John Simkin Posted February 22, 2013 Share Posted February 22, 2013 When LBJ arrived back in Washington after being sworn in as president on Air Force One, he asked his driver to stop off at a friend's home, before going to the White House. It has been claimed that this was a significant visit and reflected something about his state of mind. Does anyone know who he visited? Do you know why the man did not speak to him? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Andrews Posted February 23, 2013 Share Posted February 23, 2013 Abe Fortas? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Simkin Posted February 23, 2013 Author Share Posted February 23, 2013 Abe Fortas? He was much more important to his career than Abe Fortas. The clue is in the fact that he did not talk to LBJ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Dolva Posted February 23, 2013 Share Posted February 23, 2013 Who said he didn't talk to LBJ? LBJ or whoever, both or an intermediary? (i've no idea who you're talking about btw, guess Hoover?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Andrews Posted February 23, 2013 Share Posted February 23, 2013 (edited) The maddening part is that I have read this story before, and forgotten it, as the source (for me, perhaps Robert Dallek) didn't take opportunity to comment on the snub. Harry Truman? John J. McCloy? Cartha DeLoach? John McCone? Billy Graham? Edited February 23, 2013 by David Andrews Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Robert Morrow Posted February 23, 2013 Share Posted February 23, 2013 (edited) The maddening part is that I have read this story before, and forgotten it, as the source (for me, perhaps Robert Dallek) didn't take opportunity to comment on the snub. Harry Truman? John J. McCloy? Cartha DeLoach? John McCone? Billy Graham? That is the maddening part for me, too, I read something about this, but can't retrieve the file. I believe LBJ got back to his home The Elms about 10PM that night and Horace Busby's wife Mary V. gave him a kiss. And where he was earlier, he was probably telling someone we are going with the lone nutter scenario and blaming it all on Oswald. I would have guessed Abe Fortas (to discuss the Bobby Baker scandal threatening to bring him down), or J. Edgar Hoover (to discuss a lone nutter scenaio). Cartha DeLoach (still alive today and who was personally closer to LBJ than even Hoover) would have seen LBJ in a heartbeat if Johnson had wanted to see him. Edited February 23, 2013 by Robert Morrow Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Kingsbury Posted February 23, 2013 Share Posted February 23, 2013 (edited) Who said he didn't talk to LBJ? LBJ or whoever, both or an intermediary? (i've no idea who you're talking about btw, guess Hoover?) Maybe LBJ spoke to Hoover on the "official" phone.We get to read some of that "were they shooting at me?" Then Hoover can say he "Officially " spoke with the president. They were close neighbours!. Hoover had taken the hint "one man 3shots" that's what Johnson wanted to hear overtly. Johnson was a supreme manipulator but this was beyond him intellectually He gets Warren despite a battle did LBJ have access to what Warren did in Mexico Years before?. The power to move from the justice dept or congressional hearing To LBJ's sack of elected goons Was the key to the coup , even 3 of the panel eventually saw the Writing on the wall "Oswald did it ......OK!." And shrank back. Edited February 23, 2013 by Ian Kingsbury Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
William Kelly Posted February 23, 2013 Share Posted February 23, 2013 John, How do you know this? That he visited someone and that the someone wouldn't talk to him? Also, it did not occur between Andrews and White House because LBJ flew there by helicopter and did not enter a car until after leaving the EOB, so it must have occurred after he left the EOB and not before he got there. There is a very big gap in the post-assassination LBJ chronology, but it occurs AFTER LBJ leaves the EOB, and not before they got there, as I have detailed in this article: JFKcountercoup: The Tipping Point I think it is pretty well established from all accounts that LBJ took a helicopter from Andrews to the White House lawn, with Jack Valenti and a few other aides, walked directly to the Executive Office Building (EOB) next to the White House where in his office he received a few visitors. Then, for about an hour, LBJ was secreted behind a closed door with Carter and Jenkins making telephone calls to Texas authorities. The calls were made to get them to file murder charges against Oswald alone, and not as part of a communist conspiracy, as rumor had it - a rumor started by Joseph Goulden and ADA Alexander. This was when they decided to go with the Lone Nut scenario rather than Cuban Commie, as originally planned. According to most sources, after they emerged from behind the closed door, they left the EOB at 9:27 PM for LBJ's residence, the Elms, a five minute ride, but don't arrive there until 10:59 PM - both official times, leaving a gap of over an hour. An unofficial chronological timeline however, indicates: 9:27 PM – LBJ leaves EOB for Elms 4040 52nd St. (per Valenti) 10:40 PM – According to Vincent Bugliosi, (Reclaiming History, p. 178), at 10:40 PM, LBJ had still not arrived. 10:59 – LBJ Arrives at Elms. SS Agent Paul Rundle – briefs him on arrival. Where was LBJ from 9:27 PM until 19:58 PM? Who did he visit? Did he pick up anyone? What does Caro have to say about this time period? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
