Oswald Leaving TSBD?

[Robin Unger]

Yes, hard to say.

Sarah Stanton could be the woman seen in Darnell.

I seem to recall one of them stating that she was in the last row on the steps close to the glass.?

need to check Stanton and Sander's statements again.

[Guest]

Guys..... please stop.

Brian Doyle is foaming uncontrolably at his mouth as we speak. 😂

 

[Guest]

Sanders, last line of spectators nearest the door.

Top step east side of the entrance.

Edited November 18, 2017 by Bart Kamp

[Guest]

Sarah Stanton

On the front steps

 

Again on the front steps.

That by itself is interesting as she does not make any mention of "top" and/or "landing"

[Andrej Stancak]

I have made some analyses as to the body height of the person standing in the east part of the top landing. I have fitted the 3D model (a third-generation model based on measured dimensions of the doorway; the depth of the doorway was set to 115 cm (45'') in this analysis). A manikin of woman sized 5' - 5'6'' was matched to the human figure of interest in iterative steps to reach the minimum disparity between the model and the person seen in Darnell's still. The figures below show the best solution with a minimum disparity between the manikin and the figure in Darnell's still, overlayed with a factor of 90%, 80%, 70% and 50%. The higher the factor, the less of the 3D model is seen in the overlay.

[Andrej Stancak]

After matching the manikin and the unknown human figure in Darnell's still, I measured the body height of the person by attaching a yardstick to manikin's body. The inches above 5' are depicted as "teeth" in the orange strip (the 6th foot). The person was about  5'3''  tall. 

 

The next two pictures illustrate the distance between Mr. Frazier and the unknown person.

 

 

 

The body height of this person would match the average body height of a woman in 1963 born in the 20th of the last century. Based on witness testimonies, Billy Lovelady's description of Mrs. Stanton, and the proximity to Buell Frazier, it is very likely that this person was Mrs. Sarah Stanton.

 

Edited November 18, 2017 by Andrej Stancak

[Robin Unger]

As shown in the Testimony posted by Bart.

Sanders, places herself in the last line of spectators nearest the door.

Stanton , places herself on the front steps.

given that i would still have to say that the woman seen in Darnell is most likely Pauline Sanders.

Edited November 19, 2017 by Robin Unger

[Robin Unger]

Nice job with the computer graphics Andrej

Edited November 19, 2017 by Robin Unger

[Robin Unger]

Edited November 19, 2017 by Robin Unger

[Andrej Stancak]

Robin:

would you agree that if the other lady standing on the top landing was taller than the lady we are discussing then the shorter of the two ladies would be Mrs. Sarah Stanton? It appears that we need to find the other lady to be able to decide on the identity of this one.

The 3D model is in the last stage of its development although still not completed yet. I am not sure about the exact depth of the doorway, however, the interval of possible doorway depths is already quite narrow: 41.5' - 45''  which is only about 10 cm in the metric system. The shorter the interval is, the more difficult it becomes to decide.  

Let me summarise the observations speaking in favor of Mrs. Stanton to be the person of interest:

1. The person of interest is a white Caucasian.

2. The person is not seen to be ascending in the earlier part of Darnell film and therefore this person was most likely standing on the top landing seconds or minutes earlier.

3. The person seems to be in shadow which means that s/he was standing very close (maybe touching?) the glass window.

4. The height of the person is about 5'3'' or 63''. The average body height of a woman at their fortieth in 1963 was 63.2'' with the standard error of the mean of 0.1'' .  This data can be read from the National Health Examination Surveys published in  https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/ad/ad347.pdf  ,  Table 8. 

5. The person of this height could only be a woman because men's body height values were 5'' larger than those of women. The 95% confidence interval of body heights in men (aged 40-49) in 1963 was 68.1-68.5. Thus, with a probability nearing certainty this person could not be a man.

6. In contrast, the height of this person would be close to the 95% confidence interval for women, 63'0 - 63''4'. The lady we see in Darnell's still ( about 63'') would be close to the lower confidence level (63.0'') or just below it. 

7. The body height of this lady would be appropriate to match Billy Lovelady's description of Sarah Stanton as "heavy set and short" lady.

8. This woman stood close to the glass windows and since she was short, she would not be seen in films or pictures while standing nearer to the centre of the doorway. She would be obfuscated by the figures of taller people than herself, Bill Shelley and Billy Lovelady, who stood close to her but in front of her. 

9. The presence of Mr. Stanton on the top landing fits with the testimonies of Pauline Sanders, Bill Shelley and Billy Lovelady, and with interviews given by Mr. Frazier.

This lady would not be seen in Darnell did she remain at the spot closer to the centre of the doorway.  We see her in one of the late Darnell frames because she moved from the more central spot to the east, possibly to be able to see the Tripple Underpass and grassy knoll area. Therefore, it was possible for Mr. Frazier to talk to Mrs. Stanton about the shots when shots rang out (she was standing closer to him than in the Darnell' still) and to move about one step to the east later to be able to see more of the scene of interest which was  the grassy knoll- Tripple Underpass area. The late part of Darnell's film would be shot about 40 seconds after the last shot giving plenty of time for Mrs. Stanton to move about 2 feet eastwards from her previous location at the centre of the doorway. 

