Survey: Where to look?

[Thomas H. Purvis]

I'm following this with great interest Tom. No doubt many are. Please continue. One big question that looms closer is 'why?'. Why would there be a need to confuse this on the part of the 'powers that be'? Perhaps you've given the answer in the past and could restate or direct to the relevant topic/post?

Perhaps you've given the answer in the past and could restate or direct to the relevant topic/post?

Yes John, I have!--------cryptically!

However, I would prefer to allow most to evaluate the factual evidence and information without being exposed to/imprinted with/by the information.

Body kidnappings and multiple assassins have already clouded the issues more than adequately, and although there is what one would term a "primary" reason for the WC lie, there are also "secondary" reasons as to why varying agencies such as the FBI and US. Secret Service would go along with and allow such a lie to persist.

Not to mention the absolute "personal" reasons as to why each and every member of the WC was selected and could be ultimately counted on in one shape or form to "go along".

"Cooperate & Graduate" came along well prior to the WC! After all, look at what Arlen Specter as well as Gerald Ford have "graduated" too!

as well as:

"We need to get Connally in on this. He knows how to take care of things like this"

(or words to that effect, I have forgotten the exact quote and do not have my book readily available)

The White House Tapes of Richard M. Nixon.

http://www.defendamerica.mil/profiles/june...pr060706dg2.htm

"Cooperate and graduate, that's what they've always told us," Bucci said. "You always help your buddy out."

Just thought this worthwhile

Edited October 29, 2006 by Thomas H. Purvis

[Thomas H. Purvis]

Not sure I quite understand the aspects of the West Survey you're looking at. Your issue seemd to be a problem with the handling of the chain of evidence regarding these plans and their addmission as WC exibits. As a Surveyor I sure wish you would scan and post all the West survey plans and his fieldwork in their entirity in high resolution jpg or pdf. Can't see much of a reason why one wouldn't post them for all to see. Put the information out there. Maybe it's just me. I am looking at this from a different angle then you are, I think. I'm just a surveyor who'd love to use the West information to begin to make an updated digitized CAD plan of Dealy Plaza on my own. Not looing to make a dime out of it and I would post the resulting digitized drawing derived therefrom. You can create an exact digitized model of Dealy Plaza and get all kinds of information from. You could insert and scale photographs into the drawing for comparsions, check trajectorys all kinds of good stuff Just post the thing. West would want newer generations of Surveyors to build on his framwork.

Not sure I quite understand the aspects of the West Survey you're looking at. Your issue seemd to be a problem with the handling of the chain of evidence regarding these plans and their addmission as WC exibits.

My problem is found within the lies of the WC and their misrepresentation of the facts as relates to the position of JFK at the time/impact of the shots fired in the assassination.

Since you no doubt just got on board, then you are probably not aware that Time/Life started this survey work with Mr. West and he completed a survey plat for them on 11/26/63.

Thereafter, survey work and a survey plat were completed for the US Secret Service during December 2, 3, 4, with the survey plat completed the 5th, and then additional survey work and re-enactment for the FBI was completed on 02/07/64.

EACH and EVERY one of these surveys plotted an impact point for the first shot fired in the assassination.

Yet the WC just could not determine this point, and in fact left us with 10 pages of circular reasoning as regards THE SHOT THAT MISSED and how it may have been the first shot fired.

Without these surveys and their corresponding information, one is not even aware of the trail of lies which ultimately gave us the WC BS. Not to mention that they will never be able to progressively prove these lies.

As a Surveyor I sure wish you would scan and post all the West survey plans and his fieldwork in their entirity in high resolution jpg or pdf. Can't see much of a reason why one wouldn't post them for all to see. Put the information out there. Maybe it's just me. I am looking at this from a different angle then you are, I think. I'm just a surveyor who'd love to use the West information to begin to make an updated digitized CAD plan of Dealy Plaza on my own. Not looing to make a dime out of it and I would post the resulting digitized drawing derived therefrom. You can create an exact digitized model of Dealy Plaza and get all kinds of information from. You could insert and scale photographs into the drawing for comparsions, check trajectorys all kinds of good stuff Just post the thing. West would want newer generations of Surveyors to build on his framwork.

First off, you seem to be unaware as to exactly how many persons are searching for the answers to the questions of the JFK assassination.

And, rest assured that many are doing so for the "big bucks" involved, as well as the personal fame and glory.

So, let me assure you that there are those who would grab any such information and run with it, thereafter to claim it as their own work.

Having already experienced this on more than one occassion, I long ago learned that the information must be delved out in a manner that all who care can gain access to this data.

And, even though some of the "big boys" of the JFK assassination follow closely on this forum, there are also those completely honest persons such as Josiah Thompson, who deserve the final answers to the questions which their work brought out long ago.

Having set in Mr. West's home in Dallas, TX on more than one occassion and discussed the survey work as well as the various re-enactments, as well as presenting Mr. West with that information relative to the altered survey data which the WC did and then introduced into evidence, I must assume that if Mr. West wanted the world to know then he could have provided the information himself.

However, I also recognized that the County Surveyor position is also frequently as much a "political" position as it is a position of qualification.

Personally, I would like to think that it was due to my open and honest discussions with Mr. West that he felt that I was even worthy of providing a safe haven for that information which he had, as he certainly went out of his way to locate and make a copy of everything which he could find, as well as tell me all that he could recall in regards to the survey/re-enactment work in Dealy Plaza.

To include the garbage of what the WC did which ultimately resulted in what we see from their mouth now.

When I also took the time to explain to Mr. West exactly what it was all about, not only did he then fully place the pieces of the puzzel together and recognize the WHY?, but he literally broke out in laughter at what he and his personell had gone through for the WC to further confuse the issue.

The information as regards the survey work in Dealy Plaza as well as what it represents, has, for the most part been kept in my possession since then, with ONLY that information which I deemed necessary being allowed to "leak" out through sources such as Chuck Marler.

And, it was not until such time as I found out of the death of Mr. West that it was determined to re-enter this gallery of rabbit holes and begin to re-introduce a few facts as relates to the assassination of JFK.

Mr. West passed away a few years ago, and upon learning of his death I decided to openly begin to reveal those secrets which apparantly only he and I shared.

As I made no attempt to place any restrictions on the information which I shared and/or gave to him as regards the assassination re-enactments and survey work, neither did Mr. West place any restrictions on me.

And since he continued to live for many years after those early 1990's meetings at his home and telephone calls, then it is assumed that Mr. West could have openly provided ALL of the information which you ask for at any time that he so deemed.

Were it not for the internet and the ability to share this information with those persons who came before me and made honest and rational attempts to resolve the issues of the assassination of JFK, then I would be out planting flowers or doing some other endeavor which is far more rewarding.

However, those such as Mr. Thompson and a few others, have/had taken this subject matter as far as it could be taken at the time, and just as with the true background of LHO, it is now time to share the information with those who are not completely lost in the rabbit holes of multiple assassins and body kidnappings.

It will take "history" a considerable time to absorb, digest, and understand the significance of the West Survey data and it's correlation to the lies of the WC.

And, not unlike any learning proceess, one must understand the basics first.

Already, on this forum, portions of this information have been reporduced and presented with completely false information, to accomodate and buttress the "multiple assassin" theory.

So, the "complete" West Survey's will not be forthcoming, and just as I told John Dolva long ago, I certainly do not have the capability to scan or reproduce a survey plat which measures some 40" X 60" in size (the WC Survey Plat), and thereafter post it on the internet.

And although much of the survey notes could be reproduced, they would merely become another "pawn" in the game of continuation of confusion by those who either intentionally or unknowingly continue to confuse the issue.

The West Survey data is the single most factual pieces ('s) of evidence which exist that can prove absolute and intentional deception on the part of the WC.

It is for a governmental investigative body to see as well as the general world population, at a time (if & when) the US Population is willing to cease to expend their monies on "Alice in Wonderland" theories/books/etc; on the assassination, and recognize exactly, the exact amount of wool that "Specter & Company" pulled over the eyes of the world.

http://www.acorn.net/jfkplace/09/fp.back_i...sue/fetzer.html

4) Chuck Marler's study of "the Warren Commission's use of phoney numbers that were changed from those established by the original surveyors of Dealey Plaza."

Some of the findings reported by Chuck Marler are the most monumental in Assassination Science. Others are preliminary but promising.

According to Marler (p. 250), "analysis of existing Warren Commission exhibits, along with the discovery of new documents, now establishes a clear and convincing case that the survey measurements made for the Warren Commission by Robert H. West, Dallas County Surveyor, were altered, the 24 May 1964, re-enactment was orchestrated by Arlen Specter to insure his single bullet theory would not be contradicted, and the Zapruder film was altered to conceal footage that would have proved President Kennedy was struck by multiple assassins. Initial evidence of the crime scene and the shooting sequences as established by the Zapruder film produced a different version of the assassination than depicted in the Warren Commission's final report. To understand what occurred, it is necessary to study the evidence and exhibits that had been produced prior to 24 May 1964."

If Marler's case can be proved, presidential hopeful Senator Arlen Specter, R-Pa., is guilty of obstruction of justice, which makes it even more necessary to study this evidence and these exhibits. Regrettably, Fetzer and Marler have made that task more difficult than it might have been.

