Montgomery tells us whats in the bag

[David Josephs]

I've been in a conversation with GMack about the paper bag and one of the points we've all been concerned with is how does the bag stand up all on it's own in this photo? What, if anything, would a DPD put INSIDE A PIECE OF EVIDENCE that was supposed to have carried another critical piece of evidence without thinking about contaminating any evidence removed from the inside of the bag.... what if there is another rifle in there?

This photo gives a much different look at the bag as well... much thinner than in other photos.....

I had also asked about Sawyer's oral history if there was one... sadly there wasn't

So Gary did me the wonderful favor of digging up the applicable piece of Montgomery's oral history.

Obviously its years and years later yet his memory is not too bad....

Gary wrote:

David,

The Museum never got an oral history from Sawyer, unfortunately, but here’s what L.D. Montgomery said on 11-25-2002. Please note that his memory of the event was very hazy and I’m not at all confident he was accurate:

L.D.: It must just have been a little… it seems like that paper, seems like it was a little stiff paper. I’m trying to think and trying to remember. Was there anything in it?

Gary: That was my next question.

L.D.: That’s what I was thinking. Was there a little piece of that white Venetian blind that was in there? That might’ve been what was holding it up. Because you know, he told ‘em that was a Venetian blind, but he had the rifle in there. But he may have had a little piece of that… you know, a long piece of that Venetian blind in there. That’s what I was thinking. Maybe that’s what it was that was in there, and that’s why it held that up.

Gary: You don’t remember looking inside?

L.D.: (nodding) Oh yeah, I remember looking inside. That’s why I was thinking. I was thinking that I remembered now that there was a piece of that in there. Uh-huh.

Interesting how he asks if anything is in it before Gary gets to.... and to think from that photo the bag is just standing up by itself.

But then to discuss a Venetian blind piece (staying with the company line only a little jumbled after all these years or a TRUE MEMORY?) and that he did indeed look inside and did see a piece of a blind that was long enough to hold the entire bag up.

In our discussion I felt that finding a bag with window covering material in it, at the TSBD, on the day of the assassination would go a long way in proving Oswald's original story.... or at least make it very suspect that either multiple bags were found/created. If there was anything in that bag, it surely was not entered into evidence.

So, does it matter that the bag he is photographed with has something other than the rifle that was supposedly in it, in it?

And how/where was that piece when the bag was found, folded into an 8"x24" rectangle and lying flat on the floor by the sniper's nest?

And finally, if that piece is long enough to hold the entire 42" plus bag upright... how does this become a 2-2.5' bag in frazier's back seat?

Thanks Gary and thanks to Montgomery for leaving such an interesting statement

DJ

[Pat Speer]

I've been in a conversation with GMack about the paper bag and one of the points we've all been concerned with is how does the bag stand up all on it's own in this photo? What, if anything, would a DPD put INSIDE A PIECE OF EVIDENCE that was supposed to have carried another critical piece of evidence without thinking about contaminating any evidence removed from the inside of the bag.... what if there is another rifle in there?

This photo gives a much different look at the bag as well... much thinner than in other photos.....

I had also asked about Sawyer's oral history if there was one... sadly there wasn't

So Gary did me the wonderful favor of digging up the applicable piece of Montgomery's oral history.

Obviously its years and years later yet his memory is not too bad....

Gary wrote:

David,

The Museum never got an oral history from Sawyer, unfortunately, but here’s what L.D. Montgomery said on 11-25-2002. Please note that his memory of the event was very hazy and I’m not at all confident he was accurate:

L.D.: It must just have been a little… it seems like that paper, seems like it was a little stiff paper. I’m trying to think and trying to remember. Was there anything in it?

Gary: That was my next question.

L.D.: That’s what I was thinking. Was there a little piece of that white Venetian blind that was in there? That might’ve been what was holding it up. Because you know, he told ‘em that was a Venetian blind, but he had the rifle in there. But he may have had a little piece of that… you know, a long piece of that Venetian blind in there. That’s what I was thinking. Maybe that’s what it was that was in there, and that’s why it held that up.

Gary: You don’t remember looking inside?

L.D.: (nodding) Oh yeah, I remember looking inside. That’s why I was thinking. I was thinking that I remembered now that there was a piece of that in there. Uh-huh.

Interesting how he asks if anything is in it before Gary gets to.... and to think from that photo the bag is just standing up by itself.

But then to discuss a Venetian blind piece (staying with the company line only a little jumbled after all these years or a TRUE MEMORY?) and that he did indeed look inside and did see a piece of a blind that was long enough to hold the entire bag up.

In our discussion I felt that finding a bag with window covering material in it, at the TSBD, on the day of the assassination would go a long way in proving Oswald's original story.... or at least make it very suspect that either multiple bags were found/created. If there was anything in that bag, it surely was not entered into evidence.