 

Edited November 19, 2017 by Andrej Stancak

[Robin Unger]

quote: 9. The presence of Mr. Stanton on the top landing fits with the testimonies of Pauline Sanders, Bill Shelley and Billy Lovelady, and with interviews given by Mr. Frazier.

Andrej , is it possible to post the relevant parts of these testimonies into one single post, so that it is easy to read them at a glance.

The parts in question i am referring  too, are any sections where it places Sarah Stanton on the top landing, and not down on the steps ?

[Andrej Stancak]

 

Robin:

This is what I was able to collate thus far. Shelley's and Sanders's statements are the strongest to point to Stanton's presence on the top landing.

William Shelley testimony for the Warren Commission:

Mr. BALL - Why did you go to the front?
Mr. SHELLEY - Oh, several people were out there waiting to watch the motorcade and I went out to join them.
Mr. BALL - And who was out there?
Mr. SHELLEY - Well, there was Lloyd Viles of McGraw-Hill, Sarah Stanton, she's with Texas School Book, and Wesley Frazier and Billy Lovelady joined us shortly afterwards.
Mr. BALL - You were standing where?
Mr. SHELLEY - Just outside the glass doors there.
Mr. BALL - That would be on the top landing of the entrance? 
Mr. SHELLEY - yes.

Pauline Sanders, FBI report,  3/19/1964:

… I took up a position at the top of the front steps of the Depository building facing Elm Street. To the best of my recollection, I was standing on the top step at the east end of the entrance. I recall that while standing there I noticed Mrs. Sarah Stanton standing next to me, but I am unsure as to the others. Mrs. Stanton is likewise an employee of the Texas School Book Depository…

Pauline Sanders, FBI report, 11/24/1963

“She said she did not see OSWALD during this time and she stood in the last line of spectators nearest the door to the Texas School Book Depository building.”

[AS: if Pauline Sanders stood nearest to the door and Sarah Stanton stood next to her, then Stanton also stood on the top landing.]

 Buell Wesley Frazier, interview for the Sixth Floor Museum, August 27, 2013, 33’50’’:

Mr. Fagin: In the chaos that followed the shooting, did you see Oswald at all?
Mr. Frazier: I did. This was all... I do not know exactly how many minutes later, but the lady I was standing next to. Some of the people, Bill Shelley and Mr. Billy Lovelady, they went down towards the Triple Underpass because before they went down there, a lady come by, a woman came by, and she was crying and she said "Somebody has shot the President". And so we looked bewildered. And I turned to Sarah: she said "She said somebody shot the President", I said I doubt that's what she said. She said that she did say that. So we stood there for a few minutes, and, and I walked down to the first step, where Billy was standing down there, by myself so I looked around. And it was just total chaos there. And then from there I started to go down to see if I could find Bill Shelley and Billy Lovelady, there was so much chaos down there. I said, well, I better go back to work, go back to the steps, so now, and I did, I walked back to the bottom of the steps, and then I walked out to the corner of the building right there where Houston comes up  beside the building. And I was talking to someone, it  was a lady, and I looked to my left, and come walking along the side of the Texas School Book  building was Lee Oswald.

 

Billy Lovelady, Warren Commission testimony:

Mr. LOVELADY - That's on the second floor; so, I started going to the domino room where I generally went in to set down and eat and nobody was there and I happened to look on the outside and Mr. Shelley was standing outside with Miss Sarah Stanton, I believe her name is, and I said, "Well, I'll go out there and talk with them, sit down and eat my lunch out there, set on the steps," so I went out there. 
Mr. BALL - You ate your lunch on the steps? 
Mr. LOVELADY - Yes, sir. 
Mr. BALL - Who was with you? 
Mr. LOVELADY - Bill Shelley and Sarah Stanton, and right behind me 
Mr. BALL - What was that last name? 
Mr. LOVELADY - Stanton. 
Mr. BALL - What is the first name? 
Mr. LOVELADY - Bill Shelley. 
Mr. BALL - And Stanton's first name? 
Mr. LOVELADY - Miss Sarah Stanton. 
Mr. BALL - Did you stay on the steps 
Mr. LOVELADY - Yes. 

Billy Lovelady, HSCS testimony, 24’50’’ , http://www.prayer-man.com/tag/hsca

Lovelady mentioned Frazier, Shelley, Stanton and some other ladies as standing on steps. Notably, Lovelady stood on the top landing at least during a part of the period when the motorcade was passing in front of the Depository. The three people he named were likely his closest neighbors on steps.

 

Edited November 19, 2017 by Andrej Stancak

[Robin Unger]

Thanks Andrej.

 

[Robin Unger]

[Andrej Stancak]

1 hour ago, Robin Unger said:

This is a useful summary of people on front steps.

 

Maybe the testimony of Joe Molina is relevant as he confirmed the presence of Mrs. Sanders in the top part of the doorway where he also stood.

Mr. BALL. Did you go out on the street to see the motorcade? 
Mr. MOLINA. Yes. I was standing on the front steps. 
Mr. BALL. With whom? 
Mr. MOLINA. Right next left of me was Mr. Williams and close to there was Mrs. Sanders. 
Mr. BALL. Pauline Sanders. 
Mr. MOLINA. Yes. 
Mr. BALL. Did you see Roy Truly? 
Mr. MOLINA. Yes; he was standing with Mr. Campbell; they were going out to lunch. 
Mr. BALL. They were in front of you were they? 
Mr. MOLINA. Yes.