Alterationists vs Non-Alternationists?

[Mike Rago]

The intent of this post is not to cause division. It is to define the divisions and see how strong they are.

The first major classification that I see between the people who believe in conspiracy is between those who believe the Zapruder Film , and I guess all other photographic evidence , has been altered to support the lone gunman theory and those who do not believe the photographic evidence has been altered to support the lone gunman theory.

This is a very major division. I would say it is an incompatible division and needs to be resolved. As long as it exists there is no hope that a solution will be accepted.

Edited August 6, 2012 by Mike Rago

[Mark Knight]

Film alteration takes us to a slippery slope. If you believe SOME of the films are altered, it calls others into question. If ALL the film evidence has been altered, then NONE of it is trustworthy, and we may as well just consider any thought that comes into our minds concerning the JFK assassination as plausible...because we know that eyewitness testimony isn't always 100% accurate, either.

Now, if "missing frames" in the Z-film [and other films] constitutes alteration...then I would have to say that I come down on the side of film alteration. Otherwise, I'm simply NOT enough of an expert on the subject to state conclusively that any alteration actually occurred.

MY question is...on the versions of the Z-film available on the internet, when the limo gets in front of Zapruder, it seems that all the foreground--the street, and all of the car except the tops of the doors, etc.--disappears...as if Zappy suddenly zoomed in. DOES THE ORIGINAL DO THIS? Who has seen the original, and is therefore qualified to answer this question [besides maybe Tink Thompson]?

[James R Gordon]

Mike,

Had this question been raised, even five years ago, I would have been very skeptical of such a notion. However, today I am beginning to see it as the central question of the assassination.

I still have some reluctance to embrace that someone somewhere medled with the body, and the theories of Douglas Horne are just too extreme to accept. I have a high respect for David Lifton, and I will await his material on Zapruder manipulation, but I have always found it difficult to accept, especially understanding the enormity of what would be involved.

However, all that said, I am beginning to think that body alteration may well have taken place. And if that took place, then maybe it happened elsewhere.

As this forum will know I have spent he last few months looking at he medical evidence. In looking at this material too many questions are being raised.

a) Assuming you are not a supporter of the Warren Commission, then you will be aware that a bullet entered JFK's throat. However no bullet was discovered. As I see it there are only three options

i. The SBT theory is not a theory but a fact and that explains it. I have presented, along with many other members, reasons why that is not a valid proposition.

ii. That a bullet actually was discovered, but never registered. It is possible, but I find it difficult to see how such a find could escape the eyes of Sibert and O'Neil. For those reasons, although it has logic, I don't see this as avalid proposition.

iii) That just leaves the option that a bullet was removed at some point and that is why a bullet was not found.

A bullet entered the throat AND that bullet did not exit the body. From a logical perspective I can only see three possibilities, outlined above, and since two are non starters for me, that leaves only one option: at some point it was removed.

I am coming to his view, not from a theoretical perspective but from one of logic.

Although I have only just started my study of the head wound, there are already serious questions being raised that I can find no logical answer for.

The damage to the Pons being severed from the Midbrain makes no sense. Humes was not aware that this had happened until he turned the head over. Such damage was not visible from the top of the head. O.k. I am sure some of you will already being offering reasons why Fox 2 shows significant brain matter at the top of the skull.

The first problem for me is that the top of the head, although damaged, has a significant portion of the brain matter still there and visible. Yet underneath this area, that is still contained within the head, is a major dislocation of critical areas of the brain. As well, the position of the Pons is well behind the skull damage that we see in Fox 2.

If it is to be argued that Pons could be damaged by the force of the explosive powers created by the passage of the bullet, then I find it curious that the upper brain matter was left essentially intact, as seen in Fox 2, yet below that extraordinary damage has been done.

However where this contradiction becomes extremely curious is when you map the damage on a 3D model. Then I become faced with a multitude of "Why's" and "How's". And it is these unanswered questions that lead me to wonder whether there is another process been going on. If this damage had been done by the consequence of the bullet, I would have expected to see much more damage in the upper brain area and hopefully see some of this damage to he Pons from above. But you don't, and neither did Humes. He only was aware of it when he turned he brain over.