The existing Warren Commission exhibits (CEs) Marler refers to are CEs 585, 882, 883 and 884. One of the "new documents" is the 1964 field notes of re-enactment surveyor Robert H. West who conducted all of the three known surveys, including the November 26, 1963 survey -- the first -- commissioned by the Time-Life Corporation. That first plat, according to Marler, presumably the second of the "new documents," has not yet been made public.

West's second survey was commissioned by the Secret Service and done on December 5, 1963. CE 585 (17H 262) is the resulting plat. West's third survey was commissioned by the Warren Commission and done on May 24, 1964. It resulted in at least two plats, CE 882 and 883 (17H 901). I say "at least" because, according to Marler (p. 251), CE 882 "came wrapped and sealed in a container--one which was never opened and to date has never been released to the public. It was Commission Counsel Arlen Specter who asked Chairman Earl Warren that the seal not be broken and the plat not be taken out of its container. Mr. Specter instead introduced what was represented as a cardboard reproduction of Mr. West's survey as CE-883. Specter also introduced as CE-884, a tabulation of elevations and angles for selected Zapruder film frames which Specter stated were also contained on the sealed survey map."

Supporting this mysterious introduction of evidence by Specter, Marler cites the testimony of Leo J. Gauthier, head of the FBI's exhibit section (5H 136-37). Sure enough, the testimony shows that Specter seems to have done exactly what Marler reported. However, unless I am confused, Marler never explained why CE 882 does not depict a container, sealed or otherwise. It depicts a survey plat. The only difference between it and its "cardboard reproduction" (CE 883) is the addition on the latter of a few more landmarks and witness position labels (Harrison E. Livingstone, Killing Kennedy and the Hoax of the Century, [New York: Carroll & Graf, 1995], photo no. 11, caption).

Reading Gauthier's testimony more carefully -- which, as any respectable JFK researcher knows, is mandatory whenever witnesses are questioned by the artful Mr. Specter -- may solve the "container" mystery while establishing a greater one.

Specter seemingly established only that Gauthier had a "tracing of that survey," which was already wrapped and sealed in the container. Specter asked Gauthier if he "brought a cardboard reproduction of that." To which Gauthier answered, "A copy made from the tracing; yes." Specter then established only that the printing on the cardboard copy represents an exact duplication of the tracing. He then had the pre-sealed "tracing" marked as exhibit 882. The "copy" of the "tracing" was then marked as exhibit 883.

Now the only way anything in this pre-sealed container could bear the typewritten text, "Commission Exhibit No. 882," as this exhibit does (17H 901), and "not be taken out," is if the typewriting was on it before sealing it in the container. That would mean, at minimum, that the person who labeled it knew the exhibit number well in advance of the moment it was introduced as evidence on June 4, 1964. Either that or, unless I am hopelessly confused, Marler is wrong when he says it "was never opened and to date has never been released to the public."

That mystery notwithstanding, Marler reveals more problems for the reader (p. 251): "In order to adequately study these exhibits it may be necessary to make enlargements since the plats were reduced in size to less than a half-page photo in Volume 17 of the Commission's hearings" [sic]. May be necessary? It is necessary. The reader will not find any reproductions of them, large or small, in Assassination Science, however.

The Commission's reproductions cannot be enlarged because of the loss of resolution in the halftone screens the printer used. Slightly more legible reproductions of these exhibits can be found in Harold Weisberg's 1966 book, Whitewash II, p. 243 (CE 585), and Livingstone's 1995 book, Killing Kennedy, photograph numbers 9 (CE 585), 10 (CE 882) and 11 (CE 883).

The reader of Assassination Science does not learn of these sources until 54 pages later in the next article, where an important related article by Daryll Weatherly is also cited: "A Comparison of the Official Reconstructions of the John F. Kennedy Assassination," The Investigator, Winter 1994-95, pp. 6-16; which, on page 11, includes the largest reproduction (8.5 by 11 inches) of the December 5th plat (CE 585).

Weatherly's article, along with research by Marler and others, was the basis of Livingstone's third chapter in Killing Kennedy, which also includes, on page 56, a readable detail enlargement of the bottom of CE 585, showing the legend, an "essential aid in the understanding of any survey," admits Marler (p. 251), and an important revision date ("2-7-64") mentioned by Marler (p. 252), both of which are impossible to see on any of the other reproductions.

The original exhibits are 40 inches by 72 inches, drawn to a scale of "1 inch equals 10 feet" (5H 137). Without the "necessary" and "essential" means to "adequately study these exhibits," what immediate benefit can readers get from Marler's article?

Fortunately, Marler answers that question modestly: "Hopefully, this article provides new research information and raises questions about the assumptions that have been made about the accuracy of the crime scene data used by the Warren Commission."

That it does. By using the exhibit reproductions cited above, I was able to check some of Marler's data. The location of the pairs of traffic lines in the May survey plats (CEs 882 and 883) are in error and placed too far west (downhill) on Elm Street. At the very least, as Marler notes, "This issue is of extreme importance when determining the Zapruder frames in which the oak tree blocked an assassin's view of the motorcade from the sixth floor window" (p. 253).

By using several excellent reproductions of the photograph by Associated Press photographer James Altgens showing the limousine just after the first shot sounded, I was able to verify Marler's claims about it. When the FBI re-enacted that photo (CE 900; Warren Report, p. 113), the re-enactment vehicle was placed too far west, but seemingly in correct alignment with the fifth traffic line painted on the street.

Using West's December plat (CE 585), and visual alignments seen in the Altgens photo between the fifth traffic line, the limousine and the tree in the background, and by verifying it with other landmarks, I was able to plat Altgens' position at the south curb of Elm Street (directly next to the middle of the seventh traffic line just west of the 416.5 street elevation -- he, the driver and Zapruder are aligned at Zapruder frame 343) and thus properly plat the position of the limousine (centered at street elevation 421.25). That in turn verified the correctness of the traffic lines in CE 585 and, from witness statements, the shot sequence shown on that plat. All of which disproves Arlen Specter's single bullet theory.

It is also very easy to verify Marler's observations about CE 884 (17H 902), a data block containing Zapruder film frame numbers, elevations and distances from the re-enactment. It contains data for frames 161, 166 and 210. But Robert West, according to what Marler reports about his field notes, did not make measurements for those frames. The numbers entered for those frames are the ones West entered for frames 168, 171 and 208. It is easy to see in the Warren Commission's reproduction of CE 884 that someone erased the correct frame numbers and wrote in the fake numbers. The result of this alteration was to artificially move the first two frames westward and downward, and the third slightly eastward and upward. As Marler notes, this also has a devastating impact on the authenticity of the filmed movement and speed of the limousine (p. 255).

Suspiciously, frames 208 through 211 were not published by the Warren Commission and, as noted by David Mantik in his Zapruder film article, frames 208 and 210 were among the six frames from the original film (207 through 212) destroyed by Life magazine (p. 305; Josiah Thompson, Six Seconds in Dallas [New York: Berkley, 1967, 1976], pp. 271-74).

Those are also frames in which the limousines occupants were apparently hidden behind a street sign. Supporting Marler's suspicion that "the Zapruder film was altered to increase the height of the Stemmons sign to conceal President Kennedy's reactions when struck by the first bullet," it is easy to verify his observations about the film's re-enactment photos (CEs 888 through 902). Fetzer only published three of them, CE 888 (p. 220), CE 895 (p. 248) and CE 902 (p. 262). But even with that limited information, I was able to verify Marler's observation that the re-enactment camera was at a lower elevation than Zapruder's, thus artificially raising the sign to hide the car's occupants.

Arlen Specter, Marler tells us, was in charge of the May re-enactment. He also authored the single bullet theory between the dates of the December and May re-enactments. Therefore, if possible, "Arlen Specter, who with a sleight of hand introduced altered evidence (CE-883 and CE-884) and concealed the original survey plat, should be tried for obstruction of justice at the very least" (p. 260).

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Chuck could neither explain the rationale behind any of the actions nor could he provide copies of the survey notes, as I did not provide said information to him when I "lead" him to reveal this information.

[Thomas H. Purvis]

Tip Top Post:

Hey David:

Thought perhaps you were snoozing or something.

It was long ago fully demonstrated how the WC could make Z208 = Z210 (the "adjusted position")

Someone other than myself like to demonstrate exactly how, say Z342 or so can actually be about Z357 or so?

top post:

excellent summary Tom......

Not sure I quite understand the aspects of the West Survey you're looking at. Your issue seemd to be a problem with the handling of the chain of evidence regarding these plans and their addmission as WC exibits. As a Surveyor I sure wish you would scan and post all the West survey plans and his fieldwork in their entirity in high resolution jpg or pdf. Can't see much of a reason why one wouldn't post them for all to see. Put the information out there. Maybe it's just me. I am looking at this from a different angle then you are, I think. I'm just a surveyor who'd love to use the West information to begin to make an updated digitized CAD plan of Dealy Plaza on my own. Not looing to make a dime out of it and I would post the resulting digitized drawing derived therefrom. You can create an exact digitized model of Dealy Plaza and get all kinds of information from. You could insert and scale photographs into the drawing for comparsions, check trajectorys all kinds of good stuff Just post the thing. West would want newer generations of Surveyors to build on his framwork.

