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Jim Hargrove

John Armstrong blasts the mail order rifle “evidence”

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Jim Di,

I don't know about you, but I'd agree with DVP or Lance or anyone else if I saw documents to back up their claims.

The strength of the LN crowd lies in government and other public documents.

The strength of the CT crowd lies in government and other public documents.

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To Lance Payette:

Despite saying that you “have read only the original post in this thread and John Armstrong's latest write-up,” you also participated briefly in a 420-reply thread entitled “Yes, postal money orders do require bank endorsements” which was started by Sandy Larsen and in which he carefully proved his point. The entire thread starts here:

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=22439

Sandy's post #197 in that thread summarizes the evidence of regulations and agreements among and between the Postmaster General and Federal Reserve Banks proving that postal money orders required bank endorsements and date stamps. It can be read here:

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=22439&page=14

Back in the early to mid 1960s, and much later, postal money orders required bank endorsements. It's that simple. It doesn't matter what Wilmouth or Waldman or Belin or John Armstrong may or may not have said about the issue. Postal money orders required bank endorsements and date stamps, as is inferred by the print on the back of the form, and clearly required by regulations and agreements cited at the links above.

The “File Locator Number,” assuming for a moment that your identification and description of it is accurate, is prima facie evidence that the money order was forged. Why? Because it's presence is supposed to indicate that the money order has been fully processed in the system and has reached its final bureaucratic resting place.

But the Magic Money Order allegedly reached the end of the line without the required bank endorsements. Why? Because Dallas Postal Inspector/FBI informant Harry Holmes, or whoever created it, could fake the evidence using 1963 Postal forms and equipment, but he couldn't fake the bank stamps and internal banking records of the processing banks.

I'll be enormously surprised if this or any of our other replies alter Lance Payette's opinion in this matter, or his name calling (“certified conspiracy loon” etc.) but I would like to ask other forum members this:

Mere facsimiles of the Magic Money Order are damaging enough to the government's case. Why make the original disappear?

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Lance, are you a lawyer admitted to a state bar?

What difference does it really make, Jon? Even if Lance has no connection to the law profession whatsoever, every single thing he said in his last post still makes perfect (logical) sense. (At least to me it does.)

As for the "Zone 12" red herring....

Even if the "12" on CE773 (the envelope used by Oswald to mail his rifle order to Klein's) is a Dallas postal zone code -- and I'll admit that it could conceivably be a zone code (although as I demonstrate HERE, there's a very good chance that the "12" does not represent "Zone 12" in Dallas, Texas) -- why on Earth would that have to mean that the person who dropped that piece of mail in a mailbox must have mailed it inside "Zone 12" in Dallas?

Why couldn't an alternate possibility be that Oswald mailed it at the Main Post Office in Dallas and then the letter was moved by the Dallas Post Office employees to "Zone 12" for processing, and then the postmark was stamped on the envelope (after the mailman moved it to "Zone 12")? Why is that possibility not even considered to be remotely plausible by JFK conspiracy theorists? ~shrug~

Edited by David Von Pein

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Th example Lance used was from a time when zip codes were in use.

The other point that he uses is that LHO dropped it off with his employer, and they mailed it.

But in all likelihood, that would have been too late for the time mark.

I don't think Lance knows this whole issue in all of its complexity.

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....

Why couldn't an alternate possibility be (as Lance also suggested in his last post) that Oswald mailed it at the Main Post Office in Dallas and then the letter was moved by the Dallas Post Office employees to "Zone 12" for processing, and then the postmark was stamped on the envelope (after the mailman moved it to "Zone 12")? Why is that possibility not even considered to be remotely plausible by JFK conspiracy theorists? ~shrug~

Or perhaps an alternate alternate possibility is that Oswald never left work the morning he was supposed to have mailed the Magic Money Order to Kleins, as shown in this Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall work product from March 12, 1963:

JCS.jpg

Just sayin....

~shrug~

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It's quite possible that Oswald went to the post office on March 12th BEFORE he ever went to work at Jaggars that day. That's the most likely answer, IMO. And Gary Mack, five years ago, hinted at that possibility too....

Subject: RE: Buying the Money Order
Date: 3/12/2011 11:01:42 AM Eastern Standard Time
From: Gary Mack
To: David Von Pein


Dave,

Oswald could have left JCS [Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall] at any time between 8am and 10:30 IF there was no work for him to do. Oswald was given simple tasks as they came in, so if no orders were waiting, all he could do was sit and wait.....and get paid for doing so.

I assume he'd have to check with his supervisor about taking a few minutes to go to the post office, but his time card certainly does not confirm that he was on the job every single minute. It merely shows that he was at the office and "on the clock" all day.

And maybe, just maybe, he went over there on JCS business? Or perhaps a co-worker — his supervisor? — also needed something from the PO so Oswald went and took advantage of the opportunity? In short, there are many reasons Oswald's PO visit was entirely legitimate.

It would not surprise me to learn that the Main Post Office opened at 7am, but I don't know that to be the case. I'd have to check the 1963 directories, but I sort of remember doing that years ago. Anyway, I can take a look when I get back to the office on Monday.

Gary

------------------------------------------------

Subject: Main Post Office hours
Date: 3/17/2011 5:28:21 PM Eastern Daylight Time
From: Gary Mack
To: David Von Pein


Hi Dave,

None of the directories at the Museum show the hours at the main post office in Dallas in 1963. However, the USPS online search service shows the main distribution center today opens at 7am. But that building wasn’t there in 1963. The main post office, and presumably the distribution center, was at 400 N. Ervay in 1963 and it would likely have had the early business hours. The Ervay PO is the one that was just a few blocks from J-C-S which was located at 522 Browder. According to Google maps, the two are only 8 blocks, or ½ mile, apart.

Oswald could have walked or run, or probably ridden the bus, since Ervay was a main north-south street. For that matter, he could have bummed a ride from a co-worker.

In short, I don’t see anything that prevents Oswald from getting to the post office, then buying and sending his money order to Klein’s. As to why the envelope is postmarked in a different zone [it probably wasn't, as discussed here], I have no clue, but there’s no evidence such a practice was out of the ordinary.

