James R Gordon

Robert Prudhomme wrote:- "What Humes was being directed to conceal, I believe, was the very odd situation of a full metal jacket, round nosed bullet hitting JFK's back at just over 2000 feet per second, not striking any ribs as it entered his pleural cavity, and not exiting the front of his chest. For such a bullet to come to a stop midway through his right lung would be nothing short of miraculous. Even more miraculous would be for that bullet to come to a stop after only penetrating an inch of the skin of JFK's back. As I have stated before, there are a limited number of exotic types of bullets capable of doing this, and none of them would have been available to a minimum wage earner at the TSBD in 1963. And, as all clues indicate the same type of exotic bullet(s) caused massive amounts of damage to JFK's skull and brain, it becomes somewhat easier to understand why the true nature of the damage to JFK's right lung had to be concealed." I am not sure I fully agree, but I believe we need to explore this issue: what was Humes thinking as well as the pressure he was put under. From what I can see the right lung was seriously compromised. I cannot get passed Humes reply to SenatorCooper's question about what was the character of the bruise. Commander HUMES. “The bruise here, photographs are far superior to my humble verbal description, but if I let my hand in cup shaped fashion represent the apical parietal pleura, it was an area approximately 5 cm. in greatest diameter of purplish blue discoloration of the parietal pleura. Corresponding exactly with it, with the lung sitting below it, was a roughly pyramid-shaped bruise with its base toward the surface of the upper portion of the lung, and the apex down into the lung tissue, and the whole thing measured about 5 cm., which is a little - 2 inches in extent, sir.” H2 369 The size of this damage astonishes me. Homes constantly refers to it as a bruise, but what he describes is anything but a bruise. The only explanation I can think about is that a bullet was responsible. ​Now whether that bullet went not to the spine is an issue of debate. I am not sure it did, but it is certainly an issue worthy for debate.

Robert, An excellent thread. The passing of the blame onto the Parkland doctors - especially Malcolm Perry - just shows how Humes worked. He knew very well when that report was written that JFK was not suffering from subcutaneous emphysema. I understand that what happened was that after the Autopsy, Commander Humes made two phone calls to Malcolm Perry in Dallas. The first was an exploratory call to see what had been done. It was during this call that Humes was informed about the neck wound. This was when he discovered that what he had thought was a tracheotomy, was indeed one - but also one cut over an existing wound. Something Humes had not been aware of. The second call was quite specific and was about the Chest Tubes. Malcolm Perry referring to this call said he (Humes) subsequently called back and inquired about the chest tubes, and why they were placed and I replied in part as I have here. It was somewhat more detailed. H6 16 When the Autopsy report came to be written, although the use of chest tubes was acknowledged, their purpose had been changed. The report stated that Incisions were made in the upper anterior chest wall bilaterally to combat possible subcutaneous emphysema. CE 387 2 Humes use of language is really interesting. Homes uses the adjective "possible. He knew very well the real reason why the chest tubes had been inserted. However the use of this word covered him and allowed the suggestion to be made that there was an anterior reason why the tubes had been employed. The report did not reflect that the real reason Parkland had decided to use them which was because they feared the right lung had been damaged. When Malcolm Perry was interviewed by the HSCA he was asked about the Autopsy reports description of why the Chest Tubes had been used. He replied: Its interesting to me - and Im not being critical - but its interesting to me that the pathology report does not reflect that. ( That being Parklands real reason for ordering the chest tubes. ) The autopsy report said that those incisions were made to combat subcutaneous emphysema which is not a - in the current jargon - a viable therapeutic technique. 1HSCA 309 What Malcolm Perry is saying is that no reputable surgeon would dream of using Chest Tubes to cure subcutaneous emphysema! So why state something in the Autopsy Report Humes knew to be untrue? The chest tubes had been employed because Perry felt the right lung might have been damaged. It appears that was something Humes did not want in the report. James

Robert, Had your PDF been a text pdf you would have been able to copy and paste. Unfortunately the PDF you had was an image pdf and so there was no way you would be able to copy and paste text. Therefore not being able to copy and paste had nothing to do with your computer skills. James

John, we may be talking at cross purposes and actually with each other. I was never referring to any particular map. What I was saying was that from the various maps I used - Drommer, restoration map and Don's map - I was able to locate various buildings on my model. The size and positions of the streets and pavements was able to guide me quite well. You are quite right to point out the pergola. It was a major problem. As I point out in post 5 I ended up using a rectangle - created from other measurements - to pin point its position. And I am not saying I was 100% accurate. But I believe - as far as the North Pergola is concerned - I was pretty damn close. What made me confident was that I transferred Don's Zapruder points onto the model. When I later measured from the Oswald window to various JFK positions I was astonished how accurate the model was. When I placed the car at Z313 and rotated the model JFK's position compared to Zapruder's position seemed correct. So I believe I had the North Pergola correct.