Not sure I quite understand the aspects of the West Survey you're looking at. Your issue seemd to be a problem with the handling of the chain of evidence regarding these plans and their addmission as WC exibits.

My problem is found within the lies of the WC and their misrepresentation of the facts as relates to the position of JFK at the time/impact of the shots fired in the assassination.

Since you no doubt just got on board, then you are probably not aware that Time/Life started this survey work with Mr. West and he completed a survey plat for them on 11/26/63.

Thereafter, survey work and a survey plat were completed for the US Secret Service during December 2, 3, 4, with the survey plat completed the 5th, and then additional survey work and re-enactment for the FBI was completed on 02/07/64.

EACH and EVERY one of these surveys plotted an impact point for the first shot fired in the assassination.

Yet the WC just could not determine this point, and in fact left us with 10 pages of circular reasoning as regards THE SHOT THAT MISSED and how it may have been the first shot fired.

Without these surveys and their corresponding information, one is not even aware of the trail of lies which ultimately gave us the WC BS. Not to mention that they will never be able to progressively prove these lies.

As a Surveyor I sure wish you would scan and post all the West survey plans and his fieldwork in their entirity in high resolution jpg or pdf. Can't see much of a reason why one wouldn't post them for all to see. Put the information out there. Maybe it's just me. I am looking at this from a different angle then you are, I think. I'm just a surveyor who'd love to use the West information to begin to make an updated digitized CAD plan of Dealy Plaza on my own. Not looing to make a dime out of it and I would post the resulting digitized drawing derived therefrom. You can create an exact digitized model of Dealy Plaza and get all kinds of information from. You could insert and scale photographs into the drawing for comparsions, check trajectorys all kinds of good stuff Just post the thing. West would want newer generations of Surveyors to build on his framwork.

First off, you seem to be unaware as to exactly how many persons are searching for the answers to the questions of the JFK assassination.

And, rest assured that many are doing so for the "big bucks" involved, as well as the personal fame and glory.

So, let me assure you that there are those who would grab any such information and run with it, thereafter to claim it as their own work.

Having already experienced this on more than one occassion, I long ago learned that the information must be delved out in a manner that all who care can gain access to this data.

And, even though some of the "big boys" of the JFK assassination follow closely on this forum, there are also those completely honest persons such as Josiah Thompson, who deserve the final answers to the questions which their work brought out long ago.

Having set in Mr. West's home in Dallas, TX on more than one occassion and discussed the survey work as well as the various re-enactments, as well as presenting Mr. West with that information relative to the altered survey data which the WC did and then introduced into evidence, I must assume that if Mr. West wanted the world to know then he could have provided the information himself.

However, I also recognized that the County Surveyor position is also frequently as much a "political" position as it is a position of qualification.

Personally, I would like to think that it was due to my open and honest discussions with Mr. West that he felt that I was even worthy of providing a safe haven for that information which he had, as he certainly went out of his way to locate and make a copy of everything which he could find, as well as tell me all that he could recall in regards to the survey/re-enactment work in Dealy Plaza.

To include the garbage of what the WC did which ultimately resulted in what we see from their mouth now.

When I also took the time to explain to Mr. West exactly what it was all about, not only did he then fully place the pieces of the puzzel together and recognize the WHY?, but he literally broke out in laughter at what he and his personell had gone through for the WC to further confuse the issue.

The information as regards the survey work in Dealy Plaza as well as what it represents, has, for the most part been kept in my possession since then, with ONLY that information which I deemed necessary being allowed to "leak" out through sources such as Chuck Marler.

And, it was not until such time as I found out of the death of Mr. West that it was determined to re-enter this gallery of rabbit holes and begin to re-introduce a few facts as relates to the assassination of JFK.

Mr. West passed away a few years ago, and upon learning of his death I decided to openly begin to reveal those secrets which apparantly only he and I shared.

As I made no attempt to place any restrictions on the information which I shared and/or gave to him as regards the assassination re-enactments and survey work, neither did Mr. West place any restrictions on me.

And since he continued to live for many years after those early 1990's meetings at his home and telephone calls, then it is assumed that Mr. West could have openly provided ALL of the information which you ask for at any time that he so deemed.

Were it not for the internet and the ability to share this information with those persons who came before me and made honest and rational attempts to resolve the issues of the assassination of JFK, then I would be out planting flowers or doing some other endeavor which is far more rewarding.

However, those such as Mr. Thompson and a few others, have/had taken this subject matter as far as it could be taken at the time, and just as with the true background of LHO, it is now time to share the information with those who are not completely lost in the rabbit holes of multiple assassins and body kidnappings.

It will take "history" a considerable time to absorb, digest, and understand the significance of the West Survey data and it's correlation to the lies of the WC.

And, not unlike any learning proceess, one must understand the basics first.

Already, on this forum, portions of this information have been reporduced and presented with completely false information, to accomodate and buttress the "multiple assassin" theory.

So, the "complete" West Survey's will not be forthcoming, and just as I told John Dolva long ago, I certainly do not have the capability to scan or reproduce a survey plat which measures some 40" X 60" in size (the WC Survey Plat), and thereafter post it on the internet.

And although much of the survey notes could be reproduced, they would merely become another "pawn" in the game of continuation of confusion by those who either intentionally or unknowingly continue to confuse the issue.

The West Survey data is the single most factual pieces ('s) of evidence which exist that can prove absolute and intentional deception on the part of the WC.

It is for a governmental investigative body to see as well as the general world population, at a time (if & when) the US Population is willing to cease to expend their monies on "Alice in Wonderland" theories/books/etc; on the assassination, and recognize exactly, the exact amount of wool that "Specter & Company" pulled over the eyes of the world.

[Thomas H. Purvis]

CE585

http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk...Vol17_0144b.htm

Time to get out those magnification lenses!

As previously stated, this is the FBI version of the survey plat which they had made and "corrected", after their work of February 7, 1964.

However, what one can not tell by looking at CE585, is what shot is what!

1. In reference to the third shot demonstrated, this IS NOT the impact point for Z313.

It is fact the impact point down in front of Mr. Altgens position with a slant distance from the window of the TSDB to the street of 294 feet.

The FBI was apparantly fully aware that the edge of hairline to EOP entry could be made to work/align, ONLY at that point where JFK had leaned well forward with the back of his head in an almost horizontal position and chin down. Thus the FBI apparantly deemed it best to leave this impact point as determined by the US Secret Service during their 12/5/63 survey and re-enactment.

2. In reference to the second shot demonstrated, this IS NOT the impact point for Z313.

In fact, it is not the impact point for anything, and is a point slightly prior to the Z313 position, in the vicinity of Z279 to Z280, shortly after JFK came from behind the lamp post.

This is the position which JEH & Company decided that a second shot could go through JBC due to the manner in which he is turned looking in the direction of JFK.

As most followers of this ever changing tale are aware, JEH indicated that a separate shot struck JBC, and to make this fit, he left the Altgens impact shot alone and in place, and selected this "mid-range" position for the second shot, when JBC is turned in such a position that he could be hit in the shoulder to the right of his shoulder blade.

Thereby completely deleting the Z313 impact and it's inherently visible yellow stripe on the curb of Elm St.

3. In reference to the first shot, the position shown is that position as determined by the US Secret Service during their work in December 1963, which is approximately at the Z210 location.

Therefore, the FBI changed nothing in relationship to the impact point of the first shot, as determined by the Secret Service.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So, the FBI lie of 2/7/64 absolutely could not be allowed to be openly revealed as it demonstrated the known impact point of the third shot down in front of Altgens position.

It completely ignored the head shot at Z313, of which far too many were already aware, and of which multiple copies of the film demonstrated.

And it also demonstrated known information as relates to the determined impact point of the first shot.

But yet, the US Secret Service was fully aware that they had completed a re-enactment and survey in which all three of the impact points for shots fired was done. and although the reference within the WC is to the December 5, 1963 date of the SS work, the revision date clearly demonstrates that this is the FBI revision to this work which effectively changed the location of the impact point of the second shot, while completely deleting the Z313 impact point.

In fact, were it not for Ronald Simmons of the Edgewood arsenal having specifically revealed the existence of this work, it is most likely that we would have ever seen it, and even then it's admission into evidence was quite obviously "slipped in", since I know of no one else who has truly found and evaluated it.

Mr. EISENBERG. Could you explain your reference to a map? You have made several references to that.

Mr. SIMMONS. I refer to the survey plat which is dated December 5, 1963.

Mr. EISENBERG. And how were you supplied with that?

Mr. SIMMONS. To the best of my knowledge, you gave it to one of the employees in my office.

Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Chairman, this is a plat made by a licensed surveyor of the area immediately adjoining the Texas School Book Depository. I would like to introduce it into evidence solely to show the basis which Mr. Simmons was using in his test, and not for the truth, of the measurements which are shown in here.

Mr. McCLOY. It may be received.

Mr. EISENBERG. That would be Commission 585.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 585 and received in evidence.)

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The survey had been provided to Edgewood Arsenal and there was now no way to make it completely disappear as others were fully aware of it's existence.

Therefore, and again, "Hide in plain Sight".

