Survey: Where to look?

[David G. Healy]

delete triple entry

Edited November 4, 2006 by David G. Healy

[David G. Healy]

double post deleted - dgh

Edited November 4, 2006 by David G. Healy

[David G. Healy]

dgh: yep, Lance Burton would have a tough time duplicating that one, Penn and Teller (a staple in these parts) are of course on-the-record stating that all JFK Conspiracy theory is bullxxxx.... why the hell those idiots were consulted is beyond me...

The primary reasons I follow your posts regarding Mr. West's documents is; a. the Z-film appears doctored in places, b. the FBI/SS immediate surveys of DP put the "final shot" shot further down Elm St. (a huge conflict with what we see in the *current* extent film) much closer to where Altgens position on the infield is/was and c. I have no particular bias regarding LHO's involvement in the assassination. I do however (based on my experience), have a problem with his qualifications regarding "pulling" off shots of this magnitude, and I don't care if he had 15 seconds to accomplish same. Thus my long held position that a additional shooter was located to the rear of the Limo, probably in the DAL-TEX building.

IF, based on Mr. West's plat documents and Tom's excellent summary that the final shot came closer to Altgens camera position (further down Elm St. [on the infield] across from the stairs ascending the knoll, the Zapruder Film as we know it today is a fabrication, simple as that. In my estimation a FINAL shot (closer to Altgens camera position) has been removed [excised] from the original Zapruder-in-camera film, the SECOND shot (currently, we know it as Z-313, the WCR third and final shot) occured directly in front of/across from Zapruder camera position.

The degree of difficulty removing the kill shot, reletively easy -- re-establishing believable film continuity and effective matte painting (as we see today in Z-313 and the headsnap) difficult but professionally possible with 1963/64 film compositing and matte painting technology...

Perhaps before anyone becomes entirely lost, one should get back to the "slight" sleight-of-hand episode of how shot# 3 disappeared.

1. As referenced earlier, the US Secret Service, during the period of December 2, 3, & 4, completed a survey (utilizing Mr. West) and re-enactment of the assassination of JFK.

In completion of this work, the SS had available to them a first generation copy of the Zapruder film, and Mr. West completed his Survey Plat on December 5, 1963.

This survey plat did not utilize or reference frame#'s of the Z-film, and the impact point of the three shots fired was referenced by the Stationing# (footage measurement from a control point) as surveyed in on Elm St.

The result of this survey being:

A. That JFK was struck by the first bullet at a point which can now be clearly defined as Z210 or just prior.*

B. That JFK was struck by the second bullet at a point which can now be clearly defined as Z313.

C. That JFK was struck by the third bullet at a point which can now only be firmly defined as Station# 4+96

(surveyed in as 4+95) which is approximately 30 feet farther down Elm St. than the impact of the Z313 shot to the President's head and is located directly to the front of Mr. James Altgens.

*Since the SS utilized the obvious impact damage of Z313 as their reference, one must assume that they also observed some actions by JFK at the earlier/first shot impact as their reference for this shot.

Time/Life had utilized what can be ascertained as approximately Z204 to Z206 as their point at which the first shot was fired, and although this agrees exactly with the "jiggle analysis"/blurring of the Z-film, the discrepancy between the Time/Life placement and the SS placement is quite obvious.

This is also obvious in the Time/Life placement of the shot to the head of JFK at Z313 as the Time/Life survey has this point placed a few feet prior to the later accurately determined Z313 explosion of the President's head.

The correlation being that it appears that Time/Life was dealing with the exact point at which the shots were fired, and the US Secret Service was dealing with the observable reaction by JFK to impact of the shot.

2. Next, we have the FBI assuming responsibility for the investigation of the assassination, and thereafter the beginning of the misrepresentations.

On February 7, 1964, the FBI conducted their own survey and re-enactment of the assassination, with the results being:

A. The impact point of the third/last/final shot which impacted at 4+96/4+95, down in front of James Altgens, was left exactly as identified and surveyed in by the US Secret Service during their prior work.

B. The impact point of the second shot at Z313 stationing, was moved backwards up Elm St. a distance of 24.5 feet, which although making it appear on the Z-film that JBC was now turned in a position at which a bullet could have penetrated through his right shoulder, missing the scapula, and thereafter traversing down through his chest to his leg, nevertheless ignored/overlooked the fact that this shot impact location had now been "moved" on paperwork to an impact position which was clearly before JFK had passed the first yellow stripe on Elm St.

And, the yellow stripe was an absolutely dead give-away as to where JFK was at the impact of the Z313 shot.

C. The FBI left the first shot impact point, as determined by the US Secret Service, in it's approximate Z210/exact same position.

*It must be assumed that the FBI was fully cognizant of the fact that the only way that a bullet could strike in the edge of the hairline of JFK and thereafter "tunnel" up through the soft flesh of the neck to strike in the EOP region, when fired on a downward angle, was for the President to be leaning well forward with the back of his head in an almost horizontal position.

