Michael Collins Piper: Final Judgement

[Ron Ecker]

Ron, most emphatically, the New Testament does NOT blame the crucifixion of Jesus on the Jews.

Anti-Semites interpret it that way and have through the ages.

Tim,

To paraphrase Richard Nixon, the gospel writers gave anti-Semites a sword, and they have stuck it in and twisted it with relish.

Matthew chapter 27:

20 But the chief priests and elders persuaded the multitude that they should ask (for) Barabbas, and destroy Jesus.

21 The governor answered and said unto them, Whether of the twain will ye that I release unto you? They said, Barabbas.

22 Pilate saith unto them, What shall I do then with Jesus which is called Christ? They all say unto him, Let him be crucified.

23 And the governor said, Why, what evil hath he done? But they cried out the more, saying, Let him be crucified.

24 When Pilate saw that he could prevail nothing, but that rather a tumult was made, he took water, and washed his hands before the multitude, saying, I am innocent of the blood of this just person: see ye to it.

25 Then answered all the people, and said, His blood be on us, and on our children.

What can be plainer than that?

The simple underlying fact, of course, insofar as the gospel story can be considered historically accurate, is that the crucifixion of Jesus was a joint Jewish-Roman venture. But the gospel writer(s) obviously twisted it to put all the blame possible on the Jews, and on their children.

And that's your Sunday School lesson for today.

Ron

[Tim Gratz]

Piper has stated that the movie "JFK" did not get into the Mossad involvement in the assassination because "JFK" was financed by a Jew.

[Owen Parsons]

Piper has stated that the movie "JFK" did not get into the Mossad involvement in the assassination because "JFK" was financed by a Jew.

I've seen that. It wasn't because the fellow was a jew, but because Piper says (and I have no way of verifying him) that he was an Israeli arms dealer. You certainly missed the subtlety of that argument.

Anyway, I think a more likely explanation that JFK didn't go into Mossad involvement (and, for my own part, I'm pretty sure there was none) is because Piper was the first person to really push this theory and make it coherent. It wouldn't have been something Stone could have drawn on from his reading of assassination literature.

Edited February 12, 2006 by Owen Parsons

[Mark Stapleton]

It all comes down to how much one wants to see the JFK assassination solved. Guys like Holland, Posner etc can join the Forum and defend their theories anytime they like, as far as I'm concerned. As for Carto, that analogy is irrelevant because it doesn't relate to JFK. Anyone who theorises that the holocaust was a hoax is wrong, of course, and I wouldn't waste my time reading such a thread.

You've failed to make a valid case for why Piper shouldn't be given the opportunity to defend his opinions the same way that John extends the invitation to any others who believe they can contribute to closure on this confusing imbroglio. Tim's almost frantic attempts to have him silenced before he has spoken a word indicates to me that he has a profound fear of what Piper may have to say. It's Tim and those who support his stance who are in denial. The guy hasn't spoken a bloody word yet.

As I said to John my position is not that Piper should not be allowed to defend his opinions but rather that he and you should admit that he comes here with a stong bias. I can't speak for Tim but in my case I don't fear what Piper has to say as much as disdain for what motives him.

While inviting Carto to the JFK Assassination sub-forum obviously would not be appropriate there also are History Books, Nazi Germany, History and Political Conspiracies sub-forums which in theory he could be invited to join. You say you wouldn't read a Holocaust denial thread, by the same token wouldn't you question the motives of a Holocaust denier who blames the Kennedy assassination on a 'Jewish conspiracy'?

Len

Len,

I'm glad to hear that you don't fear what Mr. Piper may have to say.

If Mr. Piper's theories on the assassination prove to be nothing more than an extension of anti-Israel bias, this will become apparent at an early stage, IMO. However, I will still evaluate his claims about the Kennedy assassination in light of what I already know about the matter. This is a Forum devoted to the assassination of JFK. If he is willing to debate you and Tim on the holocaust and other issues--in a different section of the Forum--then that's great. You would surely wipe the floor with anyone who denies the existence of such a widely documented historical event as the holocaust.

When people are invited to discuss their published works dealing with the assassination they are not, as far as I'm aware, compelled to submit their viewpoints on other issues unrelated to the subject matter. Perhaps we should require that authors inform the Forum of their positions on issues such abortion, euthanasia, civil rights, the ordination of women priests, fundamentalist religion and refugees before they are permitted to participate.

Mr. Piper may hold views on Israel with which members have violent disagreement. If Mr. Piper expressed the view that all Australians are convict scum, derived from the worst of 18th century British convict classes, I would be offended but I would still listen to what he had to say about the assassination especially if I believed his theories had substance. I definitely would not call for his expulsion on moral grounds because that would be imposing my moral set of values on others who may not share my identical point of view.