[David G. Healy]

'Thomas H. Purvis' wrote:

'David G. Healy' post='79110' date='Oct 29 2006, 04:37 PM'

Tip Top Post:

Hey David:

Thought perhaps you were snoozing or something.

Hi Tom,

I'm in and out of town for the next few weeks, large project underway at the moment. Perhaps I can take a look see when I get back home... Nice to see you posting again.....

David

It was long ago fully demonstrated how the WC could make Z208 = Z210 (the "adjusted position")

Someone other than myself like to demonstrate exactly how, say Z342 or so can actually be about Z357 or so?

top post:

excellent summary Tom......

Not sure I quite understand the aspects of the West Survey you're looking at. Your issue seemd to be a problem with the handling of the chain of evidence regarding these plans and their addmission as WC exibits. As a Surveyor I sure wish you would scan and post all the West survey plans and his fieldwork in their entirity in high resolution jpg or pdf. Can't see much of a reason why one wouldn't post them for all to see. Put the information out there. Maybe it's just me. I am looking at this from a different angle then you are, I think. I'm just a surveyor who'd love to use the West information to begin to make an updated digitized CAD plan of Dealy Plaza on my own. Not looing to make a dime out of it and I would post the resulting digitized drawing derived therefrom. You can create an exact digitized model of Dealy Plaza and get all kinds of information from. You could insert and scale photographs into the drawing for comparsions, check trajectorys all kinds of good stuff Just post the thing. West would want newer generations of Surveyors to build on his framwork.

Not sure I quite understand the aspects of the West Survey you're looking at. Your issue seemd to be a problem with the handling of the chain of evidence regarding these plans and their addmission as WC exibits.

My problem is found within the lies of the WC and their misrepresentation of the facts as relates to the position of JFK at the time/impact of the shots fired in the assassination.

Since you no doubt just got on board, then you are probably not aware that Time/Life started this survey work with Mr. West and he completed a survey plat for them on 11/26/63.

Thereafter, survey work and a survey plat were completed for the US Secret Service during December 2, 3, 4, with the survey plat completed the 5th, and then additional survey work and re-enactment for the FBI was completed on 02/07/64.

EACH and EVERY one of these surveys plotted an impact point for the first shot fired in the assassination.

Yet the WC just could not determine this point, and in fact left us with 10 pages of circular reasoning as regards THE SHOT THAT MISSED and how it may have been the first shot fired.

Without these surveys and their corresponding information, one is not even aware of the trail of lies which ultimately gave us the WC BS. Not to mention that they will never be able to progressively prove these lies.

As a Surveyor I sure wish you would scan and post all the West survey plans and his fieldwork in their entirity in high resolution jpg or pdf. Can't see much of a reason why one wouldn't post them for all to see. Put the information out there. Maybe it's just me. I am looking at this from a different angle then you are, I think. I'm just a surveyor who'd love to use the West information to begin to make an updated digitized CAD plan of Dealy Plaza on my own. Not looing to make a dime out of it and I would post the resulting digitized drawing derived therefrom. You can create an exact digitized model of Dealy Plaza and get all kinds of information from. You could insert and scale photographs into the drawing for comparsions, check trajectorys all kinds of good stuff Just post the thing. West would want newer generations of Surveyors to build on his framwork.

First off, you seem to be unaware as to exactly how many persons are searching for the answers to the questions of the JFK assassination.

And, rest assured that many are doing so for the "big bucks" involved, as well as the personal fame and glory.

So, let me assure you that there are those who would grab any such information and run with it, thereafter to claim it as their own work.

Having already experienced this on more than one occassion, I long ago learned that the information must be delved out in a manner that all who care can gain access to this data.

And, even though some of the "big boys" of the JFK assassination follow closely on this forum, there are also those completely honest persons such as Josiah Thompson, who deserve the final answers to the questions which their work brought out long ago.

Having set in Mr. West's home in Dallas, TX on more than one occassion and discussed the survey work as well as the various re-enactments, as well as presenting Mr. West with that information relative to the altered survey data which the WC did and then introduced into evidence, I must assume that if Mr. West wanted the world to know then he could have provided the information himself.

However, I also recognized that the County Surveyor position is also frequently as much a "political" position as it is a position of qualification.

Personally, I would like to think that it was due to my open and honest discussions with Mr. West that he felt that I was even worthy of providing a safe haven for that information which he had, as he certainly went out of his way to locate and make a copy of everything which he could find, as well as tell me all that he could recall in regards to the survey/re-enactment work in Dealy Plaza.

To include the garbage of what the WC did which ultimately resulted in what we see from their mouth now.

When I also took the time to explain to Mr. West exactly what it was all about, not only did he then fully place the pieces of the puzzel together and recognize the WHY?, but he literally broke out in laughter at what he and his personell had gone through for the WC to further confuse the issue.

The information as regards the survey work in Dealy Plaza as well as what it represents, has, for the most part been kept in my possession since then, with ONLY that information which I deemed necessary being allowed to "leak" out through sources such as Chuck Marler.

And, it was not until such time as I found out of the death of Mr. West that it was determined to re-enter this gallery of rabbit holes and begin to re-introduce a few facts as relates to the assassination of JFK.

Mr. West passed away a few years ago, and upon learning of his death I decided to openly begin to reveal those secrets which apparantly only he and I shared.

As I made no attempt to place any restrictions on the information which I shared and/or gave to him as regards the assassination re-enactments and survey work, neither did Mr. West place any restrictions on me.

And since he continued to live for many years after those early 1990's meetings at his home and telephone calls, then it is assumed that Mr. West could have openly provided ALL of the information which you ask for at any time that he so deemed.

Were it not for the internet and the ability to share this information with those persons who came before me and made honest and rational attempts to resolve the issues of the assassination of JFK, then I would be out planting flowers or doing some other endeavor which is far more rewarding.

However, those such as Mr. Thompson and a few others, have/had taken this subject matter as far as it could be taken at the time, and just as with the true background of LHO, it is now time to share the information with those who are not completely lost in the rabbit holes of multiple assassins and body kidnappings.

It will take "history" a considerable time to absorb, digest, and understand the significance of the West Survey data and it's correlation to the lies of the WC.

And, not unlike any learning proceess, one must understand the basics first.

Already, on this forum, portions of this information have been reporduced and presented with completely false information, to accomodate and buttress the "multiple assassin" theory.

So, the "complete" West Survey's will not be forthcoming, and just as I told John Dolva long ago, I certainly do not have the capability to scan or reproduce a survey plat which measures some 40" X 60" in size (the WC Survey Plat), and thereafter post it on the internet.

And although much of the survey notes could be reproduced, they would merely become another "pawn" in the game of continuation of confusion by those who either intentionally or unknowingly continue to confuse the issue.

The West Survey data is the single most factual pieces ('s) of evidence which exist that can prove absolute and intentional deception on the part of the WC.

It is for a governmental investigative body to see as well as the general world population, at a time (if & when) the US Population is willing to cease to expend their monies on "Alice in Wonderland" theories/books/etc; on the assassination, and recognize exactly, the exact amount of wool that "Specter & Company" pulled over the eyes of the world.

[Thomas H. Purvis]

Not sure I quite understand the aspects of the West Survey you're looking at. Your issue seemd to be a problem with the handling of the chain of evidence regarding these plans and their addmission as WC exibits. As a Surveyor I sure wish you would scan and post all the West survey plans and his fieldwork in their entirity in high resolution jpg or pdf. Can't see much of a reason why one wouldn't post them for all to see. Put the information out there. Maybe it's just me. I am looking at this from a different angle then you are, I think. I'm just a surveyor who'd love to use the West information to begin to make an updated digitized CAD plan of Dealy Plaza on my own. Not looing to make a dime out of it and I would post the resulting digitized drawing derived therefrom. You can create an exact digitized model of Dealy Plaza and get all kinds of information from. You could insert and scale photographs into the drawing for comparsions, check trajectorys all kinds of good stuff Just post the thing. West would want newer generations of Surveyors to build on his framwork.

Not sure I quite understand the aspects of the West Survey you're looking at. Your issue seemd to be a problem with the handling of the chain of evidence regarding these plans and their addmission as WC exibits.

My problem is found within the lies of the WC and their misrepresentation of the facts as relates to the position of JFK at the time/impact of the shots fired in the assassination.

Since you no doubt just got on board, then you are probably not aware that Time/Life started this survey work with Mr. West and he completed a survey plat for them on 11/26/63.

Thereafter, survey work and a survey plat were completed for the US Secret Service during December 2, 3, 4, with the survey plat completed the 5th, and then additional survey work and re-enactment for the FBI was completed on 02/07/64.

EACH and EVERY one of these surveys plotted an impact point for the first shot fired in the assassination.

Yet the WC just could not determine this point, and in fact left us with 10 pages of circular reasoning as regards THE SHOT THAT MISSED and how it may have been the first shot fired.

Without these surveys and their corresponding information, one is not even aware of the trail of lies which ultimately gave us the WC BS. Not to mention that they will never be able to progressively prove these lies.

