Michael Collins Piper: Final Judgement

[Jeff Dahlstrom]

Well, it looks like you're wrong Len. The George article exists. Dawn just posted it.

BTW Jeff, are you going to offer your opinions? I see you've been reading the thread. It's really your thread, after all.

Mark,

Thanks for the invitation to post on the Piper book, and also thank you to John Simkin for the initial post. I had simply sent John, Debra Conway, and Larry Hancock a question about the book in what I thought was a private email. I have not read Piper's book yet so I have no idea whether it is well researched or presented with or without an anti-semitic slant. I was amused at the strong opposition to Piper's thesis by researchers here that had not read Piper's book. Someone got enough to comment by "skimming" the material.

Apparently 30,000 readers have purchased the book and any book that is that hard to obtain, (can't be found in any San Diego Library, nor ordered from main stream book stores) I want to know what he has to say.

I respect the large reservoir of knowledge on this forum and was frustrated that I could not find any comments about it here. I know a few of you have read Piper's Final Judgement and appreciated the informed skeptical comments prior to getting my hands on my Sixth edition released in 2005.

I joined your forum after seeing Oliver Stone's movie again on late night TV early last year, and was curious if anyone had solved the initial crime of the 20th century and then I got obsessed with discoverieng the mystery of the murder of 3,000 people in NYC on 9/11/01.

When my research revealed that 9/11 was NOT caused by Osama Bin Laden and 19 Arab cave dwellers with laptops in Afghanistan, it became clear to me that a cabal in the United States murdered our fellow citizens for very sinister and gready reasons... war against arabs in Iraq, and Afghanistan, and now possibly Iran, and obscene war profits for the same KBR favored by LBJ in 1964. 9/11 was a military operation very similar to JFK's assassination including the patsies of Bin Laden and Oswald. It seems very plausible to me that Mossad/Israel have method, motive, and opportunity in both crimes. Even more likely with the controlled press and CIA propaganda in Operation Mockingbird in the 1960's and now the five corporate owners of all news media and the Zionist/Neoconservatives controlling our current government. Very ominous times when compared to 1963.

Israel did not have nuclear weapons in 1963 and the fact that JFK was opposed to allowing a nuclear power in the Middle East powder keg oviously angered Ben Gurion's nationalist desire to defend his country from overwhelming odds in an arab world. Now Israel has 200 to 300 nuclear bombs and the ability to deliver them, and they may get their chance in Iran... very soon. JFK was right to oppose Israel's nuclear ambitions and apparently LBJ was not concerned. Before Piper's book, my primary suspect for JFK's death was LBJ, now it appears that it may have been Israeli protaganists.

Thanks for all your well informed input, I will have more to say after reading Piper's book. Perhaps John Simkin could invite Michael C. Piper to defend his thesis in this forum against his critics here that have not read the book... yet. I have enjoyed reading the comments other authors here, like Jim Marrs and Larry Hancock and many others. What do you say, John?

Jeff D.

http://www.americanfreepress.net/Final_Judgment.pdf

[Tim Gratz]

Jeff:

I have read much of "Final Judgment".

As I said, it has no evidence to support its scenario, and Collins Piper is an anti-semitic with an agenda.

Are you an anti-semite as well? Why the reference to Zionist/Neoconservatives?

Your comments on a 9-11 conspiracy are both laughable and pitiful. Why don't you share your "research" on this? I am sure your research consists of no more than reading demented propaganda on the Internet.

Edited February 9, 2006 by Tim Gratz

[Jeff Dahlstrom]

Jeff:

I have read much of "Final Judgment".

As I said, it has no evidence to support its scenario, and Collins Piper is an anti-semitic with an agenda.

Are you an anti-semite as well? Why the reference to Zionist/Neoconservatives?

Your comments on a 9-11 conspiracy are both laughable and pitiful. Why don't you share your "research" on this? I am sure your research consists of no more than reading demented propaganda on the Internet.

Tim,

I appreciate that you have "skimmed" Piper's thesis and book and have labeled it anti-semitic dribble. I don't know what Piper says, yet because the Israeli/Neocon lobby in America makes his book which is protected by the first ammendment of the Constitution, difficult to find (and read).

