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Paz Marverde

Who changed the motorcade route?

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Just now, Paul Brancato said:

As always, we await some enterprising bilingual member to translate this, or find a way to get google to do so. 

Yes. Thank you 

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2 hours ago, Paz Marverde said:

Ron, here it is in fact the answer to your excellent post

FWIW, and IMHO: The key to this entire affair is not Byrd (who, while important remained very much in the background), but Jack Cason, the head and owner of the TSBD company.  His company --i.e., Oswald's employer starting on 10/15 or 10/16, and going on to 11/22) - - had been located across the street, at 501 Elm (as I recall); and in 1962 (approx) leased the building at 411 Elm (what then was called theTSBD); and then --in July 1963, according to the testimony of Roy Truly--actually  moved their operations into the building.  In other words, the building got its (later) name ("the TSBD")  from the company;  formerly, it was the distribution point for Chicago based grocery concern called "Sexton" (nothing to do with sex; just vegetables) and was often referred to as "the Sexton building". (And you will find that "old" usage actually present in one or more of the DPD radio broadcasts on 11/22/63.   DSL

 

Edited by David Lifton

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David Lifton,

I appreciate you posting here; I have Best Evidence and have seen your compelling interviews with the Bethesda staff - all very valuable testimony and information.

I do have a question related to JC's intensity around the TradeMart / motorcade decision.  What is your research around the seating controversy between he and Senator Ralph Yarborough?  I recall that JC REALLY wanted to ride with LBJ, with Yarborough in the limo with Kennedy.  What facts have you uncovered around that, and how does it tie into the input by JC on the luncheon location (and it's resulting motorcade route)?

I ask because I do not believe in coincidences, with so many incidents and factors that others on this forum regally deem to be "non-sinister".  Some of these include: the epileptic seizure, The SS opening LBJ's door at the moment of Altgens 5 while the president's SS staff does nothing except looking around,  umbrella man, dark-complected man, the yellow painted curb markers that "happened" to delineate the fatal shot zone, the man and woman casually walking east on the Elm sidewalk while UM and DCM are sitting down and everyone else is hustling up the GK towards the fence, etc.

Sure appreciate it!

Rick

 

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4 hours ago, Gene Kelly said:

David

I find your systems engineering analogy to be compelling.  Viewing Dallas not as isolated, but rather as part of a system or process (with redundancy, diversity, and failure considerations).  A five-city series of motorcades in just two days.  One wonders who the teams were in San Antonio, Houston and Ft. Worth, and why those "events" did not transpire or go forward.

Ironically, Jacqueline Kennedy rarely traveled with her husband on political trips but decided to fly with him to Texas (her first public appearance since the loss of son Patrick).  Extending this thinking, were there plans prior to Texas, such as when JFK traveled west, at the end of September, speaking in nine different states in less than a week?

Gene

Gene:  No, I don't think so. And here's why: To execute a plot of this nature, one has to have the cooperation of local law enforcement. They certainly don't "all" have to be corrupt, but there has to be "an element" that is (i.e., that is "recruitable").  So the places that would be most amenable to "recruitment" in such a scheme, would be locations where  civil rights was a hot button (and where JFK (and RFK, as AG) were deeply resented).  So the Deep South would be the preferred location.  For anyone who wants to educate themselves on how "plot recruitment"  (and the "political environment") works, I highly recommend Luttwak's "Coup d'Etat," first published in 1969,  still in print, and which has become a classic in the field. From the Amazon writeup,

QUOTE:

Editorial Reviews

This short book is…wicked, truthful, and entertaining. The author, after outlining a step-by-step procedure for bringing about a coup, analyzes modern (post–Second World War) coups, and points out why some succeeded and others failed. (New Yorker)

An extraordinarily competent and well-written work, displaying very wide knowledge of the ways in which coups, both successful and unsuccessful, have actually been organized. (Times Literary Supplement)