David Lifton argues that this damage was done in order to find and remove bullets. he would argue that in cutting to find and remove the bullets that is how his was done. I noticed an interesting comment by Humes. In this lower area of the brain, Humes comments that there was a number of lacerations going in all directions. He suggests that the reason for all these tears was the effect of the power of the bullet on the brain. It is possible, but I could think of another reason for these tears.

Alteration or Non-Alteration. My movement towards alteration is not based on any particular theoretical perspective. For me it is based of impossible contradictions and unanswerable questions. Too many questions, which I am daily being confronted with, is making me more and more suspicious and my suspicions are leading me to the only logical conclusion: at some point the body was tampered with.

James

[David Josephs]

Mike - I will ask only once and this applies to ALL EVIDENCE IN THIS CASE

AUTHENTICATE IT.

Max Phillips sends a letter to Rowley that the THIRD COPY IS BEING SENT.... when in fact Zap has the master and "the best copy from the three produced",

Sorrels has 2 copies and Max sends yet another ... 0184? THAT NIGHT.... 11/22 at 9:55.

An 8mm film.... so the 16mm film that was received at NPIC as the "original" came from ?????

CD - 87 Folder 1

CO2 34030 11/22

9:55

To: Chief Rowley

From: Max D. Phillips

Subject: 8mm movie film showing President

Kennedy being shot

Enclosed is an 8mm movie film

taken by Mr. A. Zapruder, 501 Elm St., Dallas

Texas (RI8-6071)

Mr.. Zapruder was photographing

the President at the instant he was shot.

According to Mr. Zapruder, the position of

the assassin was behind Mr. Zapruder.

Note: Disregard personnel scenes

shown on Mr. Zapruder’s film.. Mr. Zapruder

is in custody of the "master" film. Two prints

were given to SAIC Sorrels, this date.

The third print is forwarded.

Max D. Phillips

Special Agent - PRS

Mr. LIEBELER - As you stood there on this abutment with your camera, the motorcade came down Houston Street and turned left on Elm Street, did it not?

Mr. ZAPRUDER - That's right.

Mr. LIEBELER - And it proceeded then down Elm Street toward the triple underpass; is that correct?

Mr. ZAPRUDER - That's correct. I started shooting--when the motorcade started coming in, I believe I started and wanted to get it coming in from Houston Street.

Sitzman: Yes. Well, he stood up there, and he asked me to come up and stand behind him, 'cause when he takes the pictures looking through the telescopic lens, he might get dizzy, and he wanted me to stand behind him, so in case he got dizzy I could hold onto him. so I got up behind him, and we saw the motorcade turn the corner at Main onto Houston. He hadn't started taking the pictures there then, and we watched them as they came down Houston; and just as the motorcycles that were leading the parade came ... started ... came around the corner and started down the hill, he started taking the pictures then.

Curious... are there other examples of the camera STOPPING... STARTING.... and the frames prior to and just after the Stop/Start are blurry, while the start up frame is PERFECT... no lightened areas like Z001?

Mr. TRULY. That is right.

And the President's car following close behind came along at an average speed of 10 or 15 miles an hour. It wasn't that much, because they were getting ready to turn. And the driver of the Presidential car swung out too far to the right, and he came almost within an inch of running into this little abutment here, between Elm and the Parkway. And he slowed down perceptibly and pulled back to the left to get over into the middle lane of the parkway. Not being familiar with the street, he came too far out this way when he made his turn.

Mr. BELIN. He came too far to the north before he made his curve, and as he curved--as he made his left turn from Houston onto the street leading to the expressway, he almost hit this north curb?

Mr. TRULY. That is right. Just before he got to it, he had to almost stop, to pull over to the left.

If he had maintained his speed, he would probably have hit this little section here.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Is there any single frame, photo or film that depicts this occurring?

So Mike,

We KNOW frames are missing from the film... 156/57, 205-212, and btw did you know about the zplice at 341 that was replaced with a different film's frame?

