An attempt to bring an end to the JFK Forum

[Mark Knight]

I agree that there are a lot of folks on the forum who have a less-than-glowing opinion of Bush. But as Americans--to paraphrase Rumsfeld--we go toward the future with the president we have, not necessarily with the president we wish we had. As in the past, though, no president is immune from criticism--nor should they be. I know there were "Kennedy bashers" in his day as well, even as is evidenced by the "Welcome" ad in the Dallas newspaper of 11/22/1963. And these were right-wingers. So, despite your comments implying such, "right" and "correct" are not ALWAYS synonymous.

[Tim Gratz]

Mark, it is always nice to reach an agreement on something! Remember the old saying, which is a way of being polite, "We agree to disagree"?

[Robert Charles-Dunne]

Robert:

Shanet admitted that he meant to say he had sources in Wisconsin to connect me to Bremer.  And that he made that up.  And that is the clear reading of his post.

In order for me to be a disinformation agent, you would have to prove that I do not believe the factual assertions made by others that I report.  The problem is that, unlike you, I do not disbelieve everything that is in a CIA report.  Then again, neither do you.  There are obviously things in CIA reports with which you would agree.  Your methodology is simply to attack any report of a Castro agent in Dallas because it was reported to the CIA.

Never having seen the reports yourself, you're hardly in a position to know why I "attack" them.  But then, accepting certain cherry-picked items at face value seems to suit your fancy.  Have at it, but don't expect others to be quite so gullible.

There were a number of apparently independent reports of DGI agents in Dallas.

Having never seen a single one of them with your own eyes, by what galling presumption can you make such a statement?  If you have seen one, please cite the specifics and post the contents in their entirety.

Is it possible they were all made up, or reported by people who were mistaken?  Well, anything is possible. 

Forget possible.  Here's what's demonstable: that you haven't a clue about any such reports, but that you accept the word of others that they exist, and that they are persuasive, because that is what you choose to believe, what you insist others should also believe, and what you take as an article of faith without ever having copped eyes on them yourself.  I'm sure juries must have loved your content-free summations.   

But the only fair way to summarize the evidence, I believe, is that IF those reports were true, there is a very high probability of Cuban involvement in the assassination.  I would even go further and state the burden ought to be on the person attempting to attack those reports to demonstrate that the person making the report was unreliable.  As we have discussed, one report came from Miguelito's aunt.  As I recall our discussion, you somehow thought that she was unreliable for some reason BECAUSE she was his aunt.

Cite the actual report at issue, and we'll both have a better idea of how credible it/they are.  That seems too much trouble for you.  Some of us are not quite so gullible.

Tell you what, Robert, I know how we can easily solve this.  I once wrote that many people whose political persuasions are left-of-center seem to have a hard time accepting any theory that there was involvement in the assassination by Communists.  You replied that there was no way I could determine the political allegiances of the members posting here.  I think that reply is absurd. 

I said no such thing.  I said that with the exception of those such as you who self-identify their political leanings, I couldn't tell - nor do I care - which posters fall on which side of the spectrum.  That seems to be a litmus test of some type for you.  Not so for me. 

Let's do a poll of the members (it can even be anonymous).  If the poll shows the membership is overwhelmingly leftist oriented, I want you to join the "Fidel Did It" Club.  If, however, the poll shows that the political division here is close to equal, then I will agree never to make another post pointing toward Fidel.

By your barometer, everyone here will prove to be a screaming Commie.   And there'll only be one lonely patriot.... who lives in Key West, natch.

I don't think you will accept my challenge because you know as well as I do the leftist orientation of this Forum (and I will limit it to active participants in the Kennedy assassination debate).  Frankly, it would surprise me if more than two other posters voted for George Bush in the last election.

You seem to forget the international makeup of this Forum, just as easily as you forget that there's a whole wide world outside your own borders.  Guess what, Tim.  In the country where I reside, the overwhelming majority of the population thinks that George Bush is the single largest threat to the world's stability.  As a nation, we are more frightened of him than Osama, which should cause you some concern, if you care.  That's not communist propaganda; that's a fact that you can easily check with a simple google search. 

Guess what else, Tim.  My country is your country's single largest trading partner, and too often assumed to be your country's suppliciant.  Your country does more business with my province than it does with Japan.  And that is how your presumed President is viewed by your single closest ally.  If you make a fondness for Bush your litmus test, I defy you to show me a single country where his approval rating is higher than the meagre one-in-three that he scores in your own country.  I don't think you will accept that challenge, because it would cause you to question why even your closest neighbours think your nominal leader sets new standards for Presidential venality.  Or worse.    