Coup d'État demonstrates that scholarly analysis can be good social science and at the same time fun to read. It is nontechnical in approach and informal in style… Moreover, Edward Luttwak's familiarity with the basic concepts and problems of political science is evident throughout. He is seldom superficial and never trivial in his treatment of his subject. The result is a book of value to everyone interested in the sudden changes of government that occur so frequently in many parts of the world and also curious as to why they so often seem to result in more of the same… We can all have the satisfaction of understanding the strategies and techniques employed, and we can enjoy learning them from this lucid and witty book. (Virginia Quarterly Review)

   UNQUOTE

I read this book--indeed, studied it--back in 1969, when it was first published, and it was a real "eye-opening" experience.  A must read.  Bottom line: the plot that took Kennedy's life could not have been synthesized in an "ordinary" political environment. There had to be an undercurrent of prejudice and hostility.  This was plainly apparent when I first started reading the Dallas Morning News on microfilm, and happened to order films from the summer of 1960, because I wanted to explore how the "locals" reacted to LBJ getting on the 1960 ticket.  To my considerable surprise, (when I first read these microfilms) the entire tone was as if the Civil War had ended "yesterday."  Anyway, that was Dallas politics, and I'm sure the same was true in other cities in the deep south.  However: you could not tell JFK "Oh Mr. President, you absolutely must make this trip to Okeephenokee, Mississippi," whereas one could (and did) make that sort of argument about going to Texas, and visiting the major cities there (which is exactly how the Dallas trip was sold--not by itself, and in isolation, but by a broader "pitch.".   And so it was under the guise of "political necessity" (my phrase) that JFK was "lured" (Jackie's phrase) to make the Texas trip. The final result: Five cities, 10 motorcades. Dallas was the seventh motorcade, in a two day trip.   If JFK was more prudent, I don't think he would ever have made the trip, but --as RFK himself later admitted--if he (RFK)  had tried to veto the trip, JFK would simply have laughed and gone ahead with it, anyway.  As is well known, JFK had this thing about "courage," and he also had a thing about fate. And, I'm sorry to say this, he was a bit of a gambler. So this was a situation in which, IMHO, he gambled and lost.  Also, and I'm sorry to put it so bluntly, he never realized (or even suspected) that elements of the Secret Service were disloyal, and that was a key factor.  There were people connected with his security that were a part of this plot, and from the time they were recruited, JFK was a "dead man walking."   Also note: JFK's  (and RFK's concerns) centered around a General Walker type "screwball,: and not around the more "establishment type" plot that  was (more or less) an "inside job" and was the plot that actually took his life.   But that's another story. Again: read Luttwak.

DSL

6/4/2018 - 10 AM PDT

South Orange County, California

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2 hours ago, Paz Marverde said:

Ron, here it is in fact the answer to your excellent post

Paz (and others): I don't believe the key to this (mystery) is Byrd at all. Yes, he's "there" but he's "in the background"--way in the background. The key is Jack Cason, the owner (and/or President) of the Texas School Book Depository, the company.  Until the spring of 1963, they were in another location (across the street, at 501 Elm, as I recall); anyway, they "moved into" (that is "leased") the building that we now call the TSBD, in late 1962 (approx); and, according to Roy Truly, actualluy "moved in" (my words) in July 1963.  Somewhere in this general time frame, the bilding was (in effect) re-named from what it had been (because it housed the Sexton Grocery concern) to the "Texas School Book Depository" who had then leased the space; and it was at that point that a number of changes were made, which included the following: I believe part of it (on the exterior) was repainted, and the words "Texas School Book Depository" was actually added.