As a Surveyor I sure wish you would scan and post all the West survey plans and his fieldwork in their entirity in high resolution jpg or pdf. Can't see much of a reason why one wouldn't post them for all to see. Put the information out there. Maybe it's just me. I am looking at this from a different angle then you are, I think. I'm just a surveyor who'd love to use the West information to begin to make an updated digitized CAD plan of Dealy Plaza on my own. Not looing to make a dime out of it and I would post the resulting digitized drawing derived therefrom. You can create an exact digitized model of Dealy Plaza and get all kinds of information from. You could insert and scale photographs into the drawing for comparsions, check trajectorys all kinds of good stuff Just post the thing. West would want newer generations of Surveyors to build on his framwork.

First off, you seem to be unaware as to exactly how many persons are searching for the answers to the questions of the JFK assassination.

And, rest assured that many are doing so for the "big bucks" involved, as well as the personal fame and glory.

So, let me assure you that there are those who would grab any such information and run with it, thereafter to claim it as their own work.

Having already experienced this on more than one occassion, I long ago learned that the information must be delved out in a manner that all who care can gain access to this data.

And, even though some of the "big boys" of the JFK assassination follow closely on this forum, there are also those completely honest persons such as Josiah Thompson, who deserve the final answers to the questions which their work brought out long ago.

Having set in Mr. West's home in Dallas, TX on more than one occassion and discussed the survey work as well as the various re-enactments, as well as presenting Mr. West with that information relative to the altered survey data which the WC did and then introduced into evidence, I must assume that if Mr. West wanted the world to know then he could have provided the information himself.

However, I also recognized that the County Surveyor position is also frequently as much a "political" position as it is a position of qualification.

Personally, I would like to think that it was due to my open and honest discussions with Mr. West that he felt that I was even worthy of providing a safe haven for that information which he had, as he certainly went out of his way to locate and make a copy of everything which he could find, as well as tell me all that he could recall in regards to the survey/re-enactment work in Dealy Plaza.

To include the garbage of what the WC did which ultimately resulted in what we see from their mouth now.

When I also took the time to explain to Mr. West exactly what it was all about, not only did he then fully place the pieces of the puzzel together and recognize the WHY?, but he literally broke out in laughter at what he and his personell had gone through for the WC to further confuse the issue.

The information as regards the survey work in Dealy Plaza as well as what it represents, has, for the most part been kept in my possession since then, with ONLY that information which I deemed necessary being allowed to "leak" out through sources such as Chuck Marler.

And, it was not until such time as I found out of the death of Mr. West that it was determined to re-enter this gallery of rabbit holes and begin to re-introduce a few facts as relates to the assassination of JFK.

Mr. West passed away a few years ago, and upon learning of his death I decided to openly begin to reveal those secrets which apparantly only he and I shared.

As I made no attempt to place any restrictions on the information which I shared and/or gave to him as regards the assassination re-enactments and survey work, neither did Mr. West place any restrictions on me.

And since he continued to live for many years after those early 1990's meetings at his home and telephone calls, then it is assumed that Mr. West could have openly provided ALL of the information which you ask for at any time that he so deemed.

Were it not for the internet and the ability to share this information with those persons who came before me and made honest and rational attempts to resolve the issues of the assassination of JFK, then I would be out planting flowers or doing some other endeavor which is far more rewarding.

However, those such as Mr. Thompson and a few others, have/had taken this subject matter as far as it could be taken at the time, and just as with the true background of LHO, it is now time to share the information with those who are not completely lost in the rabbit holes of multiple assassins and body kidnappings.

It will take "history" a considerable time to absorb, digest, and understand the significance of the West Survey data and it's correlation to the lies of the WC.

And, not unlike any learning proceess, one must understand the basics first.

Already, on this forum, portions of this information have been reporduced and presented with completely false information, to accomodate and buttress the "multiple assassin" theory.

So, the "complete" West Survey's will not be forthcoming, and just as I told John Dolva long ago, I certainly do not have the capability to scan or reproduce a survey plat which measures some 40" X 60" in size (the WC Survey Plat), and thereafter post it on the internet.

And although much of the survey notes could be reproduced, they would merely become another "pawn" in the game of continuation of confusion by those who either intentionally or unknowingly continue to confuse the issue.

The West Survey data is the single most factual pieces ('s) of evidence which exist that can prove absolute and intentional deception on the part of the WC.

It is for a governmental investigative body to see as well as the general world population, at a time (if & when) the US Population is willing to cease to expend their monies on "Alice in Wonderland" theories/books/etc; on the assassination, and recognize exactly, the exact amount of wool that "Specter & Company" pulled over the eyes of the world.

http://www.acorn.net/jfkplace/09/fp.back_i...sue/fetzer.html

4) Chuck Marler's study of "the Warren Commission's use of phoney numbers that were changed from those established by the original surveyors of Dealey Plaza."

Some of the findings reported by Chuck Marler are the most monumental in Assassination Science. Others are preliminary but promising.

According to Marler (p. 250), "analysis of existing Warren Commission exhibits, along with the discovery of new documents, now establishes a clear and convincing case that the survey measurements made for the Warren Commission by Robert H. West, Dallas County Surveyor, were altered, the 24 May 1964, re-enactment was orchestrated by Arlen Specter to insure his single bullet theory would not be contradicted, and the Zapruder film was altered to conceal footage that would have proved President Kennedy was struck by multiple assassins. Initial evidence of the crime scene and the shooting sequences as established by the Zapruder film produced a different version of the assassination than depicted in the Warren Commission's final report. To understand what occurred, it is necessary to study the evidence and exhibits that had been produced prior to 24 May 1964."

If Marler's case can be proved, presidential hopeful Senator Arlen Specter, R-Pa., is guilty of obstruction of justice, which makes it even more necessary to study this evidence and these exhibits. Regrettably, Fetzer and Marler have made that task more difficult than it might have been.

The existing Warren Commission exhibits (CEs) Marler refers to are CEs 585, 882, 883 and 884. One of the "new documents" is the 1964 field notes of re-enactment surveyor Robert H. West who conducted all of the three known surveys, including the November 26, 1963 survey -- the first -- commissioned by the Time-Life Corporation. That first plat, according to Marler, presumably the second of the "new documents," has not yet been made public.

West's second survey was commissioned by the Secret Service and done on December 5, 1963. CE 585 (17H 262) is the resulting plat. West's third survey was commissioned by the Warren Commission and done on May 24, 1964. It resulted in at least two plats, CE 882 and 883 (17H 901). I say "at least" because, according to Marler (p. 251), CE 882 "came wrapped and sealed in a container--one which was never opened and to date has never been released to the public. It was Commission Counsel Arlen Specter who asked Chairman Earl Warren that the seal not be broken and the plat not be taken out of its container. Mr. Specter instead introduced what was represented as a cardboard reproduction of Mr. West's survey as CE-883. Specter also introduced as CE-884, a tabulation of elevations and angles for selected Zapruder film frames which Specter stated were also contained on the sealed survey map."

Supporting this mysterious introduction of evidence by Specter, Marler cites the testimony of Leo J. Gauthier, head of the FBI's exhibit section (5H 136-37). Sure enough, the testimony shows that Specter seems to have done exactly what Marler reported. However, unless I am confused, Marler never explained why CE 882 does not depict a container, sealed or otherwise. It depicts a survey plat. The only difference between it and its "cardboard reproduction" (CE 883) is the addition on the latter of a few more landmarks and witness position labels (Harrison E. Livingstone, Killing Kennedy and the Hoax of the Century, [New York: Carroll & Graf, 1995], photo no. 11, caption).

Reading Gauthier's testimony more carefully -- which, as any respectable JFK researcher knows, is mandatory whenever witnesses are questioned by the artful Mr. Specter -- may solve the "container" mystery while establishing a greater one.

Specter seemingly established only that Gauthier had a "tracing of that survey," which was already wrapped and sealed in the container. Specter asked Gauthier if he "brought a cardboard reproduction of that." To which Gauthier answered, "A copy made from the tracing; yes." Specter then established only that the printing on the cardboard copy represents an exact duplication of the tracing. He then had the pre-sealed "tracing" marked as exhibit 882. The "copy" of the "tracing" was then marked as exhibit 883.

Now the only way anything in this pre-sealed container could bear the typewritten text, "Commission Exhibit No. 882," as this exhibit does (17H 901), and "not be taken out," is if the typewriting was on it before sealing it in the container. That would mean, at minimum, that the person who labeled it knew the exhibit number well in advance of the moment it was introduced as evidence on June 4, 1964. Either that or, unless I am hopelessly confused, Marler is wrong when he says it "was never opened and to date has never been released to the public."

That mystery notwithstanding, Marler reveals more problems for the reader (p. 251): "In order to adequately study these exhibits it may be necessary to make enlargements since the plats were reduced in size to less than a half-page photo in Volume 17 of the Commission's hearings" [sic]. May be necessary? It is necessary. The reader will not find any reproductions of them, large or small, in Assassination Science, however.

The Commission's reproductions cannot be enlarged because of the loss of resolution in the halftone screens the printer used. Slightly more legible reproductions of these exhibits can be found in Harold Weisberg's 1966 book, Whitewash II, p. 243 (CE 585), and Livingstone's 1995 book, Killing Kennedy, photograph numbers 9 (CE 585), 10 (CE 882) and 11 (CE 883).

The reader of Assassination Science does not learn of these sources until 54 pages later in the next article, where an important related article by Daryll Weatherly is also cited: "A Comparison of the Official Reconstructions of the John F. Kennedy Assassination," The Investigator, Winter 1994-95, pp. 6-16; which, on page 11, includes the largest reproduction (8.5 by 11 inches) of the December 5th plat (CE 585).

