oswald descending the steps from the sixth floor, how could he be the Sixth Floor Sniper. 

 

i don't believe that Baker or Truly were told to say anything, were coached by anyone, or someone wrote a contrived script that set up a fictional second floor encounter that the three people involved have described in detail. 

 

If you believe that the encounter with Baker that exonerates Oswald was contrived, tell us who contrived it? Who is behind the charade? Who is the scriptwriter and who is pulling the strings? I want to know. 

 

As with those who try to blame Oswald or promote any conspiracy theory, only the evidence that supports your theory is presented, while all others are ignored or said to be lies or fiction. 

 

I prefer G. Kinston Clark's principles as elaborated on here: http://jfkcountercou.../2013/09/g.html  

 

G. Kinston Clark, in The Critical Historian, writes:

 

 

 

“The distortion produced by bias are potentially present in any attempt to write history. Sometimes the danger is obvious and menacing, sometimes it is covert, coming from unexpected angles and in not easily detected forms. ….Any interpretation which makes use of facts which can be shown to be false, or accepts as certainty true facts which are dubious, or does not take into account facts which are known, are at best, potentially misleading, and possibly grossly, and dangerously deceptive. ….It is the first task of the historian to review any narrative to find what links are missing altogether…where what is defective cannot be supplied by further research, it is an historian’s duty to draw attention to the fact so that men can know where they stand.…Any historical conception which has not been adjusted to the most recent results will cease to be satisfactory.”

 

 

 

 

 

 

Bill, 

 

How exactly does your or Roffman's analysis of the second-floor lunchroom incident exclude the Oswald-behind-the-door-window scenario I have outlined? Please be specific.

 

Are you still claiming that Oswald himself described the second-floor lunchroom incident in detail? Where are you getting this idea from? Please be specific by citing the relevant document(s).



#814 Richard Hocking

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Posted 22 September 2013 - 01:36 PM

 

 

 

 

Sean,

 

I wonder why Shelley would lie about being on the "island?" 

 

Was it just a faulty memory? 

 

--Tommy  :sun

 

 

He and Lovelady are just at the 'island'.

 

couchloveladyshelley7l8kuy.gif

 

In a second or two they will turn around and notice Baker and Truly at the TSBD front entrance.

 

 

Sean,

 

OK. 

 

In his WC testimony, Shelley said that they ran out "on" (onto?) the island, but in the clip it appears that he and Lovelady are walking down the middle of Elm Street Extension, towards the railway yard / parking lot. 

 

At the very end of the clip, it looks like Lovelady starts running in that direction, leaving Shelley behind.

 

Thanks,

--Tommy :sun

 

Edit:

 

I watched it frame-by-frame as my old computer was downloading the clip at a slowish wi-fi "hot spot,"  and I noticed that when the sun shines briefly on him a couple of times, one can see that the shorter, "Lovelady" figure has a white collar.  Which leads me to believe that this isn't Lovelady after all.

 

Tommy,

 

Can you post the frame (or frames) where you believe you detect a white collar?

 

There are numerous white artifacts that flash on the clip in the vicinity of Lovelady and the man next to him, and also on the TSBD in the background.  That would explain why the white spot only appears "briefly on him".  I believe that is probably what you are seeing.


Edited by Richard Hocking, 22 September 2013 - 02:15 PM.


#815 Sean Murphy

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Posted 22 September 2013 - 01:43 PM

 

No, I never met Marion Baker but looking at the video interviews with him he comes across very credible to me.

 

And if what Roffman says about the second floor lunchroom encounter excludes the possibility of Oswald descending the steps from the sixth floor, how could he be the Sixth Floor Sniper. 

 

i don't believe that Baker or Truly were told to say anything, were coached by anyone, or someone wrote a contrived script that set up a fictional second floor encounter that the three people involved have described in detail. 

 

If you believe that the encounter with Baker that exonerates Oswald was contrived, tell us who contrived it? Who is behind the charade? Who is the scriptwriter and who is pulling the strings? I want to know. 

 

As with those who try to blame Oswald or promote any conspiracy theory, only the evidence that supports your theory is presented, while all others are ignored or said to be lies or fiction. 

 

I prefer G. Kinston Clark's principles as elaborated on here: http://jfkcountercou.../2013/09/g.html  

 

G. Kinston Clark, in The Critical Historian, writes:

 

 

 

“The distortion produced by bias are potentially present in any attempt to write history. Sometimes the danger is obvious and menacing, sometimes it is covert, coming from unexpected angles and in not easily detected forms. ….Any interpretation which makes use of facts which can be shown to be false, or accepts as certainty true facts which are dubious, or does not take into account facts which are known, are at best, potentially misleading, and possibly grossly, and dangerously deceptive. ….It is the first task of the historian to review any narrative to find what links are missing altogether…where what is defective cannot be supplied by further research, it is an historian’s duty to draw attention to the fact so that men can know where they stand.…Any historical conception which has not been adjusted to the most recent results will cease to be satisfactory.”

