Did Lee Harvey Oswald Order The Rifle? The Answer Is Yes

[Jon G. Tidd]

DVP,

If there was a conspiracy to kill JFK (that's just an assumption I ask you to make for discussion purposes), do you believe the conspirators would be sophisticated individuals?

I know you don't believe in a conspiracy. That's fine by me. I'm just asking your opinion based on a given assumption.

[Kenneth Drew]

David J.,

I plead total ignorance on the "Detective Brown" matter. I haven't the slightest idea what it's all about.

And yet you just gave a detailed account of the detective Brown situation. One you are totally ignorant of. Well, at least you're predictable.

[David Von Pein]

David J.,

I plead total ignorance on the "Detective Brown" matter. I haven't the slightest idea what it's all about.

And yet you just gave a detailed account of the detective Brown situation. One you are totally ignorant of. Well, at least you're predictable.

I was informed about it in greater detail by Gary Mack in his e-mails to me in the last two days. Haven't you been following the thread progression at all?

I knew very little about the "Detective Brown" re-creation pictures until Gary e-mailed me all kinds of excellent information yesterday and today (which I have posted in this thread). And then I looked up a couple things myself, including the KDFW videos and the Fritz testimony that I posted earlier.

That's how my "total ignorance" could be eradicated in just 48 hours.

Does that do it for you, Ken? Or is further explanation required, utilizing charts and graphs and a blackboard?

Edited June 6, 2015 by David Von Pein

[David Von Pein]

DVP,

If there was a conspiracy to kill JFK (that's just an assumption I ask you to make for discussion purposes), do you believe the conspirators would be sophisticated individuals?

I know you don't believe in a conspiracy. That's fine by me. I'm just asking your opinion based on a given assumption.

In such a situation, I would lean toward the conspirators having at least a fairly decent amount of "sophistication".

And if that had been the case, I certainly cannot envision (for even a moment) a group of plotters planning the assassination the way most Internet CTers think it was planned (and the way Oliver Stone thinks it was planned too) --- i.e., a plot that requires three gunmen to fire up to six shots at JFK while also attempting to frame a single patsy named Oswald in the TSBD. That type of pre-planning isn't something any sane plotter would have considered. It's suicide. Not to mention, just plain dumb (as well as wholly unnecessary overkill).

Edited June 6, 2015 by David Von Pein

[Kenneth Drew]

David J.,

I plead total ignorance on the "Detective Brown" matter. I haven't the slightest idea what it's all about.

And yet you just gave a detailed account of the detective Brown situation. One you are totally ignorant of. Well, at least you're predictable.

I was informed about it in greater detail by Gary Mack in his e-mails to me in the last two days. Haven't you been following the thread progression at all?

I knew very little about the "Detective Brown" re-creation pictures until Gary e-mailed me all kinds of excellent information yesterday and today (which I have posted in this thread). And then I looked up a couple things myself, including the KDFW videos and the Fritz testimony that I posted earlier.

That's how my "total ignorance" could be eradicated in just 48 hours.

Does that do it for you, Ken? Or is further explanation required, utilizing charts and graphs and a blackboard?

We know that we can't believe Gary Mack's version because you are quoting him. You know very well he won't post to defend his own changing often position, badge man and all.

Let me edit this at the request of Gary Mack: He objects to me saying his position on Badge Man has changed, he says he has been consistent: Here is his statement relative to Badge man: " I can, however, say that I think it's a photo of a gunman." I will accept that he still can say: " I can, however, say that I think it's a photo of a gunman." Thanks for the correction Gary.

Edited June 7, 2015 by Kenneth Drew

[Kenneth Drew]

David J.,

I plead total ignorance on the "Detective Brown" matter. I haven't the slightest idea what it's all about.

And yet you just gave a detailed account of the detective Brown situation. One you are totally ignorant of. Well, at least you're predictable.

I was informed about it in greater detail by Gary Mack in his e-mails to me in the last two days. Haven't you been following the thread progression at all?