 

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2 hours ago, Paz Marverde said:

Ron, here it is in fact the answer to your excellent post

Paz (and others): I don't believe the key to this (mystery) is Byrd at all. Yes, he's "there" but he's "in the background"--way in the background. The key is Jack Cason, the owner (and/or President) of the Texas School Book Depository, the company.  Until the spring of 1963, they were in another location (across the street, at 501 Elm, as I recall); anyway, they "moved into" (that is "leased") the building that we now call the TSBD, in late 1962 (approx); and, according to Roy Truly, actualluy "moved in" (my words) in July 1963.  Somewhere in this general time frame, the bilding was (in effect) re-named from what it had been (because it housed the Sexton Grocery concern) to the "Texas School Book Depository" who had then leased the space; and it was at that point that a number of changes were made, which included the following: I believe part of it (on the exterior) was repainted, and the words "Texas School Book Depository" was actually added.

 

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2 hours ago, Paz Marverde said:

Ron, here it is in fact the answer to your excellent post

Paz (and others): I don't believe the key to this (mystery) is Byrd at all. Yes, he's "there" but he's "in the background"--way in the background. The key is Jack Cason, the owner (and/or President) of the Texas School Book Depository, the company.  Until the spring of 1963, they were in another location (across the street, at 501 Elm, as I recall); anyway, they "moved into" (that is "leased") the building that we now call the TSBD, in late 1962 (approx); and, according to Roy Truly, actualluy "moved in" (my words) in July 1963.  Somewhere in this general time frame, the bilding was (in effect) re-named from what it had been (because it housed the Sexton Grocery concern) to the "Texas School Book Depository" who had then leased the space; and it was at that point that a number of changes were made, which included the following: I believe part of it (on the exterior) was repainted, and the words "Texas School Book Depository" was actually added.

 

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2 hours ago, Paz Marverde said:

Ron, here it is in fact the answer to your excellent post

Paz (and others): I don't believe the key to this (mystery) is Byrd at all. Yes, he's "there" but he's "in the background"--way in the background. The key is Jack Cason, the owner (and/or President) of the Texas School Book Depository, the company.  Until the spring of 1963, they were in another location (across the street, at 501 Elm, as I recall); anyway, they "moved into" (that is "leased") the building that we now call the TSBD, in late 1962 (approx); and, according to Roy Truly, actualluy "moved in" (my words) in July 1963.  Somewhere in this general time frame, the bilding was (in effect) re-named from what it had been (because it housed the Sexton Grocery concern) to the "Texas School Book Depository" who had then leased the space; and it was at that point that a number of changes were made, which included the following: I believe part of it (on the exterior) was repainted, and the words "Texas School Book Depository" was actually added.

DSL NOTE:  Re typographical confusion at the end of the previous page:  I DO NOT understand why this post has "overlapped" with what I had written, previously; nor do I know how to "fix it."

Edited by David Lifton

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30 minutes ago, Rick McTague said:

David Lifton,

I appreciate you posting here; I have Best Evidence and have seen your compelling interviews with the Bethesda staff - all very valuable testimony and information.

I do have a question related to JC's intensity around the TradeMart / motorcade decision.  What is your research around the seating controversy between he and Senator Ralph Yarborough?  I recall that JC REALLY wanted to ride with LBJ, with Yarborough in the limo with Kennedy.  What facts have you uncovered around that, and how does it tie into the input by JC on the luncheon location (and it's resulting motorcade route)?

I ask because I do not believe in coincidences, with so many incidents and factors that others on this forum regally deem to be "non-sinister".  Some of these include: the epileptic seizure, The SS opening LBJ's door at the moment of Altgens 5 while the president's SS staff does nothing except looking around,  umbrella man, dark-complected man, the yellow painted curb markers that "happened" to delineate the fatal shot zone, the man and woman casually walking east on the Elm sidewalk while UM and DCM are sitting down and everyone else is hustling up the GK towards the fence, etc.

Sure appreciate it!

Rick

 

Its my understanding that Governor JC "definitely" wanted to ride with JFK; and that, in terms of attempting to "re-arrange" any of this, it was LBJ who had attempted (or was attempting) to get Jackie to ride in his car.  (I think this is in either Manchester or Bishop; but I'm not sure).

