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    South Knoll Shooter

    in JFK Assassination Debate

    Posted · Edited by William Plumlee

    Tosh, some pages of images that you may want to inspect, if you haven't already:

    http://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/galle...m=31&pos=43

    http://www.manuscriptservice.com/FFiDP-2/

    I was told that The Cuban was making a fist and flashing a Victory sign at the limo to signify attempt 2 or to tell Greer where to stop. If this is true, The Cuban in most probability is "Gator." His V-sign wasn't a V sign at all. He was merely holding up the only 2 fingers he had. (The lower right corner photo)

    Also in that photo the Umbrella Man's umbrella seems painted in.

    Kathy C

    Here is a thought to consider: In picture #3 where all the people are running toward the north end of the underpass, could it be that they were running after the limo as it headed under the rail road to see what the results of the shooting caused? Even the railroad workers cross over to the other side to see the Limo speed off toward Parkland. What did they hope to see? The Limo? Or had bad the shooting was?..., or if the President had indeed been hit? Some who had ran toward that direction said they thought the shots came from that direction near the grassy north knoll and the fence and that is why they ran to that location. I am familiar with the Warren Report and what some say as to why they ran to that location. Others had said a different reason why they ran to that location. Perhaps selective testimony was used in the recap of events. Its possible.

    I think I would have been going the other way if I thought someone, or a nutcase, had shot at the President from there and might still be there. As to the motorcycle patrolman? If I were him I too might think, after seeing people running in that direction, that they might be trying to catch the shooter, or thought the shots came from over there and he drove up the slop or catch the shooter. Could it not be that most were only trying to see what was happening inside the Limo after the shots had been fired at the President?

    I know what the record says. But who established the record that day? Was it an accurate account of events as they happened? Could the echo effect had something to do with the direction of the shooting? What about the sound of a firecracker after some of the shots, or at the time of the shots? Could that have been the "windshield" being shot and hit? I find it difficult to accept that a shooter behind the fence less that ten feet away from some who were standing in front of the allege shooter or slightly to the side watching the Parade also ran toward the triple underpass. Would they not have turned and moved toward the shooter at the fence, or away from the shooter, or just hit the ground and covered their heads? Or perhaps ran the other way to get out of the way or another lunatic shot?

    If we are to speculate then lets speculate and argue till the next century on some of these thoughts. With all the possibilities established after years.., all the pros and cons and egos.. we are going to be here for a very very-- long long time. Tosh

    P.S. As to officer White being able to see behind the wedge bannister and pillar, you have to take into account that the railroad bed was raised some four or five feet above the foundation base with base rock that supported the load of train traffic in those days. If he was standing on or near the base of the bridge below the railroad grade, then he could not see someone crouched or prong in that area of the wedge and banister pillar. That would be a perfect place for a shooter to hide himself ..., even from view of the south parking lot which is lower than the bridge foundation base. I can see two shooters there.. one in the parking lot and the one positioned in the wedge. Perhaps you would have to go to the Plaza today in order to get a perspective on this. Keep in mind that today the railroad tracks (Metro tracks) are about two feet lower than they were in 1963.

    Tosh, I was on Google Earth Street View and got a good look of Dealey Plaza. I cannot see how anyone could shoot President Kennedy from the South Knoll. It would really have to be a magic bullet. However, underneath the Triple Underpass, there was plenty of opportunities from a gunman to shoot at the President. The walls had "slots" in them where someone could stand within and hide.

    There is a man running towards the Assassination, crossing over to Main and Commerce and Houston. He had been down by the Underpass and Elm. Something frightened him. He is seen in 3 films, including the Zapruder film. Early in the afternoon, the FBI got a call from a man saying he had been down by the Underpass and saw "signals." He didn't give his name. Now if the Underpass was OK, he could have stayed hidden there if he saw signals and heard shots. But he ran toward the Assassination.

    Kathy C

    "..underneath the Triple Underpass, there was plenty of opportunities from a gunman to shoot at the President. The walls had "slots" in them where someone could stand within and hide...".

    It would make a good debate. However, If someone was shooting from that location they would be below the limo. The street slops down into the overpass. At the time of the shots, the limo was higher, or above this allege shooter. Two other matters have to be taken into consideration: The angle of Elm street and its slight turn to the left and the location and elevation of the south end upper pillar of the underpass. The Limo would be perhaps a few feet higher, or almost level with the south end of the underpass at the time of the shots. I believe it is a little bit higher than where the Limo was at the time of the shots. Doug posted a view from that location and I believe the position was slightly above the Limo at the time of the shots. As to the throat shot, if one, I believe it came from that location, over or through the windshield, or perhaps missed. And two, #2, as the Limo came from behind the Stemmons Freeway sign, I believe Kennedy was slightly turned to his left and leaning slightly toward Jackie. (before he went behind the sign he was turned a little to his right before the shot) I have ask the experts to survey this via film and topo... but as yet, only speculation. I remember the position at the south side in the wedge, to be slightly elevated, because after we left the Plaza we had a slight incline to walk up to the overpass base and the rail road tracks. And too, we were a few feet above the man in the pickup truck, who was almost level with the killzone. The south wedge and pillar were a few feet higher than he and a little higher than Sergio and I.

    I am not sure what you mean about "Google Earth". I do not think that would give a good perspective as to depth and alignment. Perhaps, I am not following. I asked sometime back if someone could or would take a look today from the south knoll, as well as the parking lot and the "Wedge and Pillar" of the underpass.., but nobody has responded and the thread has been dropped. Of course I am working off memory and feelings. I have been back there hundreds of times after the shooting. The first impressions, of that day, are still fresh in my memory.

    Thanks for your input and interest. Tosh

    For Tosh

    in JFK Assassination Debate

    Posted

    Tosh, did you ever hear of a Donald O. Norton or meet someone by that name?

    Thanks,

    Kathy C

    The short answer is NO. The long answer: However, I was asked about him some years ago in reference to a place near Marathon Key Florida, "Starlite Cruises", a fishing and boat cruise ran by Chubby Winer of Marathon. (before the hurricane Andrew) Don Norton was a name often used by the INTEL community as a drop name, one of many drop names used in various UC operations of the sixties. Paul Lee was another and Norton and Lee used to work out of the old Lowrey Air Force Base in Denver, Colorado around 1980. Paul Lee was active in the Iran-Contra affair. There was a Don Norton who was a pilot who worked with Chip Tatum and Bill Cooper and Buz Sawer during the early days of the contra resupply network. (Operation Enterprise and Supermarket) I am familiar with some saying Norton was Lee Oswald, but I do not buy that. As I have said Norton is a common name used in black operations of the CIA. At one time I used the name 'Buck Pearson"..., not Buck Parsons of BoP fame, as some have confused me with.

    Was Chubby Winer a redhead? "Donald O. Norton" of Avon Park, FL was in the fishing and boating industries and he was chubby.

    Thanks for responding. "Donald O. Norton" nearly drove me nuts.

    Kathy C

    I can't remember for sure. I did meet him in Marathon Key a few months before Hurricane Andrew came through. (1990-91?) He told me an interesting story about a deputy Sheriff who had been killed down there some years before. It seems this officer was on a raid at a safe house of some Cubans near Marathon, who were involved in running guns into Cuba around 1963 and into the early 70's. I am not sure when this deputy was killed, but I think around the seventies. (Puto ??, I think was the deputy's name, or something like that.., hit by a car and killed--not sure if that is right) There was a name on a truck (not the truck who hit the deputy) that was used as a safe house transport. "We Have no Bananas, today", was on the side of the truck. Chubby knew who owned the truck or it was his truck. Besides the boat rental and the fishing cruises, Chubby had a part interest in the produce deliveries to local restaurant and the truck was used for those deliveries. Not sure if any of this means anything for you. Take care Tosh

    South Knoll Shooter

    in JFK Assassination Debate

    Posted

    I must agree, your information re the south side shot imo is entirely a different subject in it's own in the area of tosh and his observations in being there that day etc.but are ..two separate fields but similar and relating to each other in a very important way... and we need it to come together but not if tosh leaves though he has always been very open and wanting such looked into and released so it could have been time for the researchers to have had both side in otherwards but not if his bag has been packed, imo tosh i cannot understand your doing so, in the past i have broken a thread with other info and have been asked the same to start a new thread, and have done so, so have many others so you could also. it's no big deal....if you do want all out there so it can possibley be worked on and connected..sorry to repeat myself but this kind of thing cheeses me off and it shows as a rule...take care all i shall too...best b..

    a couple of others b..the second one if from tosh's approximate area...of view ...

    See also the DCM thread for more information on the south knoll photo as well as Feb 18 2010, 10:41 PM

    Post #16 south knoll shooters; picture #5

    I took the day, this Sunday the end of February, 2010 to review the forum and back postings. It was not easy; especially when some in the past have accused me of evading the issues and deleting my post. Most of the threads I posted quickly went to the rear with the gear, never to be heard from again. Similar to the South Knoll threads of today.

    So much information has been lost or refused to even be looked at or read, because of whatever reasons. Below are an example of but a few: There is more, much more... seems some only want to argue and flip flop the information, rather than to take it into research: Not bitching..., just wondering why:

    http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...12477&st=15

    http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...t=0&start=0

    http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...12045&st=15

    http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...12045&st=30

    Dark complected man

    in JFK Assassination Debate

    Posted · Edited by William Plumlee

    Credit: John Woods.

    post-2082-1168895616.jpg

    Credit should be Jack White. I made all known prints of this man from the Grant negative.

    Gary Shaw deserves the credit, since he obtained the negative and asked me to make

    enlargements.

    John Woods is a collector like Robin.

