When did the second floor lunchroom encounter first come to light?

[Guest]

I just want to reply to some of the musings from page 1 with regards the roll call and Truly's testimony in specific.

 

The roll call did not happen, and never at the time stated by Truly. Here is why.

Bill Shelley is seen leaving with Williams and Garcia at about 13:30. Had Lee been missing at that time then this would have been blasted around like there was no tomorrow. Instead a very generic APB went out on the airwaves instead. They had not clocked that lee the assassin was missing. Shelley had given him permission to go and Truly had vouched for him at the front door.......

Shelley is gone to City Hall and he is there for a good few hours as he makes sure Garcia and Williams get treated right by the cops. 

He sees Oswald being paraded in by the DPD and remarks that 'he' works at the TSBD and he is his mgr.  What he does not do is point him out as the man missing at 1 PM before he left. Now why not as that would have sealed the deal.

He then finds out Oz is a cop killer.

Possibly while he is at DPD or later on a  TV/radio he finds out Oswald is a commie.

And then he makes his return to the TSBD and has a chat with Roy.........

Shelley's name is not on the Revill list, the Revill list shows that TSBD employees arrived back inside just before 3PM, the whole story of Truly picking Oswald out as the one missing  before 1 PM is utter rubbish. That same Revill list that has Oswald as the first person on top supporting Oswald left much later than the 3 minutes stated by the WC. Which then brings Roger Craig's and others sightings into play of a person looking like Oswald making his way down the grass and getting into the Nash Rambler.

Virgie Rackley does not return to the TSBD until 2:55 PM

Here is she is being interviewed by Biffle. Had Biffle known about Oswald then his questioning and reporting would have been much different.

Biffle himself said on this matter in 1981

Biffle in the DMN 1981.

. . . only two of us [reporters] had arrived at the ambush building [ the Depository] by this point. . . . Getting in was no problem. I just hid my press badge . . . and went in with the first wave of cops. . . . Hours dragged by. The building superintendent showed up with some papers in his hand. I listened as he told detectives about Lee Oswald failing to show up at a roll call. My impression is that there was an earlier roll call that had been inconclusive because several employees were missing. This time, however all were accounted for except Oswald. I jotted down the Oswald information. . . . Neither the police in the building nor the superintendent knew that Oswald already was under arrest.

 

Roll call? What frigging roll call......

More info on this at ROKC. It's a joint effort between Greg Parker, Ed Ledoux and yours truly.

http://reopenkennedycase.forumotion.net/t1160-roll-call-remedy

http://reopenkennedycase.forumotion.net/t1660-roll-call-remedy-reprise

 

Edited February 3, 2018 by Bart Kamp

[Steve Thomas]

1 hour ago, Bart Kamp said:

I just want to reply to some of the musings from page 1 with regards the roll call and Truly's testimony in specific.

 

 

 

Bart,

 

I was looking at this list of employees and something hit me. The list was compiled by Roy Westphal, Detective, Criminal Intelligence Section and P.M. Parks, Detective, Administrative Section, and given to Jack Revill.  Westphal and Parks were both Detectives in the Special Service Bureau.

The second column has the abbreviations at the top that says, "REF. INT". at the top.

Most of the names have NONE listed, but there are three names that have a number alongside their name. I always thought that the INT at the top of the column meant Interview, but then I remembered something. In the book, No More Silence by Larry Sneed, Westphal says that later in the evening on the 22nd, he and Parks had returned to their office at the Fairgrounds to write up their Report of their days activities. While they were there, Gannaway called them and asked them to cross-reference the list of TSBD employees against the CID's Intelligence Files. When they did, they recognized Joe Molina's name. Gannaway told them to bring the whole file downtown.

https://books.google.com/books?id=7uT-47ysB5MC&pg=PA326&lpg=PA326&dq=Dallas+"+Roy+Westphal"&source=bl&ots=eii6yRhLo8&sig=nr0C2_dukxaBfdcQiFnDLg3ugKM&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjt-9Xpi8nRAhVpwFQKHZBBDX0Q6AEIHDAA#v=onepage&q=Dallas " Roy Westphal"&f=false

I realized that the "INT" at the top of the second column stands for "Intelligence", not "Interview".

 

Besides Molina, there are two other names with a number alongside their name: a Mrs. J.E. Dean, and a Mrs. Oliver Hopson. I can't make out the number next to Mrs. Hopson, but I'll bet you that those numbers are DPD Intelligence File numbers. Mrs. Joseph Eddie Dean gave a statement to the FBI on 11/24/63.

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/exhibits/ce1427.htm

Mrs. Alvin Hopson also was interviewed by the FBI on 12/4/63.