William Kelly Posted February 23, 2013 Share Posted February 23, 2013 Who said he didn't talk to LBJ? LBJ or whoever, both or an intermediary? (i've no idea who you're talking about btw, guess Hoover?) Maybe LBJ spoke to Hoover on the "official" phone.We get to read some of that "were they shooting at me?" Then Hoover can say he "Officially " spoke with the president. They were close neighbours!. Ian, LBJ and Hoover were neighbors for some time, with backyards that were joined by a fence with a gate so they could visit each other. But by 1963 LBJ had moved to the Elms, in Spring Valley, a different neighborhood. LBJ was, as Blaine recalls, walking around the backyard at 2-3 am in the morning and was possibly visiting a neighbor, as he had done with Hoover. But who were LBJ's neighbors when he lived at the Elms in Spring Valley? Also, at 5 PM on Friday, Nov. 22, 1963 JEHoover left his office as he did every day and reportedly went to his home where he stayed throughout the evening. BK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
William Kelly Posted February 23, 2013 Share Posted February 23, 2013 John, How do you know this? That he visited someone and that the someone wouldn't talk to him? Also, it did not occur between Andrews and White House because LBJ flew there by helicopter and did not enter a car until after leaving the EOB, so it must have occurred after he left the EOB and not before he got there. There is a very big gap in the post-assassination LBJ chronology, but it occurs AFTER LBJ leaves the EOB, and not before they got there, as I have detailed in this article: JFKcountercoup: The Tipping Point I think it is pretty well established from all accounts that LBJ took a helicopter from Andrews to the White House lawn, with Jack Valenti and a few other aides, walked directly to the Executive Office Building (EOB) next to the White House where in his office he received a few visitors. Then, for about an hour, LBJ was secreted behind a closed door with Carter and Jenkins making telephone calls to Texas authorities. The calls were made to get them to file murder charges against Oswald alone, and not as part of a communist conspiracy, as rumor had it - a rumor started by Joseph Goulden and ADA Alexander. This was when they decided to go with the Lone Nut scenario rather than Cuban Commie, as originally planned. According to most sources, after they emerged from behind the closed door, they left the EOB at 9:27 PM for LBJ's residence, the Elms, a five minute ride, but don't arrive there until 10:59 PM - both official times, leaving a gap of over an hour. An unofficial chronological timeline however, indicates: 9:27 PM – LBJ leaves EOB for Elms 4040 52nd St. (per Valenti) 10:40 PM – According to Vincent Bugliosi, (Reclaiming History, p. 178), at 10:40 PM, LBJ had still not arrived. 10:59 – LBJ Arrives at Elms. SS Agent Paul Rundle – briefs him on arrival. Where was LBJ from 9:27 PM until 19:58 PM? Who did he visit? Did he pick up anyone? What does Caro have to say about this time period? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
William Kelly Posted February 23, 2013 Share Posted February 23, 2013 (edited) John Simkin wrote: When LBJ arrived back in Washington after being sworn in as president on Air Force One, he asked his driver to stop off at a friend's home, before going to the White House. It has been claimed that this was a significant visit and reflected something about his state of mind. Does anyone know who he visited? Do you know why the man did not speak to him? John, How do you know this? That he visited someone and that the someone wouldn't talk to him? Also, it did not occur between Andrews and White House because LBJ flew there by helicopter and did not enter a car until after leaving the EOB, so it must have occurred after he left the EOB and not before he got there. There is a very big gap in the post-assassination LBJ chronology, but it occurs AFTER LBJ leaves the EOB, and not before they got there, as I have detailed in this article: JFKcountercoup: The Tipping Point I think it is pretty well established from all accounts that LBJ took a helicopter from Andrews to the White House lawn, with Jack Valenti and a few other aides, walked directly to the Executive Office Building (EOB) next to the White House where in his office he received a few visitors. Then, for about an hour, LBJ was secreted behind a closed door with Carter and Jenkins making telephone calls to Texas authorities. The calls were made to get them to file murder charges against Oswald alone, and not as part of a communist conspiracy, as rumor had it - a rumor started by Joseph Goulden and ADA Alexander. This was when they decided to go with the Lone Nut scenario rather than Cuban Commie, as originally planned. According to most sources, after they emerged from behind the closed door, they left the EOB at 9:27 PM for LBJ's residence, the Elms, a five minute ride, but don't arrive there until 10:59 PM - both official times, leaving a gap of over an hour. An unofficial chronological timeline however, indicates: 9:27 PM – LBJ leaves EOB for Elms 4040 52nd St. (per Valenti) 10:40 PM – According to Vincent Bugliosi, (Reclaiming History, p. 178), at 10:40 PM, LBJ had still not arrived. 10:59 – LBJ Arrives at Elms. SS Agent Paul Rundle – briefs him on arrival. Where was LBJ from 9:27 PM until 19:58 PM? Who did he visit? Did he pick up anyone? What does Caro have to say about this time period? Edited February 23, 2013 by William Kelly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Robert Morrow Posted February 23, 2013 Share Posted February 23, 2013 "LBJ was, as Blaine recalls, walking around the backyard at 2-3 am in the morning and was possibly visiting a neighbor, as he had done with Hoover. But who were LBJ's neighbors when he lived at the Elms in Spring Valley?" LBJ was probably going outside to urinate. Yes, obviously the Elms had toilets, but that is something LBJ would do. Then SS agent Gerald Blaine almost shot him, thinking LBJ was an intruder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
