The other "other" film

[John Navin]

"The best evidence linking Phillips to Oswald surfaced in 1979, only to disappear in an apparent theft from the HSCA’s research materials:

In 1979 investigators for the House Select Committee on Assassinations discovered a training film from the archives of Georgetown University. [David] Ferrie, [Lee Harvey] Oswald, [Guy] Banister, and David Atlee Phillips were all on an 8mm "home movie" shot in the summer of 1963 (Hopsicker 2001, p. 153).

Antonio Veciana also appeared in the film, which was footage of a Cuban-exile guerilla training camp in Louisiana."

http://www.bottleofbits.info/econ/Langley.htm

[Greg Burnham]

Fascinating, John. I was not aware of this film. It's curious that it was found in the archives at the Jesuit Georgetown University of all places. I'm not attempting to overly emphasize the connection here, but Oswald also gave a speech at The Jesuit House regarding his experiences in the Soviet Union. Oswald's cousin, (can't recall his name at the moment, but he was Lillian Murret's brother) was studying for the priesthood there at the time and arranged it. I've been unable to determine if Oswald was invited to speak and his cousin arranged it or if it was Oswald's idea to speak and his cousin arranged it. But this "training film" of which you report is definitely worth tracking down, IMO.

[Zach Robertson]

In an interview with Dick Russell, Colonel William Bishop talked about having seen that same film.

William Bishop, interviewed by Dick Russell in 1990:

I did look into Oswald's background. I'd never met him, but I'd seen him in a training film in New Orleans the past summer. He just happened to be in the group out there at the Pontchartrain camp. Trying to get in with the anti-Castro exiles. I thought even then (after the assassination) that Oswald was a decoy. There's no way in hell he could have fired three shots in that space of time, with that accuracy, with that weapon.

Of course, when Oswald was killed, the Warren Commission's investigation was a big joke. The whole bit - Military Intelligence, CIA, FBI. Where the mistake was made, the intelligence reports coming in from various men in the field were not assimilated and categorized and broken down to get some logical conclusion. The Warren Commission went into this thing with a preconceived idea. Overly simplified, in Oswald's case they tried to take a round peg and drive that son of a bitch into a square hole. And they did it.

-- Zach

[Guest Tom Scully]

Do you (or might anyone reading here) have any actual media or other accounts of that incident with the Lake Pontchartrain camp(s) being shut down and the arms cache that was confiscated with specific dates? Any web-accessible sources on this would be greatly appreciated.

Ashton

Hello Ashton,

I hope this fits under the category of other. According to John Armstrong:

In the summer of 1963 there were as many as six Cuban exile training camps and weapons bunkers on the north shore of Lake Pontchartrain. According to Rene Carballo, a Cuban refugee living in New Orleans, one or more of the camps were run by "El Mexicano" (Francisco Rodriguez Tamayo), a Cuban exile who formerly resided in Miami.

On July 24, a group of anti-Castro Cubans from Frank Sturgis' International Anti-Communist Brigade (Miami) arrived in New Orleans and joined one of the training camps on the north shore of Lake Pontchartrain.

Al Campbell worked as an investigator for Guy Banister in 1958, 1959, 1962 and 1963 gathering information on suspected communist groups in the City. One one occasion, Campbell overheard Banister's secretary, Delphine Roberts, tell Banister that she saw Oswald handing out pro-Castro leaflets on a street corner. Banister replied, "Don't worry about him. He's a nervous fellow, he's confused. He's with us. he's associated with the office." Campbell said that Banister worked closely with Ray Huff of the CIA. He told HSCA investigators that Sergio Arcacha Smith spent a lot of time at the camps, and that many of the guns used for training the exiles were furnished by the Mardi Gras Corporation.....

Thomas Beckham, a runner for David Ferrie, Banister, Clay Shaw, Sergio Arcacha, and Grady Durham, told the HSCA that Ferrie came to meetings at Banister's office dressed in his green fatigues directly from the training camps at the Lake. Beckham once flew to Miami with Arcacha and Louis Rabel with a large suitcase of money and delivered it to Eugenio Martinez, a future Watergate burglar along with E. Howard Hunt and Frank Sturgis....