This, coupled with the fact that the FBI had in their possession the President's coat, which had the small (second) bullet hole located at the edge of the collar, located just to the right of the midline, directly in alignment with the bullet entrance hole at the edge of the hairline on the neck of JFK, fully established a bullet trajectory that absolutely could not be made to match with the Z313 position of JFK's head at Z313.

therefore, it appears that the FBI/JEH took the prudent approach with the intent to make the Z313 shot disappear and utilize the 4+96/altgens location as it absolutely could be made to match forensically; ballistically; and pathologically, with the known evidence.

Therefore, we almost had Z313 disappear!

But, it could not, as there were too many who had seen the evidence (film) as well as too many witnesses on Elm St. that had observed this impact to the head of JFK.

Now, we can move on to the "Eisenberg" slight/sleight-of-hand trick and the disappearing act of the true shot#3.

Hopefully, the dopplegangers will leave things alone long enough to get through this!

3. Next, we have the Eisenberg distances as given to Ronald Simmons of Edgewood Arsenal, which were:

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Mr. SIMMONS. Yes; we did. We placed three targets, which were head and shoulder silhouettes, at distances of 175 feet, 240 feet, and 265 feet, and these distances are slant ranges from the window ledge of a tower which is about 30 feet high. We used three firers in an attempt to obtain hits on all three targets within as short a time interval as possible.

Mr. EISENBERG. Can you state where you derived these distances?

Mr. SIMMONS. These distances were the values given on the survey map which were given to us.

Mr. EISENBERG. Are you sure they were not the values I gave to you myself?

Mr. SIMMONS. I stand corrected. These are values--we were informed that the numbers on the survey map were possibly in error. The distances are very close, however.

Mr. EISENBERG. For the record, the figures which I gave Mr. Simmons are approximations and are not to be taken as the Commission's conclusive determination of what those distances are.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

First off, one truly should question exactly how it is/was that anyone could come up with the distance for the first shot, when the WC informed us that they could not even determine if the first shot missed, etc; etc; etc;.

Of course, we already know the answer, being that the US Secret Service & FBI both had this distance on their survey plats.

Secondly, the distance of 240 feet which was given by Eisenberg to Ronald Simmons, is the "Make Believe" impact location on Elm St. at which the FBI had made Z313 disappear from it's impact point, and magically move back up the street 24.5 feet prior to the Z313 position.

Lastly, and this is where the lies truly created the confusion, the third/last/final shot down at Altgens position on Elm St was, in these measurements, made to completely disappear, or if one will, moved back up the street to the Z313 position which was the 265-feet slant distance.

So now, Ronald Simmons shooters had the following distances to shoot at:

Shot#1------------------------------------------175 feet

Shot#2------------------------------------------240 feet

Shot#3------------------------------------------265 feet

Anyone see the problem???????????????????????????????

After Eisenberg magically moved the third shot back to the actual Z313 position, to insure that we had a shot at this point (had to due to the yellow stripe in the background), now it left only a distance of 25 feet of slant distance between the FBI's magically moved to impact point for shot# 2 and the now final shot#3 at Z313.

Which of course on the ground was in fact less than 25 feet.

Now, at 10mph, the car would have travelled approximately 14.666 feet per second. Therefore, with the reduced distances created by the FBI lie being added to by the Eisenberg lie, it would now mean that the time span between shot#2 and shot#3 as given (in distance) by Melvin Eisenberg to Ronald Simmons, would be approximately 1.7 seconds of elapsed time.

This is where the progression of lies now had the WC in a situation of which they would all have to state another shooter existed, or else come up with an alternative plan to make the TRUE Shot#3/Altgens impact shot disappear.

Obviously, discussions were made (but nothing was ever put into writing) that Shot#2 would just be moved back to around Z234 or so, shortly after JBC came out from behind the sign and could be seen "reacting".

However, the same restrictions of time v. elapsed frames of the Z-film/vehicle speed problems would exist here between Shot#1 and Shot#2 as was created by the moving of the impact points of Shot#2 and Shot#23.

And, since the SS & FBI Survey plats both showed the Altgens impact point, then they absolutely could not be openly revealed to the extent and/or size that anyone could tell it.

And since the Z313 impact point was an "absolute" due to the yellow stripe on the curb of Elm St, then this was and had to stay.

So, now we have a shot impact point on Elm St. which is platted 24.5 feet prior to the Z313 head shot, now having to disappear also, which leaves us with only two shots that we/they/the WC can claim.

Therefore, we have Melvin Eisenberg's drawing of 3/27/64, in which Shot#1 stays the same.

Shot#2 at Z313 becomes the final shot/#3.

And, shot#3, down in front of Altgens is made to disappear from all known record.

http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk...Vol17_0139a.htm

Now, that is truely "MAGIC"!