 

 

 

 

 

 

Bill, 

 

How exactly does your or Roffman's analysis of the second-floor lunchroom incident exclude the Oswald-behind-the-door-window scenario I have outlined? Please be specific.

 

Are you still claiming that Oswald himself described the second-floor lunchroom incident in detail? Where are you getting this idea from? Please be specific by citing the relevant document(s).

 

 

Bill,

 

You have several times stated that Lee Oswald himself confirmed in detail the second-floor lunchroom story as told by Baker and Truly.

 

You seem to be basing this claim on the two following sources:

 

1. "... I asked Oswald where he was when the police officer stopped him. He said he was on the second floor drinking a coca cola when the officer came in." (Captain Will Fritz, Interrogation Report)

 

2. "Oswald stated that on November 22, 1963, at the time of the search of the Texas School Book Depository building by Dallas police officers, he was on the second floor of said building, having just purchased a Coca-cola from the soft-drink machine, at which time a police officer came into the room with pistol drawn and asked him if he worked there." (FBI Special Agent James Bookhout, Interrogation Report)

 

In both instances, Oswald is reported as having claimed to have already bought a coca cola by the time the officer came in the lunchroom. Fritz even has Oswald state that he was actually drinking said coca cola at the time.

 

This version of events is clearly irreconcilable with Baker's description in his WC testimony of the circumstances under which he caught his first glimpse of Oswald.

 

Now:

 

Do you maintain that Oswald really said those things under interrogation?

 

If not, how can you possibly ask us to depend upon these interrogation report statements?

 

If so, do you believe Oswald was lying?--Or, do you believe Baker was lying in his WC testimony?

 

I would appreciate, in the interests of constructive and meaningful dialogue, direct answers from you to these simple questions.


Edited by Sean Murphy, 22 September 2013 - 01:46 PM.


#816 Sean Murphy

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Posted 22 September 2013 - 01:43 PM

 

 

 

 

 

Sean,

 

I wonder why Shelley would lie about being on the "island?" 

 

Was it just a faulty memory? 

 

--Tommy  :sun

 

 

He and Lovelady are just at the 'island'.

 

couchloveladyshelley7l8kuy.gif

 

In a second or two they will turn around and notice Baker and Truly at the TSBD front entrance.

 

 

Sean,

 

OK. 

 

In his WC testimony, Shelley said that they ran out "on" (onto?) the island, but in the clip it appears that he and Lovelady are walking down the middle of Elm Street Extension, towards the railway yard / parking lot. 

 

At the very end of the clip, it looks like Lovelady starts running in that direction, leaving Shelley behind.

 

Thanks,

--Tommy :sun

 

Edit:

 

I watched it frame-by-frame as my old computer was downloading the clip at a slowish wi-fi "hot spot,"  and I noticed that when the sun shines briefly on him a couple of times, one can see that the shorter, "Lovelady" figure has a white collar.  Which leads me to believe that this isn't Lovelady after all.

 

Tommy,

 

Can you post the frame (or frames) where you believe you detect a white collar?

 

There are numerous white artifacts that flash on the clip in the vicinity of Lovelady and the man next to him, and also on the TSBD in the background.  That would explain why the white spot only appears "briefly on him".  I believe that is probably what your are seeing.

 

 

Exactly, Richard, it's a film artifact.



#817 Richard Hocking

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Posted 22 September 2013 - 01:54 PM

This is the film that I originally posted at the beginning of this thread.

 

 

 

Is that Prayer Man on the steps? 

 

Can anyone tell us who filmed this sequence, and can we estimate when it took place?

 

It appears to me that it is about five to ten minutes after the last shot. 

 

It would also be cool if someone with the ability can isolate near the end of this film - about 4:36 -  the "College Boy"  with dark, long sleeved shirt and white t-shirt walking down the steps and walking in front of the mail box? 

 

I'd like to compare him to "Prayer Man" and also see if it could be Oswald or Frazer. 

Bill,

 

First off, I think the two portions of that clip may possibly show two different individuals:  A man standing back near the NW corner where PM was seen earlier, and then "College Boy".

 

Now, focusing only on "College Boy", there is a visual clue.  Postal Collection Boxes are typically 48" tall.  College Boy is standing right next to it.  If the collection box is 4 foot, College Boy appears too short  for LHO.

