Aug 25 2005, 04:39 PM
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![]() Super Member ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 2772 Joined: 16-February 05 From: Cambridge England Member No.: 2517 |
For newcomers to the case.
In the book Case Closed, chapter "I'll never forget it for as long as I live" Postner attempts to rubbish the eyewitness testimony of anyone who casts doubt on the lone nut theory. It is vital to Postners book that he discredits all testimony hostile to the W/C findings. To achieve this he employs several techniques, regurgitation of long disputed FBI reports, as if they were the Holy Graille, glossing over of parts of the testimony that he can't explain, and the repeated trashing of hostile witnesess reputations. This is pretty standard fare, but can appear convinsing to newcomers to this case. Before we get onto the Dealy Plaza witnesess lets examine postners technique in action on Albert Bogard,the Dallas car sales man who had a strange meeting with a man who called himself Lee Oswald on the 9th of nov 1963. Postner states "He (Bogard) was the Dallas car salesman who claimed Oswald had test driven a car with him, although none of his co-workers supported his story. He was fired shortly after he told the story." Observe the way the trick works, make a bald statement, as if it were uncontested fact, then trash the witness(he was fired shortly after) The facts of this incident though are somewhat different to Mr Postners version. Firstly,Bogards account was corroborated by two fellow workers, one of whom even claimed that "Oswald" returned to the dealership a few days later. Postner also fails to inform us that bogard was not the only employee to be sacked in the weeks following the assassination,far from it, a regular cull ensues. Now, not being familiar with employment laws, practises in Texas, in the 1960's I draw no inference from this, but I find Postners failure to even mention it indicative of his whole approach to this case. Now lets see how he handles two key Dealy Plaza eyewitnesess, Arnold Rowland, who claims to see TWO men on the sixth floor, one holding a rifle at 12-15. And Carolyn Arnold, who claims to see Oswald in the second floor lunch room also at 12-15. Now if both these witnesess are correct not only is Oswald calmly eating his lunch on the second floor at 12-15, but, at the same time two men,one armed with a rifle, the other dark complected are seen on the sixth floor of the book depository. To be fair there are problems with both witnesess, and Postner battons on these like a Vampire on a virgins neck, but, as per usual fails to point out any positive aspects of their testimony. This behaviour becomes even more self serving when we observe how he treats witnesess supportive of his theory. Carolyn Arnold was the witness who who told Anthony Summers in 1978 that she had seen Oswald in the second floor lunchroom at 12-15. POstner starts by informong us that Arnold had made a contemporaneous statement, saying she had only glimsed Oswald briefly, Arnold had told Summers that the FBI had misquoted her,Postner then points out that Arnold had signed her statement, and that four other women who accompanied her supported her original statement. So, on the first point, could the FBI, have either on purpose, or by mistake misquoted her? "Hoovers obsession with speed made impossible demands on the field. Many mistakes were made." Asst Director Courtney Evans. Other former agents recall virtually being ordered to avoid leads that might point to a conspiracy. On the second point Postner is vague about which statement the co-workers support, it could well be that they agree to catching a glimse of oswald in the lunch room at this time. Nor does he say when these statements were taken, by whom, or under what conditions. Contrast this with his treatment of Charles Givens Quote on " I came downstairs and discovered i'd left my smokes in my jacket upstairs, when I got upstairs he (Oswald) was on the sixth floor toward the window the shots were fired from." Unfortunately there's a few things about Mr Givens that Postner fails to inform us of (1) It is impossible for Givens to see Oswald as he testifies unless, without any reason for so doing, he walks to the far east of the elivator. (2) Givens is a known narcotics user, with a long Police record. (3) At 12-00pm Bonnie Ray Williams returns to the sixth floor to eat his lunch, he see's neither LHO, or