So we KNOW the film was in at least 3-4 pieces at some point.

LIFE and the NPIC could NOT find a shot occurring at 224.... 190, 203, 206, 242, 264.... all were marked for having a shot visible... the WCR says that JC could NOT have been hit after 240...

there are 40 frames in the reload of the weapon...

If JFK is hit at Z190... why is it that we do not see JC reacting to the SBT scenario until well after 225?

[David Josephs]

Mr. LIEBELER - Now, the thing that is troubling me, though, Mr. Altgens, is that you say the car was 30 feet away at the time you took Commission Exhibit No. 203 and that is the time at which the first shot was fired?

Mr. ALTGENS - Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER - And that it was 15 feet away at the time the third shot was fired.

Mr. ALTGENS - Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER - But during that period of time the car moved much more than 15 feet down Elm Street going down toward the triple underpass?

Mr. ALTGENS - Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER - I don't know how many feet it moved, but it moved quite a ways from the time the first shot was fired until the time the third shot was fired. I'm having trouble on this Exhibit No. 203 understanding how you could have been within 30 feet of the President's car when you took Commission Exhibit No. 203 and within 15 feet of the car when he was hit with the last shot in the head without having moved yourself. Now, you have previously indicated that you were right beside the President's car when he was hit in the head.

Mr. ALTGENS - Well, I was about 15 feet from it.

Here we have Altgens, 15 feet from JFK... at frame 341... 30 frames after the actual headshot seen on the Zfilm...

Mr. ALTGENS - Yes. What made me almost certain that the shot came from behind was because at the time I was looking at the President, just as he was struck, it caused him to move a bit forward. He seemed as if at the time----well, he was in a position-- sort of immobile. He wasn't upright. He was at an angle but when it hit him, it seemed to have just lodged--it seemed as if he were hung up on a seat button or something like that. It knocked him just enough forward that he came right on down. There was flesh particles that flew out of the side of his head in my direction from where I was standing, so much so that it indicated to me that the shot came out of the left side of his head. Also, the fact that his head was covered with blood, the hairline included, on the left side all the way down, with no blood on his forehead or face--- suggested to me, too, that the shot came from the opposite side, meaning in the direction of this Depository Building, but at no time did I know for certain where the shot came from.

BREHM expressed his opinion that between the first and third shots, the President's car only seemed to move 10 or 12 feet. It seemed to him that the automobile almost came to a halt after the first shot, but of this he is not certain. After the third shot, the car in which the President was riding increased its speed and went under the freeway overpass and out of his sight.

and finally, my favorite WCR statement of all....

(e) The configuration of the Presidential car and the seating

arrangements of the Secret Service agents in the car did not afford

the Secret Service agents the opportunity they should have had to

be of immediate assistance to the President at the first sign of

danger.

(f) Within these limitations, however, the Commission finds

that the agents most immediately responsible for the President’s

safety reacted promptly at the time the shots were fired from the TSBD.

Can anyone point out the agents MOST IMMEDIATELY RESPONSIBLE (Greer and Kellerman??) for protecting the POTUS

REACTING PROMPTLY... thanks.

[Mike Rago]

Mr Josephs I am still waiting for you to respond to my question in the Black Dog thread. I asked that specific question as a means of authentication. I am still hoping that you will respond ....

http://educationforu...=75#entry257600

Regarding the "authentication" of the Zapruder film I think I have offered bits of very good authentication.

Another question I asked you was do you really think that the people altered the Zapruder frame 313 to show ejected bone material from the head in order to cover up that the head was operated on between Parkland and Bethesda? You still have not answered that question as well.

Are there frames missing from the Zapruder film? There might be.

Did someone draw in the ejected skull on frame 313? I have no doubt that did not occur.

Edited August 6, 2012 by Mike Rago

[Craig Lamson]

We KNOW frames are missing from the film... 156/57, 205-212, and btw did you know about the zplice at 341 that was replaced with a different film's frame?