Hey David! This is far better than any of the "Magic Shows" there in Vegas.

Now you see it, now you don't. And, even when you can see it, (CE585), you still can not see it.

Needless to say, this now created "rapid fire" exercise which was entirely fabricated as a result of completely phony distances, created problems for the shooters.

Just as it would for virtually any qualified shooters.

But since this is quite obviously NOT what LHO/the shooter had to accomplish, I see little to be gained in attempting to duplicate the WC lies.

Especially since I was never so misguided to believe ANY of them anyway.

Never have liked to have to take a "rigged" test!

3. Next, we have the Eisenberg distances as given to Ronald Simmons of Edgewood Arsenal, which were:

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Mr. SIMMONS. Yes; we did. We placed three targets, which were head and shoulder silhouettes, at distances of 175 feet, 240 feet, and 265 feet, and these distances are slant ranges from the window ledge of a tower which is about 30 feet high. We used three firers in an attempt to obtain hits on all three targets within as short a time interval as possible.

Mr. EISENBERG. Can you state where you derived these distances?

Mr. SIMMONS. These distances were the values given on the survey map which were given to us.

Mr. EISENBERG. Are you sure they were not the values I gave to you myself?

Mr. SIMMONS. I stand corrected. These are values--we were informed that the numbers on the survey map were possibly in error. The distances are very close, however.

Mr. EISENBERG. For the record, the figures which I gave Mr. Simmons are approximations and are not to be taken as the Commission's conclusive determination of what those distances are.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

First off, one truly should question exactly how it is/was that anyone could come up with the distance for the first shot, when the WC informed us that they could not even determine if the first shot missed, etc; etc; etc;.

Of course, we already know the answer, being that the US Secret Service & FBI both had this distance on their survey plats.

Secondly, the distance of 240 feet which was given by Eisenberg to Ronald Simmons, is the "Make Believe" impact location on Elm St. at which the FBI had made Z313 disappear from it's impact point, and magically move back up the street 24.5 feet prior to the Z313 position.

Lastly, and this is where the lies truly created the confusion, the third/last/final shot down at Altgens position on Elm St was, in these measurements, made to completely disappear, or if one will, moved back up the street to the Z313 position which was the 265-feet slant distance.

So now, Ronald Simmons shooters had the following distances to shoot at:

Shot#1------------------------------------------175 feet

Shot#2------------------------------------------240 feet

Shot#3------------------------------------------265 feet

Anyone see the problem???????????????????????????????

After Eisenberg magically moved the third shot back to the actual Z313 position, to insure that we had a shot at this point (had to due to the yellow stripe in the background), now it left only a distance of 25 feet of slant distance between the FBI's magically moved to impact point for shot# 2 and the now final shot#3 at Z313.

Which of course on the ground was in fact less than 25 feet.

Now, at 10mph, the car would have travelled approximately 14.666 feet per second. Therefore, with the reduced distances created by the FBI lie being added to by the Eisenberg lie, it would now mean that the time span between shot#2 and shot#3 as given (in distance) by Melvin Eisenberg to Ronald Simmons, would be approximately 1.7 seconds of elapsed time.

This is where the progression of lies now had the WC in a situation of which they would all have to state another shooter existed, or else come up with an alternative plan to make the TRUE Shot#3/Altgens impact shot disappear.

Obviously, discussions were made (but nothing was ever put into writing) that Shot#2 would just be moved back to around Z234 or so, shortly after JBC came out from behind the sign and could be seen "reacting".

However, the same restrictions of time v. elapsed frames of the Z-film/vehicle speed problems would exist here between Shot#1 and Shot#2 as was created by the moving of the impact points of Shot#2 and Shot#23.

And, since the SS & FBI Survey plats both showed the Altgens impact point, then they absolutely could not be openly revealed to the extent and/or size that anyone could tell it.

And since the Z313 impact point was an "absolute" due to the yellow stripe on the curb of Elm St, then this was and had to stay.

So, now we have a shot impact point on Elm St. which is platted 24.5 feet prior to the Z313 head shot, now having to disappear also, which leaves us with only two shots that we/they/the WC can claim.

Therefore, we have Melvin Eisenberg's drawing of 3/27/64, in which Shot#1 stays the same.

Shot#2 at Z313 becomes the final shot/#3.

And, shot#3, down in front of Altgens is made to disappear from all known record.

http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk...Vol17_0139a.htm

Now, that is truely "MAGIC"!

Hey David! This is far better than any of the "Magic Shows" there in Vegas.

Now you see it, now you don't. And, even when you can see it, (CE585), you still can not see it.

Needless to say, this now created "rapid fire" exercise which was entirely fabricated as a result of completely phony distances, created problems for the shooters.

Just as it would for virtually any qualified shooters.

But since this is quite obviously NOT what LHO/the shooter had to accomplish, I see little to be gained in attempting to duplicate the WC lies.