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/exhibits/ce2085.htm

 

I wonder why those two women would be in the Dallas Police Department Intelligence files. Their husbands maybe?

Steve Thomas

[Steve Thomas]

1 minute ago, Steve Thomas said:

Bart,

 

I was looking at this list of employees and something hit me. The list was compiled by Roy Westphal, Detective, Criminal Intelligence Section and P.M. Parks, Detective, Administrative Section, and given to Jack Revill.  Westphal and Parks were both Detectives in the Special Service Bureau.

The second column has the abbreviations at the top that says, "REF. INT". at the top.

Most of the names have NONE listed, but there are three names that have a number alongside their name. I always thought that the INT at the top of the column meant Interview, but then I remembered something. In the book, No More Silence by Larry Sneed, Westphal says that later in the evening on the 22nd, he and Parks had returned to their office at the Fairgrounds to write up their Report of their days activities. While they were there, Gannaway called them and asked them to cross-reference the list of TSBD employees against the CID's Intelligence Files. When they did, they recognized Joe Molina's name. Gannaway told them to bring the whole file downtown.

 

And, taking a leap of faith, by having NONE next to his name, it also means that Oswald was not in the DPD's Intelligence files, and that the source of the 605 Elsbeth address came from somewhere else.

 

Steve Thomas

[Steve Thomas]

13 hours ago, Steve Thomas said:

Mrs. Joseph Eddie Dean gave a statement to the FBI on 11/24/63.

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/exhibits/ce1427.htm

 

Ruth Dean, aka Mrs. J.E. Dean was interviewed by Roy Westphal and V.J. Brian of the Criminal Intelligence Section on 2/18/64.

DPD Archives, Box 5, Folder# 6, Item# 55

http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/box5.htm

Nothing really there. This is just to note her name and the Subject line of the Report:

Subject: Criminal Intelligence (6)

 

Steve Thomas

[Steve Thomas]

13 hours ago, Steve Thomas said:

 While they were there, Gannaway called them and asked them to cross-reference the list of TSBD employees against the CID's Intelligence Files. When they did, they recognized Joe Molina's name. Gannaway told them to bring the whole file downtown.

https://books.google.com/books?id=7uT-47ysB5MC&pg=PA326&lpg=PA326&dq=Dallas+"+Roy+Westphal"&source=bl&ots=eii6yRhLo8&sig=nr0C2_dukxaBfdcQiFnDLg3ugKM&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjt-9Xpi8nRAhVpwFQKHZBBDX0Q6AEIHDAA#v=onepage&q=Dallas " Roy Westphal"&f=false

 

The police were staking out Joe Molina's house.

Report by Roy Westphal, Criminal Intelligence Section  November 30, 1963

Subject: Criminal Intelligence (4)

Joe Rodriguez Molina

DPD Archives. Box 15, Folder# 5, Item# 23

http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/box15.htm

(an automobile registered to Joe Molina was observed at his house).

 

Steve Thomas

[Guest]

Molina was checked out and reported on by various law enforcement agencies. Even a year after the DOJ investigated him.

 

The part you mentioned in LS book is on pg 330

As I was writing the report, the captain called and wanted to check the School Book Depository employee list with our files. We had handwritten, partial lists; some of them you couldn’t read the names. But we did find one, a member of the American GI Forum. The captain then instructed me to bring the entire file down to his office.`

INT can mean interview/intelligence/internal

would like to see the files referring to those numbers.

[Steve Thomas]

46 minutes ago, Bart Kamp said:

The part you mentioned in LS book is on pg 330

As I was writing the report, the captain called and wanted to check the School Book Depository employee list with our files. We had handwritten, partial lists; some of them you couldn’t read the names. But we did find one, a member of the American GI Forum. The captain then instructed me to bring the entire file down to his office.`

INT can mean interview/intelligence/internal

would like to see the files referring to those numbers.

Bart,

 

I don't think that INT stands for internal or interview.

 

People like Danny Arce and Bonnie Ray Williams are listed, and we know they were brought in.

Molina is listed, but he wasn't questioned until about 1:30 on Saturday morning.

 

No, I think the INT in that second column with a number alongside their names are people in the Dallas Police Intelligence files.

With Harvey Lee Oswald listed at 605 Elsbeth, with a NONE alongside his name tells me that that information did not come from the DPD Intelligence fields. It came from somewhere else.

In his WC testimony, Jack Revill was stumped when Allen Dulles kept pressing him where that address came from. I almost reads like Dulles knew, and he wanted to know how Revill knew. At one point, Rankin is actually questioning Dulles:

Mr. DULLES. This is an address he once lived at.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you know that?
Mr. DULLES. This is correct. I want to find out what he knows about it.

 

Steve Thomas