So we KNOW the film was in at least 3-4 pieces at some point.

sigh.....

http://www.assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/

[David Josephs]

Congrats Craig... you know how to link to zframes...

You also know that these frames were replaced with frames from the supposed SS copies, from which more copies were made... yet their copies did NOT have the IS images... hence the darkness there during those frames...

You have an explanation for Z341 do you? Sure looks like something went awry on that frame... and the SS had to splice in a frame of their own.... yet no where in the WCR do we hear about a problem with THAT frame... maybe cause they stopped looking at frames right around that spot since according to them, the shot had occurred 30 frames before....

Mike... looking at those questions all I see is a wide eyed boy asking incredulous questions about something he does not want to hear about...

and the same little boy crying wolf and wondering why no one believes him...

Yes' date=' I have given my opinion of what I see in the photos. And you are right that is all it is my opinion.

[/quote']

Your questions asking what I SEE is still not the point... What can you coroborrate about the existance of that woman and baby, in that spot at that time...

Nothing. Come back when you have more than opinion....

[Mike Rago]

Your questions asking what I SEE is still not the point... What can you coroborrate about the existance of that woman and baby, in that spot at that time...

Nothing. Come back when you have more than opinion....

You totally ignored the information I gave you in the Lee Bowers thread...

What you are willing to admit you see is exactly the point. Just admit what you see in the picture. You will not admit it because to do so will corroborate what I see.

You still have not anwered the Zapruder question. I will ask it again....

Do you really believe that people altered Zapruder frame 313 to add ejected skull in order to coverup horseplay between Parkland and Bethesda? You will not answer this question either because to do so will once again corroborate what I see.

Edited August 6, 2012 by Mike Rago

[Craig Lamson]

Congrats Craig... you know how to link to zframes...

You also know that these frames were replaced with frames from the supposed SS copies, from which more copies were made... yet their copies did NOT have the IS images... hence the darkness there during those frames...

You have an explanation for Z341 do you? Sure looks like something went awry on that frame... and the SS had to splice in a frame of their own.... yet no where in the WCR do we hear about a problem with THAT frame... maybe cause they stopped looking at frames right around that spot since according to them, the shot had occurred 30 frames before....

So where are the missing frames? Did the camera original be all chewed up and busted up? Of course it did. Are there frames MISSING from the Zapruder footage in the areas you suggest? Nope, they are all right there. And unless you can go beyond your silly theory that something weird happened you are all hot air, as usual.

[David Josephs]

Your questions asking what I SEE is still not the point... What can you coroborrate about the existance of that woman and baby, in that spot at that time...

Nothing. Come back when you have more than opinion....

You totally ignored the information I gave you in the Lee Bowers thread...

What you are willing to admit you see is exactly the point. Just admit what you see in the picture. You will not admit it because to do so will corroborate what I see.

You still have not anwered the Zapruder question. I will ask it again....

Do you really believe that people altered Zapruder frame 313 to add ejected skull in order to coverup horseplay between Parkland and Bethesda? You will not answer this question either because to do so will once again corroborate what I see.

First off, I believe you completely misinterpret what Lee says and you place these men in the wrong places... the MOUTH OF THE UNDERPASS is to the WEST Mike... not EAST by the pergola or in the direction of Zapruder... the OPPOSITE DIRECTION.... WEST, toward the MOUTH of the overpass....

Mr. BALL - Now, were there any people standing on the high side---high ground between your tower and where Elm Street goes down under the underpass toward the mouth of the underpass?

Mr. BOWERS - Directly in line, towards the mouth of the underpass, there were two men. One man, middle-aged, or slightly older, fairly heavy-set, in a white shirt, fairly dark trousers. Another younger man, about midtwenties, in either a plaid shirt or plaid coat or jacket.

In terms of the BDM image... I KNOW it was not a baby and mother, just like I know there was noone kneeling in front of the wall... it's an illusion you;ve bought into and cannot get away from....

and Mike... I'm all for you thinking whatever you want... hell... write a book about the mom and baby... but like the Gordon Arnold story... it is extremely difficult to coroborrate.

Finally, re:Zappy. Coroborrating what you see? please.