I'm glad my comments on 9-11 provided you a brief modicum of humor... after all laughter heals many ailments. As for the source of my concerns about your Republican Neocon pals in the Pentagon, White House, controlled press, and Washington DC think tanks like PNAC, that have created the myth of a "Global War on Terrorism", I can assure you that I actually read as opposed to "skimmed":

1) 9/11 Commission Report (Kean, Zelikov)

2) 9/11 Commission Report: Ommissions and Distortions, David Ray Griffin

3) The New Pearl Harbor, David Ray Griffin

4) Crossing the Rubicon, Michael Rupert

5) Imperial Hubris, Anonymous (CIA)

6) Painfull Deceptions, Eric Huffschmidt

7) One Way Ticket to Crawford, Texas, Karl Schwarz

8) 9/11 Synthetic Terror, MADE IN THE USA, Webster G. Tarpley (the best, IMO)

9) Neoconned, (Various authors)

10) Neoconned, Again, (Various authors)

Videos:

1) In Plane Site

2) Painfull Deceptions

3) Confronting the Evidence: A Call to Reopen the 9/11 Investigation.

My political persuasion, Tim, was a Republican that voted for Nixon twice and GW Bush twice (aaargh). In addition, I personally know your pal Donald Segretti. I am now adamantly and most emphatically an Independent voter and hope that the current lunatic occupants of the White House don't cause complete nuclear annihilation of the entire planet. We need another Pete McCloskey in Washington and someone that files Articles of Impeachment of Bush AND Cheney in Congress... now.

Jeff D.

[Tim Gratz]

Jeff wrote:

I don't know what Piper says, yet because the Israeli/Neocon lobby in America makes his book which is protected by the first ammendment of the Constitution, difficult to find (and read).

The more you write the more I suspect you have anti-semitic tendencies yourself.

Perhaps you can enlighten us how the Israeli/Neocon lobby is making "Final Judgment" difficult to find and read?

And by the way, I said I read most of "Final Judgment". Why do you claim that I said I "skimmed" it?

If you cannot read a simple post, I don't think it would require a nefarious neocon to make "Final Judgment" difficult for you to read. I am most curious how you think the neocons could make "Final Judgment" difficult to read (if found).

And by the way, you can buy Piper's trash for $23.94 here:

http://www.alibris.com/search/search.cfm?S...wkL6qshrJGeWG1w

It took me all of sixty seconds to find that source. I guess the nefarious neocons must be asleep at the wheel tonight! LOL!!

P.S. Give my regards to Segretti, a man not smart enough to know that what he was doing would inevitably get Richard Nixon into trouble, and not smart enough to avoid leaving a paper trail of all or most of his activities.

Edited February 9, 2006 by Tim Gratz

[Tim Gratz]

I suggest that Michael Collins Piper might be secretly receiving funds from anti-Israeli and/or pro-Palestinian extermist groups to advance his theories. As we know, some of these groups have ties to terrorists (I am not however suggesting that Mr. Piper himself has connections to terrorists or advocates or supports terroriosm).

Edited February 9, 2006 by Tim Gratz

[Tim Gratz]

Jeff wrote:

Israel did not have nuclear weapons in 1963 and the fact that JFK was opposed to allowing a nuclear power in the Middle East powder keg oviously [sic] angered Ben Gurion's nationalist desire to defend his country from overwhelming odds in an arab world.

Jeff, did you ever consider the possibility that it is Israel's possession of nuclear weapons that kept that powder keg from exploding?

I believe it was the possession of nuclear weapons by both the US and the Soviet Union that kept the Cold War from becoming "hot". We know that JFK's restrained actions in the CMC were influenced in large part by his concern over the consequences of a nuclear exchange.

[Guest Stephen Turner]

IWhen my research revealed that 9/11 was NOT caused by Osama Bin Laden and 19 Arab cave dwellers with laptops in Afghanistan, it became clear to me that a cabal in the United States murdered our fellow citizens for very sinister and gready reasons... war against arabs in Iraq, and Afghanistan, and now possibly Iran, and obscene war profits for the same KBR favored by LBJ in 1964. 9/11 was a military operation very similar to JFK's assassination including the patsies of Bin Laden and Oswald. It seems very plausible to me that Mossad/Israel have method, motive, and opportunity in both crimes. Even more likely with the controlled press and CIA propaganda in Operation Mockingbird in the 1960's and now the five corporate owners of all news media and the Zionist/Neoconservatives controlling our current government. Very ominous times when compared to 1963.

http://www.americanfreepress.net/Final_Judgment.pdf

Jeff, do you have any hard evidence that will support the above statement? It would appear that I have researched many of the same areas as yourself, and wish I could make as bold a claim.. regards, Steve.

[Tim Gratz]

Jeff wrote:

. . .and now the five corporate owners of all news media and the Zionist/Neoconservatives controlling our current government.