    Woods, like you Jack, has a good collection of photos, perhaps he got some from you; as well as others:

    Does anyone have a picture of Capt. Edward G. Seiwell, Fourth Army Reserve, Dallas Love Field; 1955 era And Captain Gilbert Cook, 49th Armored Division, Texas National Guard? Gary Shaw, or Barnard Finsterwald Jr. did have a picture of both of these people, I think... but not sure. (1975 while he and Larry Harris were working on their book; "COVER-UP"... and... 1981 meeting with Finisterwald in Denver Colorado.

    I know Peter Lemkin and I, have been researching this person for a number of years. We seem to always run up to a "blank wall", on any details about him. He was somehow connected with the Texas Boys, and General Walker. But in what way--not sure. I have been told recently that Seiwell died awhile back (in his nineties) BUT, another report received last week said he is still alive and lives in Dallas. This is a hard nut to crack. Why so much flak around Seiwell?

    Captain Edward G. Seiwall U.S. Army; Dallas TX

    in JFK Assassination Debate

    Posted · Edited by William Plumlee

    Here is a thread that went dead many years ago. I posted the question so the names could be researched. It led to nothing but "infighting". Perhaps things are different today. The question was never answered except by James Richards and Steve Thomas (only replies)

    Note I bold and colored some of the areas I would like info on. (2010)

    http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=5831

    Additional information posted years ago:

    "... The Pentagon's Praetorian Guard - The Education Forum - 6:52am

    4 posts - 2 authors - Last post: Jan 12, 2006

    The Commanding officer for this small group was Captain Edward G Seiwell, previous OSS WWII who worked with Wm. Harvey and 'Wild Bill' ...

    educationforum.ipbhost.com › ... › JFK Assassination Debate - Cached -

    How did the police first learn of 1026 N. Beckley?‎ - May 27, 2005

    Felipe Vidal Santiago‎ - Oct 22, 2004

    ".... Post #1

    Advanced Member

    Group: Members

    Posts: 990

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    From: d

    Member No.: 1680

    #2004

    "... This question was asked over a year ago. Perhaps someone has uncovered new information on a few of these operatives recently:

    Does anyone know anything about this "Special" unit that came from Fort Bliss, Texas, Logan Heights, in 1954 known as a RTC D8 "REDBIRD ONE" ? This unit was later, attached to the Texas National Guard 49th Armord Division based at Dallas Love Field.

    This unit was later assigned to the Fourth Army Reserve into an INTEL unit at Dallas's Love Field. The Commanding officer for this small group was Captain Edward G Seiwell, previous OSS WWII who worked with Wm. Harvey and 'Wild Bill' Donovan before the CIA was formed. This unit was sometimes called, "The Praetorian Guard" a specialized operational force attatched to the Pentagon, which later received training at 'The School of The Americas in GA..

    Any background information would be appreciated. Tosh Plumlee (question never answered or addressed about the unit at Ft Bliss)

    --------------------

    Biography: http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=1874

    This was a good reply and lead to follow..., but?

    James Richards

    Jan 12 2006, 04:18 AM

    Post #2

    Super Member

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    Joined: 8-April 04

    From: The Gold Coast, Australia

    Member No.: 624

    Hi Tosh,

    In 1953, Edward Seiwell commanded Company B, 737th Medium Tank battalion. I believe this was part of the 90th Division. Brig. Gen. Arthur P. Watson being the commanding officer of the division.

    I seem to remember Seiwell having something to do with Ed McLemore. I can't find the reference in my notes for now.

    FWIW.

    James

    William Plumlee

    Jan 12 2006, 05:30 AM

    Post #3

    Advanced Member

    Group: Members

    Posts: 990

    Joined: 11-October 04

    From: d

    Member No.: 1680

    William Plumlee' date='Jan 11 2006, 09:05 PM' post='51063']

    --------------------

    Biography: http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=1874

    Thanks James. Yes I think your right about Ed Mc Lemore. I might have mentioned him in a previous post. Ed Mc Lemore owned the "Sportatorium" in Dallas. He was also a close friend of Gordon Mc Clendon (phon) who owned radio KLIF and too, a close associate or Clint Murchenson Sr. and operators of an Oil and gas drilling company in Midland Texas which LBJ held a financial interest.

    Johnny Farentello's father had the concessions at the Wrestling arena ("The Sportatorum") Johnny was a close friend of John Martino of Miami. Fred Black used to hang out at the Sportatorum, as well as Mc Wallace. Jack Ruby made bets on "Gorgus George" a wrestler of the time and Fred Black covered the bets. Candy Barr and Gary Dean Bearing also associated with this Dallas gambling bunch and others in Fort Worth Texas. These same people also hung out at " Austin's Bar BQ in Oakclif ( West Dallas) with Tom Pugh and Tippit of the Dallas PD.

    I am trying to make the connection between the Army Intell unit, Seiwell and these people, because the money for guns were funneled through this place and some of these people had connections with Alpha-66 and Cecil Fernandez as well as others from Morgan City LA. Some of the weapons came from the Texas National Guard.

    Any help in this direction would be apreciated. I am not interested in the Cubans or Florida. That whole thing had nothing to do with JFK and Dallas. That was ongoing for a long time before JFK was murdered.

    Thanks again; Tosh

    Background references and documentation on William R Plumlee U.S.Army:

    P.S. Captain Seiwell was commander of a tank bat Fourth Army Reserve, at Dallas Love Field. I was a Cpl at the time and held the MOS for a "Tank Driver" I was a CPL at the time of my discharge and Seiwell signed my honorable discharge which qualified me for GI benefits. These benefits were used for flying lessons at White Rock Aviation, Dallas Texas.

    Reference to document locations:

    Notes Regarding References:

    Certified military Records can be found on William R. Plumlee at the Texas Adjutant General, State of Texas, Headquarters,Texas National Guard; also at the archived files of the Fourth Army Reserve and Fifth Army, located at Camp Mabry, Austin Texas. The following is a brief summary of these records:

    Enlistment Record of William Robert Plumlee:

    Texas National Guard 49th, Armored Division; United States Army, Fourth Army HDQ, Fort Bliss Texas; Fourth Army Reserve, Dallas Love Field, Dallas, Texas.

    Recap of documents found at the Texas Adjutant General, Camp Mabry, Austin Texas:

    Office of Origin (OO) Records at Office of Adjutant General State of Texas Camp Mabry, Texas.

    William Robert Plumlee S/N RA- 18389060; 9th of Feb 1955; grade CPL; Auth for grade 25-1; enlisted under authority of (NGR25-1) For service in NGS Texas; Company C 156Tk Bn. Fourth Army Reserve; DoB 11 25 37; Civil Trade or Occupation: Aircraft Mechanic, Southwest Airmotive, Dallas Love Field, Dallas, Texas.

    Enlistment Records:

    22Oct52 thu 8th Feb53 NG Enl s/n25926077 Pvt disc. HonMin; Disc. 8Feb53; re enl.

    28th Sept53 thu 2Mar54USAR 4th Army; 18389060 Grade at disc.USAR, CPL.

    3Mar54 thu 2Jul USA s/n18389060 rank CPL; United States Army (USA) Ft Bliss Texas assn. temp dty (unknown).

    6Jul54-No Record of Disc. tnsf. Texas 4th Army Res, Dallas Love Field, Dallas Texas. Co C156Tk Bn.CO Capt. assn 'Specialized operations, Intel: Commanding officers; Capt. Gilbert B Cook; Texas National Guard: 2ndLt. Charles R Brannon, Arty; Ft. Bliss, Texas, (RTC); Capt. Edward G Seiwell, Fourth Army Reserves, Dallas, Texas; MOS: WR Plumlee 1795, 3795 Tank Crew man Tk Commander, Sherman Tank. Cpl. Plumlee USA MOS 'Unknown'; Unknown sta. Ft. Bliss, Texas; Fort Hood,Texas, National Guard; Unknown.

    Texas National Guard; Texas Fourth Army Reserve; Certified Copy of Available Documents By; XXX referenced doc loc. "on file".

    Medical reports: Personnel Records Center, St Louis, MO.

    This post has been edited by William Plumlee: Jan 12 2006, 05:44 AM

    William Plumlee

    Jan 12 2006, 05:59 AM

    Post #4

    Advanced Member

    Group: Members

    Posts: 990

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    From: d

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    Biography: http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=1874

    Thanks James. Yes I think your right about Ed Mc Lemore. I might have mentioned him in a previous post. Ed Mc Lemore owned the "Sportatorium" in Dallas. He was also a close friend of Gordon Mc Clendon (phon) who owned radio KLIF and too, a close associate or Clint Murchenson Sr. and operators of an Oil and gas drilling company in Midland Texas which LBJ held a financial interest.

    Johnny Farentello's father had the concessions at the Wrestling arena ("The Sportatorum") Johnny was a close friend of John Martino of Miami. Fred Black used to hang out at the Sportatorum, as well as Mc Wallace. Jack Ruby made bets on "Gorgus George" a wrestler of the time and Fred Black covered the bets. Candy Barr and Gary Dean Bearing also associated with this Dallas gambling bunch and others in Fort Worth Texas. These same people also hung out at " Austin's Bar BQ in Oakclif ( West Dallas) with Tom Pugh and Tippit of the Dallas PD.

    I am trying to make the connection between the Army Intell unit, Seiwell and these people, because the money for guns were funneled through this place and some of these people had connections with Alpha-66 and Cecil Fernandez as well as others from Morgan City LA. Some of the weapons came from the Texas National Guard.

    Any help in this direction would be apreciated. I am not interested in the Cubans or Florida. That whole thing had nothing to do with JFK and Dallas. That was ongoing for a long time before JFK was murdered.

    Thanks again Tosh

    Background references and documentation:

    P.S. Captain Seiwell was commander of a tank bat Fourth Army Reserve, at Dallas Love Field. I was a Cpl at the time and held the MOS for a "Tank Driver" I was a CPL at the time of my discharge and Seiwell signed my honorable discharge which qualified me for GI benefits. These benefits were used for flying lessons at White Rock Aviation, Dallas Texas.