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My attempt to patch up David’s earlier post:

David Lifton

Advanced Member
Members
873 posts
Gender:Male
Posted 53 minutes ago
 
5 hours ago, Gene Kelly said:

“David

I find your systems engineering analogy to be compelling.  Viewing Dallas not as isolated, but rather as part of a system or process (with redundancy, diversity, and failure considerations).  A five-city series of motorcades in just two days.  One wonders who the teams were in San Antonio, Houston and Ft. Worth, and why those "events" did not transpire or go forward.

Ironically, Jacqueline Kennedy rarely traveled with her husband on political trips but decided to fly with him to Texas (her first public appearance since the loss of son Patrick).  Extending this thinking, were there plans prior to Texas, such as when JFK traveled west, at the end of September, speaking in nine different states in less than a week?

Gene”

Gene:  No, I don't think so. And here's why: To execute a plot of this nature, one has to have the cooperation of local law enforcement. They certainly don't "all" have to be corrupt, but there has to be "an element" that is (i.e., that is "recruitable").  So the places that would be most amenable to "recruitment" in such a scheme, would be locations where  civil rights was a hot button (and where JFK (and RFK, as AG) were deeply resented).  So the Deep South would be the preferred location.  For anyone who wants to educate themselves on how "plot recruitment"  (and the "political environment") works, I highly recommend Luttwak's "Coup d'Etat," first published in 1969,  still in print, and which has become a classic in the field. From the Amazon writeup,

QUOTE:

Editorial Reviews

This short book is…wicked, truthful, and entertaining. The author, after outlining a step-by-step procedure for bringing about a coup, analyzes modern (post–Second World War) coups, and points out why some succeeded and others failed. (New Yorker)

An extraordinarily competent and well-written work, displaying very wide knowledge of the ways in which coups, both successful and unsuccessful, have actually been organized. (Times Literary Supplement)

Coup d'État demonstrates that scholarly analysis can be good social science and at the same time fun to read. It is nontechnical in approach and informal in style… Moreover, Edward Luttwak's familiarity with the basic concepts and problems of political science is evident throughout. He is seldom superficial and never trivial in his treatment of his subject. The result is a book of value to everyone interested in the sudden changes of government that occur so frequently in many parts of the world and also curious as to why they so often seem to result in more of the same… We can all have the satisfaction of understanding the strategies and techniques employed, and we can enjoy learning them from this lucid and witty book. (Virginia Quarterly Review)
   
UNQUOTE

I read this book--indeed, studied it--back in 1969, when it was first published, and it was a real "eye-opening" experience.  A must read.  Bottom line: the plot that took Kennedy's life could not have been synthesized in an "ordinary" political environment. There had to be an undercurrent of prejudice and hostility.  This was plainly apparent when I first started reading the Dallas Morning News on microfilm, and happened to order films from the summer of 1960, because I wanted to explore how the "locals" reacted to LBJ getting on the 1960 ticket.  To my considerable surprise, (when I first read these microfilms) the entire tone was as if the Civil War had ended "yesterday."  Anyway, that was Dallas politics, and I'm sure the same was true in other cities in the deep south.  However: you could not tell JFK "Oh Mr. President, you absolutely must make this trip to Okeephenokee, Mississippi," whereas one could (and did) make that sort of argument about going to Texas, and visiting the major cities there (which is exactly how the Dallas trip was sold--not by itself, and in isolation, but by a broader "pitch.".   And so it was under the guise of "political necessity" (my phrase) that JFK was "lured" (Jackie's phrase) to make the Texas trip. The final result: Five cities, 10 motorcades. Dallas was the seventh motorcade, in a two day trip.   If JFK was more prudent, I don't think he would ever have made the trip, but --as RFK himself later admitted--if he (RFK)  had tried to veto the trip, JFK would simply have laughed and gone ahead with it, anyway.  As is well known, JFK had this thing about "courage," and he also had a thing about fate. And, I'm sorry to say this, he was a bit of a gambler. So this was a situation in which, IMHO, he gambled and lost.  Also, and I'm sorry to put it so bluntly, he never realized (or even suspected) that elements of the Secret Service were disloyal, and that was a key factor.  There were people connected with his security that were a part of this plot, and from the time they were recruited, JFK was a "dead man walking."   Also note: JFK's  (and RFK's concerns) centered around a General Walker type "screwball,: and not around the more "establishment type" plot that  was (more or less) an "inside job" and was the plot that actually took his life.   But that's another story. Again: read Luttwak.