Weatherly's article, along with research by Marler and others, was the basis of Livingstone's third chapter in Killing Kennedy, which also includes, on page 56, a readable detail enlargement of the bottom of CE 585, showing the legend, an "essential aid in the understanding of any survey," admits Marler (p. 251), and an important revision date ("2-7-64") mentioned by Marler (p. 252), both of which are impossible to see on any of the other reproductions.

The original exhibits are 40 inches by 72 inches, drawn to a scale of "1 inch equals 10 feet" (5H 137). Without the "necessary" and "essential" means to "adequately study these exhibits," what immediate benefit can readers get from Marler's article?

Fortunately, Marler answers that question modestly: "Hopefully, this article provides new research information and raises questions about the assumptions that have been made about the accuracy of the crime scene data used by the Warren Commission."

That it does. By using the exhibit reproductions cited above, I was able to check some of Marler's data. The location of the pairs of traffic lines in the May survey plats (CEs 882 and 883) are in error and placed too far west (downhill) on Elm Street. At the very least, as Marler notes, "This issue is of extreme importance when determining the Zapruder frames in which the oak tree blocked an assassin's view of the motorcade from the sixth floor window" (p. 253).

By using several excellent reproductions of the photograph by Associated Press photographer James Altgens showing the limousine just after the first shot sounded, I was able to verify Marler's claims about it. When the FBI re-enacted that photo (CE 900; Warren Report, p. 113), the re-enactment vehicle was placed too far west, but seemingly in correct alignment with the fifth traffic line painted on the street.

Using West's December plat (CE 585), and visual alignments seen in the Altgens photo between the fifth traffic line, the limousine and the tree in the background, and by verifying it with other landmarks, I was able to plat Altgens' position at the south curb of Elm Street (directly next to the middle of the seventh traffic line just west of the 416.5 street elevation -- he, the driver and Zapruder are aligned at Zapruder frame 343) and thus properly plat the position of the limousine (centered at street elevation 421.25). That in turn verified the correctness of the traffic lines in CE 585 and, from witness statements, the shot sequence shown on that plat. All of which disproves Arlen Specter's single bullet theory.

It is also very easy to verify Marler's observations about CE 884 (17H 902), a data block containing Zapruder film frame numbers, elevations and distances from the re-enactment. It contains data for frames 161, 166 and 210. But Robert West, according to what Marler reports about his field notes, did not make measurements for those frames. The numbers entered for those frames are the ones West entered for frames 168, 171 and 208. It is easy to see in the Warren Commission's reproduction of CE 884 that someone erased the correct frame numbers and wrote in the fake numbers. The result of this alteration was to artificially move the first two frames westward and downward, and the third slightly eastward and upward. As Marler notes, this also has a devastating impact on the authenticity of the filmed movement and speed of the limousine (p. 255).

Suspiciously, frames 208 through 211 were not published by the Warren Commission and, as noted by David Mantik in his Zapruder film article, frames 208 and 210 were among the six frames from the original film (207 through 212) destroyed by Life magazine (p. 305; Josiah Thompson, Six Seconds in Dallas [New York: Berkley, 1967, 1976], pp. 271-74).

Those are also frames in which the limousines occupants were apparently hidden behind a street sign. Supporting Marler's suspicion that "the Zapruder film was altered to increase the height of the Stemmons sign to conceal President Kennedy's reactions when struck by the first bullet," it is easy to verify his observations about the film's re-enactment photos (CEs 888 through 902). Fetzer only published three of them, CE 888 (p. 220), CE 895 (p. 248) and CE 902 (p. 262). But even with that limited information, I was able to verify Marler's observation that the re-enactment camera was at a lower elevation than Zapruder's, thus artificially raising the sign to hide the car's occupants.

Arlen Specter, Marler tells us, was in charge of the May re-enactment. He also authored the single bullet theory between the dates of the December and May re-enactments. Therefore, if possible, "Arlen Specter, who with a sleight of hand introduced altered evidence (CE-883 and CE-884) and concealed the original survey plat, should be tried for obstruction of justice at the very least" (p. 260).

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Chuck could neither explain the rationale behind any of the actions nor could he provide copies of the survey notes, as I did not provide said information to him when I "lead" him to reveal this information.

Either that or, unless I am hopelessly confused, Marler is wrong when he says it "was never opened and to date has never been released to the public."

Nope! Chuck was not wrong, and he was merely repeating what I informed him of.

Since CE882 DOES NOT demonstrate the curb removal section, then rest assured that is not a copy of the original, and the original survey has never been released to the public.

and the Zapruder film was altered to conceal footage that would have proved President Kennedy was struck by multiple assassins.

Nope! And one can rest assured that I had nothing to do with this comment.

the first -- commissioned by the Time-Life Corporation. That first plat, according to Marler, presumably the second of the "new documents," has not yet been made public.

Chuck couldnot reveal it. He did not have it. I did!------Anyone who was watching, got to see it here.

West's third survey was commissioned by the Warren Commission and done on May 24, 1964

Nope! The WC was the fourth.

First:---------------------------------Time/Life

Second:------------------------------US Secret Service

Third:---------------------------------FBI

Fourth:--------------------------------WC May 31, 1964

Fifth:-----------------------------------June 25, 1964--------We have not talked about this one yet.

Never place all of your eggs in one basket, and never tell ALL of your secrets to one person.

One of the "new documents" is the 1964 field notes of re-enactment surveyor Robert H. West who conducted all of the three known surveys, including the November 26, 1963 survey

Actually, the "new documents" consist of the survey notes for the Time/Life survey; the survey notes for the US Secret Service Survey; the survey notes for the WC survey; the survey notes from where Mr. West was contacted and informed to go measure the exact sizes and locations of the two road signs in Dealy Plaza.

Weatherly's article, along with research by Marler and others, was the basis of Livingstone's third chapter in Killing Kennedy, which also includes, on page 56, a readable detail enlargement of the bottom of CE 585, showing the legend, an "essential aid in the understanding of any survey," admits Marler (p. 251), and an important revision date ("2-7-64") mentioned by Marler (p. 252), both of which are impossible to see on any of the other reproductions.

Yep! That is exactly what the "Revision Block" states. Too bad that they could not see that shot# 3 impacted directly down in front of Mr. Altgens.

It is also very easy to verify Marler's observations about CE 884 (17H 902), a data block containing Zapruder film frame numbers, elevations and distances from the re-enactment. It contains data for frames 161, 166 and 210. But Robert West, according to what Marler reports about his field notes, did not make measurements for those frames. The numbers entered for those frames are the ones West entered for frames 168, 171 and 208. It is easy to see in the Warren Commission's reproduction of CE 884 that someone erased the correct frame numbers and wrote in the fake numbers. The result of this alteration was to artificially move the first two frames westward and downward, and the third slightly eastward and upward. As Marler notes, this also has a devastating impact on the authenticity of the filmed movement and speed of the limousine (p. 255).

Not unlike my final approval for JFK Lancer to publish the original of this information, it was not explained to them as to the rationale, just as it was not explained to Chuck.

But even with that limited information, I was able to verify Marler's observation that the re-enactment camera was at a lower elevation than Zapruder's, thus artificially raising the sign to hide the car's occupants.

Not too difficult to find things when someone specifically points them out to you, huh Chuck!

"Arlen Specter, who with a sleight of hand introduced altered evidence

It is "slight" of hand. Were it true sleight-of-hand, then I would have neither seen nor found it. Therefore it was considerably more "slight" than sleight.

Mr. Specter could never have envisioned the internet and the ability to share with the world the games that he and his grouping played.

And although I firmly disagree with some of the political philosophy of John Simkin, those who do seek the facts of the JFK assassination, owe a debt of gratitude to him and this forum.

At least with this, one may have some idea as to exactly who is chasing rabbits and who is making honest attempts to unravel the few remaining knots. Not to mention those who completely have their head stuck in the sand-----or elsewheres!

[Thomas H. Purvis]

CE585

http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk...Vol17_0144b.htm

Time to get out those magnification lenses!

As previously stated, this is the FBI version of the survey plat which they had made and "corrected", after their work of February 7, 1964.

However, what one can not tell by looking at CE585, is what shot is what!

1. In reference to the third shot demonstrated, this IS NOT the impact point for Z313.

It is fact the impact point down in front of Mr. Altgens position with a slant distance from the window of the TSDB to the street of 294 feet.

The FBI was apparantly fully aware that the edge of hairline to EOP entry could be made to work/align, ONLY at that point where JFK had leaned well forward with the back of his head in an almost horizontal position and chin down. Thus the FBI apparantly deemed it best to leave this impact point as determined by the US Secret Service during their 12/5/63 survey and re-enactment.

2. In reference to the second shot demonstrated, this IS NOT the impact point for Z313.

In fact, it is not the impact point for anything, and is a point slightly prior to the Z313 position, in the vicinity of Z279 to Z280, shortly after JFK came from behind the lamp post.

This is the position which JEH & Company decided that a second shot could go through JBC due to the manner in which he is turned looking in the direction of JFK.