So, does it matter that the bag he is photographed with has something other than the rifle that was supposedly in it, in it?

And how/where was that piece when the bag was found, folded into an 8"x24" rectangle and lying flat on the floor by the sniper's nest?

And finally, if that piece is long enough to hold the entire 42" plus bag upright... how does this become a 2-2.5' bag in frazier's back seat?

Thanks Gary and thanks to Montgomery for leaving such an interesting statement

DJ

Thanks, David. The Sixth Floor oral Histories are an untapped resource, IMO. I purchased both of Lt. Day's and found that in his final oral history he admitted that he wasn't even there when the bag was "found." I've also seen Frazier's, where he claimed to see Oswald after the shooting walking down Houston to Elm, as if he'd just left the BACK of the building. Obviously, people's memories slip over time, but it's still useful to know just what those memories are.

In Montgomery's case, he told Larry Sneed that the bag was folded up behind a box when he found it. This doesn't fit with there being a venetian blind in the bag.

Intriguingly, however, I was just reading through The Dangerous Assassins, a book published in Jan. 64, with a chapter on the assassination. It claims that Oswald was confronted by a police officer when he arrived at work with a long package, and was only allowed entrance after explaining to the officer that the package held venetian blinds, and this was confirmed by a co-worker.

Crazy, I know. But this suggests to me that the "venetian blinds" story was something that was floating around Texas in late 63 and early 64. Perhaps, then, some source in the department was simply mixed-up, and had confused "curtain rods" for "venetian blinds," and had talked about this to the point where many had come to believe it.

[David Josephs]

Thanks Pat...

very interesting about that Dangerous Assassins quote... any chance you could scan and post the page(s) with that discussion? I am sure it will be very difficult to find a copy of the book....

and what are your thoughts about the difference in appearance from the posted image above to this one? It's as if whatever was in the bag in the above image was pushed even farther in for this photo.... yes his hand doesn't seem that much farther up into the bag.... the top 1/4 has definitely been pushed up between these two shots.

I have to assume no rods or blinds were ever found, at least not to my knowledge.

So how does a 24" folded bag both in frazier's back seat hold a 42" blind or curtain rod... or a rifle of the same size with a number of other rifle parts and pieces?

[Jack White]

Does anyone believe there was a venetian blind in the sack?

I mean since when did Venetian blinds come one at a time?

LD is trying his best to toe the company line.

Nice work though.

As I said more than once, this sack looks more and more like it can be crucial to unraveling the case against LHO. As if it needed to unravel anymore. But this is the kind of thing you can bring before a grand jury.

We all owe a good deal of thanks to Pat Speer and Ian Griggs for making it visible. (I would add Jack white, but I never saw his presenntation on this.)

I encourage everyone to visit the excellent website of Jerry McLeer (who used some of my research) for the best studies of the gun, bag, etc.

Read all about the bag at: http://jfkresearch.freehomepage.com/papersac.htm'>http://jfkresearch.freehomepage.com/papersac.htm

Read everything else which is linked to the home page: http://jfkresearch.freehomepage.com/

These pages will answer many of your questions.

Jack

[Todd W. Vaughan]

That was good Jack, thanks.

All,

The photos show that Lt. Johnson has the Dr. pepper bottle inverted and has a pen or pencil (or something similar) inside it holding it up.

Lt. Montgomery quite possibly has something similar (a length of wood, perhaps) inside the bag. It is known that a piece of window trim was removed from the window by the DPD on the afternoon of 22 November 1963 to be checked for fingerprints.

Todd

Edited December 14, 2010 by Todd W. Vaughan

[Pat Speer]

That was good Jack, thanks.

All,

The photos show that Lt. Johnson has the Dr. pepper bottle inverted and has a pen or pencil (or something similar) inside it holding it up.

Lt. Montgomery quite possibly has something similar (a length of wood, perhaps) inside the bag. It is known that a piece of window trim was removed from the window by the DPD on the afternoon of 22 November 1963 to be checked for fingerprints.

Todd

I've often thought the same thing, Todd. But there's something weird about the trim, too. It isn't mentioned on the form on which Montgomery and Johnson submitted the bag and bottle. They supposedly brought it in to check for fingerprints, but then supposedly never got around to it, and only sent it in to the FBI as an afterthought.

Fingerprint manuals say windows and window trim are the first places one should look for fingerprints, so what's the Dealey-O?

I've also tried to spot from where on the window this trim was removed. Are you aware of any photos that show where it was removed?

Thanks, Pat

[Todd W. Vaughan]

That was good Jack, thanks.