I request the lynch mob wait until their victim shows up before lighting the fire.

[Tim Gratz]

I found this interesting dialogue on an Internet blog:

What Are Malays Reading?

Entering the bookstore in the check-in hall at Kuala Lumpur airport, the first book we saw on the table near the door was Hitler's "Mein Kampf." Odd. Then our eyes were drawn to a cover with a caricature of a Jewish financier straight out of Nazi propaganda. Yup, it was Henry Ford's anti-semitic tract, "The International Jew," with the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion" thrown in for good measure. Elsewhere on the table was "The High Priests of War: The Secret History of How America's 'Neo-Conservative' Trotskyites Came To Power and Orchestrated the War Against Iraq as the First Step in Their Drive for Global Empire" by Michael Collins Piper. Mr. Piper is a Holocaust "revisionist" and JFK assassination conspiracy theorist. It would appear that former Prime Minister Mahathir Mohamad's complaints about the Jews have had their desired effect on Malays' reading habits.

Posted 8 months, 4 days ago on June 8, 2005

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Re: What Are Malays Reading?

It's interesting to learn that my work, THE HIGH PRIESTS OF WAR, which is by far the most precise and concise exposition of what the neo-conservative Zionist imperial war machine is all about is so prominently displayed alongside other significant works. As far as the claim that I am somehow a "Holocaust Revisionist" is concerned, I have been called that so many times that I am going to have to start taking a closer look at what these Holocaust Revisionists do have to say. Since?as we know?there are so many lies and double standards about Israel and its butchering of the Palestinians, it seems logical that the Israelis and their supporters are telling big lies about the period known as the Holocaust. --MICHAEL COLLINS PIPER, author of THE HIGH PRIESTS OF WAR, The NEW JERUSALEM, and FINAL JUDGMENT: The Missing Link in the JFK Assassination Conspiracy.

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Posted 54 minutes, 27 seconds ago by Michael Collins Piper • @ • www • Reply

Comment Trackback URL : http://www.feer.com/tales/bblog/trackback.php/98/77/

...

Comment pending moderation

Note that Piper refers to "Mein Kampf" and "The International Jew" and the infamous "Protocols of the Elders of Zion" as "other significant works" and he is evidently proud to have his work displayed with such trash.

Remember this is the guy who says World War II should not have been fought since the Nazis ONLY killed 1,500,000 Jews!

Mark Stapleton exhibits the typical liberal attitude: I cannot impose MY moral views on Piper. There is such a thing as making a moral judgment and acting on it. Anti-Semites and racists deserve scorn. To treat their sick views as equivalent to the views of healthy socialists, liberals and conservatives is ridiculous, IMO. Make a moral judgment, Mark. Is what Piper preaches immoral, or not?

[Mark Stapleton]

I found this interesting dialogue on an Internet blog:

What Are Malays Reading?

Entering the bookstore in the check-in hall at Kuala Lumpur airport, the first book we saw on the table near the door was Hitler's "Mein Kampf." Odd. Then our eyes were drawn to a cover with a caricature of a Jewish financier straight out of Nazi propaganda. Yup, it was Henry Ford's anti-semitic tract, "The International Jew," with the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion" thrown in for good measure. Elsewhere on the table was "The High Priests of War: The Secret History of How America's 'Neo-Conservative' Trotskyites Came To Power and Orchestrated the War Against Iraq as the First Step in Their Drive for Global Empire" by Michael Collins Piper. Mr. Piper is a Holocaust "revisionist" and JFK assassination conspiracy theorist. It would appear that former Prime Minister Mahathir Mohamad's complaints about the Jews have had their desired effect on Malays' reading habits.

Posted 8 months, 4 days ago on June 8, 2005

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Re: What Are Malays Reading?

It's interesting to learn that my work, THE HIGH PRIESTS OF WAR, which is by far the most precise and concise exposition of what the neo-conservative Zionist imperial war machine is all about is so prominently displayed alongside other significant works. As far as the claim that I am somehow a "Holocaust Revisionist" is concerned, I have been called that so many times that I am going to have to start taking a closer look at what these Holocaust Revisionists do have to say. Since?as we know?there are so many lies and double standards about Israel and its butchering of the Palestinians, it seems logical that the Israelis and their supporters are telling big lies about the period known as the Holocaust. --MICHAEL COLLINS PIPER, author of THE HIGH PRIESTS OF WAR, The NEW JERUSALEM, and FINAL JUDGMENT: The Missing Link in the JFK Assassination Conspiracy.

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Posted 54 minutes, 27 seconds ago by Michael Collins Piper • @ • www • Reply

Comment Trackback URL : http://www.feer.com/tales/bblog/trackback.php/98/77/

...