As sure as you are about that being a mom and baby... I am sure that the Zfilm was altered to remove evidence of more than one shot to the head and the extreme slowing of the limo that made it linger in that area for as long as it did.. but then again you are wrong about the BDM while I am right about the Zfilm.

BREHM expressed his opinion that between the first and third shots, the President's car only seemed to move 10 or 12 feet. It seemed to him that the automobile almost came to a halt after the first shot, but of this he is not certain. After the third shot, the car in which the President was riding increased its speed and went under the freeway overpass and out of his sight.

Add this to what Altgens says and the outright LIE of the Plat legend that places the head shot UP THE STREET AT 313 rather than where it really was, 30 feet farther down... and MAYBE you can start to understand how the Zfilm was changed...

are you familiar with that situation? Do you understand that 4+65, where the legend tells us 313 occurred is 30 feet EAST of where it actually occurred... at 4+95...

Mr. LIEBELER - And that it was 15 feet away at the time the third shot was fired.

Mr. ALTGENS - Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER - But during that period of time the car moved much more than 15 feet down Elm Street going down toward the triple underpass?

Mr. ALTGENS - Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER - I don't know how many feet it moved, but it moved quite a ways from the time the first shot was fired until the time the third shot was fired. I'm having trouble on this Exhibit No. 203 understanding how you could have been within 30 feet of the President's car when you took Commission Exhibit No. 203 and within 15 feet of the car when he was hit with the last shot in the head without having moved yourself. Now, you have previously indicated that you were right beside the President's car when he was hit in the head.

Mr. ALTGENS - Well, I was about 15 feet from it.

Here he is, 15 feet from JFK... looks to me that JFK has already been shot... how again can the measurements, the film and Altgens all be correct?

[David Josephs]

Congrats Craig... you know how to link to zframes...

You also know that these frames were replaced with frames from the supposed SS copies, from which more copies were made... yet their copies did NOT have the IS images... hence the darkness there during those frames...

You have an explanation for Z341 do you? Sure looks like something went awry on that frame... and the SS had to splice in a frame of their own.... yet no where in the WCR do we hear about a problem with THAT frame... maybe cause they stopped looking at frames right around that spot since according to them, the shot had occurred 30 frames before....

So where are the missing frames? Did the camera original be all chewed up and busted up? Of course it did. Are there frames MISSING from the Zapruder footage in the areas you suggest? Nope, they are all right there. And unless you can go beyond your silly theory that something weird happened you are all hot air, as usual.

We are simply talking frames that are no longer in the "original".

The WCR published the SPLICED FRAMES right here....

And here is Z209.... taken from a copy that did not have the IS area exposed and SPLICED into the original?

Z157 was messed up too... wanna explain who even the SS spliced in frame has the same strange line across the frame as the original, if Life says the film broke right there? Or did they just splice it right at that point and call it a day?

and again at Z341 which goes completely unexplained... Whether there was other alterations is quite obvious... LIFE/NPIC placed shots at 190, 203, 213, 242, 265 and 312... nothing betweewn 222 and 240 where it is obvious JC has been hit with something. He says 230.... How does LIFE and NPIC miss a shot that enables the SBT to work?

[Mike Rago]

I did not ask you what you "know". I asked you what you see in the image.

[Craig Lamson]

Sheesh David where do you get these crazy ideas that frames were SPLICED INTO THE CAMERA ORIGINAL FILM? LMAO!

And when you resort to this;

"Whether there was other alterations is quite obvious..."

You are simply reduced to joke status...

Enjoy your fantasy world, you truly deserve it.

[Daniel Gallup]

Mike,

Had this question been raised, even five years ago, I would have been very skeptical of such a notion. However, today I am beginning to see it as the central question of the assassination.

I still have some reluctance to embrace that someone somewhere medled with the body, and the theories of Douglas Horne are just too extreme to accept. I have a high respect for David Lifton, and I will await his material on Zapruder manipulation, but I have always found it difficult to accept, especially understanding the enormity of what would be involved.