Especially since I was never so misguided to believe ANY of them anyway.

Never have liked to have to take a "rigged" test!

This last post did not even go through last night/this morning and I was under the impression that I would have to do the entire thing again.

It would be my hope that everyone has about caught on to how an entire shot has now been made to completely "disappear", as well as the problems which the FBI/Eisenberg "revisions" have now created in the JFK shooting scenario.

Whereas LHO/the shooter actually had 5.8 to 5.9 seconds from first shot to second shot, the WC has now created a scenario in which the person now has only 5.8 to 5.9 seconds from first shot to last shot, and has to somehow "stuff" in a mid-range shot somewhere.

BIG, BIG difference.

And, in addition to this difference, the WC now has to have "THE SHOT THAT MISSED", as they can not effectively place an impact to JBC at either the point 24.5 feet prior to the Z313 shot or the vicinity of JBC

just coming out from behind the sign.

This now also placed them in the position that they had to effectively blame all injuries created to JFK as well as JBC on the two shots which they deemed to inform us of.

Which effectively meant that CE399, now had to take on it's mythical qualities and create the damage to JBC as it was the only one of the two bullets which we are told of that remained intact.

Personally, the ACTUAL shooting sequence in not that difficult at all. Shot#1 to Shot#2 happens to be quite easy with 5.7 to 5.9 seconds.-----------Most underage deer hunters down here can accomplish this without having benefit of USMC markmanship training.

Thereafter, the "rapid fire" from Shot#2 to Shot#3 was the result of a combination of experience with the weapon, combined with USMC training, combined with the fact that the target was in a more horizontal plane, combined with some luck.

It was, for whatever reason, a good shot!

Now, if one could only figure out a way to come up with approximately 2.3 to 2.4 seconds of elapsed time between Z313 and the point at which JFK came directly in front of Mr. Altgens position, since the Z-film method only gives us approximately 1.9 seconds for this travel time.

But then again, not unlike the WC and their survey work and all of their other lies, I never fully believed that the Z-film was completely authentic either.

Tom

P.S. The true "Magic Bullet" had a severely deformed, flattened and bent nose from it's encounters.

[Thomas H. Purvis]

dgh: yep, Lance Burton would have a tough time duplicating that one, Penn and Teller (a staple in these parts) are of course on-the-record stating that all JFK Conspiracy theory is bullxxxx.... why the hell those idiots were consulted is beyond me...

The primary reasons I follow your posts regarding Mr. West's documents is; a. the Z-film appears doctored in places, b. the FBI/SS immediate surveys of DP put the "final shot" shot further down Elm St. (a huge conflict with what we see in the *current* extent film) much closer to where Altgens position on the infield is/was and c. I have no particular bias regarding LHO's involvement in the assassination. I do however (based on my experience), have a problem with his qualifications regarding "pulling" off shots of this magnitude, and I don't care if he had 15 seconds to accomplish same. Thus my long held position that a additional shooter was located to the rear of the Limo, probably in the DAL-TEX building.

IF, based on Mr. West's plat documents and Tom's excellent summary that the final shot came closer to Altgens camera position (further down Elm St. [on the infield] across from the stairs ascending the knoll, the Zapruder Film as we know it today is a fabrication, simple as that. In my estimation a FINAL shot (closer to Altgens camera position) has been removed [excised] from the original Zapruder-in-camera film, the SECOND shot (currently, we know it as Z-313, the WCR third and final shot) occured directly in front of/across from Zapruder camera position.

The degree of difficulty removing the kill shot, reletively easy -- re-establishing believable film continuity and effective matte painting (as we see today in Z-313 and the headsnap) difficult but professionally possible with 1963/64 film compositing and matte painting technology...

Perhaps before anyone becomes entirely lost, one should get back to the "slight" sleight-of-hand episode of how shot# 3 disappeared.

1. As referenced earlier, the US Secret Service, during the period of December 2, 3, & 4, completed a survey (utilizing Mr. West) and re-enactment of the assassination of JFK.

In completion of this work, the SS had available to them a first generation copy of the Zapruder film, and Mr. West completed his Survey Plat on December 5, 1963.

This survey plat did not utilize or reference frame#'s of the Z-film, and the impact point of the three shots fired was referenced by the Stationing# (footage measurement from a control point) as surveyed in on Elm St.

The result of this survey being:

A. That JFK was struck by the first bullet at a point which can now be clearly defined as Z210 or just prior.*

B. That JFK was struck by the second bullet at a point which can now be clearly defined as Z313.

C. That JFK was struck by the third bullet at a point which can now only be firmly defined as Station# 4+96

(surveyed in as 4+95) which is approximately 30 feet farther down Elm St. than the impact of the Z313 shot to the President's head and is located directly to the front of Mr. James Altgens.

*Since the SS utilized the obvious impact damage of Z313 as their reference, one must assume that they also observed some actions by JFK at the earlier/first shot impact as their reference for this shot.

