Klein's $ 21.45 deposit of 3/13/63 was NOT "Hidell" money order

[David Von Pein]

Then why do we have any "handwriting analysts" testifying in court at all? If everybody's signature and handwriting COULD conceivably be easily faked and forged, what good are people like McNally and Alwyn Cole?

Edited March 8, 2011 by David Von Pein

[Greg Parker]

I wonder how the evil conspirators got Oswald to put his writing on a "fake" money order? Was Lee trying to frame HIMSELF?

IOW "I, David Von Pein, have nothing to refute this so will try to divert attention and hope it moves onto James Cadigan looking into his tealeaves."

Give me a copy of your signature and I'll forge it within a day, Dave.

P.S. Lee's signature wasn't exactly uniform - it changed from form to form. Ever seen the DeVilbiss application and compared it to his forms to the Marine Corp requesting his discharge be changed? Didn't think so. There are only three aspects of the signature one has to copy correctly for the rest to fall into place. The "L", the "O" and the "S"

Lee,

it's possible Oswald's problem with signatures was a product of having been to a lot of different schools during his formative years. The problem arises because individual teachers and schools vary in style of writing taught. Ironic that the very thing that may have caused him grief using a credit card was the very thing that would have made forging his signature a breeze...

[Michael Hogan]

Then why do we have any "handwriting analysts" testifying in court at all? If everybody's signature and handwriting COULD conceivably be easily faked and forged, what good are people like McNally and Alwyn Cole?

Oswald never appeared in court. Experts that appear in court are subject to cross-examination.

The Warren Commission had the opportunity to hand-pick the experts that appeared. And only ask them what they wanted to ask.

And lead their testimony.

[Greg Parker]

Then why do we have any "handwriting analysts" testifying in court at all? If everybody's signature and handwriting COULD conceivably be easily faked and forged, what good are people like McNally and Alwyn Cole?

HANDWRITING EXAMINATION

Continuing interest in quality assurance concerns again complements the traditional areas of signature examination, indented writing, foreign writings etc. However the main area of change has been in the debates surrounding the interpretation and presentation of this evidence type. Further developments have continued in reaction to the attacks on handwriting evidence in the American courts. This has led to an increased willingness by some institutions to publish background information previously unavailable.

Source: 13th INTERPOL Forensic Science Symposium, Lyon, France, October 16-19 2001

Re McNally:

His testimony included the caveat that some of the material examined were copies.

SUITABLE STANDARDS

Cancelled checks, contracts, applications, and business letters make suitable exemplars or standards. Please see our suggested list. The writing can be properly identified, the date can be verified, and the habits of the writer can be studied. Additional standards may be needed if the words on the disputed writing do not match the standards.

Ideally, original writing should be available for the scrutiny of the document examiner. Original writing is always better than a photocopy or a facsimile. If it is impossible to obtain original documents, a first generation photocopy should be supplied. The original documents should be requested whenever the adverse party supplies a photocopy. Intermediate tones are almost always lost in a photocopy because it aims to secure the greatest possible contrast. Subsequent generations of photocopies may drop sufficient detail, rendering them unusable.

Documents similar in nature will make the best standards. For example, contracts should be compared with contracts, and cancelled checks with cancelled checks. Capital letters should be compared with capital letters, lower case letters should be compared with lower case and unconnected lower case with unconnected lower case. You also need to compare documents using the same kind of writing instrument for example, ink with ink, and pencil with pencil. Try to find writing on similar documents. People often have more than one style signature depending on the document being executed. Cheques may be executed in a more careless manner than wills and contracts.

There are many characteristics of handwriting that can be compared besides letter forms and connecting strokes. Document examiners compare line quality, pressure patterns, size and proportions, spacing, slant, baseline, and utilization of space. Document examiners can compare similar letters such as "N" and "M," and "P" and "R"; circle letters and loops can be compared. Therefore, all available handwriting samples should be given to a document examiner.

While it may be possible to make a match with only a few standards, the more standards available the better. Collect as many samples of handwriting, including signatures, as possible. It is necessary to collect enough handwriting samples to enable the expert to render a professional opinion. How much is enough? Enough would be sufficient standards to eliminate any other writer as the author of a document.

http://www.handwritingexpert.org.uk/solicitors_guide.htm

Were document standards met here? I don't think so.

And even when what is thought to be a proper standard for comparison is found, major problems can still ensue...

Also from the above website:

Document examiners have given erroneous conclusions based on forged standards. When the standards have been fabricated by the same writer as the forged material, an opinion of authenticity based on false information will occur. Document examiners mistakenly identified Adolph Hitler as the author of the Hitler Diaries because they used forged standards of Hitler for comparison.

Note that I am not posting the above to illustrate anything other than there are many pitfalls in hand writing analysis. That you wish to ignore all potential and known problems speaks volumes.

"Oswald ordered the rifle because it's his writing on the documentation" ignores the FBI's sleight-of-hand. And I'd suggest to you that such sleight-of-hand has been more than amply demonstrated. If paper work has been "shuffled", and you were distracted by the left hand and didn't see what the right hand was doing, it follows that Oswald did not order the weapon, and therefore, the writing on the forms is not his. Face it; you are cornered.

And from that corner you are holding aloft the Hitler Diaries and proclaiming them real on the basis of expert infallibility! Good luck with that...

[David Von Pein]

You cannot mail a money order over 700 miles from Dallas to Chicago, then have it delivered to Klein's, then have it sorted, picked up and then delivered to the bank and then have it deposited in 24 hours. Pre zip code and pre computer scanning. You cannot do that even today. Simply not possible.

