Michael Collins Piper: Final Judgement

[Len Colby]

I know of no one on this forum who holds, or supports facist views..

That's about to change.

[John Simkin]

And re refering this to Freedom of Speech, of course Piper has the right to spew his vitriol, so long as it does not incite violence. But that does not give you the obligation to give him a forum to spread his hatred any more than it compels me to break bread with him. A defender of the Holocaust should be shunned by all moral men.

I have no time for people who deny the Holocaust. However, their crime needs to be seen in perspective. Who is worst, the people who denied it happened, or the people who allowed it to happen? What about those British and American politicians who denied Jews entry when they tried to flee from Nazi Germany. What about those British and American military commanders who refused to bomb the transport links to the concentration camps?

My least favourite historian, David Irving, aged 67, has been held in an Austrian prison since 17th November, 2005, because he said in 2000 that there had been no gas chambers at the Auschwitz camp. Yet this is a country that elected a former Nazi to become its president.

Tim says that people who he says are Holocaust deniers should be banned from this Forum (it is not at all clear that Michael Collins Piper falls into this category). Yet I allow him to support a man who has caused an illegal war to take place in order to satisfy the needs of his financial backers.

[John Dolva]

And re refering this to Freedom of Speech, of course Piper has the right to spew his vitriol, so long as it does not incite violence. But that does not give you the obligation to give him a forum to spread his hatred any more than it compels me to break bread with him. A defender of the Holocaust should be shunned by all moral men.

I have no time for people who deny the Holocaust. However, their crime needs to be seen in perspective. Who is worst, the people who denied it happened, or the people who allowed it to happen? What about those British and American politicians who denied Jews entry when they tried to flee from Nazi Germany. What about those British and American military commanders who refused to bomb the transport links to the concentration camps?

My least favourite historian, David Irving, aged 67, has been held in an Austrian prison since 17th November, 2005, because he said in 2000 that there had been no gas chambers at the Auschwitz camp. Yet this is a country that elected a former Nazi to become its president.

Tim says that people who he says are Holocaust deniers should be banned from this Forum (it is not at all clear that Michael Collins Piper falls into this category). Yet I allow him to support a man who has caused an illegal war to take place in order to satisfy the needs of his financial backers.

Tim, the JBS are opportunists, more subtle perhaps , sensitive? doubtful .

Take the 'Reagan Ruckus' of 1965 for example, details leaked by insider of an offer by JBS to support or attack Reagan as he wished, depending on what he would regard as more helpful in the moment. Adopting the person John Birch the spy/missionary as 'mast head': an other example. It broadens their support while they produce thought on a wide range of subjects that in essence is reactionary.

It's entirely possible and reasonable that once Pipers garbage has spent enough time in the dustbins of history and humanity has shown that it remembers the past as it was and does not repeat it, that future scholars can study this 'anti truth' dogma of these centuries objectively and see it for what it was.

Until then ... who was responsible? ... when they came for the communist, I said nothing...now they come for me and there is no one left..

Fascism..special case..special stomp. The forum owners choice.

[Tim Gratz]

John wrote:

have no time for people who deny the Holocaust. However, their crime needs to be seen in perspective. Who is worst, the people who denied it happened, or the people who allowed it to happen? What about those British and American politicians who denied Jews entry when they tried to flee from Nazi Germany. What about those British and American military commanders who refused to bomb the transport links to the concentration camps?

John, I think Holocaust deniers may be worse but certainly condemnation is due the politicians and military commanders as you suggest.

[Len Colby]

And re refering this to Freedom of Speech, of course Piper has the right to spew his vitriol, so long as it does not incite violence. But that does not give you the obligation to give him a forum to spread his hatred any more than it compels me to break bread with him. A defender of the Holocaust should be shunned by all moral men.

I have no time for people who deny the Holocaust. However, their crime needs to be seen in perspective. Who is worst, the people who denied it happened, or the people who allowed it to happen? What about those British and American politicians who denied Jews entry when they tried to flee from Nazi Germany. What about those British and American military commanders who refused to bomb the transport links to the concentration camps?

My least favourite historian, David Irving, aged 67, has been held in an Austrian prison since 17th November, 2005, because he said in 2000 that there had been no gas chambers at the Auschwitz camp. Yet this is a country that elected a former Nazi to become its president.