Gary

http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2015/12/jfk-assassination-arguments-part-1081.html

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Sandy,

See notes in blue:

  1. The FBI has the Carcano rifle in their possession at 11:45 PM CST on Friday the 22nd, from which they get the serial number C2766.

  2. The FBI discovers from a gun dealer in Dallas that Italian surplus WW2 rifles were being distributed by Crescent Firearms in New York City. This leads the FBI to Klein's in Chicago after finding out that Crescent had sold the "C2766" rifle to Klein's. YES, THE FBI FOUND OUT IT WAS SOLD ON 6/18/62. WHY THEN DID THE FBI LATER REPORT THAT CRESCENT SOLD C2766 TO KLEINS IN JANUARY, 1963?

  3. Klein's records are searched and the "C2766" Internal Invoice is found (what would become "Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 7"), which provides pertinent information about the sale of Italian rifle No. C2766 for $21.45 to one A. Hidell of Dallas, Texas (via "M.O." [money order]) on March 20, 1963 (which is the date the FBI goes with THEN EXPLAIN WHY AN FBI MEMO, WRITTEN TO THE SECRET SERVICE, DESCRIBES A RIFLE SOLD BY KLEINS THAT WAS SIMILAR TO C2766 THAT WAS PAID FOR WITH A MONEY ORDER ISSUED ON 3/20/63, instead of the date stamped at the very top of invoice--March 13, 1963--which was the date Klein's put the Hidell order through their cash register, as William Waldman explained in his Warren Commission testimony; the March 20 date was, of course, the date the rifle was shipped to Hidell/Oswald) IT WAS ALSO THE DATE ANOTHER RIFLE WAS SOLD BY KLEINS, AND PAID FOR WITH A MONEY ORDER ISSUED ON 3/20/63..

    In addition to the internal Klein's Internal Invoice, the FBI also found on microfilm the "Order Letter" (as Curry later called it), which is CE773. The Order Letter is the order form clipped by Oswald out of the Feb. '63 American Rifleman magazine, and the envelope in which it was mailed.

    The FBI quickly determined that the writing on the Order Letter was that of Lee Harvey Oswald. YES, AND ACCORDING TO CURRY THE PRICE OF THE RIFLE WAS $12.78, NOT $21.45

    [questions: when were the invoice and order letter found? the microfilmed order letter includes the envelope it was mailed in... seriously, Klein's microfilmed even envelopes? why did the search take seven hours?]

    Internal Invoice Information: 3/13/63 receipt date; 3/20/63 processing & shipping date; $19.95 rifle cost; $21.45 total cost; C2766 serial number; paid by money order; "W/ 4X SCOPE"

    Order Letter Information: Hidell's handwriting; Hidell's address; $19.95 rifle price.

  4. Somebody connected with the discovery of the Internal Invoice must have transmitted the wrong purchase price to other FBI personnel ($21.95 instead of $21.45), which led to confusion when the FBI and Secret Service began searching for the money order that was used to pay for the rifle. HOW IS THIS POSSIBLE IF THE FBI HAD THE WRITTEN DOCUMENTATION (KLEINS ORDER FORM) ON 11/23/63?

  5. In a hallway press conference on the night of Nov. 23, Chief Jesse Curry refers to the Order Letter.[question: what Order Letter information does he report?] HE REPORTS THE RIFLE WAS SOLD FOR $12.78

  6. ???[questions: when did the press get the $12.78 price and 3/20/63 order date information?(REPORTED BY CURRY AND THE PRESS ON 11/23/63) what was the $21.95 I had in my list... I forget... was that reported by the press as well?] THE $21.95 WAS IN AN FBI MEMO TO THE SECRET SERVICE ON 11/23/63

  7. According to FBI report CD75, on Nov. 23, the following information was received from the VP of Klein's's bank.

    -- On Mar. 15 1963, Klein's had deposited $13,827.98 in its bank. NO CONFIRMATION OF THE DATE OF DEPOSIT/ DEPOSIT SLIP SAID 2/15/63; WALDMAN TOLD THE WC HE COULD NOT SAY WHEN THE DEPOSIT WAS MADE; The deposit included a $21.45 postal money order IT INCLUDED 7 INDIVIDUAL DEPOSITS OF $21.45--NOT ONE

    -- On Mar. 16 the bank had sent the $21.45 PMO to the Federal Reserve Bank of Chicago. NO WAY TO PROVE THIS. NO DOCUMENTATION. NO DATE ON THE MONEY ORDER. It would have been received by the FRB on Mar. 18. PROVE THIS!

  8. According to SS report CD87, at about 8:30 PM on Nov. 23 a request was issued to locate and obtain postal money order #2,202,130,462 dated 3/12/63 in the amount of $21.45 payable to Klein's by Alek James Hidell. [question: how and when did the SS get the money order number and date?]