Time/Life had utilized what can be ascertained as approximately Z204 to Z206 as their point at which the first shot was fired, and although this agrees exactly with the "jiggle analysis"/blurring of the Z-film, the discrepancy between the Time/Life placement and the SS placement is quite obvious.

This is also obvious in the Time/Life placement of the shot to the head of JFK at Z313 as the Time/Life survey has this point placed a few feet prior to the later accurately determined Z313 explosion of the President's head.

The correlation being that it appears that Time/Life was dealing with the exact point at which the shots were fired, and the US Secret Service was dealing with the observable reaction by JFK to impact of the shot.

2. Next, we have the FBI assuming responsibility for the investigation of the assassination, and thereafter the beginning of the misrepresentations.

On February 7, 1964, the FBI conducted their own survey and re-enactment of the assassination, with the results being:

A. The impact point of the third/last/final shot which impacted at 4+96/4+95, down in front of James Altgens, was left exactly as identified and surveyed in by the US Secret Service during their prior work.

B. The impact point of the second shot at Z313 stationing, was moved backwards up Elm St. a distance of 24.5 feet, which although making it appear on the Z-film that JBC was now turned in a position at which a bullet could have penetrated through his right shoulder, missing the scapula, and thereafter traversing down through his chest to his leg, nevertheless ignored/overlooked the fact that this shot impact location had now been "moved" on paperwork to an impact position which was clearly before JFK had passed the first yellow stripe on Elm St.

And, the yellow stripe was an absolutely dead give-away as to where JFK was at the impact of the Z313 shot.

C. The FBI left the first shot impact point, as determined by the US Secret Service, in it's approximate Z210/exact same position.

*It must be assumed that the FBI was fully cognizant of the fact that the only way that a bullet could strike in the edge of the hairline of JFK and thereafter "tunnel" up through the soft flesh of the neck to strike in the EOP region, when fired on a downward angle, was for the President to be leaning well forward with the back of his head in an almost horizontal position.

This, coupled with the fact that the FBI had in their possession the President's coat, which had the small (second) bullet hole located at the edge of the collar, located just to the right of the midline, directly in alignment with the bullet entrance hole at the edge of the hairline on the neck of JFK, fully established a bullet trajectory that absolutely could not be made to match with the Z313 position of JFK's head at Z313.

therefore, it appears that the FBI/JEH took the prudent approach with the intent to make the Z313 shot disappear and utilize the 4+96/altgens location as it absolutely could be made to match forensically; ballistically; and pathologically, with the known evidence.

Therefore, we almost had Z313 disappear!

But, it could not, as there were too many who had seen the evidence (film) as well as too many witnesses on Elm St. that had observed this impact to the head of JFK.

Now, we can move on to the "Eisenberg" slight/sleight-of-hand trick and the disappearing act of the true shot#3.

Hopefully, the dopplegangers will leave things alone long enough to get through this!

3. Next, we have the Eisenberg distances as given to Ronald Simmons of Edgewood Arsenal, which were:

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Mr. SIMMONS. Yes; we did. We placed three targets, which were head and shoulder silhouettes, at distances of 175 feet, 240 feet, and 265 feet, and these distances are slant ranges from the window ledge of a tower which is about 30 feet high. We used three firers in an attempt to obtain hits on all three targets within as short a time interval as possible.

Mr. EISENBERG. Can you state where you derived these distances?

Mr. SIMMONS. These distances were the values given on the survey map which were given to us.

Mr. EISENBERG. Are you sure they were not the values I gave to you myself?

Mr. SIMMONS. I stand corrected. These are values--we were informed that the numbers on the survey map were possibly in error. The distances are very close, however.

Mr. EISENBERG. For the record, the figures which I gave Mr. Simmons are approximations and are not to be taken as the Commission's conclusive determination of what those distances are.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

First off, one truly should question exactly how it is/was that anyone could come up with the distance for the first shot, when the WC informed us that they could not even determine if the first shot missed, etc; etc; etc;.

Of course, we already know the answer, being that the US Secret Service & FBI both had this distance on their survey plats.

Secondly, the distance of 240 feet which was given by Eisenberg to Ronald Simmons, is the "Make Believe" impact location on Elm St. at which the FBI had made Z313 disappear from it's impact point, and magically move back up the street 24.5 feet prior to the Z313 position.

Lastly, and this is where the lies truly created the confusion, the third/last/final shot down at Altgens position on Elm St was, in these measurements, made to completely disappear, or if one will, moved back up the street to the Z313 position which was the 265-feet slant distance.

So now, Ronald Simmons shooters had the following distances to shoot at:

Shot#1------------------------------------------175 feet

Shot#2------------------------------------------240 feet

Shot#3------------------------------------------265 feet

Anyone see the problem???????????????????????????????