I knew very little about the "Detective Brown" re-creation pictures until Gary e-mailed me all kinds of excellent information yesterday and today (which I have posted in this thread). And then I looked up a couple things myself, including the KDFW videos and the Fritz testimony that I posted earlier.

That's how my "total ignorance" could be eradicated in just 48 hours.

Does that do it for you, Ken? Or is further explanation required, utilizing charts and graphs and a blackboard?

Are you admitting that you were 100% ignorant and are now less than that? maybe only 99.8? Seems like a small insignificant move. Is there a reason Mack has to have a shill?

[Kenneth Drew]

DVP,

If there was a conspiracy to kill JFK (that's just an assumption I ask you to make for discussion purposes), do you believe the conspirators would be sophisticated individuals?

I know you don't believe in a conspiracy. That's fine by me. I'm just asking your opinion based on a given assumption.

In such a situation, I would lean toward the conspirators having at least a fairly decent amount of "sophistication".

And if that had been the case, I certainly cannot envision (for even a moment) a group of plotters planning the assassination the way most Internet CTers think it was planned (and the way Oliver Stone thinks it was planned too) --- i.e., a plot that requires three gunmen to fire up to six shots at JFK while also attempting to frame a single patsy named Oswald in the TSBD. That type of pre-planning isn't something any sane plotter would have considered. It's suicide. Not to mention, just plain dumb (as well as wholly unnecessary overkill).

So not only do you shill for the WCR, you don't know the common position of most CTer's either. " It's suicide." Are you saying you think the conspirators likely included JFK committing suicide. Hey, let's go with that. It must be in the WCR for you to think of it.

[Curtis Berkley]

Marina was coerced into going along. Once in a lie, it's hard to get out.

What, other than Marina's later recantation, and years later, suggests that she was lying?

If she was able to be coerced in the first telling, couldn't the same be equally likely in her recantation?

[Curtis Berkley]

"YES" to all of the above.

So the conspiracy now also involves Marina, the Warren Commission, and the HSCA?

Boy, that's a lot of people.

[Curtis Berkley]

David Josephs,

As I said before, I haven't the foggiest idea what the "Detective Brown" stuff is all about.

But let me once again stress the importance of the following two facts. And these are two facts that a certain number of conspiracy theorists will apparently forever label as "fake" or "phony" or "lies", but these two quotes are still going to be there for CTers to ignore until the cows come home....

"The panel detects no evidence of fakery in any of the backyard picture materials." -- HSCA Volume 6

and...

"Jack Duffy asked Marina if she had taken the backyard photos of Oswald holding the Carcano rifle. "Yes," she answered evenly, "I did"." -- Page 1487 of "Reclaiming History" by Vincent T. Bugliosi (c.2007)

And if you'd like to hear Marina herself say that she took the backyard photos, here she is doing so in this HSCA audio from September of 1978....

https://app.box.com/s/hf7yp5ctenxvgjttuq7jwtuuv57eagb7

In additional, during the same 1978 HSCA testimony, Marina Oswald made the following comments concerning Lee leaving their apartment in New Orleans during the summer of 1963 to go out to "target practice" with his rifle....

Mr. JAMES McDONALD -- "Did he ever take it out, outside the apartment, to practice with it, to do anything with it?"

Mrs. MARINA OSWALD PORTER -- "Yes, he did."

Mr. McDONALD -- "And what did he do?"

Mrs. PORTER -- "He will, like before it gets very dark outside, he would leave apartment dressed with the dark raincoat, even though it was a hot summer night, pretty hot weather anyway, and he would be wearing this, and he would be hiding the rifle underneath his raincoat. He said he is going to target practice or something like that."

Mr. McDONALD -- "This was one occasion you are talking about with the raincoat?"

Mrs. PORTER -- "It is several occasions, maybe more than once."

Mr. McDONALD -- "He did the same thing on several occasions, put the raincoat on...and the rifle under the raincoat?"

Mrs. PORTER -- "Yes."

Mr. McDONALD -- "And how long would he be gone?"

Mrs. PORTER -- "A few hours."