Tim says that people who he says are Holocaust deniers should be banned from this Forum (it is not at all clear that Michael Collins Piper falls into this category). Yet I allow him to support a man who has caused an illegal war to take place in order to satisfy the needs of his financial backers.

I mostly agree with John, the inaction of the Allies' political and (European Theater) military commanders was disgraceful, many of the Holocaust's 10 million victims (about half of whom were Jewish) could have been saved. The denial of visas lead many Jews to flee to Latin America or even as far as China and those were of course the luck ones*.

I feel that Piper should be admitted as a member for a few reasons.

1) I am a firm believer in free speech and feel that basic rights should be extended to all no matter how distasteful their views. America's not to recent past illustrates this, in the 1960's many southern Federal judges many of whom shared the racist views of the local community upheld the civil rights of African Americans because they believed that's what the Constitution and federal law mandated. To them blacks demanding their fair place in society probably were as distasteful as Piper and his ilk are to me. These judges often made these rulings at a high personal price as many became outcasts in their communities or even their families.

2) No offense to present company, but membership is not really a special honor, since John and Andy let just about anybody in. He is being given a soapbox not a stamp of approval.

3) If he is he is barred here, he would be able to play the part of a "persecuted martyr" and go on about how the "Israel lobby" is even keeping him out of internet forums.

4) I doubt his thesis will bear the scrutiny of the combined expertise of this forum's members

* What is little discussed is that financial status was very important to being able to flee Nazi era Europe. Visas often had to be "bought" from corrupt consular officials and application fees and transportation costs were high. In addition many countries would only grant visas to wealthy families. When my mother was born here family was working class but fortunately my grandfather was a successful businessman and was able afford forged documents as well as visas and transportation to Cuba.

Edited February 14, 2006 by Len Colby

[Len Colby]

I empathize with your pain of having your ancestors slaughtered in the holocost. Loss of innocent lives is atrocious and I don't have a dog in your fight about holocost deniers. When I got out of the USAF I toured Europe and visited the concentration camps at Dacchau and Auschwitz. It was abhorent to me as a concerned human being that the cruelty and horror took place under Hitlers regime in these death camps during WW II.

I am grateful to hear that, since you are in phone contact with Piper why don't you ask him his views on the subject and if claims not to be a Holocaust denier ask him to explain his comments that indicate he is and his constant association with people who are.

My words in response to your question are not important as to yes or no to your attempt to label me as a bigoted and prejudiced monster your statement. You are attributing that view to the wrong persons in this thread when you say it is the party line of the neo-Fascist Nazi/Klan friendly ultra-right such as Piper and his "newspaper" the American Free Press.

I didn't try to label you "as a bigoted and prejudiced monster" I asked you to clarify statements that lead me to suspect you might be "anti-Semitic" because they were very similar to language used by the neo-Fascist anti-Semitic extreme Right and coincidentally or not championing a writer from that same extremist political camp. Your refusal to answer my question directly and use of fake quotes (I assume you thought they were authetic) is not helping dispel that notion. The second Sharon quote in no way supported your point and served only to put him and to certain extent all Jews in a bad light. As for the quote from Fulbright he was of course racist and from my experience most racists are also anti-Semitic. Findley* as I'm sure you are aware, like you, has very strong anti-Israeli feelings so it's not at all surprising he would make such a comment.

You have yet to back your claim that the "Israel lobby" is responsible for suppresing Piper's book.

I also want to know who planted the explosives in the WTC #1, #2, and #7 which led us into war with Afghanistan, Iraq,

1 - What exactly does this have to do with what is being debated here? Take it to the Political Conspiracies sub-forum.

2 - No one planted explosives in the WTC they collapsed due impact damage and the resultant fires. The fact that no civil engineers, licensed architects, failure analysis specialists, construction contractors or demolition experts from anywhere in the World, another words no one with relevant expertise publicly backs the "controlled demolition theory" should make this clear.

and possibly into Iran with thermo-nuclear bombs (that the Pentagon says are "safe for civilians")

Citation?

next month

You want to bet on this?

not based on Iran's nuclear weapons plans (5 to 10 years), but on Iran's plans to open an Iranian Oil Bourse pegged to the Euro, as opposed to the petro-dollar created by Nixon and Kissinger in 1971 in the New York and London exchanges

Got any evidence? If so start a thread in the Conspiracies sub-forum.