Richard Nixon also believed that the "Zionists" controlled the media and were "out to get him".

Proving that political lunancy and anti-semitism drawfs ideology.

[Tim Gratz]

Of course we all know that RFK was a big supporter of Israel.

If Israel had killed JFK, it is preposterous to assume that RFK would not have at least suspected it. If he did not so suspect, either Israel did not do it or RFK was an idiot.

Does not RFK's steadfast support of Israel disprove the anti-semitic ravings of Piper?

[Jeff Dahlstrom]

Stephen,

Jeff, do you have any hard evidence that will support the above statement? It would appear that I have researched many of the same areas as yourself, and wish I could make as bold a claim.. regards, Steve.

The most authoritive article published on the Internet debunking the 9/11 government myth nonsense is the paper presented by Physics Professor from Brigham Young University, Stephen Jones:

http://www.physics.byu.edu/research/energy/htm7.html

As to the complicity of elements of our own government in 9/11 as opposed to Osama Bin Laden the "patsy", I would recommend Webster Tarpley's book, 9/11 Synthetic Terror: Made in the USA

You can listen to interviews of Mr. Tarpley about his theories, book, and evidence on Guns and Butter and WingTV at the following links:

http://www.kpfa.org/archives/index.php?arc...age=2&type=news

http://www.kpfa.org/archives/index.php?arc...age=2&type=news

http://911verses.com/911/underground/WING_...y_Interview.MP3

Tim,

My original point about Michael Collins Piper's Final Judgement, was that I have not read his book, yet. Mark invited me to post my comments in this thread since my question to John Simkin was what started this discussion. My problem with your comments to me here, is your suggestion that Piper is anti-semitic and therefore, because I want to read his book, I am also anti-semitic. That is utterly rediculous. Did I accuse you of being a member of the Anti Defamation League or AIPAC? No.

I just want to know what happened that day (9/11) and hope that exposing the truth will prevent the real conspirators from creating more loss of innocent lives to create more histeria and fear to justify the next invasion and conquest in a country like Iran. And the erosion of our civil liberties protected in the US Constitution which I fought to protect during the Vietnam War.

I believe Dick Cheney is on record saying that any act of terror on American soil done by any perpetrator, would be the cause for military action against Iran (with nukes). That to me is pure lunacy at the highest levels of our government. (And I voted for Bush/Cheney... twice, "shame on me").

Jeff D.

[Mark Stapleton]

Mark Stapleton wrote:

First, no-one's saying that Israel "did it". In an earlier post I agreed with Ron that Israel couldn't possibly have "done it" by themselves. The speculation here is one of possible Israeli Government involvement. Surely you understand the difference between suggesting that they "did it" and suggesting they might have been "involved". The former implies sole responsibility and the latter implies joint responsibility. Please use more care when inferring what others are suggesting. You also used this inflammatory ploy when it was suggested by Forum members that Douglas Dillon warranted some focus. Nobody ever suggested Douglas Dillon "did it" but you started a thread with the title, "Did Dillon do it".

More claptrap.

When Mark talks about "sole responsibility" versus "joint responsibility" that is a distinction without a difference. Why make it?

If two people get together and conspire to murder someone, and both shoot at him, even if one misses, both are both legally and morally responsible for the murder. Similarly if one person buys the gun and ammunition and the other does the deed. Use any scenario you want. If two people jointly murder someone, they are as responsible (as they should be) as one person acting alone.

It does not take a legal scholar or a moral ethicist to figure that one out. It is a no-brainer.

Clearly--CLEARLY-one casts as much scorn and moral approbation on Israel if one implies that Israel conspired with another party to kill Kennedy as one would if one claimed Israel by itself orchestrated the assassination.

Can we agree on that much Mark?

Mark, I suspect that few sane people would give a rodent's derriere about your suspicion that Israel participated in the assassination. Nevertheless, I repeat my point that I believe it is morally wrong to posit Israel as a Kennedy killer without anything more than your totally unfounded suspicion.

And let us face it: the only people who have published books or articles on the "Israel did it" scenario are anti-semites who deny that the Holocaust ever existed and advance similar wacky theories. As I recall one such person was even banned from this forum.

Your point about the Cohen book is useless. All that book implies is that Israel had a motive to prefer a different American President than JFK. Motive alone is insufficient to tar someone or some state as a suspect.

The Collins Piper book is nothing but Collins Piper's sophisticated effort to advance his anti-semitic agenda. It contains no evidence whatsoever to link Israel to the assassination.

Wow. Your hysterical over-reaction on this issue rivals your infamous performance in regard to Douglas Dillon's name being mentioned. Are you afraid that something may be uncovered?