It was at one of the training camps that Lee Oswald was seen, and filmed, with an 8mm home movie in the summer of 1963, which was found in the Georgetown University Library. Following is a short excerpt from the film as described by Tanenbaum to Assassination Records Review Board in 1996:

"The camera's view moved to another group of men standing by a truck. One of the men in the group turned around and smiled at the camera. It was actually more of a smirk than a smile, the famous smirk....Lee Harvey Oswald. There were several unidentified men...."

President Kennedy orders the FBI to close the camps

....

....

Mike

[Kathleen Collins]

Fascinating, John. I was not aware of this film. It's curious that it was found in the archives at the Jesuit Georgetown University of all places. I'm not attempting to overly emphasize the connection here, but Oswald also gave a speech at The Jesuit House regarding his experiences in the Soviet Union. Oswald's cousin, (can't recall his name at the moment, but he was Lillian Murret's brother) was studying for the priesthood there at the time and arranged it. I've been unable to determine if Oswald was invited to speak and his cousin arranged it or if it was Oswald's idea to speak and his cousin arranged it. But this "training film" of which you report is definitely worth tracking down, IMO.

Had to comment. I'm not surprised an anti-Kennedy CIA film was found in Jesuit Archives. Or that Oswald gave a speech to the Jesuits. Ferrie was an ex-Jesuit.

About 6 weeks ago the Jesuits had to cough up 166 million dollars for molesting Native American and Eskimo children for years in their Jesuit run school in Alaska. You can't sweep that under the rug.

I hope we're still friends.

Kathy C

[Greg Burnham]

Fascinating, John. I was not aware of this film. It's curious that it was found in the archives at the Jesuit Georgetown University of all places. I'm not attempting to overly emphasize the connection here, but Oswald also gave a speech at The Jesuit House regarding his experiences in the Soviet Union. Oswald's cousin, (can't recall his name at the moment, but he was Lillian Murret's brother) was studying for the priesthood there at the time and arranged it. I've been unable to determine if Oswald was invited to speak and his cousin arranged it or if it was Oswald's idea to speak and his cousin arranged it. But this "training film" of which you report is definitely worth tracking down, IMO.

Had to comment. I'm not surprised an anti-Kennedy CIA film was found in Jesuit Archives. Or that Oswald gave a speech to the Jesuits. Ferrie was an ex-Jesuit.

About 6 weeks ago the Jesuits had to cough up 166 million dollars for molesting Native American and Eskimo children for years in their Jesuit run school in Alaska. You can't sweep that under the rug.

I hope we're still friends.

Kathy C

Hi Kathy,

If you're asking if "You and I" are still friends--we most certainly are!

I am after the truth no matter what it is, where it leads, or what it means. Moreover, I am no fan of the Jesuits--although they do provide an exceptional education. The reason I find the location of this "other other film" fascinating is because there are other "connections regarding the JFK assassination" to those who are ostensibly walking in the footsteps of Ignatius Loyola--from Marquette to Villa Nova, with several in between--and now Georgetown, too. Amazing.

BTW: Fidel and Raul Castro were both Jesuit trained.

Edited June 29, 2011 by Greg Burnham

[Dean Hagerman]

I want to see this film

It reminds me of the scene in "JFK" where Ferrie and Oswald are training out at Lake Pontchartrain

[John Navin]

More likely: Georgetown and the State Department have always had a close relationship. You can earn an international affairs degree at the school that can lead to a decent government career. And faculty members often come from State Department or other government backgrounds. An interesting bit of research would be to find who was teaching at the school (or getting a degree) in the Sixties/Seventies and see if they have any significant connection to the JFK/Cuba milieu.

Edited June 29, 2011 by John Navin

[Greg Burnham]

That's one of the interesting things about the Jesuits (actually the Catholic Church). You can "sin" (commit a crime) and confess it to a priest, recite a few Our Fathers and/or Hail Mary's (depending on the priest's mood), and be on your merry way--no jail time served even after a full "confession" of guilt. So, whoever "disappeared" the film did so with impunity for all intents and purposes. But, that's another story.