After Eisenberg magically moved the third shot back to the actual Z313 position, to insure that we had a shot at this point (had to due to the yellow stripe in the background), now it left only a distance of 25 feet of slant distance between the FBI's magically moved to impact point for shot# 2 and the now final shot#3 at Z313.

Which of course on the ground was in fact less than 25 feet.

Now, at 10mph, the car would have travelled approximately 14.666 feet per second. Therefore, with the reduced distances created by the FBI lie being added to by the Eisenberg lie, it would now mean that the time span between shot#2 and shot#3 as given (in distance) by Melvin Eisenberg to Ronald Simmons, would be approximately 1.7 seconds of elapsed time.

This is where the progression of lies now had the WC in a situation of which they would all have to state another shooter existed, or else come up with an alternative plan to make the TRUE Shot#3/Altgens impact shot disappear.

Obviously, discussions were made (but nothing was ever put into writing) that Shot#2 would just be moved back to around Z234 or so, shortly after JBC came out from behind the sign and could be seen "reacting".

However, the same restrictions of time v. elapsed frames of the Z-film/vehicle speed problems would exist here between Shot#1 and Shot#2 as was created by the moving of the impact points of Shot#2 and Shot#23.

And, since the SS & FBI Survey plats both showed the Altgens impact point, then they absolutely could not be openly revealed to the extent and/or size that anyone could tell it.

And since the Z313 impact point was an "absolute" due to the yellow stripe on the curb of Elm St, then this was and had to stay.

So, now we have a shot impact point on Elm St. which is platted 24.5 feet prior to the Z313 head shot, now having to disappear also, which leaves us with only two shots that we/they/the WC can claim.

Therefore, we have Melvin Eisenberg's drawing of 3/27/64, in which Shot#1 stays the same.

Shot#2 at Z313 becomes the final shot/#3.

And, shot#3, down in front of Altgens is made to disappear from all known record.

http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk...Vol17_0139a.htm

Now, that is truely "MAGIC"!

Hey David! This is far better than any of the "Magic Shows" there in Vegas.

Now you see it, now you don't. And, even when you can see it, (CE585), you still can not see it.

Needless to say, this now created "rapid fire" exercise which was entirely fabricated as a result of completely phony distances, created problems for the shooters.

Just as it would for virtually any qualified shooters.

But since this is quite obviously NOT what LHO/the shooter had to accomplish, I see little to be gained in attempting to duplicate the WC lies.

Especially since I was never so misguided to believe ANY of them anyway.

Never have liked to have to take a "rigged" test!

3. Next, we have the Eisenberg distances as given to Ronald Simmons of Edgewood Arsenal, which were:

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Mr. SIMMONS. Yes; we did. We placed three targets, which were head and shoulder silhouettes, at distances of 175 feet, 240 feet, and 265 feet, and these distances are slant ranges from the window ledge of a tower which is about 30 feet high. We used three firers in an attempt to obtain hits on all three targets within as short a time interval as possible.

Mr. EISENBERG. Can you state where you derived these distances?

Mr. SIMMONS. These distances were the values given on the survey map which were given to us.

Mr. EISENBERG. Are you sure they were not the values I gave to you myself?

Mr. SIMMONS. I stand corrected. These are values--we were informed that the numbers on the survey map were possibly in error. The distances are very close, however.

Mr. EISENBERG. For the record, the figures which I gave Mr. Simmons are approximations and are not to be taken as the Commission's conclusive determination of what those distances are.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

First off, one truly should question exactly how it is/was that anyone could come up with the distance for the first shot, when the WC informed us that they could not even determine if the first shot missed, etc; etc; etc;.

Of course, we already know the answer, being that the US Secret Service & FBI both had this distance on their survey plats.

Secondly, the distance of 240 feet which was given by Eisenberg to Ronald Simmons, is the "Make Believe" impact location on Elm St. at which the FBI had made Z313 disappear from it's impact point, and magically move back up the street 24.5 feet prior to the Z313 position.

Lastly, and this is where the lies truly created the confusion, the third/last/final shot down at Altgens position on Elm St was, in these measurements, made to completely disappear, or if one will, moved back up the street to the Z313 position which was the 265-feet slant distance.

So now, Ronald Simmons shooters had the following distances to shoot at:

Shot#1------------------------------------------175 feet

Shot#2------------------------------------------240 feet

Shot#3------------------------------------------265 feet

Anyone see the problem???????????????????????????????

After Eisenberg magically moved the third shot back to the actual Z313 position, to insure that we had a shot at this point (had to due to the yellow stripe in the background), now it left only a distance of 25 feet of slant distance between the FBI's magically moved to impact point for shot# 2 and the now final shot#3 at Z313.

Which of course on the ground was in fact less than 25 feet.