William Kelly Posted February 23, 2013 Share Posted February 23, 2013 "LBJ was, as Blaine recalls, walking around the backyard at 2-3 am in the morning and was possibly visiting a neighbor, as he had done with Hoover. But who were LBJ's neighbors when he lived at the Elms in Spring Valley?" LBJ was probably going outside to urinate. Yes, obviously the Elms had toilets, but that is something LBJ would do. Then SS agent Gerald Blaine almost shot him, thinking LBJ was an intruder. He urinated on Secret Service agents, and when they called attention to it, he said it was his prerogative BK. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
William Kelly Posted February 23, 2013 Share Posted February 23, 2013 John Simkin wrote: When LBJ arrived back in Washington after being sworn in as president on Air Force One, he asked his driver to stop off at a friend's home, before going to the White House. It has been claimed that this was a significant visit and reflected something about his state of mind. Does anyone know who he visited? Do you know why the man did not speak to him? John, How do you know this? That he visited someone and that the someone wouldn't talk to him? Also, it did not occur between Andrews and White House because LBJ flew there by helicopter and did not enter a car until after leaving the EOB, so it must have occurred after he left the EOB and not before he got there. There is a very big gap in the post-assassination LBJ chronology, but it occurs AFTER LBJ leaves the EOB, and not before they got there, as I have detailed in this article: JFKcountercoup: The Tipping Point I think it is pretty well established from all accounts that LBJ took a helicopter from Andrews to the White House lawn, with Jack Valenti and a few other aides, walked directly to the Executive Office Building (EOB) next to the White House where in his office he received a few visitors. Then, for about an hour, LBJ was secreted behind a closed door with Carter and Jenkins making telephone calls to Texas authorities. The calls were made to get them to file murder charges against Oswald alone, and not as part of a communist conspiracy, as rumor had it - a rumor started by Joseph Goulden and ADA Alexander. This was when they decided to go with the Lone Nut scenario rather than Cuban Commie, as originally planned. According to most sources, after they emerged from behind the closed door, they left the EOB at 9:27 PM for LBJ's residence, the Elms, a five minute ride, but don't arrive there until 10:59 PM - both official times, leaving a gap of over an hour. An unofficial chronological timeline however, indicates: 9:27 PM – LBJ leaves EOB for Elms 4040 52nd St. (per Valenti) 10:40 PM – According to Vincent Bugliosi, (Reclaiming History, p. 178), at 10:40 PM, LBJ had still not arrived. 10:59 – LBJ Arrives at Elms. SS Agent Paul Rundle – briefs him on arrival. Where was LBJ from 9:27 PM until 19:58 PM? Who did he visit? Did he pick up anyone? What does Caro have to say about this time period? Does anyone have Caro's most recent book? What does it say about what LBJ did after leaving EOB and before arriving at Elms? Thanks, BK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Robert Morrow Posted February 23, 2013 Share Posted February 23, 2013 (edited) Caro's "Passage of Power" - page 370. LBJ orders Valenti to get in the presidential car and says he can stay/sleep over at his house at The Elms. The time is 9:24 PM. And the next scene is LBJ arriving at the The Elms (his house). Whatever LBJ did or where he went from 9:24 PM Eastern until whatever time he got to The Elms is not covered by Caro. "10:40 PM – According to Vincent Bugliosi, (Reclaiming History, p. 178), at 10:40 PM, LBJ had still not arrived. 10:59 – LBJ Arrives at Elms. SS Agent Paul Rundle – briefs him on arrival." - William Kelly Also, I did a Google Map of the distance from the White House (The White House, Pennsylvania Avenue Northwest, Washington, DC) to 52nd St. Northwest, Washington, DC (the street the The Elms located on). The distance was 5.8 miles and 21 minutes in average traffic. I think with a police escort post JFK assassination that time would be 15-18 minutes. Map link: https://maps.google....ps?hl=en&tab=wl So if LBJ left the White House at 9:27 PM (according to Valenti), he should have gotten to the Elms by 9:47PM no problem. But he was not there. So where was he, he was he talking to and what was he doing? Caro mentions on p. 370 that LBJ called his very close aide Horace Busby and offered to pick him up on the way to the The Elms; Busby declined and said he would drive his own car over to The Elms. Busby was like an alter ego to LBJ, someone who LBJ considered very much like himself. Edited February 23, 2013 by Robert Morrow Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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