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Edited August 23, 2005 by Robert Charles-Dunne

[Dawn Meredith]

[quote=Robert Charles-Dunne,Aug 23 2005, 07:19 AM]

Robert:

  Guess what, Tim. In the country where I reside, the overwhelming majority of the population thinks that George Bush is the single largest threat to the world's stability. As a nation, we are more frightened of him than Osama, which should cause you some concern, if you care. That's not communist propaganda; that's a fact that you can easily check with a simple google search.

Great response Robert. I just returned from a visit to "our Country" (I am a US citizen by choice, moved to states at age 18, from Nova Scotia). People there are simply terrified of W. Let me tell you that MANY Americans are as well.

And Tim, how one voted has zero to do with the assassination of JFK. Perhaps some of us aren't big Bush supporters because we so disagree with everything he truly stands for. It has little to do with Democrat or Republican and much to do with POLICY. The Bush policy is primarily for the big oil interests, and for the very rich who support him. Hardly "the people"! :

"The mores and the have mores; you're my base" Geroge W Bush.

Michael Moore did not make up this quote, that was video of THIS president.

Terribly "compassionate" I would say.

Dawn

[John Simkin]

Tony Blair constantly tells us that those who criticise George Bush are anti-American. This is of course a lot of nonsense. However, it is true is that George Bush is seen as the main representative of your country. We are also aware that he has won two elections (although some suspect he has stolen both elections). I am afraid that some people in Europe believe that most Americans are like Tim Gratz. One of the pleasures of this Forum is that it shows that America is full of intelligent and rational people. Tim appears to be in a minority of one. I can only sympathize. It must be terrible having someone like George Bush representing your country. It is bad enough for us having Tony Blair. Although, like Bush, he is corrupt, at least he is not an ignoramus.

[Lee Forman]

It must be terrible having someone like George Bush representing your country. It is bad enough for us having Tony Blair. Although, like Bush, he is corrupt, at least he is not an ignoramus.

I struggle to consider options for the future. The weight of the task of promoting change - especially in fostering the creation of a new political vehicle to more properly represent the people here in the US - some form of multi-Party system, as opposed to voting on black and white issues [no pun intended], or based upon which candidate is the lesser of 2 evils - absolute rubbish. How can one party realistically represent the needs of 300 million US Citizens? And how would one combat the issues surrounding the new voting system which has been implemented here?

And although he has formally announced his intention NOT to run in 2004, there's quite a bit already in the works for Jeb Bush in 2008.

http://www.cafepress.com/progopgear/470123

This would be the most logical selection, given the present environment.

BTW - you should probably consider upgrading your security someday to an IPS system - one that makes use of both static detail as well as algorithms to prevent hacking, DOS attacks, IP spoofing, viruses, etc. Your troubles will most likely only become worse as time goes on. Tipping point has a best-in-class product.

http://searchsecurity.techtarget.com/tip/1...1091012,00.html

- lee

[Robert Howard]

It must be terrible having someone like George Bush representing your country. It is bad enough for us having Tony Blair. Although, like Bush, he is corrupt, at least he is not an ignoramus.

I struggle to consider options for the future. The weight of the task of promoting change - especially in fostering the creation of a new political vehicle to more properly represent the people here in the US - some form of multi-Party system, as opposed to voting on black and white issues [no pun intended], or based upon which candidate is the lesser of 2 evils - absolute rubbish. How can one party realistically represent the needs of 300 million US Citizens? And how would one combat the issues surrounding the new voting system which has been implemented here?

And although he has formally announced his intention NOT to run in 2004, there's quite a bit already in the works for Jeb Bush in 2008.

http://www.cafepress.com/progopgear/470123

This would be the most logical selection, given the present environment.

BTW - you should probably consider upgrading your security someday to an IPS system - one that makes use of both static detail as well as algorithms to prevent hacking, DOS attacks, IP spoofing, viruses, etc. Your troubles will most likely only become worse as time goes on. Tipping point has a best-in-class product.

http://searchsecurity.techtarget.com/tip/1...1091012,00.html

- lee

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I would like to add some thoughts given the direction this post has taken. I am 46 years old and like a million other people throughout history, I cannot believe what we all are living through. I believe one of the problems we have in America is one of education and the negative effect the media has on our culture. I live in Texas, Dallas as a matter of fact, so I get to see first hand the bulwark of Republican sentiment in daily life. It make mw want to get sick. We have a President who continue's to stumble through Iraq, a "phony war" if I ever saw one. He and his minions uses the terrorism issue to basically keep everybody afraid while the raping of civil liberties continues at breakneck speed. I personally do not feel we "really live in a democracy," when the Commander-In-Chief can simply issue a Presidential Executive Order to do basically whatever "he" wants to (including going to war) and everyone yawns asw if watching re-runs of American Idol. I hate to say it but I feel like the London papers had it right after the last election i.e. the headline (How can 280 million people be so stupid?). George H.W. Bush has the distinction of being the only President (as of now, anyway) that has the records of his administration hidden away where they are not perusable even through the F.O.I.A. which I hear some Bush administration officials would like to roll that back as well. You might be surprised to know that I am a traditional conservative, at least, in theory. Nowadays nothing ever surprises me about the depths of lunacy our country has plunged to. I am sorry but after reading John's thoughts on this post I couldn't agree more. I also feel there is a "area" somewhere in our government that has been in the process of destroying the Democratic Party ever since 1963. Oligarchy seems to be the wave of the future in the "land of the free."