If we could show the Collection Box is shorter than 48", it would be time to reconsider some possibilities.



#818 Richard Hocking

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Posted 22 September 2013 - 02:00 PM

One other item concerning the unidentified flim clip Bill Kelly has posted.

If we can identify the police officer who pulled up on the Three Wheeler Cycle, he should have filed a report of his activities.

That report may list the time he arrived and parked in front of the TSBD entrance.



#819 Thomas Graves

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Posted 22 September 2013 - 05:06 PM

 

 

 

 

 

Sean,

 

I wonder why Shelley would lie about being on the "island?" 

 

Was it just a faulty memory? 

 

--Tommy  :sun

 

 

He and Lovelady are just at the 'island'.

 

couchloveladyshelley7l8kuy.gif

 

In a second or two they will turn around and notice Baker and Truly at the TSBD front entrance.

 

 

Sean,

 

OK. 

 

In his WC testimony, Shelley said that they ran out "on" (onto?) the island, but in the clip it appears that he and Lovelady are walking down the middle of Elm Street Extension, towards the railway yard / parking lot. 

 

At the very end of the clip, it looks like Lovelady starts running in that direction, leaving Shelley behind.

 

Thanks,

--Tommy :sun

 

Edit:

 

I watched it frame-by-frame as my old computer was downloading the clip at a slowish wi-fi "hot spot,"  and I noticed that when the sun shines briefly on him a couple of times, one can see that the shorter, "Lovelady" figure has a white collar.  Which leads me to believe that this isn't Lovelady after all.

 

Tommy,

 

Can you post the frame (or frames) where you believe you detect a white collar?

 

There are numerous white artifacts that flash on the clip in the vicinity of Lovelady and the man next to him, and also on the TSBD in the background.  That would explain why the white spot only appears "briefly on him".  I believe that is probably what you are seeing.

 

 

Richard,

 

If somebody could radically slow down that part of the GIF (with the big red circle) which shows the two men approaching and passing the traffic sign, I think everybody could see what I'm talking about.  I don't know how to do that, or if it's even possible for me to do it. 

 

I might be wrong but I don't think what I'm seeing is a film artifact for two reasons:  1) it's well-placed to be a white shirt collar, and 2) it's visible twice.  (IMHO, if it were an artifact, the chances of that happening would be astronomical.)

 

The only reason I noticed the twice-occurring "collar" was because my nine-year-old laptop was taking a long time to download (or whatever it's called) the gif yesterday at a crowded wi-fi coffee house, and, having nothing better to do, I obsessively watched the two guys "walk the walk" (very slowly, like "frame-by-frame" if I was watching a film) for several minutes.  It was then that I noticed both of the manifestations of the "collar."  The first "collar" is much more noticeable than the second one, especially at normal speed.   If memory serves, the second "collar" occurs  after "Lovelady" has passed the sign pole, but now I'm not sure about the timing.

 

I hope to be proven wrong.  IMHO, the two guys resemble Lovelady and Shelley physically, and except for the "collar,"  the clothes they're wearing are consistent with what we know they were wearing that day. 

 

But even if it is L. & S., why aren't they on the "island," like Shelly said in his WC testimony?

 

 

Sincerely,

--Tommy  :sun


Edited by Thomas Graves, 07 December 2013 - 11:29 PM.


#820 William Kelly

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Posted 22 September 2013 - 11:28 PM

I think Richard's Timeline helps a lot, and it should be expanded to include Shelley and Lovelady and Frazer movements after the last shot and other items that are appropriate. 

 

Timeline of Certain Pertinent Events at the TSBD

 

[Thank to Richard Hocking for putting this together]
http://jfkcountercou...ent-events.html


Timeline:

 