As most followers of this ever changing tale are aware, JEH indicated that a separate shot struck JBC, and to make this fit, he left the Altgens impact shot alone and in place, and selected this "mid-range" position for the second shot, when JBC is turned in such a position that he could be hit in the shoulder to the right of his shoulder blade.

Thereby completely deleting the Z313 impact and it's inherently visible yellow stripe on the curb of Elm St.

3. In reference to the first shot, the position shown is that position as determined by the US Secret Service during their work in December 1963, which is approximately at the Z210 location.

Therefore, the FBI changed nothing in relationship to the impact point of the first shot, as determined by the Secret Service.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So, the FBI lie of 2/7/64 absolutely could not be allowed to be openly revealed as it demonstrated the known impact point of the third shot down in front of Altgens position.

It completely ignored the head shot at Z313, of which far too many were already aware, and of which multiple copies of the film demonstrated.

And it also demonstrated known information as relates to the determined impact point of the first shot.

But yet, the US Secret Service was fully aware that they had completed a re-enactment and survey in which all three of the impact points for shots fired was done. and although the reference within the WC is to the December 5, 1963 date of the SS work, the revision date clearly demonstrates that this is the FBI revision to this work which effectively changed the location of the impact point of the second shot, while completely deleting the Z313 impact point.

In fact, were it not for Ronald Simmons of the Edgewood arsenal having specifically revealed the existence of this work, it is most likely that we would have ever seen it, and even then it's admission into evidence was quite obviously "slipped in", since I know of no one else who has truly found and evaluated it.

Mr. EISENBERG. Could you explain your reference to a map? You have made several references to that.

Mr. SIMMONS. I refer to the survey plat which is dated December 5, 1963.

Mr. EISENBERG. And how were you supplied with that?

Mr. SIMMONS. To the best of my knowledge, you gave it to one of the employees in my office.

Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Chairman, this is a plat made by a licensed surveyor of the area immediately adjoining the Texas School Book Depository. I would like to introduce it into evidence solely to show the basis which Mr. Simmons was using in his test, and not for the truth, of the measurements which are shown in here.

Mr. McCLOY. It may be received.

Mr. EISENBERG. That would be Commission 585.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 585 and received in evidence.)

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The survey had been provided to Edgewood Arsenal and there was now no way to make it completely disappear as others were fully aware of it's existence.

Therefore, and again, "Hide in plain Sight".

However, what one can not tell by looking at CE585, is what shot is what!

1. In reference to the third shot demonstrated, this IS NOT the impact point for Z313.

It is fact the impact point down in front of Mr. Altgens position with a slant distance from the window of the TSDB to the street of 294 feet.

Mr. SIMMONS. Yes; we did. We placed three targets, which were head and shoulder silhouettes, at distances of 175 feet, 240 feet, and 265 feet, and these distances are slant ranges from the window ledge of a tower which is about 30 feet high. We used three firers in an attempt to obtain hits on all three targets within as short a time interval as possible.

Mr. EISENBERG. Can you state where you derived these distances?

Mr. SIMMONS. These distances were the values given on the survey map which were given to us.

Mr. EISENBERG. Are you sure they were not the values I gave to you myself?

Mr. SIMMONS. I stand corrected. These are values--we were informed that the numbers on the survey map were possibly in error. The distances are very close, however.

Mr. EISENBERG. For the record, the figures which I gave Mr. Simmons are approximations and are not to be taken as the Commission's conclusive determination of what those distances are.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

As regards the last shot, it would be my hope that anyone who takes the time to review this information would see the considerable discrepency between a distance of 294 feet (slant distance to impact in front of James Altgens) and the 265 feet distance which Eisenberg gave to Ronald Simmons.

Not to mention the fact that the 265 feet (actually 267 feet on the SS Survey Plat) is the slant distance to the impact point of Z313, which the FBI revised survey (CE585) does not show.

And, since the FBI revised survey does not demonstrate this distance, and had in fact moved the second shot to a distance of 242 feet slant distance, thereby ignoring what the SS had resolved, it clearly demonstrates that Eisenberg aka Specter & Company were fully cognizant of information which was gained only by the SS Survey and re-enactment of 12/5/63, and again demonstrates an intentional attempt to divert attention away from information which the general public was never made aware of.

http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk...Vol17_0139a.htm

Which is again fully demonstrated by the Eisenberg drawing of 3/27/64 in which the first shot impact point street elevation of Elm St. is accurately shown, as well as the Z313 impact point street elevation, as clearly determined during the SS Survey work and survey plat of 12/5/63.

Watch closely folks, a shot is about to completely disappear, and another lie, which will ultimately have to change again, is about to be generated.

Edited October 30, 2006 by Thomas H. Purvis

[Thomas H. Purvis]

CE585

http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk...Vol17_0144b.htm

Time to get out those magnification lenses!

As previously stated, this is the FBI version of the survey plat which they had made and "corrected", after their work of February 7, 1964.

However, what one can not tell by looking at CE585, is what shot is what!

1. In reference to the third shot demonstrated, this IS NOT the impact point for Z313.

It is fact the impact point down in front of Mr. Altgens position with a slant distance from the window of the TSDB to the street of 294 feet.

The FBI was apparantly fully aware that the edge of hairline to EOP entry could be made to work/align, ONLY at that point where JFK had leaned well forward with the back of his head in an almost horizontal position and chin down. Thus the FBI apparantly deemed it best to leave this impact point as determined by the US Secret Service during their 12/5/63 survey and re-enactment.

2. In reference to the second shot demonstrated, this IS NOT the impact point for Z313.

In fact, it is not the impact point for anything, and is a point slightly prior to the Z313 position, in the vicinity of Z279 to Z280, shortly after JFK came from behind the lamp post.

This is the position which JEH & Company decided that a second shot could go through JBC due to the manner in which he is turned looking in the direction of JFK.

As most followers of this ever changing tale are aware, JEH indicated that a separate shot struck JBC, and to make this fit, he left the Altgens impact shot alone and in place, and selected this "mid-range" position for the second shot, when JBC is turned in such a position that he could be hit in the shoulder to the right of his shoulder blade.

Thereby completely deleting the Z313 impact and it's inherently visible yellow stripe on the curb of Elm St.

3. In reference to the first shot, the position shown is that position as determined by the US Secret Service during their work in December 1963, which is approximately at the Z210 location.

Therefore, the FBI changed nothing in relationship to the impact point of the first shot, as determined by the Secret Service.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So, the FBI lie of 2/7/64 absolutely could not be allowed to be openly revealed as it demonstrated the known impact point of the third shot down in front of Altgens position.

It completely ignored the head shot at Z313, of which far too many were already aware, and of which multiple copies of the film demonstrated.

And it also demonstrated known information as relates to the determined impact point of the first shot.

But yet, the US Secret Service was fully aware that they had completed a re-enactment and survey in which all three of the impact points for shots fired was done. and although the reference within the WC is to the December 5, 1963 date of the SS work, the revision date clearly demonstrates that this is the FBI revision to this work which effectively changed the location of the impact point of the second shot, while completely deleting the Z313 impact point.

In fact, were it not for Ronald Simmons of the Edgewood arsenal having specifically revealed the existence of this work, it is most likely that we would have ever seen it, and even then it's admission into evidence was quite obviously "slipped in", since I know of no one else who has truly found and evaluated it.

Mr. EISENBERG. Could you explain your reference to a map? You have made several references to that.

Mr. SIMMONS. I refer to the survey plat which is dated December 5, 1963.

Mr. EISENBERG. And how were you supplied with that?

Mr. SIMMONS. To the best of my knowledge, you gave it to one of the employees in my office.

Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Chairman, this is a plat made by a licensed surveyor of the area immediately adjoining the Texas School Book Depository. I would like to introduce it into evidence solely to show the basis which Mr. Simmons was using in his test, and not for the truth, of the measurements which are shown in here.

Mr. McCLOY. It may be received.

Mr. EISENBERG. That would be Commission 585.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 585 and received in evidence.)

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The survey had been provided to Edgewood Arsenal and there was now no way to make it completely disappear as others were fully aware of it's existence.

Therefore, and again, "Hide in plain Sight".

However, what one can not tell by looking at CE585, is what shot is what!

1. In reference to the third shot demonstrated, this IS NOT the impact point for Z313.

It is fact the impact point down in front of Mr. Altgens position with a slant distance from the window of the TSDB to the street of 294 feet.

Mr. SIMMONS. Yes; we did. We placed three targets, which were head and shoulder silhouettes, at distances of 175 feet, 240 feet, and 265 feet, and these distances are slant ranges from the window ledge of a tower which is about 30 feet high. We used three firers in an attempt to obtain hits on all three targets within as short a time interval as possible.

Mr. EISENBERG. Can you state where you derived these distances?

Mr. SIMMONS. These distances were the values given on the survey map which were given to us.

Mr. EISENBERG. Are you sure they were not the values I gave to you myself?

Mr. SIMMONS. I stand corrected. These are values--we were informed that the numbers on the survey map were possibly in error. The distances are very close, however.

Mr. EISENBERG. For the record, the figures which I gave Mr. Simmons are approximations and are not to be taken as the Commission's conclusive determination of what those distances are.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

As regards the last shot, it would be my hope that anyone who takes the time to review this information would see the considerable discrepency between a distance of 294 feet (slant distance to impact in front of James Altgens) and the 265 feet distance which Eisenberg gave to Ronald Simmons.