You're dead wrong about this. And the date at the top of Waldman #7 ("Mar 13 '63") proves you are wrong. (Oh, yeah, Waldman 7 is a fake too, right?)

BTW, Oswald mailed the money order via AIR MAIL (probably fairly early in the morning on 3/12 would be my guess, BEFORE HE WENT TO WORK that day). That's likely how the money order got to Chicago in 24 hours, because it was likely mailed (by AIR mail) very early in the day on March 12th.

In fact, it very likely was in Chicago by the evening of March 12th. Otherwise, it wouldn't have been delivered by the Chicago post office to Klein's on the 13th.

"AIR MAIL":

Edited March 9, 2011 by David Von Pein

[David Von Pein]

Dave: Do you furnish barf bags?

Every time I read one of your silly "EVERYTHING'S FAKE & EVERYBODY LIED" posts, I sure feel like reaching for a barf bag, I tell ya that.

How close are you to embracing Fetzer's theory about Z-Film fabrication, Jimbo? I'll give you three more months, and you'll be in bed with Fetzer. Six months after that, you'll believe all of Lifton's theories too, probably even his "No Shots Came From The Rear" tripe. You're already part of the way there already--since you think that Kennedy's brain was substituted for another one at the supplemental brain exam.

With a running start like that, you'll totally be in Lifton's camp before you know it.

Edited March 9, 2011 by David Von Pein

[Guest Tom Scully]

You cannot mail a money order over 700 miles from Dallas to Chicago, then have it delivered to Klein's, then have it sorted, picked up and then delivered to the bank and then have it deposited in 24 hours. Pre zip code and pre computer scanning. You cannot do that even today. Simply not possible.

You're dead wrong about this. And the date at the top of Waldman #7 ("Mar 13 '63") proves you are wrong. (Oh, yeah, Waldman 7 is a fake too, right?)

BTW, Oswald mailed the money order via AIR MAIL (probably fairly early in the morning on 3/12 would be my guess, BEFORE HE WENT TO WORK that day). That's likely how the money order got to Chicago in 24 hours, because it was likely mailed (by AIR mail) very early in the day on March 12th.

In fact, it very likely was in Chicago by the evening of March 12th. Otherwise, it wouldn't have been delivered by the Chicago post office to Klein's on the 13th....

Oswald's time card entries for March 12 seem to preclude your stab at "making stuff up". Post Office wasn't open yet when the work day started at 8:00 am, and the morning job entries represent a busy morning schedule at work. Your scenario is not remotely probable, but carry on....did Oswald purchase the money order in question on the morning of the 12th, buy an airmail stamp, deposit the stamped envelope with the order form and M.O. in a special, airmail only mailbox or chute in a P.O.? Where was the nearest P.O. sorting center, in relation to where the order envelope was mailed? Was their a P.O. sorting center at the airport in Chicago? Which airport? Did Klein's pick up their own mail at a local P.O. at the start of the business day, were there additional deliveries or pick ups by Klein's during the day?

You do know your assertion of "in the mail in Dallas on one day, and deposited at and received by a Chicago bank on the next day", is unbelievable, but you will never admit it?

[David Von Pein]

Oswald's money order was on its way to Chicago shortly after 10:30 AM, Dallas time, on March 12th, 1963. The envelope is postmarked "10:30" (which, of course, is AM; it's certainly not 10:30 PM).

And it was sent AIR MAIL. So, I'd like to know what is so extraordinary about an AIR MAIL letter that is postmarked 10:30 AM being able to travel the relatively short (flying) distance between Dallas and Chicago in just a few hours' time?

Of COURSE Oswald's money order could arrive in Chicago on the afternoon or evening of March 12. Given the postmark and the fact he used air mail, it's quite possible.

And the PROOF it did arrive in time for Klein's to run Oswald's order through their cash register is, of course, Waldman #7, which has a MARCH 13 stamp at the top, and Waldman told everybody what that stamp signifies in his WC testimony, which must also be a lie, per the conspiracy mongers (or Waldman was simply a boob). Right, Jimbo?

Edited March 13, 2011 by David Von Pein

[William Kelly]

You cannot mail a money order over 700 miles from Dallas to Chicago, then have it delivered to Klein's, then have it sorted, picked up and then delivered to the bank and then have it deposited in 24 hours. Pre zip code and pre computer scanning. You cannot do that even today. Simply not possible.

You're dead wrong about this. And the date at the top of Waldman #7 ("Mar 13 '63") proves you are wrong. (Oh, yeah, Waldman 7 is a fake too, right?)

BTW, Oswald mailed the money order via AIR MAIL (probably fairly early in the morning on 3/12 would be my guess, BEFORE HE WENT TO WORK that day). That's likely how the money order got to Chicago in 24 hours, because it was likely mailed (by AIR mail) very early in the day on March 12th.

In fact, it very likely was in Chicago by the evening of March 12th. Otherwise, it wouldn't have been delivered by the Chicago post office to Klein's on the 13th....

Oswald's time card entries for March 12 seem to preclude your stab at "making stuff up". Post Office wasn't open yet when the work day started at 8:00 am, and the morning job entries represent a busy morning schedule at work. Your scenario is not remotely probable, but carry on....did Oswald purchase the money order in question on the morning of the 12th, buy an airmail stamp, deposit the stamped envelope with the order form and M.O. in a special, airmail only mailbox or chute in a P.O.? Where was the nearest P.O. sorting center, in relation to where the order envelope was mailed? Was their a P.O. sorting center at the airport in Chicago? Which airport? Did Klein's pick up their own mail at a local P.O. at the start of the business day, were there additional deliveries or pick ups by Klein's during the day?