-------------

AUDIO VERSION OF ABOVE TESTIMONY -- https://app.box.com/s/wyh0qnvas7pkmkahcldp3omfjsxotmqq

So the conspiracy theorists who continue to insist that there is no evidence or testimony whatsoever to indicate that Lee Oswald ever practiced with his Carcano rifle in the months leading up to the assassination are just flat-out ignoring the above testimony by Marina Oswald, which can be found on Page 231 of HSCA Volume 2.

I guess LHO was supposed to be walking around outside his house with the rifle for hours, since he didn't have a car to drive anywhere

I can't understand anyone believing anything in the WCR. So many things are known to be outright lies and fabrications. Once you know the WC itself fabricated evidence then you know that the rest was very selectively chosen just to amplify their side. Such as the SBT. Everyone except DVP and his pigpen playmate are still laughing at that one.

Can you please site the "outright lies" contained in the WCR, or should your simply alleging it suffice?

And who is this "pigpen" guy?

[Robert Prudhomme]

"YES" to all of the above.

So the conspiracy now also involves Marina, the Warren Commission, and the HSCA?

Boy, that's a lot of people.

Whatever it takes, I guess.

[Kenneth Drew]

David Josephs,

As I said before, I haven't the foggiest idea what the "Detective Brown" stuff is all about.

But let me once again stress the importance of the following two facts. And these are two facts that a certain number of conspiracy theorists will apparently forever label as "fake" or "phony" or "lies", but these two quotes are still going to be there for CTers to ignore until the cows come home....

"The panel detects no evidence of fakery in any of the backyard picture materials." -- HSCA Volume 6

and...

"Jack Duffy asked Marina if she had taken the backyard photos of Oswald holding the Carcano rifle. "Yes," she answered evenly, "I did"." -- Page 1487 of "Reclaiming History" by Vincent T. Bugliosi (c.2007)

And if you'd like to hear Marina herself say that she took the backyard photos, here she is doing so in this HSCA audio from September of 1978....

https://app.box.com/s/hf7yp5ctenxvgjttuq7jwtuuv57eagb7

In additional, during the same 1978 HSCA testimony, Marina Oswald made the following comments concerning Lee leaving their apartment in New Orleans during the summer of 1963 to go out to "target practice" with his rifle....

Mr. JAMES McDONALD -- "Did he ever take it out, outside the apartment, to practice with it, to do anything with it?"

Mrs. MARINA OSWALD PORTER -- "Yes, he did."

Mr. McDONALD -- "And what did he do?"

Mrs. PORTER -- "He will, like before it gets very dark outside, he would leave apartment dressed with the dark raincoat, even though it was a hot summer night, pretty hot weather anyway, and he would be wearing this, and he would be hiding the rifle underneath his raincoat. He said he is going to target practice or something like that."

Mr. McDONALD -- "This was one occasion you are talking about with the raincoat?"

Mrs. PORTER -- "It is several occasions, maybe more than once."

Mr. McDONALD -- "He did the same thing on several occasions, put the raincoat on...and the rifle under the raincoat?"

Mrs. PORTER -- "Yes."

Mr. McDONALD -- "And how long would he be gone?"

Mrs. PORTER -- "A few hours."

-------------

AUDIO VERSION OF ABOVE TESTIMONY -- https://app.box.com/s/wyh0qnvas7pkmkahcldp3omfjsxotmqq

So the conspiracy theorists who continue to insist that there is no evidence or testimony whatsoever to indicate that Lee Oswald ever practiced with his Carcano rifle in the months leading up to the assassination are just flat-out ignoring the above testimony by Marina Oswald, which can be found on Page 231 of HSCA Volume 2.

I guess LHO was supposed to be walking around outside his house with the rifle for hours, since he didn't have a car to drive anywhere

I can't understand anyone believing anything in the WCR. So many things are known to be outright lies and fabrications. Once you know the WC itself fabricated evidence then you know that the rest was very selectively chosen just to amplify their side. Such as the SBT. Everyone except DVP and his pigpen playmate are still laughing at that one.

Can you please site the "outright lies" contained in the WCR, or should your simply alleging it suffice?