[Lee Forman]

I would like to add some thoughts given the direction this post has taken. I am 46 years old and like a million other people throughout history, I cannot believe what we all are living through. I believe one of the problems we have in America is one of education and the negative effect the media has on our culture. I live in Texas, Dallas as a matter of fact, so I get to see first hand the bulwark of Republican sentiment in daily life. It make mw want to get sick. We have a President who continue's to stumble through Iraq, a "phony war" if I ever saw one. He and his minions uses the terrorism issue to basically keep everybody afraid while the raping of civil liberties continues at breakneck speed. I personally do not feel we "really live in a democracy," when the Commander-In-Chief can simply issue a Presidential Executive Order to do basically whatever "he" wants to (including going to war) and everyone yawns asw if watching re-runs of American Idol. I hate to say it but I feel like the London papers had it right after the last election i.e. the headline (How can 280 million people be so stupid?). George H.W. Bush has the distinction of being the only President (as of now, anyway) that has the records of his administration hidden away where they are not perusable even through the F.O.I.A. which I hear some Bush administration officials would like to roll that back as well. You might be surprised to know that I am a traditional conservative, at least, in theory. Nowadays nothing ever surprises me about the depths of lunacy our country has plunged to. I am sorry but after reading John's thoughts on this post I couldn't agree more. I also feel there is a "area" somewhere in our government that has been in the process of destroying the Democratic Party ever since 1963. Oligarchy seems to be the wave of the future in the "land of the free."

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hear hear!

Well spoken.

http://www.strike-the-root.com/4/hambidge/hambidge2.html

- lee

[John Simkin]

I would like to add some thoughts given the direction this post has taken. I am 46 years old and like a million other people throughout history, I cannot believe what we all are living through. I believe one of the problems we have in America is one of education and the negative effect the media has on our culture. I live in Texas, Dallas as a matter of fact, so I get to see first hand the bulwark of Republican sentiment in daily life. It make mw want to get sick. We have a President who continue's to stumble through Iraq, a "phony war" if I ever saw one. He and his minions uses the terrorism issue to basically keep everybody afraid while the raping of civil liberties continues at breakneck speed. I personally do not feel we "really live in a democracy," when the Commander-In-Chief can simply issue a Presidential Executive Order to do basically whatever "he" wants to (including going to war) and everyone yawns asw if watching re-runs of American Idol. I hate to say it but I feel like the London papers had it right after the last election i.e. the headline (How can 280 million people be so stupid?). George H.W. Bush has the distinction of being the only President (as of now, anyway) that has the records of his administration hidden away where they are not perusable even through the F.O.I.A. which I hear some Bush administration officials would like to roll that back as well. You might be surprised to know that I am a traditional conservative, at least, in theory. Nowadays nothing ever surprises me about the depths of lunacy our country has plunged to. I am sorry but after reading John's thoughts on this post I couldn't agree more. I also feel there is a "area" somewhere in our government that has been in the process of destroying the Democratic Party ever since 1963. Oligarchy seems to be the wave of the future in the "land of the free."

Great posting. Any chance of posting these comments on these two threads:

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=243

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=4347

This is for the benefit of a educational project I am involved in on citizenship.

[Terry Mauro]

Tony Blair constantly tells us that those who criticise George Bush are anti-American. This is of course a lot of nonsense. However, it is true is that George Bush is seen as the main representative of your country. We are also aware that he has won two elections (although some suspect he has stolen both elections). I am afraid that some people in Europe believe that most Americans are like Tim Gratz. One of the pleasures of this Forum is that it shows that America is full of intelligent and rational people. Tim appears to be in a minority of one. I can only sympathize. It must be terrible having someone like George Bush representing your country. It is bad enough for us having Tony Blair. Although, like Bush, he is corrupt, at least he is not an ignoramus.

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It must be terrible having someone like George Bush representing your country. It is bad enough for us having Tony Blair. Although, like Bush, he is corrupt, at least he is not an ignoramus.

So terrible, in fact, that there are some of us seriously considering leaving the place.