You do know your assertion of "in the mail in Dallas on one day, and deposited at and received by a Chicago bank on the next day", is unbelievable, but you will never admit it?

Thanks for posting that Tom.

Please note that the CIA's post-defection Chronology of Oswald notes that Oswald must have taken the photos of Walker's residence on a Sunday, because his records at Jaggers/Chiles/Stoval (JCS) indicate he worked every weekday and overtime on Saturdays that month, but when it comes to picking up the rifle, they say he must have "lied" on is time sheets and mailed the order for the rifle and picked it up at some time when his time cards say he was working.

If you look at the time card on the day Tom posts, he works on a JSC account with Sam Bloom, the advertising agency and public relations firm that also happened to make the arrangements for the location of the luncheon, the motorcade, the timing and route of the motorcade, the press buss and cars in the motorcade.

When I suggested that in the nearly one hour time frame that Oswald "worked" on the Sam Bloom account, perhaps he wasn't physically at the JCS plant, but actually delivering or picking up copy or whatever from the Sam Bloom offices, and that would have given him the opportunity to mail the order for the rifle or pick it up, though there's a lot of explaining to do as to what he did with the rifle after he picked it up - as it would not be a package that he could easily explain away as curtain rods.

BK

[Guest Tom Scully]

More from H&L regarding the rifle order:

(excerpt from an early manuscript:

The US Postal Money order

To pay for the rifle and shipping, the Warren Commission concluded that "A. Hidell" purchased a postal money order in Dallas on March 12, in the amount of $21.45. Oswald mailed it to Klein's in Chicago, and it was deposited into their account on March 13.

One of the U. S. Postal Inspectors in Dallas in 1963 was Harry Holmes, an active FBI informant identified by the FBI as "Dallas T-2." Holmes told the Warren Commission that the money order used to purchase the rifle was purchased "early in the morning of March 12." Unfortunately, the Warren Commission failed to ask Holmes how he arrived at this conclusion.

NOTE: How did Harry Holmes, in 1964, know that the money order was purchased on the morning of March 12, 1963? The only known reference to the morning of March 12 is found on the postmark on the envelope (10:30 am) in which the money order was mailed to Klein's, but it was not shown to Holmes during his WC testimony.

On March 12, at 10:30 am, Oswald was working at Jaggers-Chiles-Stoval. According to JCS records, he began work on his first camera job at 8:00 am (the same time the post office opened) which lasted 20 minutes. He then worked on 8 other camera jobs throughout the morning until his lunch break from 12:15 to 12:45.

The JCS time records do not allow time for Oswald to have walked to the Dallas post office, purchase the money order from the post office, and returned to work "early in the morning of March 12" (prior to 10:30 am). Oswald could not have purchased and mailed the money order during or after his lunch break, because if the letter was mailed after 12:00 noon it could not have arrived in Chicago, and certainly not at Klein's, by March 13th.

The money order published in the Warren Volumes, #2,202,130,462, was made payable to "Klein's Sporting Goods." The purchaser was listed as "A. Hidell," and the address was listed as "P.O. Box 2915, Dallas, Texas." The name "A Hidell" does not appear to have been written by Oswald and appears to be the handwriting of Marina Oswald.

NOTE: the Warren Commission asked FBI document "experts" James Cadigan and Alwyn Cole their opinions of the handwriting of the name "A. Hidell" on the money order. Cole testified that the writing on the money order was done by Lee Harvey Oswald, without comparing any of the writing on the money order with the known writing of Oswald.

James Cadigan testified that the writing on the money order was done by Lee Harvey Oswald and compared only the words "Dallas, Texas" with Oswald's known writing.

Significantly, neither Cadigan nor Cole referred to or offered their opinions as to whether the handwritten "A. Hidell" was similar to Oswald's known writing.

Locating the Postal Money Order

FBI agents John W. Toedt, Robert J. Dolan, and James L. Mahan met with Klein's Sporting Goods officials and reviewed microfilm records during the late hours of November 22 and the early hours of November 23. By 5:00 am, the agents had located the records involving Oswald's alleged purchase of the rifle and confiscated the microfilm. Agent Dolan departed for the FBI laboratory in Washington, DC with film in hand. The microfilm records allegedly included copies of the following documents, later published in the Warren Volumes:

1) an order coupon used by Oswald to order a rifle for $19.95

2) a Klein's order form describing the rifle, the name and address of the purchaser, the cost, and method of payment

3) envelope mailed from Dallas to Klein's dated March 12, 1963

NOTE: it is interesting to note that the envelope allegedly mailed to Klein's was photocopied, but the US postal money order used to pay for the rifle was not microfilmed

A few hours after FBI agents confiscated Klein's microfilm (5:00 am CST), FBI Director J. Edgar Hoover told President Johnson they had already recovered the money order used to pay for the rifle. But, from the available records, we now know that Hoover was either lying or there was a second money order.

On Saturday morning FBI agent John Toedt, one of three FBI agents who met with Klein's officials and reviewed their microfilm records, contacted Mr. Cox with the US Post Office in Chicago. Toedt requested the post office's assistance in locating a postal money order and was told to contact the division headquarters in Kansas City.