12:00: Eddie Piper sees Oswald on the 1st floor of the TSBD. 1
12:00 – 12:10: (estimated time) Bonnie Ray Williams goes to 6th floor to eat lunch (sees and hears no one) (?) 2
12:12: Carolyn Arnold sees Oswald in hallway between front door and double doors a few minutes before 12:15 3
12:15– 12:25: Carolyn Arnold sees Oswald in the1st floor Lunch Room 4
12:15: Arnold Rowland sees man with Rifle on 6th floor West Window (slender, dark hair, light shirt open at neck; other man was "colored" hanging out of East corner window) 5
12:15– 12:20: BRW takes elevator from 6th to 5th floor leaving Dr.Pepper bottle and partially eaten chicken behind (?) (sees and hears no one) 6
12:18: Howard Brennan sees man on 6th floor (no rifle visible at this time). (w/m, early30's, slender, 165-75, light clothing) 7
12:20- 12:25: Carolyn Arnold looks through glass door and sees Oswald inside on 1st floor near front of TSBD 8
12:26- 12:30: Ruby Henderson sees two men on 6th/ or Top floor. One dark (Mexican or Negro), and was wearing a white shirt. The other man was the taller and lighter of the two 
12:28: Richard Carr sees heavy set man, what, glasses, tan 
sport coat in 2nd window from East corner, 6th floor. 10 
12:29: Carolyn Walther sees two men w/ Rifle in 5th floor SE corner Window. (one man wearing brown suit coat) 11
12:29 Robert Edwards see w/m in 6th floor SE corner window, light colored shirt, short sleeve, open neck, possibly thin 12 
12:29 Ronald Fischer sees Man in 5th floor "right corner" window, man was laying down,could only see head, 
light headed and open neck shirt, man was in his twenties (Fischer will later change floor to 6th and shots from 4 to 3.) 13
12:29 – 12:30: Geneva Hine notes the lights are out on her phone system as motorcade approaches TSBD. 12:30 Oswald said he was on the first floor at the time of the shooting, then went up to the second floor lunchroom to get a coke. 14.

12:30 “Prayer Man” is standing at the top of the front steps of the TSBD where Buell Wesley Frazer is also standing, just above William Shelley and Lovelady, who are on lower steps.
12:30: 
Shots fired at JFK Limo.
12:30: Amos Euins sees Blackman with rifle in 6th floor SE corner window (later changed to white man) 15 This man firing the rifle also has white shirt and bald spot on top of head. 
12:30: Howard Brennan sees white man w white shirt and Rifle in 6th floor SE corner window 16
12:30: Jack Dougherty is 10 feet west of West Elevator on 5th floor (within sight and sound of NW stairs); hears one shot. 17
12:30: Dillard Photo taken 3-15 seconds after shots shows Norman and Williams in SE 5th floor corner windows (and possibly Jarman inthe 4th window from the SE corner). They say they run to West Window after shots. 18
12:31: Vicky Adams and Sandra Styles descend the NW Rear stairs from the 4th floor to the 1st floor (see & hear no one). 19
12:31: Otis Williams runs up NW stairway to 4th floor (sees no one) goes back to his 2nd floor office (?) 20
12:31: Officer Baker enters TSBD front Entrance, runs past "Prayer Man" and goes to back w Truly, who shouts twice to release elevator. (no response). They see 2 white men by the elevators. (probably Shelley and Lovelady according to Adams) 21
12:31: Officer Barnett runs to guard back of TSBD (and Fire Escape on East Side). 22
12:31:30: Officer Baker and Roy Truly on 2nd floor by NW stairway; claim to see Oswald in Lunch room. 21
12:32: HSCA analysis show boxes in 6th floor window rearranged within 2 minutes of shooting. 22
12:32 – 12:33 Mrs. Reid returns to her 2nd floor office. Oswald calmly walks by her with coke in hand. 23
12:32 – 12:33 Deputy Roger Craig arrests a woman in her early thirties attempting to drive out of a private railyard parking lot. She was in a brown 1962 or 1963 Chevrolet . Craig turns her over to Deputy Sheriff Lummy Lewis. 24
12:32– 12:36: Carr sees the same man he previously saw in the window, walk away from the TSBD and get into a Rambler Station Wagon 10
12:32– 12:33: Officer Baker sees man on 3rd or 4th floor, w/m, 30 yrs old, 5'9, 165 lb, dark hair, light brown jacket. Manager vouches for this man and Baker lets him go. (Baker 11/22/63 affidavit) 25
12:33– 12:34: Officer Barnett moves from Back of TSBD to guard the Front entrance . 22
12:33 James Worrell see a man in a dark sportcoat and light colored pants dash out of the back of the TSBD about 3 minutes after shots fired at motorcade. Man was late 20's /early 30's, 5'8", dark brown hair. Ran South on Houston. 26
12:33– 12:34: Dougherty takes West Elevator down to 1st floor. (?) Talks to Givens. 27
12:33– 12:34: Baker and Truly on 4th or 5th floor, spot East Elevator, but West elevator is missing 28 They take the East Elevator to the seventh floor and find nothing, return to fourth floor where Baker reports to Inspector Sawyer, the senior Dallas Police Department officer in the building. 
12:33– 12:36: Officers Mooney, Vickery and Webster arrive at 1st floor rear elevator. Vickery and Webster take stairs up. Mooney takes elevator up to 2nd floor, where power goes off, he switches to the stairs and encounters " some men he believes to be officers" in plain clothes coming down the stairs. He passes these men and continues up. 29
12:33– 12:36: In his report of 11/23/63, Det. Harry Weatherford claims that he, Mooney, Boone, Walters, and Webster all went into the rear of the TSBD together and ascend the stairs. Weatherford goes out the window to search the roof of the loading dock, then comes back in and searches the first floor [sic] with an "unknown DPD Detective" (?) Then he goes to the top floor and eventually joins Mooney and Co. on the 6th floor 30
12:34– 12:35:From across the street court clerk Lillian Mooneyham sees man standing by boxes on 6th floor of TSBD. 31
12:34– 12:36: Officer Mooney arrives for first quick survey (does not go to "sniper lair") of 6th flloor, sees no one, then goes up to 7th floor. 29
12:34: Inspector Sawyer enters Front of TSBD, enters Passenger elevator; runs into "this Man"; goes up to 4th floor32
12:35: Baker and Truly are on roof of TSBD 33
12:36: Euins tells Officer Harkness shots came from 5th floor TSBD 34
12:36– 12:37: Harkness arrives at rear (North Loading dock) door of TSBD. Sees "some Secret Service Agents".35
12:37: Sawyer retrurns to 1st floor, goes out in front to set up Command Post. 32
12:40 – 12:45: Dep. Craig hears whistle. Sees light green Nash Rambler Station Wagon stop; sees w/m, 140-150, brown hair, in his 20's, white T shirt, runs down slope and gets inside. The Driver of the vehicle was husky latin, dark wavy hair, tan windbreaker jacket. Craig runs over to report this to the Command Post in front of the TSBD entrance and encounters a SS Agent ("40 years old, sandy-haired with a distinct cleft in his chin. He was well-dressed in a gray business suit") 24
12:45: Description of suspect broadcast by DPD: w/m, 30, 5'10, 165, 30-30 (Winchester Rifle on Channel 2) 36