[William Kelly]

Here is the interview with Tanenbaum where he mentions the film:

http://www.ctka.net/pr796-bti.html

Its about halfway down.

Of course this film surfaced during the HSCA investigation, and the ARRB was responsible for learning what became of it, and Congress, specifically the House Oversight Committee, is responsible for reviewing the work of the ARRB and overseeing the JFK Act, so why not ask the House Committee what happened to it and why they aren't investigating the theft of government property, the destruction of government records, and why this and so many other similar records went missing?

BK

JFKCountercoup.blogspot.com

[John Dolva]

Here is the interview with Tanenbaum where he mentions the film:

http://www.ctka.net/pr796-bti.html

Its about halfway down.

Of course this film surfaced during the HSCA investigation, and the ARRB was responsible for learning what became of it, and Congress, specifically the House Oversight Committee, is responsible for reviewing the work of the ARRB and overseeing the JFK Act, so why not ask the House Committee what happened to it and why they aren't investigating the theft of government property, the destruction of government records, and why this and so many other similar records went missing?

BK

JFKCountercoup.blogspot.com

A : a thought has been supplanted by its antithesis.

[William Kelly]

That's one of the interesting things about the Jesuits (actually the Catholic Church). You can "sin" (commit a crime) and confess it to a priest, recite a few Our Fathers and/or Hail Mary's (depending on the priest's mood), and be on your merry way--no jail time served even after a full "confession" of guilt. So, whoever "disappeared" the film did so with impunity for all intents and purposes. But, that's another story.

I think this thread originally began as an inquiry into the other film of the assassination, which is documented as an exhibit entered into evidence in the Bray v. Bendiz case on the West coast.

As for the whole Jesuits thing, while their records must go back a few centuries before the CIA, I don't give them much credit for being too well organized, as most Jesuit priests, at least the ones I knew, didn't even agree among themselves. My first political science teacher, Father Quinton Walsh, was a Jesuit who smoked, drank and cursed, but thought clearly and decisively and made us read the classics.

When the CIA's Family Jewels were first mentioned, the news reports listed a number of things that were dealt with in those documents, specifically mentioning the assassination of foreign leaders, the use of LSD and MKULTRA mind control programs, the use of journalists as spies, AND the use of religious leaders and organizations as assets. When the so-called "Family Jewels" were released, I don't recall this last one being among them any more.

Without having investigated it, I would imagine that the Vatican and/or Jesuits were used as important links in international intelligence networks, especially in Latin America and Southeast Asia. They would especially be interested in missionaries, like John Birch's father in China and Tom Dooley in Vietnam. Dooley was backed by the CIA's International Rescue Committee and Leo Chere, who Oswald wrote to from USSR. They worked closely with refugees from Communist countries and were part of Gehlen's Operation Wringer, designed to obtain intelligence from those people. Both Dooley and the FBI's Hosty were Notre Dame guys, as is G. Robert Blakey, a professor there now.

The Kim Philby & company Cambridge spy ring was first recruited by a catholic priest who Stalin later executed. There are a number of Catholic connections to the JFK assassination where such a network can be perceived, especially among the Cubans, who were cared for by a CIA financed Catholic Welfare charity that had offices in Miami, New Orleans and Dallas and provided medical care to the Cuban exiles.

Father McChann, one of the Catholic priests in Dallas whose job was to cater to the social and religious needs of Cuban exiles, heard Syliva Odio's confession about her visitors before anyone else, and he introduced John Martino to an audience that included most of the Dallas Cuban community and their supporters. After the assassination McChann left Dallas abruptly and surfaced at a New Orleans monastery. In New Orleans, Oswald's cousins the Murats were strong Catholics, and one of the connected universities there (Loyola?) is Catholic, but then so am I. But McChan was a witness and cooperated with the SS and assisted in their investigation of Odio's story before leaving the priesthood and moving to Thailand.