Dallas Postal Inspector Harry Holmes said "according to the FBI, the amount of the order was $21.95 and had been received by Kleins on March 20, 1963." Holmes told the Warren Commission a slightly different story in 1964. Holmes said, "the FBI furnished me information that a money order of some description in the amount of $21.95 had been used as reimbursement for the gun that had been purchased from Klein's in Chicago, and that the purchase date was March 20, 1963."

A summary report, written by Chief Postal Inspector H.B. Montague on January 17, 1964, titled "Assistance Rendered by the Postal Inspection Service in Investigation of President Kennedy's Assassination" read:

"Advice was received on the morning of November 23 from the FBI that a rifle similar to that found in the sniper's nest had been purchased from Klein's Sporting Goods Company, Chicago, Illinois, for $21.95, with a postal money order issued March 20, 1963."

NOTE: the Klein's microfilm records were confiscated by FBI agents Toedt, Dolan, and Mahan on November 23 and published in the Warren Volumes. They show a US postal money order dated March 12, 1963, in the amount of $21.45, a Klein's shipping record dated March 20, and an envelope mailed to Kleins from Dallas postmarked March 12, 1963. If these records came from the Klein's microfilm, then why was there any confusion as to the amount of the money order, the date of the money order, or the date of shipment?

Dallas postal inspectors were unable to locate a money order in the amount of $21.95 or a confirmation of the delivery of a rifle to "A. Hidell" on or about March 20, 1963. On Saturday morning, November 23, Postal Inspector Martin J. McGee, from Chicago, telephoned Dallas and spoke with Postal Inspector Cox. McGee told Cox that Klein's Sporting Goods depositied monies into the First National Bank, Chicago, but the bank did not photographically record deposits. With McGee holding on the line, Cox advised Dallas Postal Inspector Harry Holmes of their conversation. Cox related that the Federal Reserve Bank, Chicago, would have cashed postal money orders for the First National Bank of Chicago, but they too did not photographically record deposits. McGee further advised Cox that Klein's had received two cash items on March 13, both in the amount of $21.45. Cox then relayed the information to Holmes who stated that he thought that he would be able to find a record of the money order in Dallas.

After hearing the details of the conversation between McGee and Cox on Saturday morning, November 23, Holmes knew that Klein's had deposited two cash items, in the amount of $21.45, to the First National Bank of Chicago on March 13, 1963. Both Holmes and the FBI also knew that neither the First National Bank, the Federal Reserve Bank, the US Post Office, nor Klein's had made a photographic record of these deposits. With no photographic record, all that remained for Postal Inspector/FBI informant Harry Holmes to do was produce a US postal money order in the amount of $21.45.

The summary report issued by the US Postal Service on January 17, 1964 explained Holmes' version of how he located the money order:

"Search at the main post office, Dallas, by a postal inspector (Harry Holmes) failed to disclose such an order (postal money order in the amount of $21.95); however, the inspector upon checking undeliverable sporting goods magazines in the post office found an add of Klein's showing the price of an identical rifle for $21.45."

NOTE: There are two different stories as to how Harry Holmes learned about the $21.45 money order:

1) Holmes learned about the two deposits by Klein's on March 13, 1963, each in the amount of $21.45, from the conversation between Inspector McGee and Mr. Cox on Saturday morning, November 23.

2) Holmes told the Warren Commission that he sent his secretary out to purchase some magazines. In one of the magazines he found an advertisement by Kleins for a rifle identical to the one allegedly used to kill the President for $19.95, plus $1.50 for shipping-$21.45 total. Holmes said that he then telephoned a postal inspector in Chicago, informed him of his "discovery," and the inspector then confirmed that $21.45 had been deposited to Kleins bank account.

The summary report continued, "The Postal Inspector in Charge at Chicago was so informed immediately and determined through examination of bank deposit slips that Klein's had deposited a money order for $21.45 about March 14, 1963."

NOTE: no one bothered to ask how a postal inspector in Chicago was able to examine bank deposit slips for Kleins Sporting Goods on Saturday morning, November 23.

The summary report continued, "Further search by an inspector at the Dallas post office (Harry Holmes) disclosed record of the issuance of money order No. 2,202,130,462, for $21.45, on March 12, 1963.

NOTE: Holmes claimed to have found the "stub" for money order No. 2,202,130,462, in the amount of $21.45, but the stub was never produced in evidence, nor has it ever been seen, nor was there a single witness that confirmed Holmes' finding of a "stub."

The summary report continued, "This paid order was located at the Records Center in Alexandria, Virginia on the early evening of November 23." It was turned over to a Secret Service agent in Washington, DC who flew it to Dallas." The initials of Secret Service Agent John H. Grimes (JHG) appear on the back of the money order that was published in Volume XVII, p 677 (CE 788).

Harry Holmes' efforts appeared to resolve the question of a money order received by Kleins in the amount of $21.95. The money order was dated March 12, 1963, and appeared to match a deposit of $21.45 made to Klein's bank account in Chicago on March 14, 1963. But a simple review of the money order and the bank deposit, as published in the Warren Volumes, shows that neither can be considered as evidence and both may, in fact, be fabrications.

NOTE: None of the FBI agents who met with Klein's officials and reviewed the microfilm records were questioned by the Commission.

Locating Money Order No. 2,202,130,462

The US Postal Service reported that National Archives and Records Service employee Robert H. Jackson found the money order at the Federal Records Center in Arlington, Virginia. Jackson then gave the money order to J. Harold Marks of the US Post Office, who notified Secret Service agent John E. Parker at 9:35 pm, November 23. Parker met with Jackson and Marks at Marks residence and obtained the money order. The back side of the money order published in the Warren Volumes (Vol XXIV, p. 261) contains the initials RHJ (Robert H. Jackson), JHM (J. Harold Marks), and JEP (John E. Parker). The date "11-23-63" appears by each of their names.