    Reference to document locations:

    Notes Regarding References:

    Certified military Records can be found on William R. Plumlee at the Texas Adjutant General, State of Texas, Headquarters,Texas National Guard; also at the archived files of the Fourth Army Reserve and Fifth Army, located at Camp Mabry, Austin Texas. The following is a brief summary of these records:

    Enlistment Record of William Robert Plumlee:

    Texas National Guard 49th, Armored Division; United States Army, Fourth Army HDQ, Fort Bliss Texas; Fourth Army Reserve, Dallas Love Field, Dallas, Texas.

    Recap of documents found at the Texas Adjutant General, Camp Mabry, Austin Texas:

    Office of Origin (OO) Records at Office of Adjutant General State of Texas Camp Mabry, Texas.

    William Robert Plumlee S/N RA- 18389060; 9th of Feb 1955; grade CPL; Auth for grade 25-1; enlisted under authority of (NGR25-1) For service in NGS Texas; Company C 156Tk Bn. Fourth Army Reserve; DoB 11 25 37; Civil Trade or Occupation: Aircraft Mechanic, Southwest Airmotive, Dallas Love Field, Dallas, Texas.

    Enlistment Records:

    22Oct52 thu 8th Feb53 NG Enl s/n25926077 Pvt disc. HonMin; Disc. 8Feb53; re enl.

    28th Sept53 thu 2Mar54USAR 4th Army; 18389060 Grade at disc.USAR, CPL.

    3Mar54 thu 2Jul USA s/n18389060 rank CPL; United States Army (USA) Ft Bliss Texas assn. temp dty (unknown).

    6Jul54-No Record of Disc. tnsf. Texas 4th Army Res, Dallas Love Field, Dallas Texas. Co C156Tk Bn.CO Capt. assn 'Specialized operations, Intel: Commanding officers; Capt. Gilbert B Cook; Texas National Guard: 2ndLt. Charles R Brannon, Arty; Ft. Bliss, Texas, (RTC); Capt. Edward G Seiwell, Fourth Army Reserves, Dallas, Texas; MOS: WR Plumlee 1795, 3795 Tank Crew man Tk Commander, Sherman Tank. Cpl. Plumlee USA MOS 'Unknown'; Unknown sta. Ft. Bliss, Texas; Fort Hood,Texas, National Guard; Unknown.

    Texas National Guard; Texas Fourth Army Reserve; Certified Copy of Available Documents By; XXX referenced doc loc. "on file".

    Medical reports: Personnel Records Center, St Louis, MO.

    Previous Information that should be looked into:

    Now we need to look at the Forth Army Reserve, Dallas Love Field. There was at one time a report from Company C 156th Tank Bat. which was relayed to 112th Intel at Fort Sam Houston which had Oswald living on Beckley for a very short time. They had received other earlier information from a 49th Armored Div. Texas National Guard, a Capt Cook and that information was sent to an ONI unit at Hensley Field Grand Prairie, Texas, requesting information about the status of LHO. This request was made before LHO had lived on Beckley and before he went to N.O. LHO name was on record with ONI before Beckley.

    Congressman Tom Downing had received the documents from an 'unknown officer" of the Forth Army Reserve, Dallas. In time this information and documentation was given to a Texas State Representative, in Austin Texas. Shortly after this information was received by Congressman Downing. The hard copy was lost or misplaced shortly before the HSCA was chaired.

    The WC did not obtain this information.

    Professional researchers need to research the Forth Army Reserve and do a cross check on the names found in the Fourth and the Fifth Army and cross check the ONI Navy field office at Hensley or Bauchman Lake near Dallas Love Field.

    John SimkinNov 25 2004, 12:44 AM

    QUOTE(Steve Thomas @ Nov 22 2004, 07:35 PM)

    Captain Fritz knew Oswald lived on Beckley before he started talking to him. The address didn’t come from Oswald and it didn’t come from any of the arresting officers. The Sheriff’s Deputies didn’t learn it until after the police had already arrived at Beckley. If Hosty can be believed, it didn’t come from the FBI. I believe it came from someone associated with military intelligence. ...". (END)

    Dealey Plaza Get away car

    in JFK Assassination Debate

    Posted

    delete did not load

    Do you think it can arranged for the car to be given to the Cyril Wecht center for the study of forensic science and law as a sort-of study project, and give the car a complete, albet belated forensic rundown?

    Bill Kelly

    Its been abandon in Mexico and shot up pretty bad. Its been strip, burned, and left to the dessert. Its about twenty-five miles east of Palomas Mexico (Columbus New Mexico) on the Mexico, New Mexico border about 1/4 mile north of the old Escondido Ranch of Mexico which belongs to drug runners and their compound, which belong to one of the cartels down here. Its a very dangerous place. Its (the car) located about 15 feet inside the Mexico USA border at the new fence marked as mile post #20. I'll try to get the picture of it and post. I was told it was the car used in Dallas, but I do not know that for sure, nor can I confirm that. Last month I was going to talk to a Mexican national, but he came up dead.., his hands cut off and his head in the bed of his truck. Seems he was an informant for the Mexican Army and the Gulf Cartel found out about him. ( ref; U.S Border Patrol and ICE, information:)

    Judyth Vary Baker: Living in Exile

    in JFK Assassination Debate

    Posted

    YouTube: Judyth Vary Baker: Living in Exile

    http://www.youtube.com/user/JamesFetzerNews

    Judyth Vary Baker, with whom I and showothers within the JFK community are in contact, lives in exile due to persecution in the US because of what she knows as a witness concerning Lee Harvey Oswald. The covert operation against Judyth is very serious and takes its toll upon her. She is now 66 years of age and has been forced to live in exile in Europe, where she resides in virtual poverty, even though she is a talented artist who has sold her paintings around the world for more than thirty years. The objective of this campaign appears to be to minimize awareness of her existence as a link to the alleged assassin.

    My Blog: Judyth Vary Baken: Living in Exile

    http://jamesfetzer.blogspot.com/2010...-in-exile.html

    ,

    I have no doubt whatsoever that she met Lee Oswald, worked with him and was his girlfriend. The fact that she had to be discredited and live in hiding works in her favor.

    Not believing her is like insisting that the backyard photos are not fake, and at the same time "believing in conspiracy."

    I am going to start taking a hard line on those with those sitting on the fence.

    You are either with us or against us. It is that simple.

    Well, Count me against you.

    There is nothing that she has to say that leads to any new witnesses or records, nothing she has said that is new or dangerous to anybody, and she is not being persecuted for anything, as the calamidies that have befallen her are of her own making.

    Those who really know something that is dangerous try to keep thier names off the internet, not complain that somebody must be errasing the internet records of her exploits.

    Fraud or no fraud, she doesn't add anything new to what we already know, so why bother with her at all?

    Somebody ought to make a dramatic soap opera of her whole life and then we wouldn't have to watch it.

    If she has something new and different to place on the record, can lead us to one new witness or records we don't know about, I'd like to know who and what it is.

    BK

    Bill: I guess from your POV, that analogy would apply to me also. Right? Its O.K. You can say it on open forum. I am thick skinned.

    Absolutly not.

    Most of your stuff checks out and what doesn't just can't be confirmed. You're bonifide in my book.

    I first heard of you regarding the Kerry Committee, when the former mayor Somers Point, NJ testified about how he had plane loads of cocane flown from South America through Panama, where he had arranged with Noreaga to refuel them without having them checked out by the dogs.

    His name was John McCann, Jr., a Conservative Republican mayor who met Noreaga twice. The second time he delivered a suitcase with cash, and Noreaga showed McCann his - McCann's CIA file, which had been provided to Noreaga by his friends.

    McCann's demise began when one of his planes crashed in Mexico, so McCann and his family disappeared, but he was caught returning to USA at the Canadian border. McCann took the rap for his wife, his wife took off with his lawyer, and he wrote to me from jail that he enjoyed reading my articles about him. He died of cancer in federal prision, but not before testifying before the Kerry Committee

    I understood you testified before the same committee. Are those records available?

    I think the transport link is one of the weakest links in any covert operation, as was the case in Iran-Contra, Watergate, with McCann and the recent Murder on the Dubai Express - see my CIAIR article.

    You better be thick skinned, and testify again about Dealey Plaza, if your're called to.

    Bill Kelly

    Thanks Bill: I did not know you knew all that. Yes I knew John Mc Cann. We both testified to the Kerry Committee. John Winer and Dick Mc Call took my deposition before going behind close doors. John and my testimony, as well as a few others, was classified. The south knoll and the details of that day in Dallas are in that "classified" testimony which is still "sealed top secret" as of today. John was one of the people who helped me get out of Panama, after our DC-3 had been shot up while trying to takeoff from a jungle strip near Panome? (Pan'Na'No'Me)

    When in need, you can bet I'll be there... that is IF.., the Good Lord is willing and the Creek don't rise.... take care. Tosh

    P.S. if the SS, FBI, and CIA had not destroyed the records and worked with us, then the confirmations of my exploits perhaps would be confirmed. However, I'll stick with the preponderance of what evidence (at this late date) seeps to the surface. Call on me if you need me.

    For Tosh

    in JFK Assassination Debate

    Posted

    Tosh, did you ever hear of a Donald O. Norton or meet someone by that name?

    Thanks,

    Kathy C

    The short answer is NO. The long answer: However, I was asked about him some years ago in reference to a place near Marathon Key Florida, "Starlite Cruises", a fishing and boat cruise ran by Chubby Winer of Marathon. (before the hurricane Andrew) Don Norton was a name often used by the INTEL community as a drop name, one of many drop names used in various UC operations of the sixties. Paul Lee was another and Norton and Lee used to work out of the old Lowrey Air Force Base in Denver, Colorado around 1980. Paul Lee was active in the Iran-Contra affair. There was a Don Norton who was a pilot who worked with Chip Tatum and Bill Cooper and Buz Sawer during the early days of the contra resupply network. (Operation Enterprise and Supermarket) I am familiar with some saying Norton was Lee Oswald, but I do not buy that. As I have said Norton is a common name used in black operations of the CIA. At one time I used the name 'Buck Pearson"..., not Buck Parsons of BoP fame, as some have confused me with.