All,

The photos show that Lt. Johnson has the Dr. pepper bottle inverted and has a pen or pencil (or something similar) inside it holding it up.

Lt. Montgomery quite possibly has something similar (a length of wood, perhaps) inside the bag. It is known that a piece of window trim was removed from the window by the DPD on the afternoon of 22 November 1963 to be checked for fingerprints.

Todd

I've often thought the same thing, Todd. But there's something weird about the trim, too. It isn't mentioned on the form on which Montgomery and Johnson submitted the bag and bottle. They supposedly brought it in to check for fingerprints, but then supposedly never got around to it, and only sent it in to the FBI as an afterthought.

Fingerprint manuals say windows and window trim are the first places one should look for fingerprints, so what's the Dealey-O?

I've also tried to spot from where on the window this trim was removed. Are you aware of any photos that show where it was removed?

Thanks, Pat

Pat,

I think (and I stress think) I might have the CSS for the piece of wood. I'll have to look and that might take a while.

I don't know of any photo showing specifically showing the missing trim, but there is 1 or 2 photos of the snipers nest showing a hammer and what could be a piece of trim lying loose on the inside ledge of the window directly next to the open one.

Todd

[Pat Speer]

That was good Jack, thanks.

All,

The photos show that Lt. Johnson has the Dr. pepper bottle inverted and has a pen or pencil (or something similar) inside it holding it up.

Lt. Montgomery quite possibly has something similar (a length of wood, perhaps) inside the bag. It is known that a piece of window trim was removed from the window by the DPD on the afternoon of 22 November 1963 to be checked for fingerprints.

Todd

I've often thought the same thing, Todd. But there's something weird about the trim, too. It isn't mentioned on the form on which Montgomery and Johnson submitted the bag and bottle. They supposedly brought it in to check for fingerprints, but then supposedly never got around to it, and only sent it in to the FBI as an afterthought.

Fingerprint manuals say windows and window trim are the first places one should look for fingerprints, so what's the Dealey-O?

I've also tried to spot from where on the window this trim was removed. Are you aware of any photos that show where it was removed?

Thanks, Pat

Pat,

I think (and I stress think) I might have the CSS for the piece of wood. I'll have to look and that might take a while.

I don't know of any photo showing specifically showing the missing trim, but there is 1 or 2 photos of the snipers nest showing a hammer and what could be a piece of trim lying loose on the inside ledge of the window directly next to the open one.

Todd

Thanks, Todd. I've noticed that photo, too. Strangely, however, it's the first photo taken of the sniper's nest by Studebaker, supposedly before anything was touched. If that's the trim in that photo, it means the photos of the shells were taken after they dusted the sniper's nest, and were a re-enactment.

http://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth49459/m1/1/sizes/

As the trim was reported to be about 40 inches long, however, it seems unlikely that piece of wood is the trim in question.

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=10406&relPageId=134

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=96283&relPageId=5

[David Josephs]

First off, thanks Jack... great stuff at that link and site

I wonder if this isn't the piece Day would have been talking about as the most likely to have a shooter's prints.

Need to search thru and see if there are any photos of the window later, during reinactments... That one where the camera is mounted on the rifle on the tripod right in front of the 6th floor window....

Wonder if Gary Mack can peak over at the window and see if this piece is still missing...

[Pat Speer]

First off, thanks Jack... great stuff at that link and site

I wonder if this isn't the piece Day would have been talking about as the most likely to have a shooter's prints.

Need to search thru and see if there are any photos of the window later, during reinactments... That one where the camera is mounted on the rifle on the tripod right in front of the 6th floor window....

Wonder if Gary Mack can peak over at the window and see if this piece is still missing...

Huh, I just took a look at an FBI photo of the window taken the next day, and it appears that the molding that is missing is missing from the second window, not the first. Hmmm... The FBI reports in April claim it is the sniper's nest window that's missing the molding... Hmmm...

FBI photo from 11-23

[David Josephs]

First off, thanks Jack... great stuff at that link and site

I wonder if this isn't the piece Day would have been talking about as the most likely to have a shooter's prints.

Need to search thru and see if there are any photos of the window later, during reinactments... That one where the camera is mounted on the rifle on the tripod right in front of the 6th floor window....

Wonder if Gary Mack can peak over at the window and see if this piece is still missing...

Huh, I just took a look at an FBI photo of the window taken the next day, and it appears that the molding that is missing is missing from the second window, not the first. Hmmm... The FBI reports in April claim it is the sniper's nest window that's missing the molding... Hmmm...

FBI photo from 11-23

Thanks for that Pat.... I did a quick comarison of the FBI image you posted and the Studebaker image... the cobwebs are even in the same place... they dusted that whole area for prints between 11-22 and 11-23 didn't they???