I don't know if McChann was Jesuit, as were the seminarians (including a Murat) who Oswald addressed about his life in the Soviet Union, but don't think the use of such associations was limited to just that order.

There's also J. E. Hover's pal Rev. Carl MacIntyre, a fundamentalist presbyterian, and there's a Catholic priest whose mixed up in the Mexico City shenanigans.

As for the missing film of the New Oreans training camp film that ostensibly includes Oswald, I'd like to know how it ended up at Georgetown in the first place, and there certainly should be some record of it's existence, as there is of the Other DP film as part of the Bray/Bendix trail.

And I'd like to thank JH for pointing out the fact that Georgetown is also the home of The Kennedy Institute of Ethics, where they take politics to absurd limits, and make it apparent that they aren't as organized as conspiracists believe.

Home :: The Kennedy Institute of Ethics

Edited June 30, 2011 by William Kelly

[Michael Hogan]

"The best evidence linking Phillips to Oswald surfaced in 1979, only to disappear in an apparent theft from the HSCA’s research materials:

In 1979 investigators for the House Select Committee on Assassinations discovered a training film from the archives of Georgetown University. [David] Ferrie, [Lee Harvey] Oswald, [Guy] Banister, and David Atlee Phillips were all on an 8mm "home movie" shot in the summer of 1963 (Hopsicker 2001, p. 153).

Antonio Veciana also appeared in the film, which was footage of a Cuban-exile guerilla training camp in Louisiana."

http://www.bottleofbits.info/econ/Langley.htm

MICHAEL L. KURTZ is professor of history and dean of the graduate school at Southeastern Louisiana University and the author of Crime of the Century: The Kennedy Assassination from a Historian’s Perspective. The University of Tennessee Press 1982. On page 203, Kurtz writes:

One of the most significant eyewitness observations was of Ferrie, Oswald, and numerous Cubans, all dressed in military fatigues and carrying automatic rifles, conducting what appeared to be a "military training maneuver." This event took place near Bedico Creek, a swampy inland body of water near Lake Ponchartrain, about fifty miles north of New Orleans. This occurred in early September 1963, two months after the final government raid on anti-Castro guerrilla camps in the United States.

Kurtz has a reputation as a careful historian; however his only citation for the above is: Author's interview with George Wilcox, 9 Sept. 1979.

In his book Harvey & Lee, John Armstrong wrote:

It was at one of the training camps that Lee Oswald was seen, and filmed, with an 8mm home movie in the summer of 1963, which was found in the Georgetown University Library.

Following is a short excerpt from the film as described by Tanenbaum to Assassination Records Review Board in 1996:

"The camera's view moved to another group of men standing by a truck. One of the men in the group turned around and smiled at the camera. It was actually more of a smirk than a smile, the famous smirk....Lee Harvey Oswald. There were several unidentified men...."

Armstrong is mistaken. The above was taken from Tanenbaum's novel. If accurate, why didn't Tanenbaum tell this to Jim DiEugenio or the ARRB?

This is what Tanenbaum told Jim DiEugenio:

JD: Another thing you've discussed and it's featured in your book, is this incredible movie of the Cuban exile training camp.

BT: To the best of my recollection, we found that movie somewhere in the Georgetown library archives. The movie was shocking to me because it demonstrated the notion that the CIA was training, in America, a separate army. It was shocking to me because I'm a true believer in the system and yet there are notorious characters in the system, who are being funded by the system, who are absolutely un-American! And who knows what they would do, eventually. What if we send people to Washington who they can't deal with? Out comes their secret army? So, I find that to be as contrary to the constitution as you can get.

JD: Was it really as you described in the book, with all the people in that film? Bishop was in the film?

BT: Oh, yeah. Absolutely! They're all in the film. They're all there. But, the fact of the matter is the Committee began to balk at a series of events. The most significant one was when [David Atlee] Phillips came up before the Committee and then had to be recalled because it was clear that he hadn't told the truth. That had to do with the phony commentary he made about Oswald going to Mexico City on or about October 1st, 1963.