However, all that said, I am beginning to think that body alteration may well have taken place. And if that took place, then maybe it happened elsewhere.

As this forum will know I have spent he last few months looking at he medical evidence. In looking at this material too many questions are being raised.

a) Assuming you are not a supporter of the Warren Commission, then you will be aware that a bullet entered JFK's throat. However no bullet was discovered. As I see it there are only three options

i. The SBT theory is not a theory but a fact and that explains it. I have presented, along with many other members, reasons why that is not a valid proposition.

ii. That a bullet actually was discovered, but never registered. It is possible, but I find it difficult to see how such a find could escape the eyes of Sibert and O'Neil. For those reasons, although it has logic, I don't see this as avalid proposition.

iii) That just leaves the option that a bullet was removed at some point and that is why a bullet was not found.

A bullet entered the throat AND that bullet did not exit the body. From a logical perspective I can only see three possibilities, outlined above, and since two are non starters for me, that leaves only one option: at some point it was removed.

I am coming to his view, not from a theoretical perspective but from one of logic.

Although I have only just started my study of the head wound, there are already serious questions being raised that I can find no logical answer for.

The damage to the Pons being severed from the Midbrain makes no sense. Humes was not aware that this had happened until he turned the head over. Such damage was not visible from the top of the head. O.k. I am sure some of you will already being offering reasons why Fox 2 shows significant brain matter at the top of the skull.

The first problem for me is that the top of the head, although damaged, has a significant portion of the brain matter still there and visible. Yet underneath this area, that is still contained within the head, is a major dislocation of critical areas of the brain. As well, the position of the Pons is well behind the skull damage that we see in Fox 2.

If it is to be argued that Pons could be damaged by the force of the explosive powers created by the passage of the bullet, then I find it curious that the upper brain matter was left essentially intact, as seen in Fox 2, yet below that extraordinary damage has been done.

However where this contradiction becomes extremely curious is when you map the damage on a 3D model. Then I become faced with a multitude of "Why's" and "How's". And it is these unanswered questions that lead me to wonder whether there is another process been going on. If this damage had been done by the consequence of the bullet, I would have expected to see much more damage in the upper brain area and hopefully see some of this damage to he Pons from above. But you don't, and neither did Humes. He only was aware of it when he turned he brain over.

David Lifton argues that this damage was done in order to find and remove bullets. he would argue that in cutting to find and remove the bullets that is how his was done. I noticed an interesting comment by Humes. In this lower area of the brain, Humes comments that there was a number of lacerations going in all directions. He suggests that the reason for all these tears was the effect of the power of the bullet on the brain. It is possible, but I could think of another reason for these tears.

Alteration or Non-Alteration. My movement towards alteration is not based on any particular theoretical perspective. For me it is based of impossible contradictions and unanswerable questions. Too many questions, which I am daily being confronted with, is making me more and more suspicious and my suspicions are leading me to the only logical conclusion: at some point the body was tampered with.

James

James, Dr. Kemp Clark told the New York Times a few days after the assassination that the bullet that entered his throat "ranged downward" and did not exit. I looked into this further and the best I can tell is that this information was relayed to him by Dr. Perry. Recall now that the FBI report and death certificate indicated a shallow back wound around T-3. So there would be no corresponding exit to the anterior throat wound. Think also if the autopsy description of the throat wound (its size and condition) sounds like a trach incision. Lifton has Perry on record as indicating the size as 2-3 cm in length. That's less than half the size of the wound appearing in the photos and described by Humes. I think one can reasonably connect the dots and ascertain that the bullet was removed by widening the trach incision somewhere between Parkland and the official autopsy beginning at 8:00 pm at Bethesda or shortly thereafter. That's alteration to remove evidence of the real nature of the killing. And if the perps were willing to dig into Kennedy's throat, they would certainly want to dig into his head, as gruesome as this sounds, to complete their job. That would certainly explain the horrible condition of the top of the skull as seen in the autopsy photos and the absence of such at Parkland, and would account for Humes' comment which the FBI picked up about surgery of the head area, at the top of the skull.