Shots from inside the presidential limo

[Paul Rigby]

It's a full life being an advocate of an in-car shooting, what with locating our mandatory turquoise track-suits, coming to terms with our divinity, fighting the good fight against artfully disguised elite lizards etc.

Worst of all, we have to cope with the shame of having read the testimony of some of the closest and/or best-placed eyewitnesses - and taken it seriously! No wonder we struggle for credibility.

Ah, well, such is life, and I have a UFO to catch - straight to the newsagents, please, Alien Cooper...

1.Bobby Hargis (Police motorcycle outrider, left rear of limousine):

Mr. Stern: Do you recall your impression at the time regarding the shots?

Hargis: “Well, at the time it sounded like the shots were right next to me,” 6WCH294.

2. Austin Miller (railroad worker, on triple overpass):

Mr. Belin: “Where did the shots sound like they came from?”

Miller: “Well, the way it sounded like, it came from the, I would say right there in the car,” 6WCH225.

3. Charles Brehm (carpet salesman, south curb of Elm St.): “in front of or beside” the President. Source: Dallas Times Herald, November 22, 1963, cited by Joachim Joesten. Oswald: Assassin or Fall Guy? (London: Merlin Press, 1964), p.176.

4. Officer E. L. Boone (policeman, corner of Main and Houston Streets):" I heard three shots coming from the vicinity of where the President's car was,” 19WCH508.

5. Hugh Betzner, Jr. told the Dallas County Sheriffs Office that he “saw what looked like a fire-cracker going off in the President's car and recall seeing what looked like a nickel revolver in someone's hand in or somewhere immediately around the President's car," 19WCH467.

6. Jack Franzen: “He said he heard the sound of an explosion which appeared to him to come from the President's car and ...small fragments flying inside the vehicle and immediately assumed someone had tossed a firecracker inside the automobile,” 22WCH840.

7. Mrs. Jack Franzen: “Shortly after the President’s automobile passed by…she heard a noise which sounded as if someone had thrown a firecracker into the President’s automobile…at approximately the same time she noticed dust or small pieces of debris flying from the President’s automobile,” 24WCH525.

7. Clint Hill (on the second shot, the fatal one to the head): “It was as though someone was shooting a revolver into a hard object," 2WCH144.

8. James Altgens: “The last shot sounded like it came from the left side of the car, if it was close range because, if it were a pistol it would have to be fired at close range for any degree of accuracy," 7WCH518.

[Paul Rigby]

No weapons were seen by anyone...

Not sure that's true, Peter...

5. Hugh Betzner, Jr. told the Dallas County Sheriffs Office that he "saw what looked like a fire-cracker going off in the President's car and recall seeing what looked like a nickel revolver in someone's hand in or somewhere immediately around the President's car," 19WCH467.

And as for this objection...

...and don't ya think Jackie must might have mentioned it...

If you've seen Jackie's full testimony, you're a very privileged soul. Care to share its location(s)?

- or Mrs C or even JC.....

JC thought so much of the SS he wouldn't let it near him in 1980. Actions speak louder than words. As for members of the US elite engaging in self-censorship, that's agreeably easy to demonstrate.

...or photo would have seen such a weapon?

The film record's a rank fake, with one important exception.

Your right you have a long row to hoe with that one......

There's a spaceship at my disposal, don't you know, so distance is no object. And after visiting Planet Knoll (north & south poles), I can confirm there's not a sign of intelligent life...

[Paul Rigby]

You still have Owlsey acid available in the UK there?

I keep a jar handy next to the computer. You never know when it might prove useful.

Seriously, while the photo record has been tampered with some, there are only slight variations that can be made..

Let me see. These are "slight variations": A sharp left veer to the south curb of Elm; a stop; shooting; SS men swarming on the presidential limo? All this - and more - from the eyewitness testimony, but mysteriously absent from the films. "Slight variations"?

...and I think you are chasing hallucinations of your own making.

I "hallucinated" the quotations above? Really? Me and the peeps who compiled both the Report and the Hearings volumes? The FBI guys who took down the statements?

The weapons the SS used were Greer's right foot and Kellerman's inaction et al.

Which of course explains the FBI's decision to inverview both men in the White House on 27 November and, as Lifton long ago noted, set down a physical description of Greer. But not, admittedly, his right foot.

More hallucinations, I suspose:

S.M. Holland: “After the first shot the secret service man raised up in the seat with a machine gun and then dropped back down in the seat. And they immediately sped off,” 19WCH480.

George Davis: “[He] saw guns in the hands of the secret service agents with President Kennedy, saw President Kennedy slumped forward, and the police motorcycle escort manouever swiftly about the area,” 22WCH837.