Richard, The restoration plans appear to have been taken off-line. Here is a link to my copy. https://www.transferbigfiles.com/1e8f322f-a1b0-424b-84d2-ecb2d01716a5/2ddj6dkN7LY6trh2AKJGEQ2 As for the slope unto the pergola as a guesstimate it would be around 25º before it flattens out to around 10º. It certainly rises sharply before it flatten out. It is believed the Elm street is around 3º. However if you look at the Drommer map - I think - and Don's map - it is not as even as that, However as basic working premise, 3º is a good working figure. I used the difference between Houston street and the bottom of the triple underpass. I had two clear figures - HASL - for both and created a slope between the two.

There are only two significant building South of Main Street. They are: Old Red and the Post Office. Both of them are positioned correctly on the maps I have seen. Which maps - in your opinion - do not correctly position those two buildings?

Which buildings are in the wrong position?

John, I agree Commerce Street has a different shape to Elm, however their length is the same. I agree that the position of the south pergola with regard to south grassy knoll compared to the north grassy knoll is slightly different. I worked off two major maps which I found to be accurate: Don's map and the restoration map. I did contact Gary Mack about the issue of the mirror image of the plaza. It was not something he had thought about but he agreed that essentially the plaza was a mirror image. It makes a lot of sense that when building the plaza Main Street was the centre and the North and South sides were effectively the same.The railroad line and the position of the Triple Underpass has an impact on the shape of the southern knoll. The position of the buildings is quite easy to work out because we know the sizes of all the buildings and we know the size of the pavements and roads and so it is not too difficult to place them I found the restoration map quite accurate on this issue. Certainly - without any doubt - the 660 figure is right. The level of the two car parks is right. The lengths of Elm and Commerce is right. Both pergolas are on the same southern plane: you can draw a line from one to the other. I stand by my comment that effectively Dealey Plaza is basically a mirror image. Yes the shape Commerce street and the imposition of the railroad line does effect the south knoll but essential I believe the plaza is a mirror image. James

Michael, There are two documents that you need to get hold off. Both are downloadable: a) Don Roberdeau's map The restoration plans for Dealey Plaza. Both assist with the kinds of questions you are wanting answers to. I did work on a model of the plaza but was diverted onto other projects. Here is an example of my work. As you rightly point put the accurate placing of the pergola was a problem for me. Here is a working document I used to place it.I used a rectangle box to place it. Now to some measurements:- a) from the south wall of the TSBD to the edge of the north pavement on main street is 300ft The roads outside the plaza are 60 feet wide. Those inside are 40 feet. c) All Pavements are 10 ft wide d) from the edge of the west pavement on Houston st. to the TSBD 425 ft. i.e. Main Street is 425 ft. e) Elm and Commerce streets are 495 ft. f) Not including the railing aspect of the Tripple underpass, the Underpass is 24 ft lower that the level of Houston street. g) I believe the railyard fence is 5ft High. That was the value I worked with. h) I assumed the level of the carpark was the same as Houston street. If you are looking at the complete plaza, then none it is mirror image. a) From the north wall of the post office to the north edge of there south pavement of main street is 300 ft. Therefore from the wall of the TSBD to the wall of the Post Office is 660 ft. The level of the Post Office carpark is the same as the north plaza carpark. If there is anything else I can help please get in touch. James

To all members and visitors a happy new year to you. May the coming year bring happiness to you all.