  9. ???[question: anything else?] MANY QUESTIONS: 1) LHO ORDERED 36" RIFLE, RECEIVED 40" RIFLE; 2) LHO TIMECARD SHOWS HE COULD DID NOT LEAVE WORK ON 3/12/63; 3) HOW DID MAILING ENVELOPE GET TO ZONE 12 IN DALLAS? 4) WHY NOT A SINGLE BANK STAMP OR DATE STAMP ON MONEY ORDER? 5) WHY NO DATE OR BANK STAMP ON DEPOSIT SLIP FOR $13,827.98? 6) HOW CAN ANYONE IDENTIFY A $21.45 ENTRY AS A MONEY ORDER ON WALDMAN 10 ? 7) FBI AGENT REPORTED TWO RIFLES FOUND ON THE KLEINS MICROFILM SIMILAR TO C2766, BUT NOTHING ABOUT C2766; WHY ?? 8) WHY DOES WALDMAN ALLEGEDLY TELL THE FBI THE $21.45 MONEY ORDER WAS DEPOSITED TO HIS BANK ON 3/13/63, BUT THEN TELLS THE WC THAT HE CANNOT DETERMINE WHEN THIS DEPOSIT WAS MADE? 9) WHAT HAPPENED TO THE MONEY ORDER STUB, ALLEGEDLY FOUND AT THE DALLAS GPO BY HARRY HOLMES? 10) HOW DID ROBERT JACKSON, EMPLOYEE OF THE NATIONAL ARCHIVES IN ALEXANDRIA, VA., COME INTO POSSESSION OF THE MONEY ORDER ON THE NIGHT OF 11/23/63? 11) WHY DID NEITHER THE FBI NOR THE WC ASK WALDMAN FOR A COPY OF THE KLEINS BANK STATEMENT FOR MARCH, 1963 IN ORDER TO DETERMINE IF AND WHEN A $13.827.98 DEPOSIT WAS MADE TO KLEINS ACCOUNT? 12) WALDMAN GAVE FBI AGENT DOLAN THE KLEINS MICROFILM AND DOLAN GAVE HIM A RECEIPT FOR THE MICROFILM. WHY DOES ANOTHER FBI REPORT SAY THE KLEINS MICROFILM WAS LEFT WITH WALDMAN ON 11/23/63? 13) WHY IS THERE A SS REPORT STATING THAT THE MONEY ORDER, FOUND IN KANSAS CITY, WAS BEING SENT TO WASHINGTON DC, WHILE A 2ND MONEY ORDER WAS FOUND IN ALEXANDRIA, VA? 14) WHY WAS NEITHER FBI AGENTS DOLAN, TOEDT, OR MAHAN CALLED TO TESTIFY BEFORE THE WC? 15) WHAT HAPPENED TO THE INFORMATION CONCERNING A RIFLE, SIMILAR TO C2766, THAT WAS SOLD BY KLEINS IN LATE MARCH, 1963, AND PAID FOR WITH A MONEY ORDER ISSUED ON 3/20/63? 16) EXPLAIN WHY, IF THE FBI HAD KLEIN'S ORDER FORM, THE $21.45 MONEY ORDER, ETC., ON 11/23/63, DID THE FBI NOT ANNOUNCE THIS TO THE PRESS? WHY DID THEY WAIT UNTIL 11/29/63? 17) EXPLAIN THE MARCH 20 NOTATION ON RUTH PAINES CALENDAR "LHO PURCHASED A RIFLE" 18) EXPLAIN WHEN AND WHERE OSWALD PURCHASED OR OBTAINED A CLIP AND AMMUNITION FOR THE RIFLE 19) EXPLAIN WHAT HAPPENED TO THE KLEINS MICROFILM WHILE IN FBI CUSTODY? 20) EXPLAIN WHAT HAPPENED TO THE POSTAL MONEY ORDER WHILE IN FBI CUSTODY? 21) EXPLAIN WHY THE FBI REPORTS, WHICH REFER TO INTERVIEWS WITH WALDMAN AND WILMOUTH, WERE NOT SIGNED BY THE REPORTING AGENT 22) IF CRESCENT DELIVERED C2766 TO KLEINS IN JANUARY, 1963, THEN EXPLAIN WHAT HAPPENED TO THE C2766 THAT CRESCENT SOLD TO KLEINS ON 6/18/63 22) WHY WAS LOUIS FELDSOTT NOT INTERVIEWED BY THE FBI OR WARREN COMMISSION?

This all seems consistent so far. I need to insert the information reported by the press and answer the questions in red. Any help would be appreciated.

Hi, David, glad your'e back.

Before we argue about the latest developments, please answer a few questions about your "alternative explanation" above. Most of the stuff above in black is from you. Let's talk!

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Sandy,

If the FBI made the mistakes you suggest in point 5 above, why did it take nearly a week for them to publicly correct the info when the error should have been clearly visible to anyone involved in analyzing the handwriting, or even looking at the evidence, just hours after the hit?

That's a good question Jim. I'll include that on my Alternative Explanation.

If the purchase actually occurred, how was it paid for? With an uncashed, unprocessed magic money order?

That's also a good question. But it's outside the scope of my Alternative Explanation.

[strange... I was surprised to find I had misspelled "scope" as "sope." I clicked "Edit" so I could correct the spelling. Lo and behold, it was already spelled correctly!"]

Are we to seriously believe that Kleins microfilmed even the envelope for each transaction, but not the method of payment?

I'm a hesitant to put this on my Alternative Explanation because I don't know how Klein's decided what they should keep long-term records of. But I do agree it seems odd. Maybe they figured that the method of payment was retrievable through other means, unlike the Order Letter once it had been discarded.

A few other questions remain unanswered:

1) LHO ORDERED 36" RIFLE, RECEIVED 40" RIFLE; 2) LHO TIMECARD SHOWS HE COULD DID NOT LEAVE WORK ON 3/12/63; 3) HOW DID MAILING ENVELOPE GET TO ZONE 12 IN DALLAS? 4) WHY NOT A SINGLE BANK STAMP OR DATE STAMP ON MONEY ORDER? 5) WHY NO DATE OR BANK STAMP ON DEPOSIT SLIP FOR $13,827.98? 6) HOW CAN ANYONE IDENTIFY A $21.45 ENTRY AS A MONEY ORDER ON WALDMAN 10 ? 7) FBI AGENT REPORTED TWO RIFLES FOUND ON THE KLEINS MICROFILM SIMILAR TO C2766, BUT NOTHING ABOUT C2766; WHY ?? 8) WHY DOES WALDMAN ALLEGEDLY TELL THE FBI THE $21.45 MONEY ORDER WAS DEPOSITED TO HIS BANK ON 3/13/63, BUT THEN TELLS THE WC THAT HE CANNOT DETERMINE WHEN THIS DEPOSIT WAS MADE? 9) WHAT HAPPENED TO THE MONEY ORDER STUB, ALLEGEDLY FOUND AT THE DALLAS GPO BY HARRY HOLMES? 10) HOW DID ROBERT JACKSON, EMPLOYEE OF THE NATIONAL ARCHIVES IN ALEXANDRIA, VA., COME INTO POSSESSION OF THE MONEY ORDER ON THE NIGHT OF 11/23/63? 11) WHY DID NEITHER THE FBI NOR THE WC ASK WALDMAN FOR A COPY OF THE KLEINS BANK STATEMENT FOR MARCH, 1963 IN ORDER TO DETERMINE IF AND WHEN A $13.827.98 DEPOSIT WAS MADE TO KLEINS ACCOUNT? 12) WALDMAN GAVE FBI AGENT DOLAN THE KLEINS MICROFILM AND DOLAN GAVE HIM A RECEIPT FOR THE MICROFILM. WHY DOES ANOTHER FBI REPORT SAY THE KLEINS MICROFILM WAS LEFT WITH WALDMAN ON 11/23/63? 13) WHY IS THERE A SS REPORT STATING THAT THE MONEY ORDER, FOUND IN KANSAS CITY, WAS BEING SENT TO WASHINGTON DC, WHILE A 2ND MONEY ORDER WAS FOUND IN ALEXANDRIA, VA? 14) WHY WAS NEITHER FBI AGENTS DOLAN, TOEDT, OR MAHAN CALLED TO TESTIFY BEFORE THE WC? 15) WHAT HAPPENED TO THE INFORMATION CONCERNING A RIFLE, SIMILAR TO C2766, THAT WAS SOLD BY KLEINS IN LATE MARCH, 1963, AND PAID FOR WITH A MONEY ORDER ISSUED ON 3/20/63? 16) EXPLAIN WHY, IF THE FBI HAD KLEIN'S ORDER FORM, THE $21.45 MONEY ORDER, ETC., ON 11/23/63, DID THE FBI NOT ANNOUNCE THIS TO THE PRESS? WHY DID THEY WAIT UNTIL 11/29/63? 17) EXPLAIN THE MARCH 20 NOTATION ON RUTH PAINES CALENDAR "LHO PURCHASED A RIFLE" 18) EXPLAIN WHEN AND WHERE OSWALD PURCHASED OR OBTAINED A CLIP AND AMMUNITION FOR THE RIFLE 19) EXPLAIN WHAT HAPPENED TO THE KLEINS MICROFILM WHILE IN FBI CUSTODY? 20) EXPLAIN WHAT HAPPENED TO THE POSTAL MONEY ORDER WHILE IN FBI CUSTODY? 21) EXPLAIN WHY THE FBI REPORTS, WHICH REFER TO INTERVIEWS WITH WALDMAN AND WILMOUTH, WERE NOT SIGNED BY THE REPORTING AGENT 22) IF CRESCENT DELIVERED C2766 TO KLEINS IN JANUARY, 1963, THEN EXPLAIN WHAT HAPPENED TO THE C2766 THAT CRESCENT SOLD TO KLEINS ON 6/18/63 22) WHY WAS LOUIS FELDSOTT NOT INTERVIEWED BY THE FBI OR WARREN COMMISSION?

There are many things in the above that point to the rifle purchase being faked. And I do believe it was. But the above is outside the sope of my Alternative Explanation.

The only purpose of my Alternative Explanation is to see if there is an innocent way of explaining the wrong information that was fed to the press. What I'm seeing is that there might be. HOWEVER, the innocent Alternative Explanation is viable ONLY if the purchase actually took place.

So what can be concluded from this? That the discrepancies reported by the press aren't IN AND OF THEMSELVES very good evidence that a faked purchase took place.

Now, that doesn't mean the press discrepancies aren't useful at all in explaining a fake purchase. It means only that other problems indicating a faked purchase are also needed to actually prove a faked purchase. The PMO not having bank stamps is a good example of this. Even better would be something that simply cannot be reconciled no matter what.

I want to comment on statistical analysis of the rifle purchase. Even though I agree that the PMO is VERY GOOD evidence the rifle purchase was faked, there remains a slim chance that somehow the PMO slipped through the bank-stamping procedure. Therefore it is not, imo, in and of itself ABSOLUTE proof the rifle purchase was faked. HOWEVER, if there are OTHER things that -- like the PMO -- aren't absolute proof but are highly unlikely to have occurred in a REAL rifle purchase, then the evidence pointing to a faked purchase becomes exponentially greater. (My use of the word "exponential" is not to be taken in the strict mathematical sense.) So what I'm saying is that ABSOLUTE proof is not necessary (though it would be the ideal). Something can be VIRTUALLY proven when the odds are stacked greatly in its favor.

Edited by Sandy Larsen

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Version 3

Alternate Explanation for Incorrect Rifle Information Being Reported

Based on David Von Pein's Post 116 in this Thread

Version 4 Date: 2/24/16

Substantive changes in red.

  1. The FBI has the Carcano rifle in their possession at 11:45 PM CST by 2:15 Dallas time on Friday the 22nd, from which they get the serial number C2766.

  2. The FBI discovers from a gun dealer in Dallas that Italian surplus WW2 rifles were being distributed by Crescent Firearms in New York City. This leads the FBI to Klein's in Chicago after discovering that Crescent had sold the C2766 rifle to Klein's.

  3. The FBI searches Klein's records and the Internal Invoice matching the C2766 rifle is found. (This is "Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 7").

    The FBI also found on microfilm the "Order Letter," as Curry later called it. (This is CE773). The Order Letter consists of an order form clipped out of the Feb. 1963 American Rifleman magazine, and the envelope in which it was mailed.

    The FBI quickly determined that the writing on the Order Letter was that of Lee Harvey Oswald.

    Internal Invoice Information: A. Hidell customer name; 3/13/63 receipt date; 3/20/63 processing & shipping date; $19.95 rifle cost; $21.45 total cost; C2766 serial number; paid via money order; "W/ 4X SCOPE".

    Order Letter Information: a few words in Hidell's handwriting; Hidell's address; $19.95 rifle price.

    WHY DID THIS SEARCH TAKE 7 HOURS?

  4. DVP HYPOTHESIS: Somebody in the FBI transmitted the wrong total price to other FBI personnel ($21.95 instead of $21.45). This led to confusion when the FBI and Secret Service began searching for the money order.