And who is this "pigpen" guy?

"Can you please site the "outright lies" contained in the WCR," If you have to ask, you haven't read any of it. Check it out.

"Pigpen guy" what do you mean?

[Ray Mitcham]

The pose of Oswald holding the rifle above his head was taken in Russia, when he was hunting. His hosts said he was a lousy shot.

E-Mail from Gary Mack......

Subject: B.G. "Bobby" Brown

Date: 6/6/2015 11:31:45 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time

From: Gary Mack

To: David Von Pein

-----------------

Ha-Ha, now Mitcham makes up a story that the BY photo of Oswald holding his rifle over his head was taken in Russia! Based on what or who?

If he'd bothered to speak with the only two people on the planet who both saw and destroyed the picture, as I did decades ago, he'd know that the picture was definitely one of the BY photos we're all familiar with.

Marguerite, especially, was very knowledgeable about the BY photos and wanted desperately to find some proof her son was innocent. But as she explained to me in the late 70s, the picture location was the same as the other BY poses. Unless, of course, Marguerite and Marina were part of the dastardly evil plotters' cabal.

Here is Oswald's 201 file [and also see the photo at the bottom of this post] with a report mentioning Brown, Fritz and others taking the re-creation pictures at 214 Neely and there's a 1992 Now It Can Be Told show in which Brown appears on camera telling what he did and why. I've got a tape of it somewhere, but maybe you have it too. Brown is the person IN the picture re-creating 133-C, so obviously he and perhaps other DPD people knew about it in 1963.

And it seems to me, in addition to a report on KDFW-TV here, there was a newspaper story about Brown and the photos, for they were a news item in the JFK movie days and the release of Dallas Police docs by the city. At the time, Brown was living in Oklahoma but he's since passed away.

Gary

I'm not interested in what Gary Mack says Marguerite told him. Perhaps I could say that she told me otherwise.

A photo showing Oswald holding the rifle above his head at Nealy Street, would be the fourth photo. That what you are you saying this is so?

Edited June 7, 2015 by Ray Mitcham

[David Josephs]

David Josephs,

As I said before, I haven't the foggiest idea what the "Detective Brown" stuff is all about.

But let me once again stress the importance of the following two facts. And these are two facts that a certain number of conspiracy theorists will apparently forever label as "fake" or "phony" or "lies", but these two quotes are still going to be there for CTers to ignore until the cows come home....

"The panel detects no evidence of fakery in any of the backyard picture materials." -- HSCA Volume 6

and...

"Jack Duffy asked Marina if she had taken the backyard photos of Oswald holding the Carcano rifle. "Yes," she answered evenly, "I did"." -- Page 1487 of "Reclaiming History" by Vincent T. Bugliosi (c.2007)

And if you'd like to hear Marina herself say that she took the backyard photos, here she is doing so in this HSCA audio from September of 1978....

https://app.box.com/s/hf7yp5ctenxvgjttuq7jwtuuv57eagb7

In additional, during the same 1978 HSCA testimony, Marina Oswald made the following comments concerning Lee leaving their apartment in New Orleans during the summer of 1963 to go out to "target practice" with his rifle....

Mr. JAMES McDONALD -- "Did he ever take it out, outside the apartment, to practice with it, to do anything with it?"

Mrs. MARINA OSWALD PORTER -- "Yes, he did."

Mr. McDONALD -- "And what did he do?"

Mrs. PORTER -- "He will, like before it gets very dark outside, he would leave apartment dressed with the dark raincoat, even though it was a hot summer night, pretty hot weather anyway, and he would be wearing this, and he would be hiding the rifle underneath his raincoat. He said he is going to target practice or something like that."

Mr. McDONALD -- "This was one occasion you are talking about with the raincoat?"

Mrs. PORTER -- "It is several occasions, maybe more than once."

Mr. McDONALD -- "He did the same thing on several occasions, put the raincoat on...and the rifle under the raincoat?"

Mrs. PORTER -- "Yes."

Mr. McDONALD -- "And how long would he be gone?"