Givens. (4)Givens was himself sought by the Police following the Assasination because he, like Oswald had left the depository shortly after the shooting. When questioned he at first mentions nothing about seeing Lee upstairs(This only emerges in 1964) He said he had seen Lee in the Domino room,first floor, reading a newspaper at approx 11-50. Mr Givens is poor, Black, a drug user, with a long police record, who had left the biulding following the assassination,Do we need to say more? But its with the second eyewitness that postner really gets to vent his spleen,Mr Arnold Rowland was a bystander in the Plaza with his wife. He asks her if she wants to see a secret service agent on the sixth floor, he'd seen "A man back from the window, he was standing and holding a rifle, he wasn't in the snipers nest, but in the far left window" He also spotted another man in the infamous right hand window, Rowlands said that this man was "Dark complected" this was at 12-15 exactly the time Carolyn Arnold claims to see Oswald in the second floor lunch room. His testimony is backed up by three other witnesess, (1) John Powell, an inmate on the sixth floor of the Dallas county jail watches two men with a gun on the sixth floor of the TSBD. (2) Mrs Carolyn Walther see's two men with a gun on the fifth, or sixth floor, one is wearing a brown suit coat. (At 12-00, one Richard Carr noticed a man on the seventh floor, who was by chance also wearing a brown suit coat.) (3) Mrs Ruby Henderson, sees two men standing back from a window on the upper floors, she reports that one of the men had darker hair, and a darker complextion than the other. Mrs Henderson, Arnold Rowland, & John Powell all report that one man was of a darker complextion than the other. So how does Postner explain this,Here they come again, FBI reports, buckets of white-wash, omissions, and the usual trashing of witnesess. Rowland is a liar, and known fantasist who's own wife doesnt even back him up. John Powell is seen off by the good ole FBI, they conclude that Powell could not have seen the TSBD from his position, and that because of past mental health problems they have "No confidence in any information furnished by him." Carolyn Walther is another fantasist who's friend Pearl Springer sees no gunmen on the sixth floor, and Ruby Henderson is just plain confused because she is not 100% sure which high floor the men she saw were on. Henderson is a wonderful example of Postner at work, he states " Henderson says the men could have been mexican or Negro's WRONG, Henderson says that one of the men she saw was darker complected, meaning that the second man was of lighter complextion. He continues," On the fifth floor directly below Oswald were three young black men, Bonnie Ray Williams, Junior Jarman & Harold Norman looking out of the window, True, but nowhere does mrs Henderson talk of seeing three, or even two young black men, she is quite specific on this point. TWO MEN STANDING BACK FROM THE WINDOW,ONE A DARKER COMPLEXTION THAN THE OTHER.Postner concludes," Her FBI statement (Again with the Feds) indicates that Henderson saw two of these three young men on a high floor, she was not describing the sixth floor. BALDERDASH SIR, How many more times before it sinks in Henderson "Two men, one more dark complected than the other, first man may have been mexican(Cuban?) Rowland "A man back from the window, standing and holding a rifle,and a second darker man at the snipers window" Powell, "I remember the guys fooling with the scope, quite a few of us saw them"he too remembers one being darker complected than the other. Rowlands, Powell, Henderson, &Walther. All independantly, and spontaneously recall essentially, the same men at the same time, in the same location. Forget Postners spin, misdirection, & name calling, this is good solid eyewitnesess testimony, mostly swept under the carpet by the Warren Commission, and given Postners version of a Stalinist show trial in "Case Closed" next I will look at how he treats L/N star witness Howard Brennan. |
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Stephen Turner Gerald Posner and the Eyewitness Accounts Aug 25 2005, 04:39 PM
Stephen Turner If other members have examples of Postner's ... Aug 25 2005, 07:57 PM
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Blair Dobson it's "Posner".
Not to detract from... Aug 26 2005, 12:54 PM
Stephen Turner QUOTE (Blair Dobson @ Aug 26 2005, 12:54 PM)i... Aug 26 2005, 01:15 PM

