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David Von Pein

"The Money Order Wasn't Cashed" Theory Debunked

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JEAN DAVISON SAID:

"The money order wasn't cashed" debunked....

It has long been argued that since the money order for Oswald's rifle lacked a bank stamp on the back, it was never cashed. For instance here:

http://harveyandlee.net/Guns/Guns.html

Recently Brian Castle debunked that claim on the reopenkennedycase.org forum by making an observation that seems obvious now but that no one seems to have noticed before.

QUOTE:

"The scuttlebutt is that the money order was never cashed or deposited in any US bank.

However.... take a look at the money order. Here's a picture:

http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/Vol17

See the little holes in the paper? They're "punch holes", made by a "keypunch machine". In the old days, there was no ASCII and the computer people commonly used a "Hollerith code" for punch cards.

The idea is, that WHEN the money order or check is processed by the bank (or a clearing house), it's run in a BATCH along with a thousand other checks, and each batch is handled by a keypunch operator with a keypunch machine [......]"

UNQUOTE

You can read the rest here:

http://reopenkennedycase.org/about-that-money-order

Bravo, Brian Castle, well done!


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Thank you, Jean. And thank you, Brian Castle.

Edited by David Von Pein

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JEAN DAVISON SAID:

"The money order wasn't cashed" debunked....

It has long been argued that since the money order for Oswald's rifle lacked a bank stamp on the back, it was never cashed. For instance here:

http://harveyandlee.net/Guns/Guns.html

Recently Brian Castle debunked that claim on the reopenkennedycase.org forum by making an observation that seems obvious now but that no one seems to have noticed before.

QUOTE:

"The scuttlebutt is that the money order was never cashed or deposited in any US bank.

However.... take a look at the money order. Here's a picture:

http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/Vol17

See the little holes in the paper? They're "punch holes", made by a "keypunch machine". In the old days, there was no ASCII and the computer people commonly used a "Hollerith code" for punch cards.

The idea is, that WHEN the money order or check is processed by the bank (or a clearing house), it's run in a BATCH along with a thousand other checks, and each batch is handled by a keypunch operator with a keypunch machine [......]"

UNQUOTE

You can read the rest here:

http://reopenkennedycase.org/about-that-money-order

Bravo, Brian Castle, well done!

DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Thank you, Jean. And thank you, Brian Castle.

Great jumpin' Jehosaphat, David!

When I suggested you bring this new find up in the forum, I had no idea you were gonna declare outright victory -- that the Oswald money order not-being-cashed thing had been debunked! What I meant was that you should present the new evidence and let the members study it. I mean... you guys haven't even deciphered the code yet!

Well, never mind. I just think you're jumping the gun. Don't you?

Anyway, now that you've brought it up, I'll give it a go myself.

P.S. Who's Jean Davison?

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Well Jean Davison must be a "somebody" in the LN crowd. I found her post in alt.assassination.jfk and she got a reply from our pal John McAdams:

John McAdams, On 6 Nov. 2015:

Another Armstrong thing shot to hell.

David Von Pein destroyed the "mailed at a distant mailbox" thing.
David, if you are lucking, you might post the link (I'm too lazy to go
find it).

.John

David, I'd like to take a look at your "mailed at a distant mailbox" destruction page. Can you give me a link?

Edited by Sandy Larsen

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David, I'd like to take a look at your "mailed at a distant mailbox" destruction page. Can you give me a link?

JFK-Archives.blogspot.com/2012/08/the-postmark-on-commission-exhibit-773.html

P.S. Who's Jean Davison?

Oswalds-Game.blogspot.com

JFK-Archives.blogspot.com/Search Results For "Jean Davison"

Edited by David Von Pein

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"All US Postal Money orders have unique serial numbers. In the fall of 1962, Oswald purchased numerous money orders from the same downtown post office and mailed them to Washington, DC in order to repay a loan from the government for his travel expenses incurred when he returned to the USA from Russia. These money orders were purchased in numerical sequence beginning in November, 1962. These serial numbers show that some 1200 money orders per week were purchased at the downtown post office in Dallas. At this rate we see that Oswald's alleged purchase of a money order on March 12, 1963 should have been numbered 2,202,011,935. But the serial number of the money order published in the Warren Volumes was more than 118,000 numbers higher. At the rate of 1200 money order per week, this money order should have been purchased in late 1964 or early 1965. In other words, this money order could easily have been pulled from a stack of fresh, unsold money orders by a postal official in Dallas, sometime after the assassination, and then given to the FBI."

David, can you explain the above anomaly?

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Ray,

I already addressed that question of yours in this Edu. Forum thread on Oct. 28. Didn't you read it?

Here's a replay......

DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Why couldn't the Dallas post office have simply run out of their supply of blank U.S. Postal money orders shortly before Oswald purchased his M.O. on March 12th? It's fairly obvious to me that that is what happened.

Does John Armstrong really think that the Dallas post office had an unlimited supply of money orders on hand at all times? How silly.

At some point, the supply of money orders would run low and the Dallas post office would replenish its stock. And when they do get fresh stock, the serial numbers are, of course, going to be much higher than the ones they just ran out of, since they are "U.S. POSTAL MONEY ORDERS" with unique serial numbers attached to each one and are being continuously supplied to post offices and other institutions all around the entire country, not just the Main Post Office branch in Dallas, Texas.

Why on Earth is my above "Ran out of stock and simply replenished their supply with money orders that obviously would have much higher serial numbers" explanation not even to be considered by conspiracy theorists like John Armstrong?

~big shrug~

------------

More:

jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2015/10/jfk-assassination-arguments-part-1058.html

Edited by David Von Pein

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Why couldn't the Dallas post office have simply run out of their supply of blank U.S. Postal money orders shortly before Oswald purchased his M.O. on March 12th? It's fairly obvious to me that that is what happened.

Does John Armstrong really think that the Dallas post office had an unlimited supply of money orders on hand at all times? How silly.

At some point, the supply of money orders would run low and the Dallas post office would replenish its stock. And when they do get fresh stock, the serial numbers are, of course, going to be much higher than the ones they just ran out of, since they are "U.S. POSTAL MONEY ORDERS" with unique serial numbers attached to each one and are being continuously supplied to post offices and other institutions all around the entire country, not just the Main Post Office branch in Dallas, Texas.

Why on Earth is my above "Ran out of stock and simply replenished their supply with money orders that obviously would have much higher serial numbers" explanation not even to be considered by conspiracy theorists like John Armstrong?

~big shrug~

------------

More:

jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2015/10/jfk-assassination-arguments-part-1058.html

I agree with David on this one. Not that I know for sure that what he described is what happened... only that what he described could have happened. And so there is no reason to suspect foul play in this regard.

Now, if somebody were to show that all post offices across the country could not have used 118,000 money orders over the given time period, then a cloud of doubt could again be cast on this.

Rather than point to other other problems found with Oswald's purchase of the gun, I think we should stick with the topic given here. Does the code punched on the money order represent the processing of the money order at a federal reserve bank.

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Sorry, David, I missed your earlier reply. Of course, it could have happened the way you say. The operative words are "could have".

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David,

Well I hate to be the one to burst your bubble... but... here is what I found.

The rectangular holes turns out indeed to be a Hollerith code, which consists of 12 rows of holes. The hard part in decoding the holes was determining which row was X and which was 9 (the two extremes). It turns out that one row at the top has no holes, and two rows at the bottom have no holes. Once I figured that out the rest was easy. The encoded "message" begins with the rightmost hole in the above image. (Its hard to see the holes for the first two and the fourth characters, but they can easily be seen on the front side of the money order.)

Here is the decoded message:

2202130462 P -

So what is this? It's the issue number of the money order, as printed on its front side!

As for the round holes, they represent a five digit number. One of the following four, I believe:

13256

65231

86743

34768

This could be a routing number for the post office that issued the MO. It doesn't have enough digits to represent a particular account at a particular bank (account number + routing number). And it certainly doesn't have enough digits to represent a check reference number that a federal reserve bank might stamp on a check.

So the problem still stands that a Carcano rifle wasn't paid for with this money order. Nor was anything else.

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Thanks, Sandy.

My question was going to be whether the holes could have been faked.

Wasn't everything the bad guys got their grubby little mitts on faked, Jon?

LOL

--Tommy :sun

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How do you think the holes got in the money order, Sandy?

If a banking institution of some kind didn't punch those holes, then who do you think did?

And how did Oswald's writing get on the same money order if Oswald himself didn't put it there?

And do you really think Klein's would have shipped a $21-dollar rifle to somebody (Oswald/Hidell or anybody else on the planet) without having first been PAID for the item they definitely shipped to PO Box 2915 in Dallas on 3/20/63? (And Oswald didn't use "COD" for the rifle like he did for the revolver he bought from Seaport Traders.)

Edited by David Von Pein

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How do you think the holes got in the money order, Sandy?

If a banking institution of some kind didn't punch those holes, then who do you think did?

And how did Oswald's writing get on the same money order if Oswald himself didn't put it there?

And do you really think Klein's would have shipped a $21-dollar rifle to somebody (Oswald/Hidell or anybody else on the planet) without having first been PAID for the item they definitely shipped to PO Box 2915 in Dallas on 3/20/63?

David,

Maybe it was a secret code!

LOL

--Tommy :sun

Edited by Thomas Graves

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