According to US Postal Inspector H.B. Montague the money order was then hand delivered to Dallas by a Secret Service agent (possibly John H. Grimes). Unfortunately, I have been unable to locate a Secret Service report that confirms the money order was hand carried from Alexandria, Virginia (Washington, DC) to Dallas by Grimes. In Dallas the money order was photocopied by the Dallas Police, initialed by Grimes on November 24, and may have been shown to Oswald.

Two days later, on November 26, Grimes turned the money order over to James T. Freeman at the FBI laboratory in Washington, DC.

Was Money Order No. 2,202,130,462 used to purchase a rifle?

Postal money order No. 2,202,130,462 was published in Volume XVII, p 677. Neither the front nor back side contains endorsement or date stamps of the First National Bank (Klein's account), Federal Reserve Bank (clearing bank), or the US Post office. The purpose of endorsement stamps is to track deposits through the banking system and insures that a deposit item is not deposited, or cashed, more than once. If a check or money order lacks endorsement stamps, it means that the check or money order was never deposited or cashed at any financial institution. The lack of endorsement stamps on US postal money order No. 2,202,130,462 means that it was never deposited to any financial institution. According to the postmark, it was obtained from the US post office in Dallas and bears the date of March 12. There has never been an explanation for the the lack of a bank endorsement or date.

The Warren Commission offered this $21.45 unused money order as proof that Oswald purchased a $21.45 rifle (including postage) from Klein's Sporting Goods. According to the FBI and Warren Commission, this money order was deposited on March 14 (or 15th) to Klein's bank account #50 91144 at the First National Bank of Chicago.

Was Money Order No. 2,202,130,462 deposited to Kleins account?

When Klein's received a check or money order, they endorsed the reverse side with a rubber stamp and deposited it to their account at the First National Bank of Chicago. The endorsement stamp read:

PAY TO THE ORDER OF

The First National Bank of Chicago

50 91144

KLEIN'S SPORTING GOODS, INC.

This deposit stamp appears on the reverse side of the $21.45 money order published in WC Volume XVII, p 677. Robert Wilmouth, Vice-President in the Operations Department of the First National Bank of Chicago, explained the process after which a postal money order was deposited to his bank (into Klein's account). Wilmouth said that when an item was received by First National, it had to be endorsed on the reverse side with the name and number of the account holder (the Klein's endorsement stamp).

Money order 2,202,130,462, when deposited, should have been routinely stamped and dated by the First National Bank of Chicago (ENDORSEMENT STAMP #1). It would then be sent to the Federal Reserve Bank in Chicago where it would again be stamped and dated (ENDORSEMENT STAMP #2). Finally, it would be sent to the central processing center in Kansas City where it would be again stamped and dated (ENDORSEMENT STAMP #3).

The $21.45 money order, according to Wilmouth, should have been stamped and dated by three different banking institutions. But not a single bank endorsement stamp or transaction date appears on either the front or back side of the postal money order. It is clear that postal money order No. 2,202,130,462 was never deposited or cashed by any bank or financial institution.

NOTE: Bank Vice-President Robert Wilmouth was never called to testify before the Commission. Wilmouth most certainly would have pointed out that the money order was never deposited to any financial institution due to a lack of bank endorsement stamps.

The reader is encouraced to refer to bank endorsement stamps and date stamps on both the front and reverse side of checks issued to Oswald by Leslie Welding Volume XXIV, p 886-890; see also bank endorsement stamps and date stamps on both the front and reverse side of checks issued to Oswald by Reilly Coffee-Volume XXIV p 892-900; see also bank endorsement stamps and date stamps on both the front and reverse side of unemployment checks issued to Oswald by the State of Texas-Volume XXII, p 199-202.

Klein's Bank Deposits

Klein's recorded their business transactions from 7 retail stores in the Chicago area and their mail order business on microfilm. The FBI confiscated their microfilm records on November 23, 1963 and took them to the FBI laboratory in Washington, DC.

The FBI reviewed the microfilm and located a 4 page list of deposits totaling $13, 827.98, including an item for $21.45. Three FBI agents then interviewed Robert Wilmouth, Vice-President of the First National Bank of Chicago. Wilmouth confirmed that a deposit had been made by Klein's on March 15, 1963, in the amout of $13,827.98. He said that postal money orders were sent to the Federal Reserve Bank of Chicago, which in turn sent them to a central processing center located in Kansas City, Missouri. He also told the agents that his bank did not microfilm money orders, but the Federal Reserve Bank would be able to identify the money order by number.

The three FBI agents next spoke with Lester Gohr, Assistant Cashier, of the Federal Reserve Bank of Chicago. Gohr explained that records regarding postal money orders were kept for six months-the oldest records at the bank were from May 29, 1963. There is no indication that the FBI agents asked Gohr if the Federal Reserve Bank could identify the money order, or the post office from which it was issued, by number.

Klein's vice-president William Waldman testified before the Warren Commission on May 20, 1964. Attorney David Belin handed Waldman postal money order 2,202,130,462 and said, ".....on the reverse side there appears to be an endorsement of a bank." Belin probably knew the stamp on the reverse side of the money order was Klein's deposit stamp and not a bank endorsement. There was not a single bank endorsement stamp on the money order, even though Belin suggested there was.