12:50 – 12:55: SSA Forest Sorrels returns from Parkland Hospital to the rear entrance of the TSBD and enters the building with no one checking his ID, the first genuine SS Agent to arrive on the scene. 37
12:58: Captain Fritz arrives at front entrance of TSBD 38
12:58: Mooney Leans out window and Signals Fritz, who is standing in front of TSBD (After leaving the 7thfloor,Mooney, Vickery, and Webster went down to 6th floor, where Mooney discovered SE corner window "sniper lair", empty shells, chicken remnants and soda.. 39
1:22: Boone and Weitzman discover Rifle they idenitfy as a 7.65 Mauser, concealed between boxes on the 6th floor40
1:22 Truly tells DPD Capt. Lumpkin that one of his men - Oswald is missing. Lumplin confers privately with two or three other senior DPD officers and then escorts Truly up to the Sixth Floor where they interupt Capt. Fritz examining the rifle and Lumpkin tells Fritz that Truly has something important to tell Fritz, and Truly tells Frtiz about the missing employee - Oswald, and give Fritz Oswald's address at Mrs. Paine's home in Irving. Fritz then walks across the street to Sheriff Decker's office where they confer privately before Fritz returns to his DPD office, where Oswald, under arrest, is waiting for him, having been arrested in the Tippit shooting. 

[BK Notes, my additions to this chronology are not footnoted as to their source.] 

References:

1. Eddie Piper Dallas Sheriff Affidavit of 11/23/63; also WC Testimony
2. 
Bonnie Ray Williams WC testimony , Vol. III, pp 169-173 (left 6th floor at 12:20; was up there for 15 minutes)
3. CD5:41 Archives from Mary Ferrell Timeline
4. Anthony Summers 1978 interview with Carolyn Arnold/ Jim Marrs, Crossfire p. 49
5. 
Arnold Rowland, interviewed by Arlen Specter and Gerald Ford before the Warren Commission (10th March, 1964) 
6. Bonnie Ray Williams WC testimony , Vol.III – Page 173, March 24, 1964; http://www.jfk-assas...ol3/page173.php
7. Howard Brennan Dallas Sheriff statement: November 22, 1963. (Description). Howard Brennan FBI Report: January 7,1964. (Gave 12:18 as time of sighting)
8. 
Arnold's 26 Nov 1963 statement is published by Weisberg (1967) p. 210, with discussion on pp. 74-75.The original handwritten statement says 12:25. When retyped by the FBI the time was changed to 12:15 (Guth & Wrone 1980, p. xxxii). This is cited by Don Thomas in Rewriting History:Bugliosi Parses the Testimony, http://www.maryferre...s_the_Testimony
9. Ruby Henderson FBI statement of 12/6/63. Saw men on 6th floor after ambulance had departed.
10. Richard Randolph Carr: 
http://www.aarclibra...DealeyPlaza.pdf, p. 8
11. 
http://www.aarclibra...DealeyPlaza.pdf
12. Robert Edwards WC Testimony on April 9. 1964, Vol VI, pp. 203- http://www.jfk-assas...ol6/page203.php
13. Ronald Fischer Dallas Sheriff's Statement: November 22, 1963. 19H475; FBI Report: December 2,1963. CD205 
14. Geneva Hines WC Testimony, 4/7/64 http://www.aarclibra...df/WH6_Hine.pdf
15. James Underwood WC Deposition,4/1/64, Vol. VI, p. 170, http://www.jfk-assas...ol6/page168.php
16. Howard Brennan Sheriff Statement: http://jfk.ci.dallas...28/2823-001.gif
17. Jack Daugherty WC testimony: http://www.jfk-assas...ol6/page380.php
18. Dillard photo. Regarding Jarman: Mike Regan says Gary Mack told him he examined the negatives which confirmed Jarman in the 4thwindow from the SE Corner. http://educationforu...opic=4624&st=45 post #50.
19. Vicky Adams Warren Commission Testimony, 4/7/64
20. The Elevator Escape Theory by Richard Gilbride, 
http://www.reopenken...t/gilbride.html,pp 21-22
21. Officer Baker WC Testimony, Vol. III pp.247-263
22. from Comparison of Dillard and Powell photos, 6HSCA 110-115
23. Mrs. Robert Reid WC Testimony, 
http://www.jfk-assas...ol3/page274.php
24. Roger Craig, When They Kill A President, 1, http://www.ratical.o.../JFK/WTKaP.html
25. (Officer Baker Affidavit), http://jfk.ci.dallas...04/0426-001.gif
26. James Worrell WC Testimony, Vol. II, p. 196, http://www.jfk-assas...ol2/page196.php
27. Jack Dougherty WC Testimony, Vol. VI, p 380, http://www.jfk-assas...ol6/page380.php
28. Baker WC Testimony, Vol. III, pp. 258-259 http://www.jfk-assas...ol3/page258.php
29. Luke Mooney WC Testimony, Vol. III, pp. 283-284 http://www.jfk-assas...ol3/page283.php
30. Harry Weatherford, Dallas Sheriff Supplementary Investigation Report, http://mcadams.posc....ny/weatherf.htm
31. Lillian Mooneyham, FBI Report: January 10, 1964, 24H531
32. Ins. Sawyer WC Testimony, Vol VI, pp 318-320, http://www.jfk-assas...ol6/page319.php
33. Baker WC Testimony Vol. III, p 262 http://www.jfk-assas...ol3/page262.php (Baker took total of 15 minutes, spent about 10 minutes on roof)
34. Harkness WC Testimony, Vol. VI, p. 310 
http://www.jfk-assas...ol6/page310.php
35. Harkness WC Testimony, Vol. VI, p. 312, http://www.jfk-assas...ol6/page312.php
36. DPD Description of Suspect broadcast; Mary Ferrell Chronologies Vol 4 Nov 22 1963 pg 172, Tape #1 gives 12:37-12:45; JFK Assassination Chronology 22 Nov 1963 pg 49 gives 12:45 as time; http://www.terra.es/...rios/cintas.htm gives 12:45
37. SSA Forest Sorrels, Vol VII, p. 347-348,WC testimony, 
http://www.jfk-assas...ol7/page347.php
38. Captain Fritz, WC Testimony, Vol IV, p.204 http://www.jfk-assas...ol4/page204.php
39. Mooney signals Fritz, http://www.jfk-assas...ol3/page284.php, Fritz arrived and was in frontof TSBD at 12:58, then went inside according to his WC testimony, 37 
40. Dep. Eugene Boone, WC testimony, Vol 6, pp 204-205. 
http://www.jfk-assas...ol4/page205.php

Other Related Reading:

"The Elevator Escape Theory" by Richard Gilbride, 
http://www.reopenken...t/gilbride.html
Greg Parker Website; http://reopenkennedy...-cop-encounters
"The Man in the Dark Sports Coat" by William Weston http://www.manuscrip...PQ/sports~1.htm
Duke Lane thread on Lancer forum : http://www.jfklancer...g_id=82512
Don Thomas , "Rewriting History: Bugliosi Parses the Testimony" http://www.maryferre...s_the_Testimony
"Dealey Plaza Conspiracy Witnesses, HSCA Staff Report", http://www.aarclibra...DealeyPlaza.pdf
"A Comprehensive Review of Reclaiming History", by James DiEugenio

 

Richard"s 

Questions and observations:

1. Electrical Power Events: Geneva Hine's phone system lights go off, just before12:30. Was this a power outage or just no calls at that time?; Truly and Baker are unable to get an elevator down from the 5th floor less than a minute after the shots. Sandra Styles said she and Vicky Adams tried the passenger elevator in front, but when it did not work, they went to the backstairs. The West elevator has power when Mooney gets on the 1st floor,then loses power on the 2nd floor, 12:33-12:36. Who cut power to elevator at that precise moment? Select Elevator circuits and possibly he phone system circuit were reported off, but I have seen no report of all power to the TSBD being off, which would have happened if the Main Circuit breaker was thrown. The 3 elevators would have been on their own dedicated circuits, as would the phone system. The evidence supports the possibility that selected circuits may have been turned on/off at various times just before and after 12:30. This rules out random fuse failure (or circuit breakers being tripped) and supports the notion of manipulation of the power circuits. Was the Fuse/Breaker box located in the basement of the TSBD?

2. Why is there no exchange of information with Mooney when he is passing the men he believes might be DPD officers on the stairs? They would have been the very first respondents on the scene. If you were Mooney, wouldn't you at least ask them a few questions … like Had they seen a man with a rifle roaming around on an upper floor? And why were they were leaving the scene so soon?

3. There are three general descriptions of unknown men seen on the upper floors, in some cases with rifles, just before and at the time of the shooting:
First man: a younger white man who was slender.
Second man: another white man who may have been older, heavier, and wearing a tan jacket or coat and possibly glasses. 
Third man: a dark complected man who may have been Latin/Mexican/Negro.

4. Secret Service men were reported on the back entrance dock and at the front entrance within minutes of the shots, and well before Forrest Sorrels was the first actual SS agent to return to Dealey Plaza/ TSBD.

5. Unidentified men who were thought to be police officers:
A. "Some" plain clothes officers seen by Officer Mooney as he ascends the NW stairs from the 2nd floor
B. Weatherford searches the 1st floor with an unknown DPD detective

6. Unidentified Civilians:
A. Man seen in front elevator by Sawyer
B. Two men seen by rear elevator seen by Baker (may be Lovelady and Shelley)

7. Individuals seen leaving the scene:
A. Man seen by Worrel
B. Man seen by Carr
C. Man seen by Craig
D. Woman in car arrested by Craig.


Edited by William Kelly, 22 September 2013 - 11:32 PM.


#821 Pat Speer

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Posted 23 September 2013 - 12:45 AM

 

 

Extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence, Sean. YOU have moved beyond raising the question of Oswald's being Prayer Man, to claiming it's obvious. But it's only obvious to you (and perhaps a few others) because you have dismissed the possibility it could be ANYONE else, based upon the vague statements of people made days, weeks, and years after the shooting, that suggest (at least to you) that all the other people standing on the steps were standing somewhere else.

 

So, IF these vague statements are trustworthy and reliable enough to support your claim, then they also oughta be trustworthy and reliable enough for you to identify ALL the people standing on the steps in Altgens, Wiegman, and Darnell. This is something that needs to be done, IMO, before your claim Prayer Man (or Woman) was Oswald can be considered a reasonable possibility, let alone an obvious fact.

 

Let's start with Sarah Stanton. Where is she in the Altgens photo? Frazier indicates that she was standing by him in the aftermath of the shots. I think you've found him in Darnell. Where is she in that film? To his left? If so, where is she in Altgens? If you can do this--go through the people claiming to have been on the steps one by one and identify them in the films and photos--it seems probable you will still have a few left over.

 

If so, you would have to find photos of these people and compare them to Prayer Man before you could reasonably rule them out as Prayer Man.

 

It's a long road, but it might lead somewhere.

 

 

You seem to have the thing topsy-turvy, Pat.

 

If Wiegman or Altgens were showing us 20 people in the front entrance, then we would have to conclude that a number of non-TSBD employees must have gone unnoticed.

But Wiegman & Altgens do no such thing, leaving any claim that the front steps may have played host to supernumerary persons not connected with the building arbitrary, gratuitious and extraordinary.
If you want to press such an extraordinary claim, let's see what you have to offer in that line.

Thus far anything you've had to suggest (Houston St TSBD warehouse) has come to naught.

 

**

 

Sarah Stanton might be Prayer Man?

 

I know one person who doesn't believe that extraordinary idea for a minute.

His name is Pat Speer.

 

From the large chunk of www.patspeer.com text you copied and pasted into a post a couple of pages back:

 

Although Mrs. Saunders [sic] tells us almost nothing on how the shots were fired, her brief statements are at least of some assistance in clearing up some other mysteries. For one, she says she left the lunch room at 12:20, but has no recollection of seeing Oswald on the day of the shooting. This works against Oswald's being in the second floor lunch room at that time. For two, she says she stood on the east side of the top step, and worked on the second floor. This, along with Billy Lovelady's claim the woman shielding her eyes in the Altgens photo worked on the second floor, suggests the possibility Saunders was this woman. If not her, then Stanton.