Now, at 10mph, the car would have travelled approximately 14.666 feet per second. Therefore, with the reduced distances created by the FBI lie being added to by the Eisenberg lie, it would now mean that the time span between shot#2 and shot#3 as given (in distance) by Melvin Eisenberg to Ronald Simmons, would be approximately 1.7 seconds of elapsed time.

This is where the progression of lies now had the WC in a situation of which they would all have to state another shooter existed, or else come up with an alternative plan to make the TRUE Shot#3/Altgens impact shot disappear.

Obviously, discussions were made (but nothing was ever put into writing) that Shot#2 would just be moved back to around Z234 or so, shortly after JBC came out from behind the sign and could be seen "reacting".

However, the same restrictions of time v. elapsed frames of the Z-film/vehicle speed problems would exist here between Shot#1 and Shot#2 as was created by the moving of the impact points of Shot#2 and Shot#23.

And, since the SS & FBI Survey plats both showed the Altgens impact point, then they absolutely could not be openly revealed to the extent and/or size that anyone could tell it.

And since the Z313 impact point was an "absolute" due to the yellow stripe on the curb of Elm St, then this was and had to stay.

So, now we have a shot impact point on Elm St. which is platted 24.5 feet prior to the Z313 head shot, now having to disappear also, which leaves us with only two shots that we/they/the WC can claim.

Therefore, we have Melvin Eisenberg's drawing of 3/27/64, in which Shot#1 stays the same.

Shot#2 at Z313 becomes the final shot/#3.

And, shot#3, down in front of Altgens is made to disappear from all known record.

http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk...Vol17_0139a.htm

Now, that is truely "MAGIC"!

Hey David! This is far better than any of the "Magic Shows" there in Vegas.

Now you see it, now you don't. And, even when you can see it, (CE585), you still can not see it.

Needless to say, this now created "rapid fire" exercise which was entirely fabricated as a result of completely phony distances, created problems for the shooters.

Just as it would for virtually any qualified shooters.

But since this is quite obviously NOT what LHO/the shooter had to accomplish, I see little to be gained in attempting to duplicate the WC lies.

Especially since I was never so misguided to believe ANY of them anyway.

Never have liked to have to take a "rigged" test!

This last post did not even go through last night/this morning and I was under the impression that I would have to do the entire thing again.

It would be my hope that everyone has about caught on to how an entire shot has now been made to completely "disappear", as well as the problems which the FBI/Eisenberg "revisions" have now created in the JFK shooting scenario.

Whereas LHO/the shooter actually had 5.8 to 5.9 seconds from first shot to second shot, the WC has now created a scenario in which the person now has only 5.8 to 5.9 seconds from first shot to last shot, and has to somehow "stuff" in a mid-range shot somewhere.

BIG, BIG difference.

And, in addition to this difference, the WC now has to have "THE SHOT THAT MISSED", as they can not effectively place an impact to JBC at either the point 24.5 feet prior to the Z313 shot or the vicinity of JBC

just coming out from behind the sign.

This now also placed them in the position that they had to effectively blame all injuries created to JFK as well as JBC on the two shots which they deemed to inform us of.

Which effectively meant that CE399, now had to take on it's mythical qualities and create the damage to JBC as it was the only one of the two bullets which we are told of that remained intact.

Personally, the ACTUAL shooting sequence in not that difficult at all. Shot#1 to Shot#2 happens to be quite easy with 5.7 to 5.9 seconds.-----------Most underage deer hunters down here can accomplish this without having benefit of USMC markmanship training.

Thereafter, the "rapid fire" from Shot#2 to Shot#3 was the result of a combination of experience with the weapon, combined with USMC training, combined with the fact that the target was in a more horizontal plane, combined with some luck.

It was, for whatever reason, a good shot!

Now, if one could only figure out a way to come up with approximately 2.3 to 2.4 seconds of elapsed time between Z313 and the point at which JFK came directly in front of Mr. Altgens position, since the Z-film method only gives us approximately 1.9 seconds for this travel time.

But then again, not unlike the WC and their survey work and all of their other lies, I never fully believed that the Z-film was completely authentic either.

Tom

P.S. The true "Magic Bullet" had a severely deformed, flattened and bent nose from it's encounters.

IF, based on Mr. West's plat documents and Tom's excellent summary that the final shot came closer to Altgens camera position

The "summary" is not complete unless one adds in all of those witnesses who so informed us that the shot to the head of JFK (Z313) was in fact the second shot.

The "summary" is not complete unless one adds in all of those witnesses who so informed us that there was a longer (considerably) delay between the timing of the first and second shot, as opposed to the timing delay between the second shot and the third shot.

And, since Mr. West merely surveyed in what the US Secret Service, with their first generation copy of the Z-film informed him of, and this exact same spot/point/position was again repeated by the totally controlled FBI survey and re-enactment of 2/7/64, then we are somewhat left with the great quandary of whom one should believe.