  5. SDL HYPOTHESIS #1: Somebody in the FBI was given a copy of the Internal Invoice (and perhaps also the Order Letter) and was assigned to search for Klein's ads matching the C2766 rifle. He finds one. The ad has a large "$12.78" price printed on it. The agent notes the 3/20/63 processing/shipping date on the Internal Invoice, and determines it to be a suitable "purchase date." He clumsily doesn't realize that the $12.78 price didn't include the scope. (Or perhaps he has heard that the Texas Sports Shop had added the scope later.) This information is passed on to Chief Curry of the DPD.

  6. SDL HYPOTHESIS #2: The Texas Sports Shop episode (with Dial Ryder) is an unrelated event. The FBI nevertheless investigates it. It may reveal that the original scope was replaced with a second one.

    EVEN I, AS THE AUTHOR OF THIS HYPOTHESIS, HAVE A HARD TIME BUYING IT. MAYBE THE PART ABOUT A REPLACEMENT SCOPE COULD BE BELIEVABLE. BUT TO ME THE WHOLE DIAL RYDER THING WREAKS OF CONTRIVANCE THAT IS BEYOND WHAT WC APOLOGISTS ATTRIBUTE TO DIAL RYDER. I THEREFORE CALL UPON DVP TO ANSWER THIS.

  7. In a hallway press conference on the night of Nov. 23 at ~7:00 PM Dallas time, Chief Jesse Curry comments on the Order Letter. He reports that the price of the rifle, including the scope, was $12.78; that it “was advertised in some magazine for that [price];” that the purchase date was Mar. 20, 1963; and that the writing had been authenticated as Oswald's. This info had been provided to the DPD by the FBI.

    THE FBI HAD AUTHENTICATED OSWALD’S HANDWRITING FROM WHAT LITTLE TEXT WAS IN THE ORDER LETTER? (THEY DIDN'T HAVE THE MONEY ORDER YET.)

  8. On the evening of Nov. 23, the media began reporting the following information regarding the rifle purchase: 1) Mar. 20 purchase date; 2) $12.78 price tag; and 3) that the order handwriting was Oswald’s. Some in the media had a Klein’s catalog ad showing the $12.78 price. (See the Frank Reynolds Video in Post 102.)

    WHY DID IT TAKE NEARLY A WEEK FOR THE FBI TO CORRECT THE PRICE OF THE RIFLE BEING REPORTED BY THE PRESS? The price being $19.95, not $12.78.

  9. According to FBI report CD75, on Nov. 23, the following information was received from the VP of Klein's's bank.

    -- On Mar. 15 1963, Klein's had deposited $13,827.98 in its bank. The deposit included a $21.45 postal money order.

    -- On Mar. 16 the bank had sent the $21.45 PMO to the Federal Reserve Bank of Chicago. It would have been received by the FRB on Mar. 18.

  10. According to SS report CD87, at about 8:30 PM EST on Nov. 23 a request was issued to locate and obtain postal money order #2,202,130,462 dated 3/12/63 in the amount of $21.45 payable to Klein's by Alek James Hidell.

    [question: how and when did the SS get the money order number and date? (technically, that info probably isn't relevant to this list)]

  11. The postal money order was recovered at 9:35 PM EST (8:35 PM Dallas time) on Nov. 23.

Corrections to Address

Jim Hargrove: Post 145 on this page. Addressed!

Post 160 on this page. Addressed!

Jim DiEugenio: Post 161 on this page. Addressed!

Information to Review

David Josephs: Posts 129 and 135 on this page.

Jim Hargrove: Post 145 on this page.

Important Topics to Address Later

Jim DiEugenio: The 1962 rifle shipment that was replace with a 1963 one.

(See post 161 on this page, item 2. Also previous related posts.)

===============================================================================

EDITING:

Alternate Explanation for Incorrect Rifle Information Being Reported

Innocent Explanations for Mail Order Rifle Anomalies

Version 5 Date: 3/4/16

Substantive changes in red.

UNEXPLAINED ANOMALIES IN ALL CAPS

FBI Locates the Hidell Purchase Order at Klein's

  1. The FBI has the Carcano rifle in their possession by 2:15 Dallas time on Friday the 22nd, from which they get the serial number C2766.

  2. The FBI discovers from a gun dealer in Dallas that Italian surplus WW2 rifles were being distributed by Crescent Firearms in New York City. This leads the FBI to Klein's in Chicago after discovering that Crescent had sold the C2766 rifle to Klein's.

  3. The FBI searches Klein's records and the Internal Invoice matching the C2766 rifle is found. (This is "Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 7").

    SDL HYPOTHESIS (3/4/16): It takes seven hours to locate the Hidell order because only the rifle's serial number and an approximate date of sale were known. Thousands of internal invoices have to be pulled and inspected.

    The FBI then finds on microfilm two purchase orders that matches the price and payment method as indicated on the Internal Invoice. One was paid for with an American Express MO, the other with a postal MO. The latter is suspected of being the offending purchase order, or what Chief Curry will later call the "Order Letter." (This is CE773). The Order Letter consists of an order form clipped out of the Feb. 1963 American Rifleman magazine, and the envelope in which it was mailed.

    The FBI quickly determines that the writing on the Order Letter was that of Lee Harvey Oswald.

    Internal Invoice Information: A. Hidell customer name; 3/13/63 receipt date; 3/20/63 processing & shipping date; $19.95 rifle cost; $21.45 total cost; C2766 serial number; paid via money order; "W/ 4X SCOPE".

    Order Letter Information: a few words in Hidell's handwriting; Hidell's address; $19.95 rifle price.

    WHY DID THIS SEARCH TAKE 7 HOURS?

    HOW COULD THE FBI AUTHENTICATE OSWALD’S HANDWRITING FROM WHAT LITTLE TEXT WAS IN THE ORDER LETTER? (THEY DIDN'T HAVE THE MONEY ORDER YET.)