You see, the thing that amuses me (and, I assume, some Forum members) is that, assuming you are right and Israel had no involvement, then why not just sit back and allow people who believe there may be something in this issue to make a fool of themselves? Then you can drop by later and say, "I told you so". Why the frantic urgency to censor debate?

Your bizarre comment that it is morally wrong to suggest Israel's possible involvement is one of the stupidest comments I've ever read from you--and you've posted hundreds of stupid comments. Why is it "morally wrong" to suggest Israel and not "morally wrong" to suggest the United States, the Soviet Union, Cuba, the CIA, KGB, the Secret Service, the DPD, LBJ, Marcello, Lansky, Trafficante, Hunt, Nixon, Hoover, Hughes, Dulles, Walker, Willoughby, the Joint Chiefs, the Suite 8F group or any one of a hundred other suspects? Get a grip, man.

And my point about the Cohen book is "useless"? You haven't even read the book. You spent much time berating others for being insufficiently read then condemn a very scholarly work as useless without even reading a word. The cover of Avner Cohen's book displays the following endorsement: "Cohen's book will necessitate the rewriting of Israel's entire history"--Tom Segev, Ha'aretz. Are you now claiming Segev is an anti-Semite and Ha'aretz an anti-Semitic publication?

You've really lost it here, Tim. You haven't the faintest idea what you're talking about.

[Guest Stephen Turner]

Stephen,

Jeff, do you have any hard evidence that will support the above statement? It would appear that I have researched many of the same areas as yourself, and wish I could make as bold a claim.. regards, Steve.

The most authoritive article published on the Internet debunking the 9/11 government myth nonsense is the paper presented by Physics Professor from Brigham Young University, Stephen Jones:

http://www.physics.byu.edu/research/energy/htm7.html

As to the complicity of elements of our own government in 9/11 as opposed to Osama Bin Laden the "patsy", I would recommend Webster Tarpley's book, 9/11 Synthetic Terror: Made in the USA

You can listen to interviews of Mr. Tarpley about his theories, book, and evidence on Guns and Butter and WingTV at the following links:

http://www.kpfa.org/archives/index.php?arc...age=2&type=news

http://www.kpfa.org/archives/index.php?arc...age=2&type=news

http://911verses.com/911/underground/WING_...y_Interview.MP3

Jeff, I have seen most of this before, as I said, I have done my own research, but thank you.

I notice that Professor Jones background is Physics, not structural engineering,or Failure analysis. Can you cite one Engineer who claims the Towers fell because of planted explosives? Steve.

[Ron Ecker]

Steve,

As you probably know, Professor Jones and Jim Fetzer have founded a group called Scholars for 9/11 Truth (see link below). I recently read Jones comment, though I can't now find the source, that they have received emails from engineers and others in support of their work.

It's understandable that engineers who believe, contrary to the official government engineering "findings", that the towers were brought down by controlled demolition might not want to be identified yet. Until the problems with the official story become better known, I imagine that speaking out on the subject by an engineer can be a real career killer.

Hopefully some will arise who put truth above career.

http://www.axisoflogic.com/artman/publish/...ter_20912.shtml

Ron

[Mark Stapleton]

Well, it looks like you're wrong Len. The George article exists. Dawn just posted it.

BTW Jeff, are you going to offer your opinions? I see you've been reading the thread. It's really your thread, after all.

Mark,

Thanks for the invitation to post on the Piper book, and also thank you to John Simkin for the initial post. I had simply sent John, Debra Conway, and Larry Hancock a question about the book in what I thought was a private email. I have not read Piper's book yet so I have no idea whether it is well researched or presented with or without an anti-semitic slant. I was amused at the strong opposition to Piper's thesis by researchers here that had not read Piper's book. Someone got enough to comment by "skimming" the material.

Apparently 30,000 readers have purchased the book and any book that is that hard to obtain, (can't be found in any San Diego Library, nor ordered from main stream book stores) I want to know what he has to say.

I respect the large reservoir of knowledge on this forum and was frustrated that I could not find any comments about it here. I know a few of you have read Piper's Final Judgement and appreciated the informed skeptical comments prior to getting my hands on my Sixth edition released in 2005.

I joined your forum after seeing Oliver Stone's movie again on late night TV early last year, and was curious if anyone had solved the initial crime of the 20th century and then I got obsessed with discoverieng the mystery of the murder of 3,000 people in NYC on 9/11/01.