John Dolva QUOTE (Stephen Turner @ Aug 26 2005, 01:15 PM... Aug 29 2005, 05:28 AM

Blair Dobson QUOTE (Stephen Turner @ Aug 26 2005, 01:15 PM... Aug 29 2005, 12:13 PM

Pat Speer QUOTE (Blair Dobson @ Aug 29 2005, 12:13 PM)G... Aug 30 2005, 10:21 AM

John Simkin QUOTE (Pat Speer @ Aug 30 2005, 09:21 AM)It i... Aug 30 2005, 10:24 AM


Pat Speer QUOTE (John Simkin @ Aug 30 2005, 10:24 AM)QU... Aug 30 2005, 10:37 AM


Stephen Turner QUOTE (Pat Speer @ Aug 30 2005, 10:37 AM)QUOT... Aug 30 2005, 11:23 AM

Blair Dobson [
For clarity's sake, you mean Posner, not Gro... Aug 31 2005, 01:18 AM
Dawn Meredith QUOTE (Blair Dobson @ Aug 26 2005, 12:54 PM)i... Sep 2 2005, 05:56 PM
Blair Dobson [/quote][/color]
Blair,
We here who have studi... Sep 5 2005, 11:08 AM
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From "Mo... Aug 26 2005, 01:03 PM
Nic Martin Posner's book, like the WCR, is good reference... Aug 26 2005, 04:05 PM
Bernice Moore Stephen:
I would like to say I would like to agre... Aug 29 2005, 07:13 AM
John Simkin Very good thread Stephen. I have added a link to t... Aug 29 2005, 07:55 AM
Stephen Turner No need for apologies, he makes me spit as well. I... Aug 30 2005, 09:20 AM
Stephen Turner Lets turn to how Posner deals with the testimony r... Sep 1 2005, 02:40 PM
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James Richards For those who collect photos, the Odio Sisters.
J... Sep 2 2005, 03:56 AM
Mark Knight Is Posner not simply employing the tactics of a la... Sep 2 2005, 05:42 AM
John Dolva QUOTE (Mark Knight @ Sep 2 2005, 05:42 AM)Is ... Sep 2 2005, 07:55 AM
Stephen Turner QUOTE (Mark Knight @ Sep 2 2005, 05:42 AM)Is ... Sep 2 2005, 09:05 AM
Tim Gratz See my post re the men at Odio's door.
Posner... Sep 2 2005, 05:54 AM
Tim Gratz I believe the revelation that Oswald was indeed at... Sep 2 2005, 08:09 AM
Mark Knight Stephen, my point was merely that Posner's tac... Sep 2 2005, 05:48 PM
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George De Mohrenschil... Sep 6 2005, 01:04 PM
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... Sep 15 2005, 02:27 PM
Stephen Turner The above is indicative of Posners style,He finds ... Sep 15 2005, 05:24 PM
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Stephen Turner , he begins, "The problem is that it appears ... Sep 23 2005, 08:43 AM
Lee Forman QUOTE (Stephen Turner @ Sep 23 2005, 07:43 AM... Sep 23 2005, 05:31 PM
Lee Forman The steampipe and switchbox. Sep 23 2005, 09:45 PM
Lee Forman QUOTE (Lee Forman @ Sep 23 2005, 08:45 PM)The... Sep 23 2005, 10:14 PM
Stephen Turner Thanks Lee, an excellent post. Sep 26 2005, 09:44 AM
ville huoponen I am quite surprised that one has yet to mention t... Sep 27 2005, 09:41 PM
Stephen Turner QUOTE (ville huoponen @ Sep 27 2005, 09:41 PM... Sep 28 2005, 07:24 AM
Stephen Turner LEE BOWERS Jr
Lets have a look at Posners treatme... Sep 29 2005, 03:03 PM
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Stephen Turner Sorry for some reason the above post didn't ta... Jul 7 2006, 11:01 AM
Peter Lemkin QUOTE (Stephen Turner @ Aug 25 2005, 05:3... Jul 7 2006, 12:16 PM
Dawn Meredith [quote name='Peter Lemkin' date='Jul 7... Jul 7 2006, 03:03 PM
Peter Lemkin QUOTE (Stephen Turner @ Aug 25 2005, 05:3... Jul 7 2006, 12:17 PM
Stephen Turner Here are a few more Oswald impersonations that the... Jul 7 2006, 01:02 PM
Stephen Turner Quote from the thread EJECT! EJECT! EJECT... Apr 16 2007, 12:44 PM
Thomas H. Purvis Although I seem to recall having provided this pre... Apr 16 2007, 04:04 PM
Tom Kiehl Thank you ST for the incredible posts...Saw Posner... Apr 16 2007, 06:26 PM
Cliff Varnell Gerald Posner shot himself in the foot last 2/21 o... Apr 17 2007, 04:48 AM![]() ![]() |
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