  4. Purchase Order Information is Released to the Press

  5. SDL HYPOTHESIS (2/23/16): Somebody in the FBI was given a copy of the Internal Invoice (and perhaps also the Order Letter) and was assigned to search for Klein's ads matching the C2766 rifle. He finds one. The ad has a large "$12.78" price printed on it. The agent notes the 3/20/63 processing/shipping date on the Internal Invoice, and determines it to be a suitable "purchase date." He clumsily doesn't realize that the $12.78 price didn't include the scope. (Or perhaps he has heard that the Texas Sports Shop had added the scope later.) This information is passed on to Chief Curry of the DPD.

  6. SDL HYPOTHESIS (2/24/16): The Texas Sports Shop episode (with Dial Ryder) is an unrelated event. The FBI nevertheless investigates it. It may reveal that the original scope was replaced with a second one.

    EVEN I, AS THE AUTHOR OF THIS HYPOTHESIS, HAVE A HARD TIME BUYING IT. MAYBE THE PART ABOUT A REPLACEMENT SCOPE COULD BE BELIEVABLE. BUT TO ME THE WHOLE DIAL RYDER THING WREAKS OF CONTRIVANCE THAT IS BEYOND WHAT WC APOLOGISTS ATTRIBUTE TO DIAL RYDER. I THEREFORE CALL UPON DVP TO ANSWER THIS.

  7. In a hallway press conference on the night of Nov. 23 at ~7:00 PM Dallas time, Chief Jesse Curry comments on the Order Letter. He reports that the price of the rifle, including the scope, was $12.78; that it “was advertised in some magazine for that [price];” that the purchase date was Mar. 20, 1963; and that the writing had been authenticated as Oswald's. This info had been provided to the DPD by the FBI.

  8. On the evening of Nov. 23, the media began reporting the following information regarding the rifle purchase: 1) Mar. 20 purchase date; 2) $12.78 price tag; and 3) that the order handwriting was Oswald’s. Some in the media had a Klein’s catalog ad showing the $12.78 price. (See the Frank Reynolds Video in Post 102.)

    WHY DID IT TAKE NEARLY A WEEK FOR THE FBI TO CORRECT THE PRICE OF THE RIFLE BEING REPORTED BY THE PRESS? The price being $19.95, not $12.78.

    FBI Locates the Money Order

  9. According to FBI report CD75, on Nov. 23, the following information is received from the VP of Klein's bank, Robert Wilmouth.

    -- On Mar. 15 1963, Klein's deposited $13,827.98 in its bank. The deposit included a $21.45 postal money order.

    -- On Mar. 16 the bank sent the $21.45 PMO to the Federal Reserve Bank of Chicago. It would have been received by the FRB on Mar. 18, according to Wilmouth.

    SDL HYPOTHESIS (3/4/16): Klein's deposit slip is accidentally hand-dated Feb. 15, 1963 instead of the correct date of deposit, Mar. 15, 1963.

    WHY DIDN'T THE WC VERIFY THE CORRECT DATE OF THE DEPOSIT BY SHOWING THE BANK RECEIPT (SUPPOSEDLY) STAMPED ON THE BACK SIDE OF KLEIN'S DEPOSIT SLIP? OR BY PRODUCING A KLEIN'S BANK STATEMENT SHOWING THE DEPOSIT?

  10. DVP HYPOTHESIS: Somebody in the FBI transmitted the wrong total price to other FBI personnel ($21.95 instead of $21.45). This led to confusion when the FBI and Secret Service began searching for the money order.

  11. According to SS report CD87, at about 8:30 PM EST on Nov. 23 a request was issued to locate and obtain postal money order #2,202,130,462 dated 3/12/63 in the amount of $21.45 payable to Klein's by Alek James Hidell.

    [question: how and when did the SS get the money order number and date?]

  12. The postal money order was recovered at 9:35 PM EST (8:35 PM Dallas time) on Nov. 23.

Corrections to Address

Jim DiEugenio: Post 161 on this page. Addressed!

Information to Review

David Josephs: Posts 129 and 135 on this page.

Jim Hargrove: Post 145 on this page.

Important Topics to Address Later

Jim DiEugenio: The 1962 rifle shipment that was replace with a 1963 one.

(See post 161 on this page, item 2. Also previous related posts.)

Search Keywords

alternate explanation for incorrect rifle information being reported

Edited by Sandy Larsen

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Sandy:

1. As David pointed out, the FBI had the rifle earlier than the time you placed on it. Which means they had the correct serial number before the search.

Correction made. Thanks to both you and David J.

2. In your point two, then why did they discard that particular shipment of rifles transported in the middle of 1962, for a shipment from 1963? (As I have said previously, this is a crucial point that cannot be ignored. It goes to the heart of the matter: Did Klein's have the rifle in question at the time of the alleged transaction?)

I'm not as familiar with this problem as some of you guys are. But it doesn't sound like it's relevant to the subject of my Alternative Explanation list. (My list is meant to explain information incorrectly reported to the press. Though admittedly the incorrect $21.95 total is in the list even though it's not relevant. That's my fault... I couldn't remember what the $21.95 problem was about when I first wrote the list.)

I did include in my latest version of the list that the issue you describe here should be explored.

3. If they did find the internal receipt, then why did they report all the wrong information....

The answer to this is explained (hypothesized on) in my list.

....and why did they keep this up for a week,....

I've added that question to the list.

....and why the Dial Ryder episode?

That's a good question. I put a (qualified) hypothesis on my list to explain it.

In fact why did the FBI actually report the wrong information that night to the Secret Service?....

DVP, in his hypothesis, says that the FBI made a mistake, reporting $21.95 instead of $21.45. (Or maybe it was the SS's fault in the miscommunication.)

.... And why did those three FBI agents involved in the search not testify to the WC?

Is EVERY investigator in a trial typically asked to testify?

So in addition to writing: Why did this search take seven hours, you should also add "and get the wrong results, and these guys failed to testify under oath."

4. Sorry, I don't buy the "wrong transcriptions of information", not if they have the correct information in front of them.