DSL

6/4/2018 - 10 AM PDT

South Orange County, California
 

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6 hours ago, Tom Hume said:

My attempt to patch up David’s earlier post:

David Lifton

Advanced Member
Members
873 posts
Gender:Male
Posted 53 minutes ago
 
5 hours ago, Gene Kelly said:

“David

I find your systems engineering analogy to be compelling.  Viewing Dallas not as isolated, but rather as part of a system or process (with redundancy, diversity, and failure considerations).  A five-city series of motorcades in just two days.  One wonders who the teams were in San Antonio, Houston and Ft. Worth, and why those "events" did not transpire or go forward.

Ironically, Jacqueline Kennedy rarely traveled with her husband on political trips but decided to fly with him to Texas (her first public appearance since the loss of son Patrick).  Extending this thinking, were there plans prior to Texas, such as when JFK traveled west, at the end of September, speaking in nine different states in less than a week?

Gene”

Gene:  No, I don't think so. And here's why: To execute a plot of this nature, one has to have the cooperation of local law enforcement. They certainly don't "all" have to be corrupt, but there has to be "an element" that is (i.e., that is "recruitable").  So the places that would be most amenable to "recruitment" in such a scheme, would be locations where  civil rights was a hot button (and where JFK (and RFK, as AG) were deeply resented).  So the Deep South would be the preferred location.  For anyone who wants to educate themselves on how "plot recruitment"  (and the "political environment") works, I highly recommend Luttwak's "Coup d'Etat," first published in 1969,  still in print, and which has become a classic in the field. From the Amazon writeup,

QUOTE:

Editorial Reviews

This short book is…wicked, truthful, and entertaining. The author, after outlining a step-by-step procedure for bringing about a coup, analyzes modern (post–Second World War) coups, and points out why some succeeded and others failed. (New Yorker)

An extraordinarily competent and well-written work, displaying very wide knowledge of the ways in which coups, both successful and unsuccessful, have actually been organized. (Times Literary Supplement)

Coup d'État demonstrates that scholarly analysis can be good social science and at the same time fun to read. It is nontechnical in approach and informal in style… Moreover, Edward Luttwak's familiarity with the basic concepts and problems of political science is evident throughout. He is seldom superficial and never trivial in his treatment of his subject. The result is a book of value to everyone interested in the sudden changes of government that occur so frequently in many parts of the world and also curious as to why they so often seem to result in more of the same… We can all have the satisfaction of understanding the strategies and techniques employed, and we can enjoy learning them from this lucid and witty book. (Virginia Quarterly Review)
   