Mrs. PORTER -- "A few hours."

-------------

AUDIO VERSION OF ABOVE TESTIMONY -- https://app.box.com/s/wyh0qnvas7pkmkahcldp3omfjsxotmqq

So the conspiracy theorists who continue to insist that there is no evidence or testimony whatsoever to indicate that Lee Oswald ever practiced with his Carcano rifle in the months leading up to the assassination are just flat-out ignoring the above testimony by Marina Oswald, which can be found on Page 231 of HSCA Volume 2.

I guess LHO was supposed to be walking around outside his house with the rifle for hours, since he didn't have a car to drive anywhere

I can't understand anyone believing anything in the WCR. So many things are known to be outright lies and fabrications. Once you know the WC itself fabricated evidence then you know that the rest was very selectively chosen just to amplify their side. Such as the SBT. Everyone except DVP and his pigpen playmate are still laughing at that one.

Can you please site the "outright lies" contained in the WCR, or should your simply alleging it suffice?

And who is this "pigpen" guy?

I'd like to address your question Curtis...

There are so many it's almost hard to narrow it down to just posting a few... but these are some of the most egregious

Here's the ryberg/ford/bullet hole composite to show how they lied about the placement of the entry wound on the back - this is an "outright lie"

Both the FBI and Secret Service place the final shot 40 feet further down Elm than the conclusions of the WCR allow.

Z313 is acknowledged as the final shot.

This is WCD298's measurements for where the limo was when each of the three shots were fired... with an inset of the location with a string back to the 6th floor... That's 40 feet past z313

Seems to me Z313 as the last shot head shot is an "outright lie" based on their investigations and results

The SS gives us this: Z313 at 4+65 is not the same as placing the last shot within 4 feet of 5+00, 35 feet down Elm.

And finally Curtis - the 12th of the conclusions of the WCR states:

12. (f) Within these limitations, however, the Commission finds

that the (SS) agents most immediately responsible for the President’s

safety reacted promptly at the time the shots were fired from the TSBD.

I would say that Greer and Kellerman are the SS agents most responsible for JFK's safety... here they are reacting "promptly" at the time of the shots.

At one if not two shots had already been fired - So Greer slows down, and turns to stare at JFK as his head is blown off

Mr. SPECTER. Were you able to see anything of President Kennedy as you glanced to the rear?

Mr. GREER. No, sir; I didn't see anything of the President, I didn't look, I wasn't far enough around to see the President.

uh, right.

[Kenneth Drew]

David Josephs,

As I said before, I haven't the foggiest idea what the "Detective Brown" stuff is all about.

But let me once again stress the importance of the following two facts. And these are two facts that a certain number of conspiracy theorists will apparently forever label as "fake" or "phony" or "lies", but these two quotes are still going to be there for CTers to ignore until the cows come home....

"The panel detects no evidence of fakery in any of the backyard picture materials." -- HSCA Volume 6

and...

"Jack Duffy asked Marina if she had taken the backyard photos of Oswald holding the Carcano rifle. "Yes," she answered evenly, "I did"." -- Page 1487 of "Reclaiming History" by Vincent T. Bugliosi (c.2007)

And if you'd like to hear Marina herself say that she took the backyard photos, here she is doing so in this HSCA audio from September of 1978....

https://app.box.com/s/hf7yp5ctenxvgjttuq7jwtuuv57eagb7

In additional, during the same 1978 HSCA testimony, Marina Oswald made the following comments concerning Lee leaving their apartment in New Orleans during the summer of 1963 to go out to "target practice" with his rifle....

Mr. JAMES McDONALD -- "Did he ever take it out, outside the apartment, to practice with it, to do anything with it?"

Mrs. MARINA OSWALD PORTER -- "Yes, he did."

Mr. McDONALD -- "And what did he do?"

Mrs. PORTER -- "He will, like before it gets very dark outside, he would leave apartment dressed with the dark raincoat, even though it was a hot summer night, pretty hot weather anyway, and he would be wearing this, and he would be hiding the rifle underneath his raincoat. He said he is going to target practice or something like that."