Do you seriously believe that FBI agents don't make mistakes on occassion? Maybe it was a typo in a telegraph message. Or maybe the "$21.45" in some agent's handwriting looked like "$21.95." I've seen 4s that look like 9s, and vice versa.

This sounds like Harry Holmes BS, to give him time to find the stub that was never found in the WC volumes.

5. By 11/23, when the alleged PMO is found, the same wrong information is still circulating? So, in other words, with the PMO found, with the coupon found, with the internal receipt found, everything is still reported wrong?

I've put that on the list. But in all honesty, I can see the FBI allowing the same information to circulate. I mean, wasn't the only incorrect piece of information the $12.78 price? Even that isn't entirely wrong. It is only wrong to say that that price includes the scope. (And yes, I know that some reports said that.)

And BTW, why did Jackson, the guy who allegedly found the PMO not testify before the WC either?

That's enough for me. Its baloney.

And that is even before we get to the whole SR 71 mailing of the money order, and the PMO that was never processed through the system.

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  • Indeed, nothing of the sort is now attributed to anyone. Instead, Armstrong’s write-up simply assumes that the money order should have multiple bank stamps. The "failure" of Belin and Waldman to notice the absence of these stamps that the money order “should” have had is deemed “suspicious.” For you fans of logic (there are surely some of you out there, are there not?), this is the fallacy known as “assuming that which is to be proven.” [emphasis added]

You mean like assuming postal money orders don't require bank stamps?

Even though regulations state they do?

I'm glad we got that cleared up.

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Jim,

Much of what you wrote (below) has since been addressed in other posts. I will respond only to anything not addressed so far. My writing in green.

Sandy,

See notes in blue:

  1. The FBI has the Carcano rifle in their possession at 11:45 PM CST on Friday the 22nd, from which they get the serial number C2766.

  2. The FBI discovers from a gun dealer in Dallas that Italian surplus WW2 rifles were being distributed by Crescent Firearms in New York City. This leads the FBI to Klein's in Chicago after finding out that Crescent had sold the "C2766" rifle to Klein's. YES, THE FBI FOUND OUT IT WAS SOLD ON 6/18/62. WHY THEN DID THE FBI LATER REPORT THAT CRESCENT SOLD C2766 TO KLEINS IN JANUARY, 1963?

  3. Klein's records are searched and the "C2766" Internal Invoice is found (what would become "Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 7"), which provides pertinent information about the sale of Italian rifle No. C2766 for $21.45 to one A. Hidell of Dallas, Texas (via "M.O." [money order]) on March 20, 1963 (which is the date the FBI goes with THEN EXPLAIN WHY AN FBI MEMO, WRITTEN TO THE SECRET SERVICE, DESCRIBES A RIFLE SOLD BY KLEINS THAT WAS SIMILAR TO C2766 THAT WAS PAID FOR WITH A MONEY ORDER ISSUED ON 3/20/63,....

    Klein's didn't keep records of payments on microfilm, if we can believe the Order Letter is legitimate. My Alternative Explanation assume it is. This means that the 3/20/63 money order date given in that FBI memo could not really have been a money order date. Because no money order date was known at the time. Right?

    The prominent date on the Hidell Internal Invoice is 3/20/63. I assume they got the date from that. (In my Alternative Explanation world.)


    ....instead of the date stamped at the very top of invoice--March 13, 1963--which was the date Klein's put the Hidell order through their cash register, as William Waldman explained in his Warren Commission testimony; the March 20 date was, of course, the date the rifle was shipped to Hidell/Oswald) IT WAS ALSO THE DATE ANOTHER RIFLE WAS SOLD BY KLEINS, AND PAID FOR WITH A MONEY ORDER ISSUED ON 3/20/63..

  4. In addition to the internal Klein's Internal Invoice, the FBI also found on microfilm the "Order Letter" (as Curry later called it), which is CE773. The Order Letter is the order form clipped by Oswald out of the Feb. '63 American Rifleman magazine, and the envelope in which it was mailed.

    The FBI quickly determined that the writing on the Order Letter was that of Lee Harvey Oswald. YES, AND ACCORDING TO CURRY THE PRICE OF THE RIFLE WAS $12.78, NOT $21.45

    [questions: when were the invoice and order letter found? the microfilmed order letter includes the envelope it was mailed in... seriously, Klein's microfilmed even envelopes? why did the search take seven hours?]

    Internal Invoice Information: 3/13/63 receipt date; 3/20/63 processing & shipping date; $19.95 rifle cost; $21.45 total cost; C2766 serial number; paid by money order; "W/ 4X SCOPE"

    Order Letter Information: Hidell's handwriting; Hidell's address; $19.95 rifle price.

  5. Somebody connected with the discovery of the Internal Invoice must have transmitted the wrong purchase price to other FBI personnel ($21.95 instead of $21.45), which led to confusion when the FBI and Secret Service began searching for the money order that was used to pay for the rifle. HOW IS THIS POSSIBLE IF THE FBI HAD THE WRITTEN DOCUMENTATION (KLEINS ORDER FORM) ON 11/23/63?

  6. In a hallway press conference on the night of Nov. 23, Chief Jesse Curry refers to the Order Letter.[question: what Order Letter information does he report?] HE REPORTS THE RIFLE WAS SOLD FOR $12.78

  7. ???[questions: when did the press get the $12.78 price and 3/20/63 order date information?(REPORTED BY CURRY AND THE PRESS ON 11/23/63) what was the $21.95 I had in my list... I forget... was that reported by the press as well?] THE $21.95 WAS IN AN FBI MEMO TO THE SECRET SERVICE ON 11/23/63

  8. According to FBI report CD75, on Nov. 23, the following information was received from the VP of Klein's's bank.
    -- On Mar. 15 1963, Klein's had deposited $13,827.98 in its bank. NO CONFIRMATION OF THE DATE OF DEPOSIT/ DEPOSIT SLIP SAID 2/15/63; WALDMAN TOLD THE WC HE COULD NOT SAY WHEN THE DEPOSIT WAS MADE; The deposit included a $21.45 postal money order IT INCLUDED 7 INDIVIDUAL DEPOSITS OF $21.45--NOT ONE
    -- On Mar. 16 the bank had sent the $21.45 PMO to the Federal Reserve Bank of Chicago. NO WAY TO PROVE THIS. NO DOCUMENTATION. NO DATE ON THE MONEY ORDER. ....