Comment pending moderation

Note that Piper refers to "Mein Kampf" and "The International Jew" and the infamous "Protocols of the Elders of Zion" as "other significant works" and he is evidently proud to have his work displayed with such trash.

Remember this is the guy who says World War II should not have been fought since the Nazis ONLY killed 1,500,000 Jews!

Mark Stapleton exhibits the typical liberal attitude: I cannot impose MY moral views on Piper. There is such a thing as making a moral judgment and acting on it. Anti-Semites and racists deserve scorn. To treat their sick views as equivalent to the views of healthy socialists, liberals and conservatives is ridiculous, IMO. Make a moral judgment, Mark. Is what Piper preaches immoral, or not?

Tim,

You don't seem to be able to accept that others may look at things from a different perspective than yours. Your thundering speeches mean nothing to me.

I'm interested in what this guy has to say about the assassination. I believe Mossad involvement is a possibility. The assassination is what I am interested in. All the rest is just a lotta noise.

You seem to be outraged when others don't share your world view and moral indignation. Amazing.

[Len Colby]

Len,

I'm glad to hear that you don't fear what Mr. Piper may have to say.

If Mr. Piper's theories on the assassination prove to be nothing more than an extension of anti-Israel bias, this will become apparent at an early stage

[...]

I request the lynch mob wait until their victim shows up before lighting the fire.

If Piper were merely anti-Israel he would not bother me so much, it's the fact that he is an anti-Semetic Holocaust denier that upsets me.

If he were openly a member of the Klan or the Nazi party what would be your position on him being invited to join this forum? That question is for you too, John.

The "lynch mob" does not need to wait for Herr Piper to show up here he has made his views clear already. If Posner ever shows up here I think most members of this forum will know his POV before he starts posting.

EDIT - typo fixed changed 'to' to 'too' underlined above

Edited February 13, 2006 by Len Colby

[Mark Stapleton]

Len,

I'm glad to hear that you don't fear what Mr. Piper may have to say.

If Mr. Piper's theories on the assassination prove to be nothing more than an extension of anti-Israel bias, this will become apparent at an early stage

[...]

I request the lynch mob wait until their victim shows up before lighting the fire.

If Piper were merely anti-Israel he would not bother me so much, it's the fact that he is an anti-Semetic Holocaust denier that upsets me.

If he were openly a member of the Klan or the Nazi party what would be your position on him being invited to join this forum? That question is for you to John.

The "lynch mob" does not need to wait for Herr Piper to show up here he has made his views clear already. If Posner ever shows up here I think most members of this forum will know his POV before he starts posting.

Len,

I'm not sure I understand your meaning when you state, "That question is for you to John". If you have a question for John I suggest you direct it to him. I won't be addressing questions to John on your behalf.

However, I can answer your loaded question if you like.

"If he were openly a member of the Klan or the Nazi Party what would your position on him being invited to join this forum?

My answer depends on whether such an individual has something of value to contribute to the collective knowledge of the assassination. If wouldn't matter to me if its a nazi, fascist, Klan or Bonesman. Listen to the argument and evaluate its merit. If a Nazi, Klansman or holocaust denier wished to argue the dubious merits of their philosophies, then they could do that--elsewhere on the Forum--and would no doubt be heavily criticised by those members, myself included, who disagree with such philosophies. However, I doubt if I would waste time arguing on those threads.

Now I have a hypothetical for you. If Piper presents arguments which are logical and cohesive, based on detailed research and not blind ideology, which may lead to a greater understanding of the factors involved in the death of JFK, would you still try to silence him?

Edited February 13, 2006 by Mark Stapleton

[Scott Deitche]

Wow- so much on this thread to comment on- I'll stick with the big ones first-

#1. The mythical power of Meyer Lansky. Contrary to what many think, any old-time wiseguy you meet will tell you that Lansky was nothing without Jimmy Blue-Eyes Alo, his "handler" form the Genovese family. Lansky's power derived from the Italians- not the other way around. Lansky had his own Jewish mob, active in Miami, but he was always under Alo's thumb (who died a few years ago from VERY old age). Lansky's "position" in the hierarchy of the Mafia post-Luciano was nothing. He was never on the Commission.

I'm really not sure where this whole "Lansky is the 'god' of orgnaized crime in America' got started but it doesn't wash with any of the evidence nor any of the major events that shaped the underworld in America. When Luciano was boss and in the States, Lanksy wa sat his peak, power-wise. In Cuba, Lansky had a lot of pull, butagain it was because of Luciano. I do think Trafficante was the real kingpin, but as always, he stayed behind the scenes.