Mr. McDONALD -- "This was one occasion you are talking about with the raincoat?"

Mrs. PORTER -- "It is several occasions, maybe more than once."

Mr. McDONALD -- "He did the same thing on several occasions, put the raincoat on...and the rifle under the raincoat?"

Mrs. PORTER -- "Yes."

Mr. McDONALD -- "And how long would he be gone?"

Mrs. PORTER -- "A few hours."

-------------

AUDIO VERSION OF ABOVE TESTIMONY -- https://app.box.com/s/wyh0qnvas7pkmkahcldp3omfjsxotmqq

So the conspiracy theorists who continue to insist that there is no evidence or testimony whatsoever to indicate that Lee Oswald ever practiced with his Carcano rifle in the months leading up to the assassination are just flat-out ignoring the above testimony by Marina Oswald, which can be found on Page 231 of HSCA Volume 2.

I guess LHO was supposed to be walking around outside his house with the rifle for hours, since he didn't have a car to drive anywhere

I can't understand anyone believing anything in the WCR. So many things are known to be outright lies and fabrications. Once you know the WC itself fabricated evidence then you know that the rest was very selectively chosen just to amplify their side. Such as the SBT. Everyone except DVP and his pigpen playmate are still laughing at that one.

Can you please site the "outright lies" contained in the WCR, or should your simply alleging it suffice?

And who is this "pigpen" guy?

I'd like to address your question Curtis...

There are so many it's almost hard to narrow it down to just posting a few... but these are some of the most egregious

Here's the ryberg/ford/bullet hole composite to show how they lied about the placement of the entry wound on the back - this is an "outright lie"

Both the FBI and Secret Service place the final shot 40 feet further down Elm than the conclusions of the WCR allow.

Z313 is acknowledged as the final shot.

This is WCD298's measurements for where the limo was when each of the three shots were fired... with an inset of the location with a string back to the 6th floor... That's 40 feet past z313

Seems to me Z313 as the last shot head shot is an "outright lie" based on their investigations and results

The SS gives us this: Z313 at 4+65 is not the same as placing the last shot within 4 feet of 5+00, 35 feet down Elm.

And finally Curtis - the 12th of the conclusions of the WCR states:

12. (f) Within these limitations, however, the Commission finds

that the (SS) agents most immediately responsible for the President’s

safety reacted promptly at the time the shots were fired from the TSBD.

I would say that Greer and Kellerman are the SS agents most responsible for JFK's safety... here they are reacting "promptly" at the time of the shots.

At one if not two shots had already been fired - So Greer slows down, and turns to stare at JFK as his head is blown off

Mr. SPECTER. Were you able to see anything of President Kennedy as you glanced to the rear?

Mr. GREER. No, sir; I didn't see anything of the President, I didn't look, I wasn't far enough around to see the President.

uh, right.

David, those are some good comments about the 'outright lies'. The reason I think it is so useless to comment on 'outright lies' is that there is so little in the WC that is based on truth, that leaves 'almost everything' else to be commented on. One simple example, look at your discussion above about the angle of the shots from the TSBD. We all know that there is absolutely no evidence of any shot having been fired from the snipers nest, so any comments on angles are all hypothesis or just plain fabrication. Another discussion, about LHO ordering a rifle. There is clearly NO evidence that LHO ordered a rifle. Just because there was 'supposedly' evidence that LHO used the alias A HIdell, there is no proof that he actually did. But shipment of a rifle ordered by an unknown, paid for by someone with a money order mailed from somewhere that LHO did not frequent and would have been way out of the way for him to have been there during a time when the timeclock at his employers showed that he was on the job far away from the post office. And then to try to prove that the rifle, initially a Mauser, later changed to a Carcano that was not the same carcano that was in the photos that were faked as evidence that LHO really did own a Carcano by using a totally different rifle as that proof. In other words, Warren Report is a Keystone Kops Kaper in writing. They were all thumbs and got little or nothing right. I know of no Nutter that has ever proven any part of the Lone Nut scenario.