Not to mention the fact that the 265 feet (actually 267 feet on the SS Survey Plat) is the slant distance to the impact point of Z313, which the FBI revised survey (CE585) does not show.

And, since the FBI revised survey does not demonstrate this distance, and had in fact moved the second shot to a distance of 242 feet slant distance, thereby ignoring what the SS had resolved, it clearly demonstrates that Eisenberg aka Specter & Company were fully cognizant of information which was gained only by the SS Survey and re-enactment of 12/5/63, and again demonstrates an intentional attempt to divert attention away from information which the general public was never made aware of.

http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk...Vol17_0139a.htm

Which is again fully demonstrated by the Eisenberg drawing of 3/27/64 in which the first shot impact point street elevation of Elm St. is accurately shown, as well as the Z313 impact point street elevation, as clearly determined during the SS Survey work and survey plat of 12/5/63.

Watch closely folks, a shot is about to completely disappear, and another lie, which will ultimately have to change again, is about to be generated.

Here is the impact point street elevation as well as the distance back to the intersection of the sidewalk and wall of the TSDB, for the third/last/final shot which struck directly in front of Mr. Altgens position.

This copy is made directly from the FBI "revised" (2/7/64) survey plat (CE585), which is also exactly the

same impact for the third shot as determined by the US Secret Service (12/5/63).

However, and again, keep a close eye on this one as Specter & Company are about to perform another "disappearing act".

http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk...Vol17_0139a.htm

P.S. elevation 418 (418.38 +/-) is the Z313 firmly established impact point.

[Bob Goodman]

"In event anyone desires larger copies of Mr. West Survey notes for the above data, just yell.

I will have to delete the Data Block in order to post the information. However, in honor of Mr. West, I will make an attempt to share the data and information which he entrusted to me.

Tom

P.S. Many of the survey notes were written in pencil and therefore do not come out nearly as clearly as does the survey data block."

Well. I for one sure would.

[Jack White]

For some reason, Purvis thinks he is the sole source

for DP plats by Mssrs. West and Breneman.

Jack

[Bob Goodman]

Thanks. It certainly is better then the one the WC puts out. But, obviously not as high a resolution as the portions of the plan previously posted. West sounds like a very typical old time surveyor. I came up around these guys. I, of course, I never met Mr. West. But I have definitly worked with guys like him all my life. Surveying is and unusual profession in the United States. It attract's certain type of individual. Guys like Mr. West are the straightest shooters there are and they all seem to make the same style of plan, neat, attractive to the eye and above all accurate (don't get me wrong of course mistakes happen). I would take his word over anyone's as to what happened in DP. Too bad he didn't have a better view. He said 4 shots, didn't he? Stuck to his guns too later on. A guy like West would never change his story. I know. I have had the pleasure of working with guys just like him all my life. Few and far between now, but some are still out there a number of them in my profession. I could go on about exactly how this profession, Land Surveying, makes the type of man that West was. But you sure don't want to hear me bragging for a couple hours.

[Jack White]

Thanks. It certainly is better then the one the WC puts out. But, obviously not as high a resolution as the portions of the plan previously posted. West sounds like a very typical old time surveyor. I came up around these guys. I, of course, I never met Mr. West. But I have definitly worked with guys like him all my life. Surveying is and unusual profession in the United States. It attract's certain type of individual. Guys like Mr. West are the straightest shooters there are and they all seem to make the same style of plan, neat, attractive to the eye and above all accurate (don't get me wrong of course mistakes happen). I would take his word over anyone's as to what happened in DP. Too bad he didn't have a better view. He said 4 shots, didn't he? Stuck to his guns too later on. A guy like West would never change his story. I know. I have had the pleasure of working with guys just like him all my life. Few and far between now, but some are still out there a number of them in my profession. I could go on about exactly how this profession, Land Surveying, makes the type of man that West was. But you sure don't want to hear me bragging for a couple hours.

Are you the same Bob Goodman who used to hang around Dealey Plaza a lot

and is a friend of Jim Marrs? What I posted is from a xerox copy of the West/Breneman/Life

plat which Jim gave me. Purvis claims that someone stole it from HIM, even though

it was given to Jim more than 20 years ago.

Jack

Edited October 31, 2006 by Jack White

[Bob Goodman]

Hi Jack. No, that wasn't me. Although hanging around Dealy Plaza with Jim Maars sure sounds like like a good way to spend a sunny day in November. My life is a tad more boring, to say the least. Just an old county surveyor here. Up to date on the technology and the CAD applications though, and their implications for future study of of the assassination. It is essintial to start from scratch, using and building on the existing work. Who knows where it could lead? All this survey information should be accessable to the public in a form that they can use. That shows all the detail of plans, fieldbooks and supporting documents. It's shocking that the public doesn't have access to this information. I can't believe other surveyors aren't harrassing you guy for this information. But then, most of the guys I know like the civil war, revolutionary war enactments, retracing Lewis and Clark, things like that. In fact, I am the only surveyor I know with an interest in the assassination from a survey perspective.

[Thomas H. Purvis]

For some reason, Purvis thinks he is the sole source

for DP plats by Mssrs. West and Breneman.

Jack

Jack;

I could care less as to where you got "your" copy of portions of the West Survey.

However, and as indicated and referenced, this a copy of my work, with the lines drawn in to the impact point of the first shot at approximately Z204/206 as determined by the survey data gained from the Time/Life Survey.

It also contains the line drawn from the sixth floor of the TSDB to the impact point of Z313.

Not unlike the "Marler" information, I shared information with numerous persons, knowning full well that they would not be able to "sit" on it, and that I would thereafter see it again.

So, even with what I have previously informed you, there are still items on the copy which you posted which will, should I so deem, demonstrate quite clearly that the original source of this document is ME, irrelevant as to where you may have obtained it.

That you and a few others have taken factual information (the survey) and drawn in all of your little garbage as regards curb strikes, etc, merely demonstrates exactly how desperate a few of you are to come up with something to support your asinine multiple assassin and body kidnapping scenarios.

The "Original Source" of the drawing which you posted is Mr. West.

The Second Source, is myself.

And, I could care less as to who you may have obtained it from, or when.

If you want me to share with the viewing public additional information which will demonstrate that I am the source, and add to the continuation of making a fool of you, then just say so.

I have already wasted more than adequate time in demonstrating the BS as regards the curb strilkes which you somehow now attribute to Brennan and Mr. West and have drawn in all over the survey plat.

So, since I am the only person out on this limb who has informed everyone that the first line drawn on this survey plat terminates at approximately Z204/206, as determined and plated on the Time/Life Survey of 11/26/63, and thereafter transferred to the survey plats in my possession, why don't you attempt to explain exactly how it is that anyone managed to draw this line on "your copy" of the survey plat when in fact they and you did not even know what it was all about.

Come on Jack! Enquiring minds would certainly appreciate the answer to that one.

Want to hear about the other things on the plat which will provide the tracebility directly back to me Jack?

They are so subtile that neither you nor anyone else is likely to find them, but be my guest.

[Thomas H. Purvis]

Thanks. It certainly is better then the one the WC puts out. But, obviously not as high a resolution as the portions of the plan previously posted. West sounds like a very typical old time surveyor. I came up around these guys. I, of course, I never met Mr. West. But I have definitly worked with guys like him all my life. Surveying is and unusual profession in the United States. It attract's certain type of individual. Guys like Mr. West are the straightest shooters there are and they all seem to make the same style of plan, neat, attractive to the eye and above all accurate (don't get me wrong of course mistakes happen). I would take his word over anyone's as to what happened in DP. Too bad he didn't have a better view. He said 4 shots, didn't he? Stuck to his guns too later on. A guy like West would never change his story. I know. I have had the pleasure of working with guys just like him all my life. Few and far between now, but some are still out there a number of them in my profession. I could go on about exactly how this profession, Land Surveying, makes the type of man that West was. But you sure don't want to hear me bragging for a couple hours.

Are you the same Bob Goodman who used to hang around Dealey Plaza a lot

and is a friend of Jim Marrs? What I posted is from a xerox copy of the West/Breneman/Life

plat which Jim gave me. Purvis claims that someone stole it from HIM, even though

it was given to Jim more than 20 years ago.

Jack

Purvis claims that someone stole it from HIM, even though

it was given to Jim more than 20 years ago.

That Jack, happens to be another of your lies.

And, before this subject matter is ended, I will, demonstrate what a complete fool you are in your claims as regards receiving this survey plat 20 years ago.

Since I did not get it until 1991 or so, then it is most unlikely that "My" footprints could be found on it had you received it 20 years ago.

So, if you wish to keep attempting to convince yourself that you got this survey 20 years ago, then have at it.

However, you will have a "lot" of explaining to do if and when I continue to reveal those items which demonstrate "my" signature all over the plat.

P.S. You never have explained the rationale of the line eminating from the TSDB and ending at the approximate Z204/206 stationing.

And Bob may be a "new guy" to this subject matter, but I have no doubts that he too would appreciate an explanation as to exactly why this line appears when no one other than Tom/me is out her on this limb claiming the first shot fired at Z204/206.