When my research revealed that 9/11 was NOT caused by Osama Bin Laden and 19 Arab cave dwellers with laptops in Afghanistan, it became clear to me that a cabal in the United States murdered our fellow citizens for very sinister and gready reasons... war against arabs in Iraq, and Afghanistan, and now possibly Iran, and obscene war profits for the same KBR favored by LBJ in 1964. 9/11 was a military operation very similar to JFK's assassination including the patsies of Bin Laden and Oswald. It seems very plausible to me that Mossad/Israel have method, motive, and opportunity in both crimes. Even more likely with the controlled press and CIA propaganda in Operation Mockingbird in the 1960's and now the five corporate owners of all news media and the Zionist/Neoconservatives controlling our current government. Very ominous times when compared to 1963.

Israel did not have nuclear weapons in 1963 and the fact that JFK was opposed to allowing a nuclear power in the Middle East powder keg oviously angered Ben Gurion's nationalist desire to defend his country from overwhelming odds in an arab world. Now Israel has 200 to 300 nuclear bombs and the ability to deliver them, and they may get their chance in Iran... very soon. JFK was right to oppose Israel's nuclear ambitions and apparently LBJ was not concerned. Before Piper's book, my primary suspect for JFK's death was LBJ, now it appears that it may have been Israeli protaganists.

Thanks for all your well informed input, I will have more to say after reading Piper's book. Perhaps John Simpkin could invite Michael C. Piper to defend his thesis in this forum against his critics here that have not read the book... yet. I have enjoyed reading the comments other authors here, like Jim Marrs and Larry Hancock and many others. What do you say, John?

Jeff D.

http://www.americanfreepress.net/Final_Judgment.pdf

Jeff,

Thanks for that interesting post. Forget about Tim. I see he's already labelling you an anti-Semite. Tim's problem is that he should have been born 500 years ago. He's a great loss to the Spanish Inquisition. If he ever points his accusatory finger at me and says I'm anti-Semitic, I'll bite it clean off.

On the 9/11 thing, I haven't really kept up with the latest theorising. All I know is that the perpetrators were Saudis--ostensibly an ally of the US--and that Bush, Rumsfeld etc have strong business ties to that nation. I can't see Israel having a motive for such a thing. The JFK mystery is basically the main issue for me.

I haven't read Piper's book but I've skimmed it on the net like others have. The fact that it's banned in the US is a disturbing fact and makes me wonder just who is running the show in America. I'm keen to hear your views after you read it, especially the details of his theory about how it was contracted out to Bloomfield. I'm not sure if that scenario is realistic but frankly, I wouldn't really know. I suspect that what we know about this and many other issues concerning the power elites that run nations and corporations is only the tip of the iceberg, dwarfed by what lies beneath the waterline. I recall you posted last year about the possibility aerial photos of DP had been taken in preparation for November 22. Have you heard any more on this and what was your source?

On the issue of Israel and the bomb, I think Ben-Gurion was right and JFK was wrong. Israel, like any other country, has a right to plan its own national security policies without interference. Especially true in Israel's case. JFK was opposed to any proliferation and, unlike his successors, was totally impartial in the application of this policy. It was this impartiality which may have got him assassinated, IMO. Just a suspicion--a strong suspicion. Subsequent Presidents have supported non-proliferation in the Middle East--but have allowed Israel to be the exception. America can't seriously be surprised at the antipathy towards them shown by Arab states who support Palestine, especially given the other documented examples of Palestinian suffering. Point is, there's no proof that acquiring nuclear weapons leads to nuclear war. India and Pakistan, after years of skirmishes and threats over Kashmir, now seem to be acting like buddies. Both know the other one can blow them away.

[Jeff Dahlstrom]

Stephen,

Jeff, I have seen most of this before, as I said, I have done my own research, but thank you.

I notice that Professor Jones background is Physics, not structural engineering,or Failure analysis. Can you cite one Engineer who claims the Towers fell because of planted explosives? Steve.

I can not cite a structural engineer claiming explosives as the cause of the collapse of the three WTC towers. However, Guns and Butter archives has two interesting programs that totally debunk the FEMA report on the collapse of the WTC towers ($600,000 cost) and the more extensive NIST report ($20 Million). Those programs are interviews with Jim Hoffman and I don't remember which program dates to refer you. Try the six most recent archives in Jan-Feb, 2006: http://www.kpfa.org/archives/index.php?sho...age=1&type=news

Jeff D.

PS: Mark S., thanks for your most recent comments supporting open minded willingness to consider Piper's thesis as opposed to attacking other's views as anti-semitic, and therefore, untenable.