Belin asked Waldman when the money order was deposited to the Klein's account. Waldman answered, "I cannot specifically say when this money order was deposited by our company...." One of the reasons Waldman could not determine the date of deposit was because there was no date stamp or bank endorsement on the money order. Another reason was nothing identified the source of the $21.45 entry-it was simply a number on paper tape generator by an adding maching. It was one of many such numbers included in a 4 page list of deposits made to Klein's account on March 13, 1963, which totaled $13,827.98.

NOTE: no one attempted to explain how the alleged deposit could have been made to the Kleins' account in Chicago on March 13, 1963-one day after the money order was purchased and mailed from Dallas!

Waldman was unable to say if or when postal money order 2,202,130,462 was deposited to Klein's bank account. He was not asked if the $13,827.98 deposit, which included an item for $21.45, was from their mail order business or one or more of their 7 retail outlets.

A handwritten date of "3/13/63" appears on the 4 page list of deposits, but the date on the First National Bank of Chicago deposit slip for $13,827.98 reads "February 15, 1963." This date is a month before the money order was allegedly purchased. This date may or may not have been a clerical error by either Klein's or the Bank, but neither the FBI nor Warren Commission attempted to resolve this glaring discrepency. Why not ?

The Warren Commission used the $21.45 entry on the paper tape from an adding machine, matched it with the $21.45 on an undeposited postal money order, and offered these items as "proof" that Oswald purchased a Mannlicher-Carcano rifle from Klein's in March, 1963.

Postal Money orders issued at the GPO in Dallas-Sept-Dec, 1962

FBI SA Donald E. Stangel wrote a report concerning Oswald's payments to the Department of State, in re-payment of his loan, on November 30, 1963. Stangel obtained cashed money orders, purchased by Oswald and sent to the Department of State, from the Money Order Center, US Post Office Department, in Kansas City. Following is a list of those money orders:

1,156,417,562 $9.71September 1, 1962Ft. Worth

1,156,418,896 $10.00Ft. Worth

1,158,380,709 $10.00November 14, 1962GPO Dallas

1,158,384,596 $100.00December 6, 1962GPO Dallas

1,158,384,597 $90.00December 6, 1962GPO Dallas

Between November 14 and December 6 ( 3 1/2 weeks) the US post office in Dallas sold 3887 money orders-slightly more than 1000 per week. Three months later, on March 12, 1963, Oswald allegedly purchased the following money order from the main post office (GPO) in Dallas:

2,202,130,461$21.45March 12, 1963GPO Dallas

Money orders were issued in numerical sequence from both the Dallas and Ft. Worth post offices. By March 12, had they continued selling 1000 money orders per week, the Dallas post office should have seen selling money orders beginning with 1,158,389,000. However, the money order allegedly purchased by Oswald numbered 2,202,130,461. It is doubtful that the Dallas Post office sold 1,043,745,864 (one billion, 43 million, seven hundred forty five thousand.......) money orders in 3 months. The number on the money order made payable to Kleins Sporting Goods suggests that either the money order came from another location or, if from the Dallas post office, came from a different series of money orders.

Summary of the Money Order

It is difficult to believe that neither the FBI, Warren Commission members, nor their staff attornies noticed that bank endorsements and dates of deposits were missing from the postal money order.

• A new postal money order could have been obtained at any time, from any post office. The notation of "Dallas, TX, 3/12/63" could have been placed on the money order at any time.

It is difficult to believe the Commission concluded that a $21.45 entry from among 4 pages of paper tape from an adding machine represented the deposit of the postal money order.

• A paper tape from an adding machine could have been created anywhere, at any time.

It is difficult to believe the Commission published the deposit slip for $13,827.98 in the Volumes, dated "February 15, 1963, yet concluded the deposit had been made on March 13, 1963!

• In the absence of original documents, a date could have been placed on records copied from microfilm at any time.

Nevertheless, this was the documentation used by the Warren Commission to prove that Oswald purchased a money order in Dallas to purchase a rifle from Klein's that allegedly was used to assassinate the President of the United States.

Today, it is impossible to verify the date of deposit of the $13,827.98 (which includes the $21.45). Klein's is out of business, their bank records from the First National Bank of Chicago were destroyed long ago, and the Klein's microfilm records disappeared while in FBI custody.

[David Lifton]

William Waldman of Klein's admitted forthrightly that he could not "specifically say when this money order was deposited". Quoting from Waldman's WC testimony:

Mr. WALDMAN. Now, we cannot specifically say when this money order was deposited, but on our deposit of March 13, 1963, we show an item of $21.45, as indicated on the Xerox copy of our deposit slip marked, or identified by--as Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 10.

Mr. BELIN. And I have just marked as a document what you are reading from, which appears to be a deposit with the First National Bank of Chicago by your company; is that correct?

Mr. WALDMAN. That's correct.

Mr. BELIN. And on that deposit, one of the items is $21.45, out of a total deposit that day of $13,827.98; is that correct?

Mr. WALDMAN. That's correct.

----------------------

But regardless of WHEN exactly Oswald's $21.45 money order was deposited by Klein's into their First National Bank account, it definitely WAS deposited, without doubt, unless the CTers want to believe that the stamped "Klein's Sporting Goods, Inc." endorsement on the back of the money order is phony and was merely stamped on there at a later date after the assassination, which is pure guesswork and (very silly) speculation.