Jean Hill: “There was scrambling around in the front seat…Secret service agents shooting back…I just thought, Oh, goodness, the secret service is shooting back,” 6WCH208-212.

[Paul Rigby]

5. Hugh Betzner, Jr. told the Dallas County Sheriffs Office that he “saw what looked like a fire-cracker going off in the President's car and recall seeing what looked like a nickel revolver in someone's hand in or somewhere immediately around the President's car," 19WCH467.

8. James Altgens: “The last shot sounded like it came from the left side of the car, if it was close range because, if it were a pistol it would have to be fired at close range for any degree of accuracy," 7WCH518.

In other threads on this forum, I've come across claims that Greer et al were little more than village idiots unburdened by a day's training. Nothing could be further from the truth, as common sense would suggest.

Here's a useful footnote from chapter 4, The Filmed Assassination, of Fred Newcomb & Perry Adams’ Murder From Within (Santa Barbara: Probe, 1974):

“…the Secret Service agent…must be able to hit the target under any and all conditions…”

C.B. Colby. Secret Service: History, Duties and Equipment (Putnam Pub Group, 1966), p. 20.

According to Merriman Smith, “All [agents on the White House Detail of the Secret Service] are crack shots with either hand. Their pistol marksmanship is tested on one of the toughest ranges in the country. The bull’s-eye of their target is about half the size of the one ordinarily used on police and Army ranges. They must qualify with an unusually high score every thirty days, and if any one of them – or any of the White House police, which falls under Secret Service jurisdiction – falls below a certain marksmanship standard, they are transferred. Agents must also qualify periodically firing from moving vehicles. This accounts for the requirement to shoot well with either hand. A right-handed agent might be clinging to a speeding car with that hand and have to shoot with the left.”

Timothy G. Smith (ed.), Merriman Smith's Book of Presidents. A White House Memoir. ( NY: Norton, 1972), p. 226.

[Bill Miller]

No weapons were seen by anyone and don't ya think Jackie must might have mentioned it - or Mrs C or even JC.....or some one witness or photo would have seen such a weapon? Your right you have a long row to hoe with that one......

Peter, maybe Paul has Jackie on his list of suspects considering someone said the shot sounded like it came from right next to the President.

Bill

[Bill Miller]

In other threads on this forum, I've come across claims that Greer et al were little more than village idiots unburdened by a day's training. Nothing could be further from the truth, as common sense would suggest.

It seems that if common sense was being applied to this topic, then it would not have been started in the first place. And if one doesn't agree, then at least not mention Brehm as a source for knowing where the shots came from because Charles was clapping right through to Altgens #6 photo and beyond. One might check the Nix, Bronson, Muchmore, and Zapruder films to see where Greer's left hand was at the time of the fatal head shot to JFK. But I have heard wilder accusations. Someone once said that Jackie probably feared it was an inside job so she just kept quiet about Greer killing husband. Can you imagine that! One would think that Jackie would have gone ape had she seen such a deed carried out by Greer or anyone inside the limo.

Bill Miller

Edited August 27, 2007 by Bill Miller

[Tim Gratz]

Bill wrote:

" Someone once said that Jackie probably feared it was an inside job so she just kept quiet about Greer killer husband. Can you imagine that! One would think that Jackie would have gone ape had she seen such a deed carried out by Greer or anyone inside the limo."

Yeah, she might have strangled him with her bare hands.

But I think you missed Paul's drift. He wrote:

If you've seen Jackie's full testimony, you're a very privileged soul. Care to share its location(s)?

Presumably he is implying that Jackie testified in closed session that she saw Greer shoot her husband but apparently everybody including Jackie decided to give him a free ride.

And he also implies that because JC in 1980 did not want SS protection that must have also been because he saw Greer shoot JFK.

Come on, now, people, this is out there where the buses don't run!

Edited August 27, 2007 by Tim Gratz

[Bill Miller]

But I think you missed Paul's drift. He wrote:

If you've seen Jackie's full testimony, you're a very privileged soul. Care to share its location(s)?

Presumably he is implying that Jackie testified in closed session that she saw Greer shoot her husband but apparently everybody including Jackie decided to give him a free ride.

And he also implies that because JC in 1980 did not want SS protection that must have also been because he saw Greer shoot JFK.

I don't understand Paul's mindset much of the time. I cannot tell if he really believes half of what he writes or if he is trying to make fools out of CT's in general by making ridiculous statements.