______________________________________

Tanenbaum's testimony to the ARRB (italics added):

DR. HALL: I have a two-part question for you. Part one is, I think in your answer to Judge Tunheim about what other materials might be there, you didn't speak to the question of the film that you mentioned both in your probe interview as well I believe in Corruption of Blood that deals with anti-Castro Cubans and the group that was there. So I wonder if you could speak to that particular matter. And then let me if I could give you the other half of this and wrap it up into one big ball. Do you have any materials from your days with the HSCA?

MR. TANENBAUM: Let me take the last question first. I have no documents at all. Anybody can go into my office and they won't find any land deals there either or anything else. And that's even in my private office. But certainly when I was in the government the same was true. I have nothing and walked in as -- walked out I should say as I walked in.

As far as where the film is, again, I can only tell you that all of the material I assume was in the same place, and that is where all the documents were kept in the document area as well as -- and when I say "documents" I include in that statement witnesses and memos that were drafted, films, medical evidence and other pieces of evidentiary value. So I can't tell you exactly what room it was in, but we had it in our possession.

DR. HALL: And that film had been obtained from the Georgetown University library?

MR. TANENBAUM: That's my best recollection is that our investigators, researchers found it in the Georgetown library archives as I recall.

DR. HALL: And just for the record, the significance of this film if it were now recovered, would be?

MR. TANENBAUM: If it showed -- again, it could be Sherlock Holmes again. It could be everything it could be nothing. On one hand it shows a lot of anti-Castro Cuban players with CIA contract people in a military training setting. It was some speculation, somewhat unclear, as to the direct identities of some of these people, and as I stand here now I'm not going to tell you exactly who they were. But, it was some of the major players in this whole case.

Now, does that mean, for example, and in direct answer to your question, Mr. Hall, that if we continued our probe into the anti-Castro Cuban connection with the CIA that that would show that the CIA in some fashion was responsible for the assassination, I can't say that and will not say that. And it doesn't mean also that Lee Harvey Oswald didn't act alone, I can't say that. But there's certain medical evidence and other evidence that suggests that perhaps he did not act alone. That's a whole different area of inquiry. So with respect to the film, it was just another piece of this great mosaic of trying to understand and recapture what occurred at a time. And that's one of the reasons why it was a fascinating view.

DR. HALL: But the critical piece here, this is a piece of material that you had previously seen in the course of your role as an investigator that is at the moment not available --

MR. TANENBAUM: Again, I don't know where it is -- but, yes, I did see that as my role on the Committee.

DR. HALL: Thank you.

_____________________________________

I don't own Tanenbaum's novel Corruption of Blood and I can't find my copy of Hopsicker's book, so I'm at a disadvantage, but....

It seems to me that a "home movie" showing Oswald in the company of Ferrie, Banister and/or Phillips would be one of the closest things to a smoking gun that the HSCA uncovered.

I mean blockbuster.

Tanenbaum seemed strangely unconcerned about whatever happened to the film. So did the ARRB for that matter. Has anyone on the HSCA staff ever corroborated Tanenbaum's testimony?

Did anything about the film ever appear in the HSCA report? Who found it at the Georgetown library archives? How did it get there? Why didn't it become a bigger deal than it did?

Did Gaeton Fonzi mention it in his book? Why not?

Like so many things in this case, accounts are vague and almost apocryphal. It's frustrating.

Postscript: After finishing this post, I found this discussion here. I do not normally visit this site and almost hate to link to it, but in this instance I think it's worthy of inclusion.

There is a post with an excerpt of Tanenbaum's description of the film that appeared in his novel.

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/browse_thread/thread/75f711dc0ca70ed4/13eef288a4528786

Edited June 30, 2011 by Michael Hogan

[John Navin]

Almost certainly unconnected, but...wow...here's John Simkin's 2005 post on "The Georgetown Set" -- http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=4015

And I'm sure there's no connection to The International Police Academy which was located at Georgetown University, but if you want to read about it, here's the link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Office_of_Public_Safety

Edited June 30, 2011 by John Navin