Most all the real powerful Jewish mobsters had their run in the early part of the 20th century- guys like Arnold Rothstein, Longy Zwillman, and Nig Rosen.

Also, the "opium lords" of organized crime were not exclusively Jewish- they were Italian, Greek, Irish, French, Canadian, Chinese, Thai, etc.

#2- Al-Queda did not commit 9/11- You can now easily (though the FBI didn't) trace the 9/11 plot right back to the assasination of Rabbi Meir Kahane and the ensuing first attempt on the World Trade Center. An Al-Queda plot to attack the World Trade Centers with airplanes was hatched back in the mid 90's. The territorial pissings of various intel and law enforcement agencies, combined with the NYC FBI office's obession with the Mafia, enabled the plot to come to fruition. Also why did the Towers collapse so easily. Simple- the mob controlled ALL construction trades in NYC in the late 1960's. There have been records of sub-standard materials used in many buildings of that time- why would the Twin Towers be any different. The mob controlled that entire job.

#3. Mossad complicity in JFK assasination- IMO it would be one of the stupidest things in the history of foreign politics. Israel's lifeblood was US support- without it they would have withered and died. THere was no motive, because it would have been political suicide. Now a rogue agent- maybe someone involved with the narcotics trade- assisting the transport of opium from Syria. POssible

Edited February 13, 2006 by Scott Deitche

[Tim Gratz]

Mark S wrote:

You seem to be outraged when others don't share your world view and moral indignation. Amazing.

Well I agree with you about the amazing part. It is amazing that someone can be indignant about the excesses of the CIA but not indignant about a gentleman who cavalierly dismisses the murder of a million and a half Jewishish men, women and children. Anyone who does not share my moral outrage at that is, in my opinion, totally devoid of morality.

P.S. Scott is of course correct. It would have been suicide for Israel to have assassinated the POTUS.

Edited February 13, 2006 by Tim Gratz

[Owen Parsons]

Mark S wrote:

You seem to be outraged when others don't share your world view and moral indignation. Amazing.

Well I agree with you about the amazing part. It is amazing that someone can be indignant about the excesses of the CIA but not indignant about a gentleman who cavalierly dismisses the murder of a million and a half Jewishish men, women and children. Anyone who does not share my moral outrage at that is, in my opinion, totally devoid of morality.

I really hope you haven't been taken in by Piper's phony calculations, as you seem to keep granting him the numerical high-ground. The inflated Auschwitz figure of 4 million was not utilized in arriving at the standard 6 million toll of the holocaust.

Edited February 13, 2006 by Owen Parsons

[Tim Gratz]

An excellent point, Owen.

Of course when he wrote that WWII should not have been fought he tied it in to his discovery that according to him only 1,500,000 Jews were killed at Auschwitz.

It also shows he is a bad historian. As I am sure we all know, the United States did not enter the war to save the Jews from the Holocaust. Indeed President Roosevelt has been criticized for not taking more active steps to save the Jews but I think the US was not really aware of what was going on in the concentration camps.

The scary thing is that Hitler's anti-Semitism shares a characteristic with Piper's: the belief that there is a Jewish conspiracy secretly controlling governments, the currency, etc.

As I am sure you would suspect, Piper's works have been enthusiastically embraced by the Stormfront white supremacy organization.

By the way, didn't the Forum expel a member (Salvador Astucia?) earlier this year because of his antii-Semitic writings?

Edited February 13, 2006 by Tim Gratz

[Ron Ecker]

When Piper finally shows up, I have the feeling that Tim would like to throw a cream pie in his face.

The forum would then have a pied Piper.

[Tim Gratz]

Re the banning of Astucia, Andy Walker wrote:

My opinion is that I should not offer a platform to Nazis.

Amen to that, Andy!

[Tim Gratz]

Mark S wrote:

My answer depends on whether such an individual has something of value to contribute to the collective knowledge of the assassination. If wouldn't matter to me if its a nazi, fascist, Klan or Bonesman.

I call this moral myopia.

There were Nazis who were excellent architects, musicians, etc. Hitler himself was a good painter. By Mark's moral standards, he would sit down and take painting lessons from the architect of the Holocaust.

Mark's position reminds me very much of Robert Maheu's admission in his memoirs that he liked Sam Giancana because Giancana was a good cook and a heck of a story teller. Never mind that he was also a ruthless killer; his steaks and caviar were excellent.

Mark, it DOES matter if someone is a nazi, a fascist, a Klansman, one who preaches racial hatred, etc. In Germany it led to the Holocaust. In America it led to the lynchings of black people and the bombings of churches killing innocent little girls the age of my daughter.

Racial hatred matters, Mark. It matters very much.

Edited February 13, 2006 by Tim Gratz