    ....It would have been received by the FRB on Mar. 18. PROVE THIS!

    Since by definition my Alternative Explanation is "WC conclusion friendly," there is no need for proof. What I wrote is what the bank VP testified to.


  9. According to SS report CD87, at about 8:30 PM on Nov. 23 a request was issued to locate and obtain postal money order #2,202,130,462 dated 3/12/63 in the amount of $21.45 payable to Klein's by Alek James Hidell. [question: how and when did the SS get the money order number and date?]

  10. ???[question: anything else?] MANY QUESTIONS: 1) LHO ORDERED 36" RIFLE, RECEIVED 40" RIFLE; 2) LHO TIMECARD SHOWS HE COULD DID NOT LEAVE WORK ON 3/12/63; 3) HOW DID MAILING ENVELOPE GET TO ZONE 12 IN DALLAS? 4) WHY NOT A SINGLE BANK STAMP OR DATE STAMP ON MONEY ORDER? 5) WHY NO DATE OR BANK STAMP ON DEPOSIT SLIP FOR $13,827.98? 6) HOW CAN ANYONE IDENTIFY A $21.45 ENTRY AS A MONEY ORDER ON WALDMAN 10 ? 7) FBI AGENT REPORTED TWO RIFLES FOUND ON THE KLEINS MICROFILM SIMILAR TO C2766, BUT NOTHING ABOUT C2766; WHY ?? 8) WHY DOES WALDMAN ALLEGEDLY TELL THE FBI THE $21.45 MONEY ORDER WAS DEPOSITED TO HIS BANK ON 3/13/63, BUT THEN TELLS THE WC THAT HE CANNOT DETERMINE WHEN THIS DEPOSIT WAS MADE? 9) WHAT HAPPENED TO THE MONEY ORDER STUB, ALLEGEDLY FOUND AT THE DALLAS GPO BY HARRY HOLMES? 10) HOW DID ROBERT JACKSON, EMPLOYEE OF THE NATIONAL ARCHIVES IN ALEXANDRIA, VA., COME INTO POSSESSION OF THE MONEY ORDER ON THE NIGHT OF 11/23/63? 11) WHY DID NEITHER THE FBI NOR THE WC ASK WALDMAN FOR A COPY OF THE KLEINS BANK STATEMENT FOR MARCH, 1963 IN ORDER TO DETERMINE IF AND WHEN A $13.827.98 DEPOSIT WAS MADE TO KLEINS ACCOUNT? 12) WALDMAN GAVE FBI AGENT DOLAN THE KLEINS MICROFILM AND DOLAN GAVE HIM A RECEIPT FOR THE MICROFILM. WHY DOES ANOTHER FBI REPORT SAY THE KLEINS MICROFILM WAS LEFT WITH WALDMAN ON 11/23/63? 13) WHY IS THERE A SS REPORT STATING THAT THE MONEY ORDER, FOUND IN KANSAS CITY, WAS BEING SENT TO WASHINGTON DC, WHILE A 2ND MONEY ORDER WAS FOUND IN ALEXANDRIA, VA? 14) WHY WAS NEITHER FBI AGENTS DOLAN, TOEDT, OR MAHAN CALLED TO TESTIFY BEFORE THE WC? 15) WHAT HAPPENED TO THE INFORMATION CONCERNING A RIFLE, SIMILAR TO C2766, THAT WAS SOLD BY KLEINS IN LATE MARCH, 1963, AND PAID FOR WITH A MONEY ORDER ISSUED ON 3/20/63? 16) EXPLAIN WHY, IF THE FBI HAD KLEIN'S ORDER FORM, THE $21.45 MONEY ORDER, ETC., ON 11/23/63, DID THE FBI NOT ANNOUNCE THIS TO THE PRESS? WHY DID THEY WAIT UNTIL 11/29/63? 17) EXPLAIN THE MARCH 20 NOTATION ON RUTH PAINES CALENDAR "LHO PURCHASED A RIFLE" 18) EXPLAIN WHEN AND WHERE OSWALD PURCHASED OR OBTAINED A CLIP AND AMMUNITION FOR THE RIFLE 19) EXPLAIN WHAT HAPPENED TO THE KLEINS MICROFILM WHILE IN FBI CUSTODY? 20) EXPLAIN WHAT HAPPENED TO THE POSTAL MONEY ORDER WHILE IN FBI CUSTODY? 21) EXPLAIN WHY THE FBI REPORTS, WHICH REFER TO INTERVIEWS WITH WALDMAN AND WILMOUTH, WERE NOT SIGNED BY THE REPORTING AGENT 22) IF CRESCENT DELIVERED C2766 TO KLEINS IN JANUARY, 1963, THEN EXPLAIN WHAT HAPPENED TO THE C2766 THAT CRESCENT SOLD TO KLEINS ON 6/18/63 22) WHY WAS LOUIS FELDSOTT NOT INTERVIEWED BY THE FBI OR WARREN COMMISSION?

This all seems consistent so far. I need to insert the information reported by the press and answer the questions in red. Any help would be appreciated.

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Our esteemed Lance Payette made the following statement in his recent post:

[To Armstrong, the] "failure" of Belin and Waldman to notice the absence of ... stamps that the money order “should” have had is deemed “suspicious.” For you fans of logic ... this is the fallacy known as “assuming that which is to be proven.”

So he thinks Armstrong has committed the fallacy when in fact it is he who has. For it is Armstrong who has asked a bank executive if bank stamps were required and received an answer in the affirmative, and since that time has seen for himself the Federal Reserve Bank regulations requiring bank stamps. In contrast, Lance has only supposed that bank stamps were not required, using a line of self-concocted reasoning.

The man's arrogance is astonishing.

Edited by Sandy Larsen

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