Who benefits from the destruction of all of Israel's enemies and arab (persian) neighbors in the middle east?

Who benefited most from the toppling of the Taliban?

1) The Afghanis

2) The former Soviet republics to the North of Afghanistan - They felt the Taliban were a destabilizing influence they were are to get aid etc. from the US in exchange for letting their territory be used during the invasion.

3) Iran – They hated the Taliban.

4) Pakistan – In order to get their cooperation for the invasion the Bush administration took a lot of diplomatic pressure off of the Pakistani government and unfroze and increased military aid to them.

5) The Gulf States – Much of al Quedas efforts went into liberating the holy Arabian Peninsula from the "infidels" as they referred to any government that wasn't as fundamentalist as they were.

6) The Russians – The Taliban and al-Queda gave aid to Chechen and other Muslim rebels.

7) The US arms industry.

Who benefited from the overthrow of Saddam?

1) Kuwait and to a lesser extent the other Gulf States

2) Iran

3) Iraqi Kurds and Shiites

4) The US arms industry.

5) Israel but less so than the parties above.

Tone down the rhetoric.

I agree

Len

* In 2001 Findley wrote a book in ehich he compared bin-Ladden to the Marquis da Lafayette. He has been an outspoken critic of Israel and the US's support of that country since the 80's. He just came back from the Middle East where he hobnobed with Hamas leaders.

Edited February 14, 2006 by Len Colby

[Mark Stapleton]

And re refering this to Freedom of Speech, of course Piper has the right to spew his vitriol, so long as it does not incite violence. But that does not give you the obligation to give him a forum to spread his hatred any more than it compels me to break bread with him. A defender of the Holocaust should be shunned by all moral men.

I have no time for people who deny the Holocaust. However, their crime needs to be seen in perspective. Who is worst, the people who denied it happened, or the people who allowed it to happen? What about those British and American politicians who denied Jews entry when they tried to flee from Nazi Germany. What about those British and American military commanders who refused to bomb the transport links to the concentration camps?

My least favourite historian, David Irving, aged 67, has been held in an Austrian prison since 17th November, 2005, because he said in 2000 that there had been no gas chambers at the Auschwitz camp. Yet this is a country that elected a former Nazi to become its president.

Tim says that people who he says are Holocaust deniers should be banned from this Forum (it is not at all clear that Michael Collins Piper falls into this category). Yet I allow him to support a man who has caused an illegal war to take place in order to satisfy the needs of his financial backers.

I mostly agree with John, the inaction of the Allies’ political and (European Theater) military commanders was disgraceful, many of the Holocaust’s 10 million victims (about half of whom were Jewish) could have been saved. The denial of visas lead many Jews to flee to Latin America or even as far as China and those were of course the luck ones*.

I feel that Piper should be admitted as a member for a few reasons.

1) I am a firm believer in free speech and feel that basic rights should be extended to all no matter how distasteful their views. America’s not to recent past illustrates this, in the 1960’s many southern Federal judges many of whom shared the racist views of the local community upheld the civil rights of African Americans because they believed that’s what the Constitution and federal law mandated. To them blacks demanding their fair place in society were as distasteful as Piper and his ilk are to me. These judges made these ruling at a high personal price as many became outcast in their communities or even there families.

2) No offense to present company, but membership is not really a special honor, since John and Andy let just about anybody in. He is being given a soapbox not a stamp of approval.

3) If he is he is barred here, he would be able to play the part of a “persecuted martyr” and go on about how the “Israel lobby” is even keeping him out of internet forums.

4) I doubt his thesis will bear the scrutiny of the combined expertise of this forum’s members

* What is little discussed is that financial status was very important to being able to flee Nazi era Europe. Visas often had to be “bought” from corrupt consular officials and application fees and transportation costs were high. In addition many countries would only grant visas to wealthy families. When my mother was born here family was working class but fortunately my grandfather was a successful businessman and was able afford forged documents as well as visas and transportation to Cuba.

Len,

That's quite a sensible approach. It would be nice if our self-appointed moral guardians took this view.

[John Dolva]

I don't like the idea of being refered to as this 'moral guardian'. Apart from the derogatory tone to the suggestion, I prefer to see everyone being their own.

Would you prefer I keep my opinions to myself here. Is that the 'free speech' you wish Piper to enjoy?

___________

As far as it being a special privilege to post here?

I think it is. There is a repository of individuals and ideas that contribute to the world here. This is good.