Such sheer speculation is not too silly for conspiracy theorists like James DiEugenio, of course, because Jimbo thinks the whole money order itself is phony, right down to Lee Oswald's VERIFIED HANDWRITING on the "phony" money order.

William Waldman even stamped a WC exhibit (Waldman Exhibit No. 9) with the Klein's stamp/endorsement, and it matches perfectly with the stamp seen on the back of CE788 (Oswald's money order):

THE MONEY ORDER CONTAINED NO STAMP ON IT FROM ANY FINANCIAL INSTITUTION. THE ONLY STAMP ON IT WAS KLEIN'S OWN STAMP FOR DEPOSIT.

http://i56.tinypic.com/20aqrl2.jpg

Mr. BELIN. I hand you what has been marked as Commission Exhibit No. 788, which appears to be a U.S. postal money order payable to the order of Klein's Sporting Goods.....And on the reverse side there appears to be an endorsement of a bank. I wonder if you would read that endorsement, if you would, and examine it, please.

Mr. WALDMAN. This is a stamped endorsement reading "Pay to the order of the First National Bank of Chicago," followed by our account No. 50 space 91144, and that, in turn, followed by "Klein's Sporting Goods, Inc."

Mr. BELIN. Do you know whether or not that is your company's endorsement on that money order?

Mr. WALDMAN. It's identical to our endorsement.

Mr. BELIN. And I hand you what has been marked as Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 9 and ask you if you can state what this is.

Mr. WALDMAN. This is our endorsement stamp which reads the same as that shown on the money order in question.

Mr. BELIN. You have just now stamped Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 9 with your endorsement stamp?

Mr. WALDMAN. Correct.

( 7 H 367 )

http://i53.tinypic.com/15oieq1.jpg

The only endorsement on that money order was the stamp of Klein's Sporting Goods. The money order was never paid by any financial institution.

DSL COMMENT: I printed out the exhibit and showed it to a CPA. The CPA noted that the money order was stamped, on the back, "Paid" (lower right) with what appears to be a stamp of the U.S. Post Office (in Dallas?) Would that not mean that the money order went back to the Dallas Post Office where it originated, and was then paid? Please explain.

I would feel more comfortable with this entire line of argument if it could be shown how other USPS money orders looked, after they went through "the system." (Do they normally have other bank endorsements, or Federal Reserve bank markings?)

One other thing: I distinctly recall--in the Gemberling documents--FBI reports from the Chicago agents who woke up Waldman in the wee hours of Saturday morning, 11/23, and proceeded to access the various microfilm records. It would be helpful to get those reports and see what they say. As I recall, there was a problem with the FBI and SS agents interfering with one another (but I'm doing this from memory).

There are not that many pages involved, and I'd like to see someone gather and post those pages.

DSL; 3/18/11; 1:40 PM PDT

Los Angeles, CA

Edited March 18, 2011 by David Lifton

[David Von Pein]

To David Lifton,

Your CPA misread the back of the money order. And it's a rather interesting misreading of the stamp, because it does kind of appear that the word "Paid" shows up on the back. But that is merely the "Mar. 12" stamp that is bleeding through to the other side of the money order. The "Mar." in reverse looks sort of like the word "paid".

[David Lifton]

The money order was allegedly purchased on March 12th.

It then went to Chicago and was supposedly deposited there on the 13th.

Evidently Lifton did not point this out to the accountant.

In Armstrong's book, he points out this rather odd stamp. (p. 448)

My own observation is that its weird for a rubber stamp to bleed through so much like that.

As per the stamps that should be on the M.. O., WIlmouth testified to what should be there as it tracked through the system, and ended up in Kansas CIty--not Alexandria.

Because of the multiple threads on this one topic, I have been unable to locate the post I made several days ago; and so I do not know where the post (of mine) that DiEugenio is commenting on is located.

Anyway, and moving on past that point of confusion. . . :

Having read many posts on this particular thread, I am still unclear on what processing stamps are supposed to be on a U.S. Postal money order in March, 1963. Consequently, before drawing any conclusions on this subject, I'd like to see one or more money orders from the year 1963 to see just what stamps exist on the back of them. They don't have to be money orders for a rifle--they can be for pots and pans, for for a water sprinkler system. Isn't there some way to find actual samples and to see what stamps they bear?

The CPA I showed the money order to noted that it was stamped, on the back, "Paid" and the stamp appeared to be that of the Dallas Post Office. DiEugenio comments on that, and cites page 448 of Armstrong. Not having Armstrong's book immediately at hand, I do not know what is "odd" about the stamp, that is cited on page 448. He also notes that its "weird" for a stamp to "bleed through" like that. All very well, but that's not good enough. There's the stamp, and it says "paid". (So. . .am I misreading the evidence? Please explain.)

Finally, I pointed out--in the post I am unable to locate--that there are detailed FBI reports (and possibly a Secret Service report) filed by the agents who conducted the "money order investigation" and reporting on how Waldman was contacted in the wee hours of 11/23/63, and how the agents began examining the various reels of microfilm, finally locating the Hidell order (not the US Postal Money order, but the microfilmed record of the rifle order) on a particular reel of microfilm.