    A shot fired through the front of the windshield- To Barb and Jerry

    in JFK Assassination Debate

    Posted

    "... If you find how I asked Doug for what Ellis told him disrespectful, then you are a very sensitive gorilla (or guerilla?).<g> I agree things have become tangled and deteriorating on several levels. It's not unusual on forums such as this, but unfortunate. I like your donut comment. ..".

    I used to fight guerilla warfare and after retirement I put on a lot of weight, because of those, "donuts".

    ".... Guerrilla warfare is the irregular warfare and combat in which a small group of combatants use mobile military tactics in the form of ambushes and raids. ...". You have a "guerrilla combatant" as well as a Gorilla, in the room. And I am not being disrespectful, nor you.

    I'm thick skinned, believe me.

    I expected your "guerilla" was a personal play on words of sorts. <g>

    And thank you.

    Thick skin is required in these forums. I got high boots and a flak jacket years ago too ... they're not bad, but I hate the helmet. lol

    Bests,

    Barb :-)

    Don't buckle the chin strap... you could loose your head.

    Judyth Vary Baker: Living in Exile

    in JFK Assassination Debate

    Posted

    Count me in with Bill Kelly. After near 12 years of following her saga, being on all the forums wih her as well as reading her rediculous book.....no, I do not believe anything she claims! You just have no idea how many changes her story has made. Even that blog has numerous changes from her previous claims. I could go on and on about her fantasies, but I have already done it so many times through the years, that it is just boring to me now. The only truth that I have been able to find is that she was a good science student and that she did work at Riley Coffee, when LHO also was working there. Sympathy and pity just won't cut it, when you begin to look at her claims both realistically and logically. Plus she wants so much to exonerate LHO....then why did she keep emphasising, in her book, that he was a very good shot (I found it in there five times) and that he pretended to be a poor shot when in the Marines. She also had them both knowing ahead about the JFK Assn. Does anyone actually know anyone that has lived such a chaotic life, as sh eis claiming.....not likely!

    And Tosh....I am not including you in with this af all...a separate issue and separate person!

    Dixie

    Dixie: I understand. There is NO problem. Sometimes we are all hog-tied and thrown into a barrel of smelly fish.

    New Revelations in Kennedy Assassination: ?

    in JFK Assassination Debate

    Posted

    I just received this from a strange unknown e-mail from S/E Asia: I have never seen this before. My question. Does anyone know about this or where it came might have came from? It was dated in 2009 and was said to have been published as a TV news item with CBS.

    "..... New Revelations in Kennedy Assassination: Information over holiday weekend turns an old story in new directions

    Mae Brussell: " … Co-founder of YAF was Douglas Caddy, whose offices were used by the CIA and Howard Hughes organization … "

    http://www.maebrussell.com/Mae%20Brussell%...K%20Assass.html ...".

    Mae Brussell's allegation is plain crazy. I never had an office that was used by the CIA and Howard Hughes. I was sent by my New York employer, General Food Corp., in 1969 to work out of the Mullen Company for a year before General Foods opened up its own lobbying offices in Washington, D.C. My employer kept from me the fact that it and the Mullen Company had enjoyed a longtime working relationship with the CIA. I later concluded that I was unwittingly used by General Foods, Mullen and the CIA to provide cover to their operations. But I never during this period had my own office.

    I helped to found YAF in 1960 with Gov. Charles Edison, William Buckely and Marvin Liebman. The above described General Foods/Mullen Company events took place from 1969-1971. Or is crazy Mae Brussell saying that YAF's office was used in 1960 by the CIA and Howard Hughes? In any event, such a wild, imprecise and stupid allegation by Mae Brussell cast doubt on anything emanating from that source.

    Except that Mae Brussell was the only one suspicous of any of these people at the time.

    She was light years ahead of anybody else.

    BK

    Bill: I see a few things in that article that does not jive with me. I know nothing about Mae Brussell or what her interest are, or how the events are all tied together. I see some information contained in the article as, "sloppy research" perhaps for personal gain or ego gratification... a lot of twisting of facts contained therein.

    New Revelations in Kennedy Assassination: ?

    in JFK Assassination Debate

    Posted

    I just received this from a strange unknown e-mail from S/E Asia: I have never seen this before. My question. Does anyone know about this or where it came might have came from? It was dated in 2009 and was said to have been published as a TV news item with CBS.

    "..... New Revelations in Kennedy Assassination: Information over holiday weekend turns an old story in new directions

    Mae Brussell: ” … Co-founder of YAF was Douglas Caddy, whose offices were used by the CIA and Howard Hughes organization … “

    http://www.maebrussell.com/Mae%20Brussell%...K%20Assass.html ...".

    Mae Brussell's allegation is plain crazy. I never had an office that was used by the CIA and Howard Hughes. I was sent by my New York employer, General Food Corp., in 1969 to work out of the Mullen Company for a year before General Foods opened up its own lobbying offices in Washington, D.C. My employer kept from me the fact that it and the Mullen Company had enjoyed a longtime working relationship with the CIA. I later concluded that I was unwittingly used by General Foods, Mullen and the CIA to provide cover to their operations. But I never during this period had my own office.

    I helped to found YAF in 1960 with Gov. Charles Edison, William Buckely and Marvin Liebman. The above described General Foods/Mullen Company events took place from 1969-1971. Or is crazy Mae Brussell saying that YAF's office was used in 1960 by the CIA and Howard Hughes? In any event, such a wild, imprecise and stupid allegation by Mae Brussell cast doubt on anything emanating from that source.

    Thank you very much. I am inline with you. I too, see a few matters in that article and email, that do not check out from my POV. I think we both know how those things come about.

    New Revelations in Kennedy Assassination: ?

    in JFK Assassination Debate

    Posted

    ” …Mr. Tosh Plumlee just recalls his CIA instructor of 42 years ago as one Bob Bennett. … upon some further digging I saw he was running ‘the Mullen Company’, a CIA front for Howard Hughes.

    Tosh,

    Are two people being confused here? I thought that you said one of the CIA people you reported to on the Dallas abort mission was Benetti or something similar.

    Ron

    Ron: I have always said that the person in West Palm and one of my case officers was a person named Robert pronounced Be'net' tee (phonic spelling) I have never said that it was Robert Bennett, the Senator from Utah. I did spell it that way once or twice, but I always tried to be clear on that and stated the pronounced way I knew it. (BEN NET TEE) Also Tracy Barns was also there that day and that part is right as well as Rex Breadsley and Larry Allen as found on the 1981 FOIA documents from Barnard Finsterwald Jr, in reference to a gun running affair in 1958 in Ohio. As to how it got into the record as my statement? I have to ask again. What do some people really want the record to say?

    A shot fired through the front of the windshield- To Barb and Jerry

    in JFK Assassination Debate

    Posted

    Doug,

    Where did Stavis Ellis tell you the hole he saw in the windshield was located? Specifically.

    Thanks,

    Barb :-)

    WELL ITS WORKING.... OFF WE GO INTO THE WILD BLUE YONDER.... AND WE"LL NEVER KNOW A DAMN THING ABOUT A HOLE OR NO HOLE IN A WINDSHIELD. ITS PREDICTABLE. NOW PEOPLE WILL LOOSE INTEREST AND WILL LEAVE THE THREAD AND GO TO OTHER MATTERS AND LET YOU PEOPLE SLUG IT OUT. ... BEEN THERE BEFORE..... :)

    Uhhhh.... the witnesses, like Ellis specifically, are one of the issues Doug has with our article and has asked to have addressed. It very much goes to whether or not there was a hole in the windshield. No one is slugging. Doug mentions Ellis constantly but has given no specifics. Seems like a good idea to me to know just what Ellis told Doug to better be able to address the criticism he has made and asked to have addressed about our treatment of these witnesses in our article. That was his purpose for starting the thread. Geesh. :-)

    Bests,

    Barb :-)

    I understand. But, with all due respect; after twenty plus pages on a tight thread, what do we really know at this point? I don't mean to be disrespectful but its the professional tone which I see deteriorating. BUT! What do I know? I'M just a eight hundred pond guerilla in the room.

    It seems to me that the framework of the debate is faulty, and that the debacle we are seeing is the consequence of that fact.

    Each side pushes whether or not there were a t&t hole in the windshield. As we have been given so-called *evidence* that has been suppressed, altered, dribbled out in little bits, and who knows what else, what if we were to acknowledge the possibility that we do not have everything we need to come to an either-or-conclusion at this time?

    Something happened, something odd or unusual occurred to the primary crime scene, the limo, and all the PH witnesses' statements attest to that. They spoke about what they thought they saw. They spoke honestly. They spoke with conviction. They might have been mistaken, they might have been told by someone on the scene (for some reason) that there was a 'hole' and they rushed to see for themselves. The damage may have been caused by something else -- gore and brain tissue on the windshield reflecting light, for example. Or they might have been right, but got the location wrong because things moved so quickly and the limo was covered and whisked away from PH soon after 1 p.m. Weldon imo correctly promotes the value of these witnesses, but does them an injustice by trying to change what they said in order to fit into his narrow theory.

    There also may have been real windshield damage not to the JFK limo, but to the follow-up car, QMII, for whom there is no documented evidence available even though it was transported back to AAFB and the WHG with SS-100-X and sequestered there with it.

    So, difficult as this is for the Weldon camp, perhaps we need to continue to look for additional information. What if we were to acknowledge the two camps and simply discuss which position we find more persuasive at this time? What if we were not to fight over a conclusion, but continue on the path of research on this issue, acknowledging the existing statements and leaving them unchanged?