And, since I never believed the WC, and had only partial belief that the FBI would tell the truth, and that the SS were certainly the most honorable of the group.---------------No Quandry here!

a. the Z-film appears doctored in places,

And, if and when one begins to understand the rational and reasoning for such activities, it is much more easier to recognize and identify such items.

The degree of difficulty removing the kill shot, reletively easy -- re-establishing believable film continuity and effective matte painting (as we see today in Z-313 and the headsnap) difficult but professionally possible with 1963/64 film compositing and matte painting technology...

The Z313 head shot effectively "killed" JFK! Due to the manner in which this bullet fragmented and literally ripped through the upper lobe of the brain, it is most unlikely that anyone would have ever survived this shot.

The Altgens shot was merely an added attempt to insure maximum injuries as it is most unlikely that the shooter saw what happened to the head of JFK as he would have been far too involved in rifle recoil as well as bolt operation for the next/last/third/final shot.

And, as wel all know, Clint Hill was fully up onto the back of the Presidential Limo immediately after this shot, thus totally eliminating the potential for the fourth chambered round to be effective.

[Thomas H. Purvis]

Lastly!

From the final survey plat in my possession, it would appear that the WC, up until a given date, was not absolutely certain as to exactly what shooting sequence they were going to present, or at least wanted to insure that they had "alternative" information if necessary.

As most are aware, the WC went to extensive measures in their curcular reasoning attempt to convince us that they could not locate the impact point of the first shot, and that the first shot may have even been "THE SHOT THAT MISSED".

The survey work of Mr. West tells us a different story, and the WC, who had absolute and total control of the JFK assassination Investigation, continued to make their mistakes as well.

Previously, I posted the link to the drawing which Melvin Eisenberg made on 3/27/64, which effectively now had completely eliminated one of the shots fired in the assassination, and nevertheless, identified the impact location of the first shot as well as the newly defined third shot impact point at Z313, with a now completely missing shot.

What the WC, as well as everyone else has also neglected to inform us of is the fact that the WC, through the auspices of the FBI, also had Mr. West draw up a final survey plat in which the impact point of two shots is clearly indicated.

Mr. West did not survey work for creation of this survey plat, and not unlike much of the other work which began with the Time/Life Survey, Mr. West was totally unaware of the exact "why" of many of the actions which he was asked to perform.

Nevertheless, the "revision date" at the bottom of the last survey plat which Mr. West created, is quite indicative of exactly how the WC was telling us lies as we watched one hand (the WC & it's conclusions), while preparing an apparant alternative plan and explanation with the other hand.

I would hope that the similarities are not lost!

http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk...Vol17_0139a.htm

[Thomas H. Purvis]

Lastly!

From the final survey plat in my possession, it would appear that the WC, up until a given date, was not absolutely certain as to exactly what shooting sequence they were going to present, or at least wanted to insure that they had "alternative" information if necessary.

As most are aware, the WC went to extensive measures in their curcular reasoning attempt to convince us that they could not locate the impact point of the first shot, and that the first shot may have even been "THE SHOT THAT MISSED".

The survey work of Mr. West tells us a different story, and the WC, who had absolute and total control of the JFK assassination Investigation, continued to make their mistakes as well.

Previously, I posted the link to the drawing which Melvin Eisenberg made on 3/27/64, which effectively now had completely eliminated one of the shots fired in the assassination, and nevertheless, identified the impact location of the first shot as well as the newly defined third shot impact point at Z313, with a now completely missing shot.

What the WC, as well as everyone else has also neglected to inform us of is the fact that the WC, through the auspices of the FBI, also had Mr. West draw up a final survey plat in which the impact point of two shots is clearly indicated.

Mr. West did not survey work for creation of this survey plat, and not unlike much of the other work which began with the Time/Life Survey, Mr. West was totally unaware of the exact "why" of many of the actions which he was asked to perform.

Nevertheless, the "revision date" at the bottom of the last survey plat which Mr. West created, is quite indicative of exactly how the WC was telling us lies as we watched one hand (the WC & it's conclusions), while preparing an apparant alternative plan and explanation with the other hand.

I would hope that the similarities are not lost!

http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk...Vol17_0139a.htm

And, for those who can not determine the location of shot#2 from the final survey plat of 6/25/64, perhaps the following documents will be of some assistance.

http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk...Vol17_0464b.htm

[Thomas H. Purvis]

David:

Under the assumption that you now recognize that a third shot occurred down in front of Mr. Altgens, then you now have all that is needed to expose the WC.

Due to the now seen 1.9 second delay between the Z313 shot and when JFK is directly 15 feet from James Altgens, one of two conditions must now exist.

A. There were two assassins, as the rifle could not be operated and fired this fast.

B. The Zapruder film has been altered in the deletion of frames of the film, which by the way would have also indicated that the Presidential Limo was travelling faster than it actually was through this 30+ foot distance.

The WC has now fully "boxed" themselves back into the same box that they were in when they began telling these lies to begin with.