Thomas, As I see it, it is not a stupid question. If we can establish who is and who were not on the steps that might help in identifying who the individual PM is. Eliminating who were not there really does help in establishing who might still be there. It would appear to be being able to both prove remained on the steps and where they were positioned would greatly assist in this search. James

Robert, From what I can see from your post 18 you agree with Bart that Bill Shelly did leave the steps but that Lovelady remained on the steps. You argue that Shelly later returned and entered the building. So, as I see it, you accept that Shelly did leave the steps and cannot be counted as one of the individuals on the steps. It appears to me you are halfway to agreeing. The discussion now is whether we can establish whether Lovelady remained on the steps or whether he also left the steps. James

Robert, The sidetracking of RESEARCH THREADS will be scrupulously monitored. I do not know to whom you refer but such efforts will be immediately hidden when discovered. We do not monitor such behaviour on the normal threads, but a RESEARCH THREAD, by its very nature cannot allow the efforts of any to divert the leader's intent as demonstrated in the summary document. Two examples of such behaviour that will not be tolerated on a RESEARCH THREAD is the posting of screeds of data - even though it may be historically accurate - that has no analysis and argument attached with it. And Second the posting of data that is not relevant to the topic under discussion OR the posting of data without explanation which the poster believes argues their case. None of the above is outlawed on normal threads - even though to other members it can be irritating. RESEARCH THREADS are focused on argument and debate based on evidence and relevant to the leader's topic as outlined in his/her summary document.

Sandy, My understanding of the summery document is that it should " be a depository of notable findings and conclusions, as well as items of continued contention." What it should not be is "one sided." I am sure no summary document will ever be like that. As you say Sandy these threads should be able to prevent discoveries getting "buried" with information that has nothing to do with the thread. That is certainly the intention.

The administrators are announcing the introduction of Research Threads. A research thread is one that is led by a member. That member writes a summary academic type document on an issue in JFK research. These summary documents are stored and locked in the Research forum. There is a hyperlink from this document to the research thread. These threads will most often be pinned - though obviously depending on the number research threads that may constitute a problem. Therefore each Research Thread is headed by a hyperlink to the summary document. This allows members to - not only read - but also copy and paste portions which will help them in the debate and discussion. a) Research threads are very different from normal threads - they are prefaced by a research document. Normal threads allow branching to different related topics within the same thread. That will not be allowed on a research thread. the research document has spelled out the subject and direction and therefore any such posts will be hidden. c) It is assumed that participants will have read the summary document. Posts that demonstrate that there has been no account taken of the summary document will be hidden. The reason is that a Research thread attempting to examine an issue and - if possible - break ground and therefore divergence on to different areas of thinking hamper the purpose of a research thread. d) Research threads are about research, debate and discussion and argument. Therefore any member who just posts lists screeds of information and quotations from historical sources will be hidden. The purpose of a research thread is one where we see members actively arguing and debating what fellow members have stated and argued. Members might say "is that not already happening." We would argue that it is not happening. There are many cases of information dumping without an analysis of that information and why it supports or contradicts a particular position. e) The writer of the summary document will be deemed to lead the thread. How successful these threads will be only time will tell. But the purpose of a Research Thread is to make the effort in the hope to break new ground. The first Research Thread will shortly appear on the subject of Prayer Man. Any member who would like to lead a Research Thread please contact a member of the admin team. Aside from leading the thread, the member will be expected to write a an academic summary document covering both sides of the topic and suggesting fruitful areas of research and debate. Research Threads are not anticipated to replace the normal threads that are main focus of this forum.Nor are Research Threads considered superior to the normal thread. They are not. But they are a different way members can argue and debate the assassination of President John F. Kennedy.

The administrators are fed up with fire fights that have occurred between members. Members have - in the past - had their posting privileges removed. Sometimes without warning. In the case of Duncan we have not done that. Aside from the present issue - and particularly with regard to PM - he has made posts that ( had they been made by other members ) would have incurred a more active response. It was me who hid the post that Duncan is concerned about. In addition to hiding the post I PM Duncan and asked that he moderate his language. That was all. Normally I would delete a members membership when requested, but on this occasion I wish to take time to think about it.

I concurr with the recent post that Kathy has just made. I have hidden a large number of posts by members who really should have known better. Of late we administrators have been very pleased with the tone of debate and conversation between members. I am assuming that this present debate is just an isolated incident and not something that will be repeated. However if any member decides to repeat this behaviour - that you all know to be unacceptable - then that member ( or members ) will have their posting privileges removed for weeks!!! Please let us all return to the very civilised level of debate and conversation we have become used to.

Roy, The map is not mine but Don Roberdeau's map. Duncan's keep a live link to the most recent update. If this link does not take you to the map you will find it in Dealey Plaza approx page 3. Link to Don Roberdeau's map:- http://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/displayimage.php?album=31&pos=47 220 is a reasonable point of impact. I sometimes think it might be a little earlier. I diid write an article on JFK's wounds some time ago. You might want to look at it. https://www.transferbigfiles.com/0a2eb94b-dd89-4cfc-b2a1-183dc0b76004/3L2Gk9o_L9ynaF0r1eF9cQ2 James.