    "... There also may have been real windshield damage not to the JFK limo, but to the follow-up car, QMII, for whom there is no documented evidence available even though it was transported back to AAFB and the WHG with SS-100-X and sequestered there with it. ..".

    This came up some years ago in one of the panels, chaired by Congressman Thomas N. Downing before the HSCA was formed. (1974) I was asked about the shots and could one of them have hit another car in the rear, behind the Limo. I told them (staff) I would have no way of knowing. Nothing was said to me at that time about a windshield hole in the Limo. They were thinking in terms of a missed shot.

    Judyth Vary Baker: Living in Exile

    in JFK Assassination Debate

    Posted

    YouTube: Judyth Vary Baker: Living in Exile

    http://www.youtube.com/user/JamesFetzerNews

    Judyth Vary Baker, with whom I and showothers within the JFK community are in contact, lives in exile due to persecution in the US because of what she knows as a witness concerning Lee Harvey Oswald. The covert operation against Judyth is very serious and takes its toll upon her. She is now 66 years of age and has been forced to live in exile in Europe, where she resides in virtual poverty, even though she is a talented artist who has sold her paintings around the world for more than thirty years. The objective of this campaign appears to be to minimize awareness of her existence as a link to the alleged assassin.

    My Blog: Judyth Vary Baken: Living in Exile

    http://jamesfetzer.blogspot.com/2010...-in-exile.html

    ,

    I have no doubt whatsoever that she met Lee Oswald, worked with him and was his girlfriend. The fact that she had to be discredited and live in hiding works in her favor.

    Not believing her is like insisting that the backyard photos are not fake, and at the same time "believing in conspiracy."

    I am going to start taking a hard line on those with those sitting on the fence.

    You are either with us or against us. It is that simple.

    Well, Count me against you.

    There is nothing that she has to say that leads to any new witnesses or records, nothing she has said that is new or dangerous to anybody, and she is not being persecuted for anything, as the calamidies that have befallen her are of her own making.

    Those who really know something that is dangerous try to keep thier names off the internet, not complain that somebody must be errasing the internet records of her exploits.

    Fraud or no fraud, she doesn't add anything new to what we already know, so why bother with her at all?

    Somebody ought to make a dramatic soap opera of her whole life and then we wouldn't have to watch it.

    If she has something new and different to place on the record, can lead us to one new witness or records we don't know about, I'd like to know who and what it is.

    BK

    Bill: I guess from your POV, that analogy would apply to me also. Right? Its O.K. You can say it on open forum. I am thick skinned.

    A shot fired through the front of the windshield- To Barb and Jerry

    in JFK Assassination Debate

    Posted · Edited by William Plumlee

    Doug,

    Where did Stavis Ellis tell you the hole he saw in the windshield was located? Specifically.

    Thanks,

    Barb :-)

    WELL ITS WORKING.... OFF WE GO INTO THE WILD BLUE YONDER.... AND WE"LL NEVER KNOW A DAMN THING ABOUT A HOLE OR NO HOLE IN A WINDSHIELD. ITS PREDICTABLE. NOW PEOPLE WILL LOOSE INTEREST AND WILL LEAVE THE THREAD AND GO TO OTHER MATTERS AND LET YOU PEOPLE SLUG IT OUT. ... BEEN THERE BEFORE..... :)

    Uhhhh.... the witnesses, like Ellis specifically, are one of the issues Doug has with our article and has asked to have addressed. It very much goes to whether or not there was a hole in the windshield. No one is slugging. Doug mentions Ellis constantly but has given no specifics. Seems like a good idea to me to know just what Ellis told Doug to better be able to address the criticism he has made and asked to have addressed about our treatment of these witnesses in our article. That was his purpose for starting the thread. Geesh. :-)

    Bests,

    Barb :-)

    I understand. But, with all due respect; after twenty plus pages on a tight thread, what do we really know at this point? I don't mean to be disrespectful but its the professional tone which I see deteriorating. BUT! What do I know? I'M just a eight hundred pond guerilla in the room.

    If you find how I asked Doug for what Ellis told him disrespectful, then you are a very sensitive gorilla (or guerilla?).<g> I agree things have become tangled and deteriorating on several levels. It's not unusual on forums such as this, but unfortunate. I like your donut comment.

    Bests,

    Barb :-)

    "... If you find how I asked Doug for what Ellis told him disrespectful, then you are a very sensitive gorilla (or guerilla?).<g> I agree things have become tangled and deteriorating on several levels. It's not unusual on forums such as this, but unfortunate. I like your donut comment. ..".

    I used to fight guerilla warfare and after retirement I put on a lot of weight, because of those, "donuts".

    ".... Guerrilla warfare is the irregular warfare and combat in which a small group of combatants use mobile military tactics in the form of ambushes and raids. ...". You have a "guerrilla combatant" as well as a Gorilla, in the room. And I am not being disrespectful, nor you.

    I'm thick skinned, believe me.

    Secret Service Destroys Records

    in JFK Assassination Debate

    Posted · Edited by William Plumlee

    Actually,what I was implying is that the ARRB was going up against one of the best pitchers in baseball who happens to hold the all-time record with 110 shut outs.

    Hard to win.

    No, it's more like the ARRB brought a knife to a gun fight.

    BK

    Bill: It sure as hell destroyed the ability of some damn good researchers to confirm various matters of information they had received from many operatives over a long period of time. That to me is the most unforgiving aspects of the act. The recorded events, as we know them today, are based upon a series of false and misleading information, inserted into the record because of those destroyed documents. History is written by those in power and their special interest cronies, and has nothing to do with truth. Its a shame we take our truths from books and media reports written by them; and we hoard and covet the documents placed by them and then, in time, we record them as FACTS.

    A shot fired through the front of the windshield- To Barb and Jerry

    in JFK Assassination Debate

    Posted

    Doug,

    Where did Stavis Ellis tell you the hole he saw in the windshield was located? Specifically.

    Thanks,

    Barb :-)

    WELL ITS WORKING.... OFF WE GO INTO THE WILD BLUE YONDER.... AND WE"LL NEVER KNOW A DAMN THING ABOUT A HOLE OR NO HOLE IN A WINDSHIELD. ITS PREDICTABLE. NOW PEOPLE WILL LOOSE INTEREST AND WILL LEAVE THE THREAD AND GO TO OTHER MATTERS AND LET YOU PEOPLE SLUG IT OUT. ... BEEN THERE BEFORE..... :)

    Uhhhh.... the witnesses, like Ellis specifically, are one of the issues Doug has with our article and has asked to have addressed. It very much goes to whether or not there was a hole in the windshield. No one is slugging. Doug mentions Ellis constantly but has given no specifics. Seems like a good idea to me to know just what Ellis told Doug to better be able to address the criticism he has made and asked to have addressed about our treatment of these witnesses in our article. That was his purpose for starting the thread. Geesh. :-)

    Bests,

    Barb :-)

    I understand. But, with all due respect; after twenty plus pages on a tight thread, what do we really know at this point? I don't mean to be disrespectful but its the professional tone which I see deteriorating. BUT! What do I know? I'M just a eight hundred pond guerilla in the room.

    A shot fired through the front of the windshield- To Barb and Jerry

    in JFK Assassination Debate

    Posted

    Doug,

    Where did Stavis Ellis tell you the hole he saw in the windshield was located? Specifically.

    Thanks,

    Barb :-)

    Thompson's opportunistic response to utilize this exchange as something improper is ridiculous. I did not expect this from someone engaging in an intelligent conversation.

    As Barb put it: “No, you did not suggest a location to him. And I did not say you did. But you did more than ask him if he could be mistaken. First you informed him that you had spoken to other witnesses who had placed the hole they saw in a different location. You, in effect, put him on notice that he had it wrong. Then you asked him if he might have been mistaken. It's not a subtle point.”

    If you want to get an accurate picture of what a witness recalls, you don’t tell the witness first what another witness recalled. That’s the one thing you don’t do. Having done this, the answer doesn’t matter since all you’ve done is underline your own willingness to contaminate the memory of the witness. That is also why it’s kind of dumb.

    Josiah Thompson

    Weldon may even acknowledge (he has in the past) attempting to *coach* PH witness Stavis Ellis to change the location of the hole Stavis believed he saw to *fit better* into Weldon's scenario. Weldon has an advantage in getting witnesses to do things, too, as he was once a prosecutor.

    Thanks for using the right word, Pamela. Of course, it's improper to "coach" a witness. Prosecutors do this all the time and get away with it. They use the excuse Weldon used... they were simply trying to "clarify" a witness's report. "Clarify" my fanny. There is never any excuse for telling one percipient witness what another percipient witness said. If a defense investigator tried it, he/she would be looking at an obstruction of justice charge.

    The problem apparent here is endemic in this case. If you get folks who are zealously pursuing a particular theory, when they start interviewing witnesses all sorts "coaching" begins to happen. The result is that witnesses who may have had something of probative significance to add end up being contaminated and therefore worthless.

    What happened with respect to Stavis Ellis?

    Josiah Thompson

    Josiah :

    Thanks for your inquiry In order to get appropriate answers to fit my predetermined agenda, whenever I was able to do so, I found it advantageous to interview witnesses under gunpoint. There were occasional problems such as with Ellis who lived in Texas and my living in Michigan, Nick living in Florida, or Glanges living in Texas. In cases such as that I would try to hold a family member hostage and would bug their phones and intercept their mail to ensure they would not talk with anyone without my prior approval and careful monitoring of what they said. It may appear to have been extreme in retrospect but it was highly effective. In other instances it was amazing how these career police oficers and professionals could so easily be hynotized and say or do anything I asked. I see your article was a total joint effort and you acknowledge your part in the writing of the article. Perhaps you can respond to some of my criticisms and why you see police officers as "casual observers" or totally ignored Whitaker. Thank you in advance.