 

 

Now if you want to press an extraordinary claim,

e.g. that-- 

  • Prayer Man is a woman
  • there is a woman standing beside Prayer Man
  • Pauline Sanders hallucinated the presence of Sarah Stanton beside her
  • Pauline Sanders completely misremembered which side of the TSBD entrance she was on

--then by all means let's see some extraordinary evidence to back it up.

A photo of Sarah in her cross-dressing testosterone-injecting late-63 phase would be a good start.

 

Until then...

 

 Sarah Stanton

 

**

 

Who's next on your list?

 

 

Sarah Stanton. You still haven't shown us where she is in the footage with Frazier standing near the top of the steps. He said he spoke to her just after the shots. Where is she?

 

It appears that you are cherry-picking your way through a bunch of statements in order to arrive at your preferred conclusion. You can not reasonably claim that Prayer Man is Oswald when you can't even say for sure Prayer Man is a man.

 

So that's one person on the steps who could be "Prayer Man." Shall we go for another?

 

How about Roy Lewis? He said he was alone in the entrance of the building when the shots were fired and that Oswald wasn't with him at the time of the shooting. If he's not Prayer Man, and Oswald was, then he would have to be considered a part of the cover-up.

 

Could he be Prayer Man? Why not? Because he's a negro? Couldn't he have been a light-skinned negro? I honestly don't know Lewis' skin tone. Do you?

 

What is it about Prayer Man that makes you so sure it's a white male? And Oswald? It's hard for me to believe that a number of people not involved in the conspiracy (Baker, Truly, Frazier, Lewis, Reid and ???) would all pretend they either didn't see Oswald at the front of the building after the shots, or that they did see him elsewhere in the building, and then keep this secret for decades.

 

I don't know who Prayer Man is. If you could identify all the people on the steps, and show how they were all employees of the TSBD, that would be a solid start toward making the case Oswald was Prayer Man, and that a number of people lied to cover it up.

 

There are no short-cuts around this, IMO.



#822 David Von Pein

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Posted 23 September 2013 - 03:09 AM

Why do so many conspiracy believers totally ignore Oswald's own words concerning where he said he was located at the time of the shooting?




YouTube-JFK-Channel-Logo.png YouTube-Channel-Number-Two-Logo.png

Edited by David Von Pein, 23 September 2013 - 03:14 AM.


#823 Thomas Graves

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Posted 23 September 2013 - 03:22 AM

Why do so many conspiracy believers totally ignore Oswald's own words concerning where he said he was located at the time of the shooting?

 

[...]

 

David,

 

 

Reporter:  "Did you kill the President?"

 

Oswald:  "No, they're taking me in because I lived in the Soviet Union.  I'm just a patsy!"

 

 

--Tommy  :sun


Edited by Thomas Graves, 23 September 2013 - 03:27 AM.


#824 William Kelly

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Posted 23 September 2013 - 03:32 AM

Why do so many conspiracy believers totally ignore Oswald's own words concerning where he said he was located at the time of the shooting?




YouTube-JFK-Channel-Logo.png YouTube-Channel-Number-Two-Logo.png

 

 

Yea, whether Oswald is "Prayer Man" or if the Baker-Oswald-Truly encounter took place on the first or second floor, it is clear Oswald was on the lower floors of the TSBD - "I work in that building!" - and was not in a position to be the Sixth Floor Sniper and was just as he claimed - a Patsy. And whether or not he walked down the front steps and went out the front door or the back door, he wasn't on the Sixth Floor when the assassination happened. 

 

So then, cutting to the chase, the real question isn't about Oswald at all - but who was the Sixth Floor Sniper - the man in the white shirt, about five foot eight, one hundred and forty pounds with a bald spot on the top of his head and armed with a high powered rifle?  

 

And how did he get out of the building? 

 

BK 



#825 David Von Pein

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Posted 23 September 2013 - 03:38 AM

...he wasn't on the Sixth Floor when the assassination happened.


Then how did OSWALD'S rifle get on the sixth floor, Bill?

And why did Oswald lie about the "curtain rods"? What possible reason would Oswald have had for telling such a false tale to Buell Frazier (twice)?

And you think it's just a coincidence that OSWALD'S prints were all over the boxes in the Sniper's Nest--the same nest where Kennedy's killer was located at 12:30 PM?

My, what lucky patsy plotters.

Edited by David Von Pein, 23 September 2013 - 03:39 AM.





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