Viewing this from a slightly different perspective (and speaking as one who is sympathetic to the notion that Oswald was set up): I don't understand why it would be so complicated to get Oswald to order a gun. I've always thought the significant issue was that he ordered a gun that was 36" in length, but the "found rifle" was 40". Obviously, he possessed a rifle. Marina said that to the FBI from very early on--she certainly repeated it to me (in the many conversations we had when we started to speak with one another after Best Evidence was published, in January, 1981, and in our detailed 1990 filmed interview; and she said the same thing to Jesse Ventura (off camera) in the recent show. An interesting point, noted decades ago by Peter Dale Scott, is that in the initial interview (with the Secret Service--which is CD 344, as I recall), she indicated that the rifle that LHO had was not one with a scope--in fact, that she didn't know rifles had "telescopes" until she was confronted with the rifle shown her by the DPD on 11/22/63. (See the original Secret Service interview, CD 344).

I don't suppose that anyone reading this thread doubts that Oswald had "a" rifle--I gather that the issue is whether the mail order documentation for this particular rifle is legitimate.

Now nothing I have mentioned doesn't preclude the possibility that there is something wrong with the paper trail, but I'd like to see some "money order" exemplars from 1963.

Which brings me to another thought: if the microfilm exists, and it is (or was) in the FBI's possession, might it not be possible to retrieve that roll of microfilm (from the FBI, or from the JFK Records Collection) examine it, and see what processing stamps other money orders (on that microfilm) bear? Or did the FBI simply copy one frame of the microfilm (that doesn't seem reasonable; but perhaps that is what happened. I just do not know.)

DSL

3/20/11; 5 AM PDT

Edited March 20, 2011 by David Lifton

[Greg Parker]

The money order was allegedly purchased on March 12th.

It then went to Chicago and was supposedly deposited there on the 13th.

Evidently Lifton did not point this out to the accountant.

In Armstrong's book, he points out this rather odd stamp. (p. 448)

My own observation is that its weird for a rubber stamp to bleed through so much like that.

As per the stamps that should be on the M.. O., WIlmouth testified to what should be there as it tracked through the system, and ended up in Kansas CIty--not Alexandria.

Because of the multiple threads on this one topic, I have been unable to locate the post I made several days ago; and so I do not know where the post (of mine) that DiEugenio is commenting on is located.

Anyway, and moving on past that point of confusion. . . :

Having read many posts on this particular thread, I am still unclear on what processing stamps are supposed to be on a U.S. Postal money order in March, 1963. Consequently, before drawing any conclusions on this subject, I'd like to see one or more money orders from the year 1963 to see just what stamps exist on the back of them. They don't have to be money orders for a rifle--they can be for pots and pans, for for a water sprinkler system. Isn't there some way to find actual samples and to see what stamps they bear?

The CPA I showed the money order to noted that it was stamped, on the back, "Paid" and the stamp appeared to be that of the Dallas Post Office. DiEugenio comments on that, and cites page 448 of Armstrong. Not having Armstrong's book immediately at hand, I do not know what is "odd" about the stamp, that is cited on page 448. He also notes that its "weird" for a stamp to "bleed through" like that. All very well, but that's not good enough. There's the stamp, and it says "paid". (So. . .am I misreading the evidence? Please explain.)

Finally, I pointed out--in the post I am unable to locate--that there are detailed FBI reports (and possibly a Secret Service report) filed by the agents who conducted the "money order investigation" and reporting on how Waldman was contacted in the wee hours of 11/23/63, and how the agents began examining the various reels of microfilm, finally locating the Hidell order (not the US Postal Money order, but the microfilmed record of the rifle order) on a particular reel of microfilm.

Viewing this from a slightly different perspective (and speaking as one who is sympathetic to the notion that Oswald was set up): I don't understand why it would be so complicated to get Oswald to order a gun. I've always thought the significant issue was that he ordered a gun that was 36" in length, but the "found rifle" was 40". Obviously, he possessed a rifle. Marina said that to the FBI from very early on--she certainly repeated it to me in our detailed 1990 filmed interview; and she said the same thing to Jesse Ventura (off camera) in the recent show. An interesting point, noted decades ago by Peter Dale Scott, is that in the initial interview, she indicated that the rifle that LHO had was not one with a scope--in fact, that she didn't know rifles had "telescopes" until she was confronted with the rifle shown her by the DPD on 11/22/63. (See the original Secret Service interview, CD 344, as I recall).

I don't suppose that anyone reading this thread doubts that Oswald had "a" rifle--I gather that the issue is whether the mail order documentation for this particular rifle is legitimate.

Now nothing I have mentioned doesn't preclude the possibility that there is something wrong with the paper trail, but I'd like to see some "money order" exemplars from 1963.

Which brings me to another thought: if the microfilm exists, and it is (or was) in the FBI's possession, might it not be possible to retrieve that roll of microfilm (from the FBI, or from the JFK Records Collection) examine it, and see what processing stamps other money orders (on that microfilm) bear? Or did the FBI simply copy one frame of the microfilm (that doesn't seem reasonable; but perhaps that is what happened. I just do not know.)

DSL

3/20/11; 5 AM PDT

Try looking on the previous page. It does not say "paid".

And I do not believe he had possession of any weapons.

[David Von Pein]

And I do not believe he [LHO] had possession of any weapons.

Even though he had a pistol in his hands when he was arrested in the Texas Theater.

And yet conspiracy theorists talk about LNers being in "denial" about the evidence. E-gads, how ridiculous can you get? You're actually going to try and take that gun out of Oswald's hands in the theater too?

The current state of affairs on several of the JFK discussion boards has reached almost epic proportions in the category of "Let's deny the legitimacy of all of the evidence and just say it's ALL fake, including the pistol Lee Harvey Oswald had in his hands when he was apprehended, which is a gun that was seen by civilian witness Johnny Brewer".

Unbelievable.

Edited March 20, 2011 by David Von Pein