    Doug Weldon

    WELL ITS WORKING.... OFF WE GO INTO THE WILD BLUE YONDER.... AND WE"LL NEVER KNOW A DAMN THING ABOUT A HOLE OR NO HOLE IN A WINDSHIELD. ITS PREDICTABLE. NOW PEOPLE WILL LOOSE INTEREST AND WILL LEAVE THE THREAD AND GO TO OTHER MATTERS AND LET YOU PEOPLE SLUG IT OUT. ... BEEN THERE BEFORE..... :D

    New Revelations in Kennedy Assassination: ?

    in JFK Assassination Debate

    Posted

    I just received this from a strange unknown e-mail from S/E Asia: I have never seen this before. My question. Does anyone know about this or where it came might have came from? It was dated in 2009 and was said to have been published as a TV news item with CBS.

    "..... New Revelations in Kennedy Assassination: Information over holiday weekend turns an old story in new directions

    Florida Insider

    November 24, 2007 — A new report from a Chicago ABC affiliate and several other developments has shifted theories concerning the assassination of former President John F. Kennedy in new directions. …

    Kennedy was to travel by motorcade to a college football game at Chicago’s Soldier Field. The president’s trip was cancelled at the last minute, apparently for security reasons, although the public was told he had a cold.The man arrested, Thomas Vallee, like Lee Harvey Oswald, was an ex-Marine with expertise as a marksman. Pictures of the two men even looked somewhat alike. What made this report more interesting was the former agent’s revelation that the FBI received a tip from a hotel manager at roughly the same time that a group of Cuban nationals, staying at the Chicago hotel, had high powered rifles with telescopic lenses and a publicly published copy of the route the Kennedy motorcade was to take, in their room. The report implies that the route would have passed the hotel where the Cubans were staying.

    The evidence, according to Bolden, was seized; the Cuban nationals fled and were never found. The hotel room, according to the former agent, was never dusted for fingerprints and the case file was lost. Bolden said that none of the information about Vallee or the Cubans was forwarded to federal officials in Dallas prior to Kennedy’s visit there just twenty days later.

    More disturbing was the fact that Bolden, a black man who had been hand picked by Kennedy to serve in a prestigious and virtually all-white profession, apparently attempted to give the information to members of the Warren Commission formed to investigate the Kennedy assassination. Not only, according to Bolden, did they refuse to take the information, he was at about the same time accused of soliciting a bribe from a counterfeiter and sent to jail for six years. According to the interview, conducted by the ABC affiliate in Chicago, Bolden contends that this was a set-up to silence him. …

    http://www.southernpoliticalreport.com/sto...nk_1124_47.aspx

    Re Mullen & Associates

    ” … Robert R. Mullen and Company, a firm that had long provided cover for active CIA agents throughout the world and had actively been involved in Bay of Pigs operations. The owner of the firm, Robert Bennett, in addition to his CIA ties, was the Washington representative of Howard Hughes having

    taken over that job from Larry O’Brien, the Democratic National Chairman, the target of the Watergate break-in. … ” (From: “Hollywoodstein: Coverup That Worked,” May 13, 1976, EAST SIDE EXPRESS, by John C. Klotz)

    http://www.walrus.com/~jklotz/watergat.htm

    ** The Hughes Connection

    ” …Mr. Tosh Plumlee just recalls his CIA instructor of 42 years ago as one Bob Bennett. … upon some further digging I saw he was running ‘the Mullen Company’, a CIA front for Howard Hughes. We should also know that Robert Maheu, who worked for Howard Hughes, introduced the CIA to Johnny Roselli to enlist the help of the mafia in the now declassified CIA/Mafia plots to kill Fidel Castro. … “

    http://www.jfkmurdersolved.com/bennett.htm

    Mae Brussell: ” … Co-founder of YAF was Douglas Caddy, whose offices were used by the CIA and Howard Hughes organization … “

    http://www.maebrussell.com/Mae%20Brussell%...K%20Assass.html ...".

    South Knoll Shooter

    in JFK Assassination Debate

    Posted · Edited by William Plumlee

    I must agree, your information re the south side shot imo is entirely a different subject in it's own in the area of tosh and his observations in being there that day etc.but are ..two separate fields but similar and relating to each other in a very important way... and we need it to come together but not if tosh leaves though he has always been very open and wanting such looked into and released so it could have been time for the researchers to have had both side in otherwards but not if his bag has been packed, imo tosh i cannot understand your doing so, in the past i have broken a thread with other info and have been asked the same to start a new thread, and have done so, so have many others so you could also. it's no big deal....if you do want all out there so it can possibley be worked on and connected..sorry to repeat myself but this kind of thing cheeses me off and it shows as a rule...take care all i shall too...best b..

    a couple of others b..the second one if from tosh's approximate area...of view ...

    See also the DCM thread for more information on the south knoll photo as well as Feb 18 2010, 10:41 PM

    Post #16 south knoll shooters; picture #5

    Dark complected man

    in JFK Assassination Debate

    Posted · Edited by William Plumlee

    Why would DCM wave with his arm stretched up to the max? Wouldn't it be more natural to wave with your arm extended forward, rather than all the way up? To me it looks more like a signal for something than an innocent wave.[/b]

    [/quote

    ______________________________________

    Antti,

    I ask myself the same question regarding not only the way DCM held his arm in the air right after JFK started clutching his throat, but why he lifted his arm into the air at all if he was indeed the Cuban "Gator" who, along with others, was flown in to Dallas as part of an "assassination abort team." Was he signaling "The Boss Has Been Hit" to other members of the "abort team?" Hopefully, Tosh will weigh in on this detail and clarify it for us.

    --Thomas

    Thanks Thomas for bringing an old thread to life. I think the DCM thread of long ago (2006) should be incorporated into the South knoll shooting threads. I have inserted one of my post from then, below. Sometimes when threads get pulled away from the original subject matter, valid information gets confused with the facts and statements are lost within speculations. Such is the case with previous postings and the South Knoll shooter of today.

    In answer to your question: "... Was he signaling "The Boss Has Been Hit" to other members of the "abort team?" ...".

    As you know we had radios that did not work and for all I know an alternate plan of communications between team members could have been in place and that is why all the strange waving etc. That too, is speculations. Perhaps we will never know. That is why some years ago I asked everybody who was anybody in reference to the assassination to see if they could tell if this man had fingers missing and that would go a long way in proving if that man was indeed Gator. As you can see that request went nowhere or never reached any kind of conclusion.

    ( I would like to clear one point: There was an argument about side arms. I said we had side arms. I was told that the bulge in DCM's clothing was a gun. I said no it was not a gun, but perhaps a radio. It was not meant that we did not have guns or side arms... the subject matter was about the bulge in the photo of which I said was perhaps a radio. We always carried side arms when we went on any UC mission, flying or otherwise.)

    If any one cares to go back and read the past DCM post, of which you have brought forward, and I thank you for that, then I think they will help the new breed of researchers, which have came on the scene this past few years, to reach an educated guess as to what it all means .

    FROM 2006 POSTINGS:

    "...

    I can not find where I mentioned communications that we had, but from what I can remember I first told Senator Church's investigators in Phoenix Arizona, that we had 'Walkie Talkies" for communication with people on the north side of the plaza and communications were spotty at best. ( we had to keep pointing and facing toward the direction to receive and transmitt ) People were not where they were suppose to be and everything was all f'ed as to timing. I again told and Id theis fellow to those investigators and to Peter Lemkin and Jim Marrs in San Dieago and Texas in 1990.

    We had communications and I think they were Motorola (new top of the line, small about 8" or 10"x 2" with telescoping ant.) Some of the team also carried side arms. (38 holstered, side arm shoulder mounted) I have ID this man as "Gator" and we have tried to see if he has fingers missing on one hand (not sure if it was left or right; can't remember, but I think right) I have always said he was part of the abort team, but everyone wants him to be a Cuban assassin. If there were Cubans and CIA higher up there that day, then could they have been there to help Stop the assassination? I know this is not popular, but I speculate; like others speculate. We all left the area very quitely and slowly after we had failed in the attempt to stop the assassination.

    I could spend years answering these questions, and have... but they are always trying to convience me that I flew in the attack team or a mixture of both. I have always said "Could Be.. BUT. I NOT NOT BELIEVE THAT". AND from there we go to speculation and I am not allowed to voice what I believe even tho I was there. This Radio issue has been brought up every few years. Yes there was comunication devises used between personal in the Plaza that day. Its in my sworn testimony to the Senate and to researchers ITS THERE TO SEE in the photo's. However, keep in mind before these photos were released I was saying to the authorites that WE DID HAVE RADIOS and Side ARMS. AND I KNEW THIS MAN AS "GATOR" (1964; 1974' 1978; 1990; 1997; 2003; and NOW. What does it take?

    Some ask this and then say I am lying. Again. THE MANS REAL NAME I DO NOT KNOW. HE WAS CALLED "GATOR". Anyone in military OPS used phoney names and never their real names while attatched to any operation and numbers when writen in reports. I had known him and of him before Dallas. He is NOT who everyone wants him to be.... TAKE IT OR LEAVE IT. In the past some have decided, with NO evidence, to LEAVE it and continue to miss lead as they SPECULATE and sensationalize as to who this person is and what he is holding. secretly, ITS A DAMN RADIO. Sorry to bust a few bubbles. But that is the way it is. ...".

    This post has been edited by William Plumlee: Oct 6 2006, 09:20 PM

    Here is another old post:

    "... QUOTE (Jack White @ Oct 4 2006, 03:35 AM)

    Was the Cuban packing a sidearm? Look at the shape of the bulge.

    Jack

    That is, without a doubt, the best view of DCM I've seen to-date. Thank you.

    I'm not sure it is a sidearm, but it could answer (quite easily) the question I had which was: "if he's using a radio in the other photographs, where did it go?" Walkie-Talkies from that era were substantially larger than today's, and were not as easy to conceal. If one was pocketed or belt-clipped under the jacket, it could very easily look like this.