Bill

[Tim Gratz]

Bill, I totally agree with you. Some of the posts here are so ridiculous one wonders if they are "plants" to bring discredit to those who are serious about solving the assassination. That the conspirators would rely on someone in plain sight of hundreds of witnesses (many with cameras) "finishing" the job has to be one of the most bizarre theories ever advanced!

Of course Greer not only did not shoot him he had nothing to do with the assassination.

I would note this post from Bill Cheslock, vintage 2005:

In the aftermath of the assassination, many Secret Service agents who were present in Fort Worth and/or Dallas were obligated to write depositions as to where and what they were doing on the night of November 21 and the early morning hours of November 22, 1963. One agent was not asked to write about his activities during this time. Where was Bill Greer, the driver of the presidential limousine the night of November 21st and the early morning hours of November 22, 1963?

In CE 1020, I found depositions which were written by the following agents who were in Fort Worth and/or Dallas: Arthur Godfrey, Roy Kellerman, Stewart Stout, Rufus Youngblood, Glen Bennett, Andrew Berger, Gerald Blaine, Paul Burns, Clint Hill, Richard Johnsen, Paul Landis, Donald Lawton, Ernest Olson, Gerald O'Rourke, John Ready, and Emory Roberts.

I find it interesting that investigators would want to know what agents Johnsen and Stout were doing during the time in question, when their posts were situated in the Trade Mart, a location President Kennedy never arrived at. Yet, investigators seemed to have no interest in Agent Greer's activities during the time in question, even though he had one of the most important jobs during the assassination........he was driving the the limousine that was ambushed in Dealey Plaza.

I am not sure if the post makes much sense, however. First, one does not write a "deposition". A deposition is a Q & A session in which the witness is sworn and gives testimony that is recorded by stenography and sometimes is also videotaped. And of course Greer did give a deposition before the Warren Commission.

Edited August 27, 2007 by Tim Gratz

[Paul Rigby]

It seems that if common sense was being applied to this topic, then it would not have been started in the first place.

Bill's familiar message: Don't listen to the eyewitnesses, they were there, listen to Miller - I wasn't!

Note, no claim that the eyewitnesses didn't offer the claims I've quoted, just a blank recourse to

...the Nix, Bronson, Muchmore, and Zapruder...

...a yes, a lot of fake films, with no proper provenances, or chains of possession, and entirely inconsistent accounts of their early durations and contents, not least from their alleged takers. To state the obvious - this isn't evidence, but its negation.

Your position is "common sense"? Come, come, Bill, I fear you flatter yourself.

One would think that Jackie would have gone ape had she seen such a deed carried out by Greer or anyone inside the limo.

She was in just a marvellous position to launch a counter-attack: The guys who had just blown her husband's brains out were guarding her children; she was armed with very sharp bits of his skull; and she was utterly unshocked by what had just occurred. Yup, in a prime state personally to roll back the coup.

Edited August 27, 2007 by Paul Rigby

[Paul Rigby]

I am not sure if the post makes much sense...

They never do, Tim, but, hell, you've never let it deter you in the past, so why stop now!

[Tim Gratz]

Can't you even read, Rigby? I said I was not sure that Cheslock's post made sense since Greer did testify before the WC. You either cannot read or you deliberately twisted what I said!

Regarding your post to Bill: Yeah, you are right, there were eyewitnesses who said that Greer shot JFK! It's just that none of the forty or fifty authors who have studied the case and written books (with varying degrees of scholarship ) all missed what those witnesses said! How clever of you to have found them after 44 years!

And your response re Jackie's reaction is absurd. She might not have been able to strangle Greer with all that was happening in the limousine in those tragic minutes, but why wouldn't she immediately report what she had witnessed to the Dallas cops and had Greer arrested once JFK had been pronounced dead? Oh, I know: the entire Dallas police department was also in on it!

But you also seem to be saying that the Secret Service agents guarding her children were also in on the plot and Jackie knew that and hence was afraid to report who had blown her husband's brains out. Well, guess again, from my recollection (I could be wrong) there were no Secret Service agents guarding her children. And even if there were Secret Service agents with her children, why would they be in on the plot?

And all these Secret Service agents were conspirators because--a) they all hated JFK enough to kill him; they had each been promised megabucks for their participation; or c) their own families had been threatened? What is your reasoning?

Let's assume there were Secret Service agents guarding the Kennedy children. So you suggest that EACH of them (assuming there were two of them) were prepared to KILL Caroline and Jack Jr (three years old at the time)to further the conspiracy? Heck, I even think hardened Mafia killers would hesitate before killing defenseless children!

And thank God MOST people would hesitate before calling someone a murderer with no evidence to support it. Please tell me if you have given a SINGLE thought to what hurt your posts might be causing the children of Mr. Greer? I doubt it!