___________

While in some instances there is truth in what is said about some southern judges. It is also true that there were significant elements that were driven to nullify any such efforts. They in some states ruled by terror, economic control and 'eduaction'. Elements exist today.

It was through the courage of the Kennedys, the Evers brothers, Martin Luther King and the freedom riders, ordinary black and white americans that real change finally started.

And it is through the little people staying silent in the face of their supposed leaders bad choices that the Nazis rose to power. Just blaming the 'leaders' is a kind of 'over there and them' mentality that makes personal responsibility less than what it should be.

[Tim Gratz]

Once again I agree with John Dolva. Well put, John.

[Mark Stapleton]

I don't like the idea of being refered to as this 'moral guardian'. Apart from the derogatory tone to the suggestion, I prefer to see everyone being their own.

Would you prefer I keep my opinions to myself here. Is that the 'free speech' you wish Piper to enjoy?

___________

As far as it being a special privilege to post here?

I think it is. There is a repository of individuals and ideas that contribute to the world here. This is good.

___________

While in some instances there is truth in what is said about some southern judges. It is also true that there were significant elements that were driven to nullify any such efforts. They in some states ruled by terror, economic control and 'eduaction'. Elements exist today.

It was through the courage of the Kennedys, the Evers brothers, Martin Luther King and the freedom riders, ordinary black and white americans that real change finally started.

And it is through the little people staying silent in the face of their supposed leaders bad choices that the Nazis rose to power. Just blaming the 'leaders' is a kind of 'over there and them' mentality that makes personal responsibility less than what it should be.

John,

I'll respond to the first two paragraphs of your post, as the remainder appears to refer to issues raised by Len.

I would have thought the term "moral guardian" is pretty mild compared to the tone of some of the heated language which has been used here, especially by you and Tim.

You and Tim wish to have Mr. Piper silenced before he has had a chance to state his case. To me that's behaving like a moral guardian. You are entitled to your opinion and I am entitled to mine. (Just as Michael Collins Piper is entitled to his).

[John Dolva]

OK, Mark, I'm cool with that. Your opinions, owned by you. Mine are mine and they are different.

______________________

Some more heated language directed at Piper

You should be under no doubt about where the world stands on your revisionism. It is filth, garbage, nonsense, bullxxxx, and all the rest. I don't know quite where it would belong in a Library. Certainly not in the Non-Fiction section.

Taken seriously, a suggestion of you personally not being allowed to post on this education forum hopefully sends you an unambiguous message.

[Tim Gratz]

Piper:

You believe World War Two should not have been fought. True?

Do you believe there is any moral difference between the murder of 1,000,000 Jews and the murder of 6,000,000?

Do you admit that the Hitler regime was murdering Jews (regardless of the number count)?

Do you agree with the tenets of the Storm Front organization?

[Mark Stapleton]

Piper:

You believe World War Two should not have been fought. True?

Do you believe there is any moral difference between the murder of 1,000,000 Jews and the murder of 6,000,000?

Do you admit that the Hitler regime was murdering Jews (regardless of the number count)?

Do you agree with the tenets of the Storm Front organization?

For heaven's sake, give him a chance to make his first post. This isn't the Spanish Inquisition.

[Guest Stephen Turner]

Piper:

You believe World War Two should not have been fought. True?

Do you believe there is any moral difference between the murder of 1,000,000 Jews and the murder of 6,000,000?

Do you admit that the Hitler regime was murdering Jews (regardless of the number count)?

Do you agree with the tenets of the Storm Front organization?

For heaven's sake, give him a chance to make his first post. This isn't the Spanish Inquisition.

AH, noone expects the Spanish Inquisition, Cardinal Fang bring out the...........COMFY CUSHIONS..

[Mark Stapleton]

Piper:

You believe World War Two should not have been fought. True?

Do you believe there is any moral difference between the murder of 1,000,000 Jews and the murder of 6,000,000?

Do you admit that the Hitler regime was murdering Jews (regardless of the number count)?

Do you agree with the tenets of the Storm Front organization?

For heaven's sake, give him a chance to make his first post. This isn't the Spanish Inquisition.

AH, noone expects the Spanish Inquisition, Cardinal Fang bring out the...........COMFY CUSHIONS..

LOL. Our main weapons are fear......surprise......no, wait a minute, wait a minute..............