    No question, though, there is something under that jacket (other than the DCM himself)! ...".

    Notice how there is "no focus" on any subject as well as "photos".

    From the old 2006 DCM thread

    "... Jack. Perhaps you know. Did Life Magazine publish that picture? If so what date? I am not aware that Life Magazine published that particular Cancellare photo shortly after the assassination. What publication in Life did it appear and when? If there was a cover up and pictures were doctored by Life, as some have claimed over the years, then it seems to me to be very important that two people on the south knoll photographed would have to be removed or brushed out if they were operational and too if shoots were fired around that south location. Could you provide information to support your statement, "Many are not altered,

    like Cancellare...". How do we know this? Have you done extensive work on this photo and that particular location in the past? I was told you had NOT done work on that Photo or that location. Tom Wilson, I was told did do work on that photo and told many the photo had been tampered with and he found two people at that location as well as a possible third person in the south parking lot. Tom is now dead but his signed statements live on.

    This is not meant to challenge you. I ask you some years ago if you would do work on that photo for me. Remember? Did you do any work on that photo? I think Jim Marrs was there in your office when we asked if you would do the work. Its been awhile. Do you have any results of the work you did on that photo, if any? If you did not, then how can you say the above. I think and always have that this is a very important photo for true researchers. If it proves that people have been brushed out... my point is made. If it proves nothing was there 30 seconds after the fatal shot then it proves we were not at that location at the time of the picture. It does not prove I am lying. Again I thank you for all your fine work, but I would like to know about this picture and ITS Negatives chain of custody. Thanks Tosh..".

    To this date, 2010, question about the south knoll photo has never been resolved. The thread died a slow agonizing death, lost in speculations and total confusion with no subject matter or focus.. Tosh

    Hi, Tosh. Tom Wilson was unheard of, as I recall, when you and Jim visited my office. Tom surfaced when Oliver Stone hired him

    about 1990. I do not recall Jim, you and I discussing the Cancellare picture.

    I did not have a good copy of Cancellare until Peter Lemkin let me copy a print he purchased from Life. It was you and Peter

    who discussed Cancellare. Peter asked me to "enhance" it photographically, and I did all within my capabilities to bring out

    anyone on the south knoll using darkroom techniques. I told Peter I could find nothing. Peter then prevailed on me to ask

    Tom what he could do, since by that time I had become acquainted with Tom. Tom reluctantly did so as a favor to me, but

    became irritated with Peter because Peter was pushing him, so basically a rift developed between Peter and Tom. Later

    Peter did get some information from Tom that he had found two figures in shadows, but did not furnish Peter any copies,

    and in fact would not return Peter's Cancellare print, because he wanted to use it in his lawsuit against the government.

    Peter can confirm all the above. To be clear, you did not ask me to work on the photo. Peter did, and I did, without results.

    There is nothing to show, because MY results showed nothing. All of my dealings regarding Cancellare were with Peter,

    so perhaps you are confusing talking to Peter with talking to me.

    That is about all that I know about the Cancellare photo. Most of what I know came from Peter.

    Jack

    On minor correction. I did not purchase the contact print from Life. I forget the name of the photo agency [in storage in USA] then connected to parent company of Life. This agency refused to give me a contact print from the original. They said they could provide me a 'standard' copy, they send anyone. It would be cropped and multi generations removed from the original [and who knows what else]. I worked on this for a year and finally found a sympathetic person inside the organization willing to break the rules and risk their job. They charged me the standard fee [for the standard photo [which they had prepared in advance] BUT did me/us the favor of taking the original large format negative and making a contact print for me and sending it; mailing it not from the organization, but from another location. It is not easy to get what the keepers of the Big Lie do not want known or seen. 

    Jack is correct to having worked hard, but reporting to me that he could discern nothing he could make a definitive comment upon. He said he thought the apparent legs seen were the inverted shadow of the crotch of the tree. Tom later confirmed that and found two figures deep in the shadow of the tree - nothing to do with the light and dark patterns that can be seen by the naked eye in the photo. 

    I still have more about the photo from Tom and am working to get yet more. This is delicate work and pardon me for not involving you - you, after all, did try to stop me doing so [or complicating matters] with Walt Brown. A certain level of trust and a lot of patience is needed in this field. 

    Quote: "...Jack is correct to having worked hard, but reporting to me that he could discern nothing he could make a definitive comment upon. He said he thought the apparent legs seen were the inverted shadow of the crotch of the tree. Tom later confirmed that and found two figures deep in the shadow of the tree - nothing to do with the light and dark patterns that can be seen by the naked eye in the photo. ...".

    Pete I am not going into a long debate about the south knoll photo. However, the record must be cleared. I was the one who told you and Jim about the fork in the tree and that it was not the legs of a person. (1990) (.. this can be confirmed todat by looking at the photo that Bernice posted the other day, which was given to Barnard Finisterwald someyears ago. I drew that picture for Barnard Finisterwald Jr. in 1981 and drew another for Gary Shaw in 1979. AND I drew another one for the HSCA and previous old Church Committee around 1974 or 75. The FBI also had a drawn picture, by me, of where I said Sergio and I were standing and that was drawn at Buna Vista, Colorado in 1964.

    The above quote again leaves a sour taste in my mouth as to the facts behind that damn Cancellare photo. Why didn't you tell Jack at the time that I had said the alleged legs seen in the photo were not legs, but the shadow of the tree fork. I had went over that with you many times before I ever knew of Jack White, or Tom Wilson. I said and have always said that we were hidden in the shadows and if we could find a good photo or negative of that area then perhaps we could prove it. I referenced Gary Shaw's book COVER-UP copyrighted 1976; page 126 and pointed out the picture in question as an example of an area that needed further work and investigation and said that it would go a long way in proving, "conspiracy".

    This is but one of many examples of how facts become interwoven with someone else's preconceive ideas and speculations of how they want. things to be or not to be. Later, the tree fork shadow was used to discredit me because it was said that I said the fork shadow was the legs of a person. I never said that. But the damage had been done.... the jury had returned their verdict and the matter went nowhere.

    As to me stopping Walt from releasing my personal detailed family information to the research community, and to you... well I told you. "... I was not going to see my family's information spread around and thrown out there into the public domain for all to speculate on, as to what it really meant in reference to JFK and the TEXAS CLAN. I was not going to let it be twisted around to fit into someone's preconceived ideas about JFK and bring my family into that mess. Jay Harrison was a close friend long before I met you. I told Walt ,..NOT to release my information that Jay Harrison had obtained on me from me and others to anyone. It was not personally meant to be against you. However, by your tone I think you took it that way. Anyway, enough of this. You mentioned trust. Well I have waited over 15 years for you and Tom Wilson to get it together... but both of you were so damn secret and paranoid with your information, that nothing came of the south knoll photo findings. So if you are going to quote and slant, then get it right. I still see you as a friend and working colleague, although at times I have referenced you as my, "Radical Friend". I do not care about the photo, or if you ever get the confirmations or info from anyone.

    Why do you think after all these years, that that photo has been such an embarrassment to the Federal Government? Why has it been locked away and the facts thereof sealed? Why has the details behind its existence been keep from the research community for all these years? Care to address that question ? Best to you my friend. Tosh

    SEE POST #16 in SOUTH KNOLL SHOOTER THREAD: Feb 18 2010, 10:41 PM

    Post #16

    http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/uploads/...-1266558461.jpg

    Dark complected man

    in JFK Assassination Debate

    Posted

    Why would DCM wave with his arm stretched up to the max? Wouldn't it be more natural to wave with your arm extended forward, rather than all the way up? To me it looks more like a signal for something than an innocent wave.[/b]

    [/quote

    ______________________________________

    Antti,

    I ask myself the same question regarding not only the way DCM held his arm in the air right after JFK started clutching his throat, but why he lifted his arm into the air at all if he was indeed the Cuban "Gator" who, along with others, was flown in to Dallas as part of an "assassination abort team." Was he signaling "The Boss Has Been Hit" to other members of the "abort team?" Hopefully, Tosh will weigh in on this detail and clarify it for us.

    --Thomas

    Thanks Thomas for bringing an old thread to life. I think the DCM thread of long ago (2006) should be incorporated into the South knoll shooting threads. I have inserted one of my post from then, below. Sometimes when threads get pulled away from the original subject matter, valid information gets confused with the facts and statements are lost within speculations. Such is the case with previous postings and the South Knoll shooter of today.

    In answer to your question: "... Was he signaling "The Boss Has Been Hit" to other members of the "abort team?" ...".

    As you know we had radios that did not work and for all I know an alternate plan of communications between team members could have been in place and that is why all the strange waving etc. That too, is speculations. Perhaps we will never know. That is why some years ago I asked everybody who was anybody in reference to the assassination to see if they could tell if this man had fingers missing and that would go a long way in proving if that man was indeed Gator. As you can see that request went nowhere or never reached any kind of conclusion.

    ( I would like to clear one point: There was an argument about side arms. I said we had side arms. I was told that the bulge in DCM's clothing was a gun. I said no it was not a gun, but perhaps a radio. It was not meant that we did not have guns or side arms... the subject matter was about the bulge in the photo of which I said was perhaps a radio. We always carried side arms when we went on any UC mission, flying or otherwise.)

    If any one cares to go back and read the past DCM post, of which you have brought forward, and I thank you for that, then I think they will help the new breed of researchers, which have came on the scene this past few years, to reach an educated guess as to what it all means .

    FROM 2006 POSTINGS:

    "...

    I can not find where I mentioned communications that we had, but from what I can remember I first told Senator Church's investigators in Phoenix Arizona, that we had 'Walkie Talkies" for communication with people on the north side of the plaza and communications were spotty at best. ( we had to keep pointing and facing toward the direction to receive and transmitt ) People were not where they were suppose to be and everything was all f'ed as to timing. I again told and Id theis fellow to those investigators and to Peter Lemkin and Jim Marrs in San Dieago and Texas in 1990.