Yes Robert I agree. I had forgotten this point. I checked my own trachea as I turned to the right and it remained as it was.

Tom, Abebooks have copies of the Best Evidence for a few dollars. They even have hard back copies. Might be worth a look. I got an excellent hard back copy there. James

Thanks Barry linking members to the DPUK archive. The present editors intend to republish the entire archive. The present Journal is published in a full colour 40 page booklet. In this edition the editors were offered so many first class articles that the November 2015 volume includes the 40 page print journal and 3 digital volumes devoted to the work of three researchers. Here is a image of the front page of the first current colour volume. The journal is printed in 4 page booklet form but to allow members an indication of what they are missing not being members of DPUK her is a sequential pdf of our first colour version. The covers refers to this volume being Part 1. Part 2 was an overflow digital copy and Part 3 was an Interactive PDF with copies of past presentations at Canterbury including Joan Mellon's presentation. https://www.transferbigfiles.com/7a934867-3c88-4886-a7da-357c6b09c2b0/GvUyNZAcTaEVUb6F4fJ11w2 James

That's a great resource! I have tons of questions for those folks. This is question number 1, for Sherry Fiester: "Will you place all the material (scenes, models, files), etc. used in the A Coup in Camelot movie on the Internet so they become property of The People"? "Otherwise you are no better than Dale Myers". "How come some fellow named Ramon F Herrera seems to be the only one with that policy and formal promise"? I guess we could ask the same question/request from Mr. Oliver Stone. -Ramon I am not sure that Sherry is able to provide such material. From what I can see she is not the Producer or Director but a contributor. I am not sure she is responsible for the film. I see that in the US it may be possible to see and - maybe even - down load the film. This address appears to be streaming the film. However it is not available to the UK. http://www.fulltv.tv/movies/a-coup-in-camelot-2014.html Thanks, Gordon: A few days ago, I sent an e-mail to Stephen Goetsch, who directed me to his 3D animator, James Neal. http://www.jamesnealfilms.com/ Thanks for the link, too!! I am convinced that if the movie producers join and lead this initiative, the movie may be forgotten, but the 3D Dealey Plaza Model will remain forever. There is a requirement, however, it must be open, available to all. -Ramon I saw a few frames of the 3D animation. It is not bad, but it is not perfect. The model I could really do with is Dale Myers. He may have played fast and loose with his data interpretation, but his animation skills are the bench mark for others to strive for. As for a Coup in Camelot, Why I would like to get my hands on this film is the resolution of the images. For the first time we may get much more information from the images.

That's a great resource! I have tons of questions for those folks. This is question number 1, for Sherry Fiester: "Will you place all the material (scenes, models, files), etc. used in the A Coup in Camelot movie on the Internet so they become property of The People"? "Otherwise you are no better than Dale Myers". "How come some fellow named Ramon F Herrera seems to be the only one with that policy and formal promise"? I guess we could ask the same question/request from Mr. Oliver Stone. -Ramon I am not sure that Sherry is able to provide such material. From what I can see she is not the Producer or Director but a contributor. I am not sure she is responsible for the film. I see that in the US it may be possible to see and - maybe even - down load the film. This address appears to be streaming the film. However it is not available to the UK. http://www.fulltv.tv/movies/a-coup-in-camelot-2014.html

Roy with reference to Post 444. The POV of Zapruder compared to the reality of where Z 190 is on Elm Street are two very different points. For Zapruder it may look as if the car is passing behind the Stemmons sign. Actually that is not the case. The car is 54 feet above the sign. Actually it will be three seconds in Zapruder film time before the car actually reaches where Zapruder suggests it is. As regards Z190:- Aside from the distance from the Grassy knoll to where JFK is this is a very problematic notion. First:- opposite and facing JFK are around 12 people. Many are at the edge of the pavement and are only around 12 feet from him. Do you feel they would be unaware that he had just been shot in the throat. Second:- At this point JFK is not looking forward but 90º to his right. That means the trachea entrance point has also moved to the right and is now no longer visible. Third:- Even if the witnesses would not be aware of the shot AND even if it was possible to strike the correct point, the trajectory analysis would require the bullet to drive leftward and certainly smash through Kennedy's spine. James

Chris, I absolutely agree. Such an image makes clear that there can be no doubt whether the seat is raised or not. James