UNQUOTE

I read this book--indeed, studied it--back in 1969, when it was first published, and it was a real "eye-opening" experience.  A must read.  Bottom line: the plot that took Kennedy's life could not have been synthesized in an "ordinary" political environment. There had to be an undercurrent of prejudice and hostility.  This was plainly apparent when I first started reading the Dallas Morning News on microfilm, and happened to order films from the summer of 1960, because I wanted to explore how the "locals" reacted to LBJ getting on the 1960 ticket.  To my considerable surprise, (when I first read these microfilms) the entire tone was as if the Civil War had ended "yesterday."  Anyway, that was Dallas politics, and I'm sure the same was true in other cities in the deep south.  However: you could not tell JFK "Oh Mr. President, you absolutely must make this trip to Okeephenokee, Mississippi," whereas one could (and did) make that sort of argument about going to Texas, and visiting the major cities there (which is exactly how the Dallas trip was sold--not by itself, and in isolation, but by a broader "pitch.".   And so it was under the guise of "political necessity" (my phrase) that JFK was "lured" (Jackie's phrase) to make the Texas trip. The final result: Five cities, 10 motorcades. Dallas was the seventh motorcade, in a two day trip.   If JFK was more prudent, I don't think he would ever have made the trip, but --as RFK himself later admitted--if he (RFK)  had tried to veto the trip, JFK would simply have laughed and gone ahead with it, anyway.  As is well known, JFK had this thing about "courage," and he also had a thing about fate. And, I'm sorry to say this, he was a bit of a gambler. So this was a situation in which, IMHO, he gambled and lost.  Also, and I'm sorry to put it so bluntly, he never realized (or even suspected) that elements of the Secret Service were disloyal, and that was a key factor.  There were people connected with his security that were a part of this plot, and from the time they were recruited, JFK was a "dead man walking."   Also note: JFK's  (and RFK's concerns) centered around a General Walker type "screwball",: and not around the more "establishment type" plot that  was (more or less) an "inside job" and was the plot that actually took his life.   But that's another story. Again: read Luttwak.

DSL

6/4/2018 - 10 AM PDT

South Orange County, California
 

Tom:  Thanks so much for unscrambling my post.  DSL

Edited by David Lifton

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1 hour ago, David Lifton said:

I know how to "fix it."

Wow, David. You quoted me in this very same thread ... how many times? Oh, yes, six times. Wow, what a honor. The point is: how is it that a CMC member is connected to the Byrd owner of the 411 Elm Street? Got it?

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7 hours ago, Rick McTague said:

David Lifton,

I appreciate you posting here; I have Best Evidence and have seen your compelling interviews with the Bethesda staff - all very valuable testimony and information.

I do have a question related to JC's intensity around the TradeMart / motorcade decision.  What is your research around the seating controversy between he and Senator Ralph Yarborough?  I recall that JC REALLY wanted to ride with LBJ, with Yarborough in the limo with Kennedy.  What facts have you uncovered around that, and how does it tie into the input by JC on the luncheon location (and it's resulting motorcade route)?

I ask because I do not believe in coincidences, with so many incidents and factors that others on this forum regally deem to be "non-sinister".  Some of these include: the epileptic seizure, The SS opening LBJ's door at the moment of Altgens 5 while the president's SS staff does nothing except looking around,  umbrella man, dark-complected man, the yellow painted curb markers that "happened" to delineate the fatal shot zone, the man and woman casually walking east on the Elm sidewalk while UM and DCM are sitting down and everyone else is hustling up the GK towards the fence, etc.

Sure appreciate it!

Rick

 

Rick:  Quick answers without detail;  will return and expand later, when time permits:

Epileptic seizure: Completely genuine.

SS contrast between Kellerman and agents guarding LBJ...:  Agreed.  Absurdly different. A very stark contrast between the two.

Umbrella man:  Genuine.Not part of any plot. (Will explain later. Can't take the time just now).

DC man: Don't know.

Yellow painted curb: Extraordinarily important.

The rest (man, woman etc):  no opinion.

Later. . . DSL

 

 

Edited by David Lifton

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12 minutes ago, Paz Marverde said:

Wow, David. You quoted me in this very same thread ... how many times? Oh, yes, six times. Wow, what a honor. The point is: how is it that a CMC member is connected to the Byrd owner of the 411 Elm Street? Got it?

Byrd was the owner of the building, but. . . he didn't "do" anything.

Cason was (more or less) directly "on site" and was involved (as Truly's boss) in the hiring of Oswald.

DSL

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Byrd was the owner of the building, but. . . he didn't "do" anything.

Cason was (more or less) directly "on site" and was involved (as Truly's boss) in the hiring of Oswald.

DSL

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