    We had communications and I think they were Motorola (new top of the line, small about 8" or 10"x 2" with telescoping ant.) Some of the team also carried side arms. (38 holstered, side arm shoulder mounted) I have ID this man as "Gator" and we have tried to see if he has fingers missing on one hand (not sure if it was left or right; can't remember, but I think right) I have always said he was part of the abort team, but everyone wants him to be a Cuban assassin. If there were Cubans and CIA higher up there that day, then could they have been there to help Stop the assassination? I know this is not popular, but I speculate; like others speculate. We all left the area very quitely and slowly after we had failed in the attempt to stop the assassination.

    I could spend years answering these questions, and have... but they are always trying to convience me that I flew in the attack team or a mixture of both. I have always said "Could Be.. BUT. I NOT NOT BELIEVE THAT". AND from there we go to speculation and I am not allowed to voice what I believe even tho I was there. This Radio issue has been brought up every few years. Yes there was comunication devises used between personal in the Plaza that day. Its in my sworn testimony to the Senate and to researchers ITS THERE TO SEE in the photo's. However, keep in mind before these photos were released I was saying to the authorites that WE DID HAVE RADIOS and Side ARMS. AND I KNEW THIS MAN AS "GATOR" (1964; 1974' 1978; 1990; 1997; 2003; and NOW. What does it take?

    Some ask this and then say I am lying. Again. THE MANS REAL NAME I DO NOT KNOW. HE WAS CALLED "GATOR". Anyone in military OPS used phoney names and never their real names while attatched to any operation and numbers when writen in reports. I had known him and of him before Dallas. He is NOT who everyone wants him to be.... TAKE IT OR LEAVE IT. In the past some have decided, with NO evidence, to LEAVE it and continue to miss lead as they SPECULATE and sensationalize as to who this person is and what he is holding. secretly, ITS A DAMN RADIO. Sorry to bust a few bubbles. But that is the way it is. ...".

    This post has been edited by William Plumlee: Oct 6 2006, 09:20 PM

    Here is another old post:

    "... QUOTE (Jack White @ Oct 4 2006, 03:35 AM)

    Was the Cuban packing a sidearm? Look at the shape of the bulge.

    Jack

    That is, without a doubt, the best view of DCM I've seen to-date. Thank you.

    I'm not sure it is a sidearm, but it could answer (quite easily) the question I had which was: "if he's using a radio in the other photographs, where did it go?" Walkie-Talkies from that era were substantially larger than today's, and were not as easy to conceal. If one was pocketed or belt-clipped under the jacket, it could very easily look like this.

    No question, though, there is something under that jacket (other than the DCM himself)! ...".

    Notice how there is "no focus" on any subject as well as "photos".

    From the old 2006 DCM thread

    "... Jack. Perhaps you know. Did Life Magazine publish that picture? If so what date? I am not aware that Life Magazine published that particular Cancellare photo shortly after the assassination. What publication in Life did it appear and when? If there was a cover up and pictures were doctored by Life, as some have claimed over the years, then it seems to me to be very important that two people on the south knoll photographed would have to be removed or brushed out if they were operational and too if shoots were fired around that south location. Could you provide information to support your statement, "Many are not altered,

    like Cancellare...". How do we know this? Have you done extensive work on this photo and that particular location in the past? I was told you had NOT done work on that Photo or that location. Tom Wilson, I was told did do work on that photo and told many the photo had been tampered with and he found two people at that location as well as a possible third person in the south parking lot. Tom is now dead but his signed statements live on.

    This is not meant to challenge you. I ask you some years ago if you would do work on that photo for me. Remember? Did you do any work on that photo? I think Jim Marrs was there in your office when we asked if you would do the work. Its been awhile. Do you have any results of the work you did on that photo, if any? If you did not, then how can you say the above. I think and always have that this is a very important photo for true researchers. If it proves that people have been brushed out... my point is made. If it proves nothing was there 30 seconds after the fatal shot then it proves we were not at that location at the time of the picture. It does not prove I am lying. Again I thank you for all your fine work, but I would like to know about this picture and ITS Negatives chain of custody. Thanks Tosh..".

    To this date, 2010, question about the south knoll photo has never been resolved. The thread died a slow agonizing death, lost in speculations and total confusion with no subject matter or focus.. Tosh

    Hi, Tosh. Tom Wilson was unheard of, as I recall, when you and Jim visited my office. Tom surfaced when Oliver Stone hired him

    about 1990. I do not recall Jim, you and I discussing the Cancellare picture.

    I did not have a good copy of Cancellare until Peter Lemkin let me copy a print he purchased from Life. It was you and Peter

    who discussed Cancellare. Peter asked me to "enhance" it photographically, and I did all within my capabilities to bring out

    anyone on the south knoll using darkroom techniques. I told Peter I could find nothing. Peter then prevailed on me to ask

    Tom what he could do, since by that time I had become acquainted with Tom. Tom reluctantly did so as a favor to me, but

    became irritated with Peter because Peter was pushing him, so basically a rift developed between Peter and Tom. Later

    Peter did get some information from Tom that he had found two figures in shadows, but did not furnish Peter any copies,

    and in fact would not return Peter's Cancellare print, because he wanted to use it in his lawsuit against the government.

    Peter can confirm all the above. To be clear, you did not ask me to work on the photo. Peter did, and I did, without results.

    There is nothing to show, because MY results showed nothing. All of my dealings regarding Cancellare were with Peter,

    so perhaps you are confusing talking to Peter with talking to me.

    That is about all that I know about the Cancellare photo. Most of what I know came from Peter.

    Jack

    On minor correction. I did not purchase the contact print from Life. I forget the name of the photo agency [in storage in USA] then connected to parent company of Life. This agency refused to give me a contact print from the original. They said they could provide me a 'standard' copy, they send anyone. It would be cropped and multi generations removed from the original [and who knows what else]. I worked on this for a year and finally found a sympathetic person inside the organization willing to break the rules and risk their job. They charged me the standard fee [for the standard photo [which they had prepared in advance] BUT did me/us the favor of taking the original large format negative and making a contact print for me and sending it; mailing it not from the organization, but from another location. It is not easy to get what the keepers of the Big Lie do not want known or seen. 

    Jack is correct to having worked hard, but reporting to me that he could discern nothing he could make a definitive comment upon. He said he thought the apparent legs seen were the inverted shadow of the crotch of the tree. Tom later confirmed that and found two figures deep in the shadow of the tree - nothing to do with the light and dark patterns that can be seen by the naked eye in the photo. 

    I still have more about the photo from Tom and am working to get yet more. This is delicate work and pardon me for not involving you - you, after all, did try to stop me doing so [or complicating matters] with Walt Brown. A certain level of trust and a lot of patience is needed in this field. 

    Quote: "...Jack is correct to having worked hard, but reporting to me that he could discern nothing he could make a definitive comment upon. He said he thought the apparent legs seen were the inverted shadow of the crotch of the tree. Tom later confirmed that and found two figures deep in the shadow of the tree - nothing to do with the light and dark patterns that can be seen by the naked eye in the photo. ...".

    Pete I am not going into a long debate about the south knoll photo. However, the record must be cleared. I was the one who told you and Jim about the fork in the tree and that it was not the legs of a person. (1990) (.. this can be confirmed todat by looking at the photo that Bernice posted the other day, which was given to Barnard Finisterwald someyears ago. I drew that picture for Barnard Finisterwald Jr. in 1981 and drew another for Gary Shaw in 1979. AND I drew another one for the HSCA and previous old Church Committee around 1974 or 75. The FBI also had a drawn picture, by me, of where I said Sergio and I were standing and that was drawn at Buna Vista, Colorado in 1964.

    The above quote again leaves a sour taste in my mouth as to the facts behind that damn Cancellare photo. Why didn't you tell Jack at the time that I had said the alleged legs seen in the photo were not legs, but the shadow of the tree fork. I had went over that with you many times before I ever knew of Jack White, or Tom Wilson. I said and have always said that we were hidden in the shadows and if we could find a good photo or negative of that area then perhaps we could prove it. I referenced Gary Shaw's book COVER-UP copyrighted 1976; page 126 and pointed out the picture in question as an example of an area that needed further work and investigation and said that it would go a long way in proving, "conspiracy".

    This is but one of many examples of how facts become interwoven with someone else's preconceive ideas and speculations of how they want. things to be or not to be. Later, the tree fork shadow was used to discredit me because it was said that I said the fork shadow was the legs of a person. I never said that. But the damage had been done.... the jury had returned their verdict and the matter went nowhere.

    As to me stopping Walt from releasing my personal detailed family information to the research community, and to you... well I told you. "... I was not going to see my family's information spread around and thrown out there into the public domain for all to speculate on, as to what it really meant in reference to JFK and the TEXAS CLAN. I was not going to let it be twisted around to fit into someone's preconceived ideas about JFK and bring my family into that mess. Jay Harrison was a close friend long before I met you. I told Walt ,..NOT to release my information that Jay Harrison had obtained on me from me and others to anyone. It was not personally meant to be against you. However, by your tone I think you took it that way. Anyway, enough of this. You mentioned trust. Well I have waited over 15 years for you and Tom Wilson to get it together... but both of you were so damn secret and paranoid with your information, that nothing came of the south knoll photo findings. So if you are going to quote and slant, then get it right. I still see you as a friend and working colleague, although at times I have referenced you as my, "Radical Friend". I do not care about the photo, or if you ever get the confirmations or info from anyone.

    Why do you think after all these years, that that photo has been such an embarrassment to the Federal Government? Why has it been locked away and the facts thereof sealed? Why has the details behind its existence been keep from the research community for all these years? Care to address that question ? Best to you my friend. Tosh

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