Edited August 27, 2007 by Tim Gratz

[Tim Gratz]

In "JFK" Sen Russell Long remarks to Jim Garrison, "If I was running the assassination I'd locate the top 100 riflemen (or snipers?) in the world and find out which ones were in Dallas."

That's Sen. Long's theory: that the "big fish" imported the best professional practiced killers to do the job. Makes sense to me.

Paul's theory is that the conspirators' back-up plan in case the shooter from the rear missed was to have the driver haul out a revolver and shoot through the Connallys at JFK's head. Greer may have agreed to the foul deed out of hatred for JFK, for money, or due to threats to his family. But the conspirators are going to hope that no one sees or photographs Greer and they also must a' been praying he didn't get "cold feet" when the time came. I mean most people like Greer would probably be scared to death--after all, it's not a run-of-the-mill murder, he's killing the leader of the free world!

Personally I think Sen. Long's scenario makes a tad more sense than Paul's. If I needed brain surgery, I'd look for a neurosurgeon who had at least operated on a few brains previous to mine. And I guess if I wanted to kill a president (not that I ever would but just for purposes of argument) I think I'd go for a guy who had at least a few murders under his belt!

Edited August 27, 2007 by Tim Gratz

[Mark Vernon]

1. Since Jackie was attending JFK at the time of the headshot, she could not possibly have seen it happen.

2. There is no muzzle flash from Greer's "gun", unless you have that, he can't be a shooter....the film is much too grainy and out of focus to conclude he shot JFK.

3. JFK's head is shot from the opposite side of the driver, and moves back and to the left...I do not think this would be consistent with a shot from the driver.

4. Many experts believe the headshot was from a high powered rifle, not a revolver. I should list some references with this but its late and im tired.

[Paul Rigby]

In "JFK" Sen Russell Long remarks to Jim Garrison, "If I was running the assassination I'd locate the top 100 riflemen (or snipers?) in the world and find out which ones were in Dallas."

That's Sen. Long's theory: that the "big fish" imported the best professional practiced killers to do the job. Makes sense to me.

But not to me, Tim, nor to any objective standard of logic. You invite us to believe it was easier to shoot Kennedy from distance with a rifle than from close-up with a handgun.

Er, why? It is not self-evident. Quite the contrary. See my thread on special forces typology: Direct-Positive is always to be preferred.

Then there is the small matter of history and precedent in US presidential assassinations: Handguns, from close range.

Paul's theory is that the conspirators' back-up plan in case the shooter from the rear missed was to have the driver haul out a revolver and shoot through the Connallys at JFK's head.

Sorry, Tim, but no, that is not, and never has been, my theory. I follow Newcomb & Adams as to the origin of the first shot from the rear:

[A gap of about two-car lengths began to grow between the President's follow-up car and the Vice-President's car until it spanned nearly half a block. And, by now, the President's seat was elevated almost a foot.

Just before a freeway sign, the driver began to slow down the presidential limousine.

Suddenly, a shot came from the top of Elm St., now a half block in back of the President. A Secret Service agent in the Vice-President's follow-up car had raised his left hand out of the partly open left, rear window. A revolver was fired skyward.

The crowd's attention was distracted from the presidential limousine by the sudden explosion.

As if in response to this shot in front of the depository, a Secret Service agent in the front of the presidential limousine fired his revolver directly at the President, striking him in the throat. A wind swept the gunsmoke and its distinctive odor back up the street.

Chapter 3, Execution, Murder From Within (Santa Barbara: Probe, 1974).

A challenge, then, to all the many adept film & picture afficionados, Bill Miller included - let's see the best enlargement obtainable of the SS hand in question. If my belief is erroneous, show it for all to see.

Greer may have agreed to the foul deed out of hatred for JFK, for money, or due to threats to his family.

You forgot intense religious bigotry, the most serious, and attested, runner of them all.

But the conspirators are going to hope that no one sees or photographs Greer and they also must a' been praying he didn't get "cold feet" when the time came. I mean most people like Greer would probably be scared to death--after all, it's not a run-of-the-mill murder, he's killing the leader of the free world!

In the eyes of the US establishment, Kennedy was a Catholic upstart and parvenu with profoundly heretical notions on the central issues of the time - peace, war, and profit.

If I needed brain surgery, I'd look for a neurosurgeon who had at least operated on a few brains previous to mine. And I guess if I wanted to kill a president (not that I ever would but just for purposes of argument) I think I'd go for a guy who had at least a few murders under his belt!

Our knowledge of Greer's career is scant. If you have a full resume, please produce it.